tv The Stream 2019 Ep 143 Al Jazeera September 6, 2019 5:32pm-6:01pm +03
over what is illegal so this cleaning is continuing rape torture imprisonment people just coming out and really really we demand our right to self-determination 9069 indonesia and we are called to pretoria we call actually do a choice that is why we don't talk lame that you know new your agreement 66 new you know them if you say you know. we're number one bringing the international community out today we have a story that as you have so goes pathan many many decades you any please jump in here because what that he is saying is that we don't even belong to indonesia here you have no claim over us this is the root of the question. here i think if you want to look at the beach what i think is simplifying the issue is just boxing it to a an issue of human rights violations there are many structural issues that have been
happening in part one and that has led to the sense factions and grievances that many have feeling to this day i think. the process creation process is not yet the process is not finished yet and there are many things that the central government should have done better to integrate the pup once more into the society but i would i don't understand when i'm saying is yes you get to teach me a lot of things today as well i don't understand what integration means in the context of indonesia and the west papuan region can you give us an example. yes but what ben you mentioned before about the new york. 69 basically that gave granted it only shows. that the police part of indonesia and.
not us it was a large part of indonesia you are wrong it is recognized by no. means $9.00 to $60.00 by solution friend who was our only took the not united nation only north africa cut again country rejected your claim there by the african so he were hearing but then again you have come to any and this is a perfect example of why there is a dispute internees here right now because we're hearing the claim when the counter growth problem i was i was just very curious if you could give me one example and getting out quickly about what you meant by integration. yes. become a became part of leisure then there's a problem with. building more of one problem the other problems that that's happening here but it's not just because of the way current mishandles about the issue here but it's also due to
a mission of this well and the issue of lack of prosperity issue of. not not very good good governance there in public what we could actually buy the pub on themselves so get it's a very complex issues and populous a truly has a special autonomy granted to them which is not enjoyed by and by and that presents . basically the special autonomy grants once great people it is for example are only public ones can one for office in what but also it can also run for office in other provinces even for the highest position if you. want to and so we mostly don't know. how many people you've got i missed last year . almost half of the 1000 been killed and it is still autonomy what you're talking about there. yes. i
just thought it was not a bad government can i just say. you know cycle of violence i mean if you're on it absolutely anybody got any i'm just going to ask you for these last forever any embedded aisle but also from polls from i've picked a whole tight for a 2nd to what you want to take a victory see trying to get in there and i want to bring you in a couple of comments here because there are voices that people online are telling us that we're not hearing and that is because government and acted shut down data for the most part of internet data and so it's been hard to get those voices out this is what one person on twitter says he says this means that we are able to verify facts it means there was a chance of more fake news getting out of hand indonesia handled this all wrong all because they were desperate for control so that's one person's perspective but then news broke just today this from stephen who says intern egypt has partially lifted
an internet blackout so we can see that they are and this of course was on data that's what's being reported victor you are a journalist based there and the west papuan region talked to us about what people there felt and what voices we're not hearing because of this blackout. i want to talk about. a lot of this but what it. means under. which you are going to go i mean. you know the. internet in which. we. see. for our experience when the internet. we cannot reply.
any information. this is a problem for us is not only to prepare him but also because we are based in an online. so what. people say than to do this i think is very true. so when we. were in america before. the fall of the intervention. of the government and rick we want to you know we were working pretty hard to do a little angel. because you know no more. media. publish this story which probably is only some media like us. but it's very hard ok to be honest i think it's really. ok not only to be united but also to work.
for the news. let me just move on a little bit i want to show our audience benny's twitter page and the 20 tried a profile he calls himself a west point independence leader this is really important in the context of this conversation because after this violence. complaints about discrimination betty you've been asking and pushing for the independence of west papuan region for a very long time does this latest series of protests does that mean that you're closer to independence than ever before. i'm confident that this is the time to you know change now because you know a world is finding out wall in watching what happened and what happening because the last 50 years in and he said do not least i'm honest the international rescue and the international peace brigade so that's right now world is finding out
because. because indonesia stigmatise my people that monkey i think that sentiment collectively come out peacefully last 2 weeks then what happened indonesia start shooting day i 6 people were killed by indonesian military and police that is what happening there is also the militia groups are created by reid and tell himself because we don't i was in east timor he said well crime wanted by united nation now east are talking personally attacking me and him and this is general so we let's talk about the situation in response bring the peace only to bring the peace people people always pop what if any anyhow that i could just set our arses to talk about in a similar land to his security minister let me to share with our audience one of the most recent things that he said that was a great importance to the state have
a look. gov order more of them to vote for. your money the popular police chief bans demonstrations that will lead to anarchy and individuals or organizations a prohibited from carrying out or spreading separatism or expressing opinions in public and violations that will cause separatism no one saw me talk i'm going to. have to look up would be there is no nation in this world that doesn't have an issue with separatism it's inevitable there will always be a group in a country that holds sentiments different from the majority of the people it also happens in indonesia and not just here in papua it could be anywhere else that is exactly why we must fight and neutralize any bob war any of the feeling it into these if her appetite for a referendum would you say there is one. you don't for some so i can feel. but barely babies pain when it talked about the racial slur and i think this is
a pain that some not only felt by the ones but the whole ignitions i mean there's so many supports him sympathy expressed the words well if you know no i'm sorry i'm sorry but. yeah. sorry allow me to think i said i had to finish my thought and then you can interject but he finished ok but die 1st ethnic groups doesn't mean that it cannot live in harmony it's just what what we need is a political process so i mean. the 1st groups of people on the. ground can co-exist peacefully and i think this is what this is the cause that we need to push for more dialogue more. and eventually better a common ground you know and i think the common ground for me and he is very clear that we both want the best for the ones we want prosperity for the public ones we want. you know democracy for public ones and i think the way to do that is to list
them. and for me the problem now is really no value occupied our country that's killing us that's why you are calling your government calling you want yeah nor the killing just me but i'd like to know. if you're going to quote you know it's not just that there is not there's a great of a trade after all due to the kennedy document but a bit. better also. we're trying to. give a pause in the conversation 70 can get in the lake i have so i hear both of your perspectives i want to bring this in this from twitter says if indonesia allowed to vote on their freedom it could in the protests tomorrow but jakarta know is that was popular would immediately vote to have their freedom back so keeping that in my i want to play a video comment from someone who sent us his start this is a victor is an international spokesperson the national committee for west papua and
her stake. was popular is lost on me was a fig what was pup was still fighting for the write offs of intimidation from all the alleys and indonesia we have been treated like animal discrimination is still going on and we have become a minority in our own learn that it's white people of us but we are still continuing still fighting for the right course of the commission saw we did in the nation to bring the case of us puppet bear to the united nation when it unite the nation for fighting. in what does the best solution for the people of this popular and here the daughter of the 4th president of indonesia a. man what he do you think his legacy had high approval ratings in this region do you think that legacy is carrying on and what should happen to make that happen. well i think what it was before that we should push for more dialogue peaceful dialogue and along with that we should also improve service delivery but once one
of the problems in power is actually there is this cycle of violence that's happening now it's not just done by. somebody treated like just there but also done by the armed groups peer the independence movement there were cases in which a many civilians were killed and also cases of violence between. the and we must now also we must understand also we try to understand. also need to understand that part what is very diapers so yet i cannot speak on tribal groups here and they have their own the only any customs and they actually cannot speak and has let the caring heart of a sudden. very yes sorry to her given us insight into a very complicated situation in west papua off and we really appreciate you helping us understand the story
a modern and open minded woman who feels ethiopia is poised to develop a map of al-jazeera goes on a journey with the 1st woman appointed to the position of chief justice in ethiopia i knew that this is going to be able to go to stand completely expect to have to be perfect troops in viewpoints are much more of a want to be. in my ethiopia on al-jazeera. the big stories generate fountains of headlines it seems that much the media is still
struggling with how to deal with it with different angles from different perspectives and you hold a lawyer to separate the spin from the facts. go to the misinformation from journalism how careful must be your words but some tough stuff has to be said for some critics have to be listening post on out 0. zimbabwe's founding leader robert mugabe has died we look at his rise to power and controversial leadership. fully back to boil watching al-jazeera live from doha also coming up another bruising day ahead for the british prime minister the bell blocking a no deal breaks it will likely be approved and
a court is set to rule on his plan to suspend parliament's came dorrian weekends after battering the u.s. east coast and causing widespread destruction across the bahamas and we'll be live in hong kong where thousands of protesters have gathered at a metro station that was stormed by police last march. thank you for joining us african leaders are paying their respects to zimbabwe's founding leader robert mugabe who has died at the age of 95 had been suffering from poor health and was being treated in singapore robert mugabe served as both prime minister and president of zimbabwe for almost 40 years before being deposed in a military coup in 2017 zimbabwe's president amisom non-god what pay tribute on twitter saying comrade mugabe was an icon of liberation a pan african is who dedicated his life to the emancipation and empowerment of his
people his contribution to the history of our nation and continent will never be forgotten may his soul rest in eternal peace zambian president ed wrote on twitter i'm saddened at the passing of a pan african is stands in bobby's founding father comrade robert mugabe will be remembered for his fight for africa's liberation and fearlessly defending the continent his grace in the annals of africa's history is assured we mourn with zimbabwe now south africa's ruling party the a.n.c. released a statement it says the african national congress mourns the passing of brother comrade president robert mugabe who passes away having devoted his life to the service of his country and its people we mourn with you the passing of a friend statesman leader revolutionary. with more from johannesburg. a few weeks ago as the barbers government issued a statement and say that robert mugabe was in singapore for longer than usual there
was a scientist many zimbabweans that something is wrong when his body returns from singapore likely in a couple of days people get an idea of when the funeral is going to be leaders and the readings on a pay party say mcgarvey was the founder of zimbabwe they're going to give him a respectful sendoff and a state funeral order probably happen is when the body gets back to zimbabwe it will lie in state for a couple of days and might even do some tours across the country especially his home village in after that period at the national heroes acre in the capital harare that's where a lot of people who fought in the liberation war who fought in the water in white minority rule have been buried his gravesite is marked number one a sign officials say is a sign of respect we also expecting several african leaders to attend the funeral remember in africa they were seen mainly as a liberator they say he helped end white minority rule he helped many other
countries gain independence and he was brave enough to take land from white a white minority and give it to black people he's a hero to some people and he's a villain for frustrated zimbabweans many of them who are now living outside the country many of them economic migrants many of them who are undocumented say they blame him and his rulings on it here party for ruining what was once a prosperous country but his supporters say that they will give mugabe a huge send of in a couple of days and will always be remembered as the founding father of zimbabwe and here is there is hard abdel-hamid now with more on robert mugabe's life and legacy. deliberate to turn into a tyrant the man who destroyed a promising country through his determination to cling onto power. doored by some but indian despised by many in zimbabwe of the widely admired across africa as
a hero who fought colonialism and stood up to the west. 965 rhodesia and mrs white settlers declare independence from britain an event that they find robert mugabe's life and still holds his country. the black majority resisted races in the cities and out in the countryside where a vicious bush war raged for years. robert mugabe a teacher turned activist emerged from prison as an articulate leader of the independence struggle we started the war in order to give our country. we have a country they did get their country at lancaster house in london in 1979. and when zimbabwe celebrated independence mugabe the overwhelming winner of elections was in power. and soon showing revival liberation fighters what he'd do
to keep it. in the early eighty's the opposition crushed thousands killed in ethnic massacres atrocities that were barely noticed abroad. but there was also much to add my racial reconciliation education and health for millions of zimbabweans although later the economy declined and the invasions of white farms in the year 2000 were turning point this time the world did notice. people said that this was going to happen it was going to turn into a bloodbath turn into another congress maybe this is it we're going to have to get out. it was a destructive process but they said he was correcting an old injustice and in many ways still fighting the old colonial power. that land is ours we give it to whom we please it's not the business of britain you see to tell us who to give land they do
not wear that those who are given members of my by my party is irrelevant to britain. by now opposition was growing despite murder and many many zimbabwe seemed ready to throw mugabe out they had a new hero morgan chang right who said robert mugabe's earlier cheve man's will always be overshadowed by the years of oppression. do we portray you as the great liberator or do we portray you as somebody who has betrayed the liberation that he fought for. i think the latter will prevail the 2 rivals ended up in government together although mugabe made sure he kept the real power and chunky violator returned to a position where he would eventually die becoming is constantly sharing how hypocritical the west is and africa loves that and for that reason and i think he will be judged alternately as being
a more important figure in africa than simply this party is this part he's a dictator he's a tyrant he's any word you want to threaten but it's something more than that he says he's the wrong messenger with the right message. by now his wife grace 41 years his junior had emerged as a political player who got be well into his ninety's seem determined to go on and all. those you know. that the robert mugabe's still here. but not as strong as he thought in the cities anger boiled over a new generation demanded mugabe go it's time for you to resign it's time for you to step down. in the end it was the army that pushed him where he the point grace as his successor
a former colleague and then leave rival of grace's emerson women took over it was more palace couldn't revolution although the joy mirrored that of zimbabwe's original revolution 37 years earlier who got the retreated to his mansion bitter to the last we don't deserve please we don't deserve it but please tell me. the real tragedy robert mugabe could never bear da da or of his country enjoying a 2nd freedom from his ruinous grip. i let's now speak to ben payton who's an independence or t.g. consultant specializing in south africa he joins us live from london very good to have you with us on al-jazeera robert mugabe was admired by many africans for daring to challenge western dominance how will he be remembered beyond africa. i think overwhelmingly his legacy will be negative especially outside of africa.
let's remember the under his 37 years in power the country faced a totally devastating economic situation which was to a large extent his own doing in terms of the way that he destroyed confidence in the economy through through seizing the white owned farms in the early 2000 and he'll certainly remember be remembered as someone who treated his political opponents with great brutality right from the start of his of his reign or even before he acted with total ruthlessness towards anyone who opposed him and even today in zimbabwe the very serious economic situation the that we currently see is to a large extent his legacy so despite the fact that he'll always be treated with with some measure of respect for what he did during the liberation struggle overwhelmingly his legacy is is not going to be a positive one here and i do want to talk about his economic legacy a bit more with the i want to ask you 1st about his relationship with the
zimbabwe's one time colonial rule of britain he reviled britain in public but was it the case in private think. no i think on the contrary he he admired britain in many ways he seemed to enjoy spending time in britain up until the late ninety's when relations soured beyond repair and really after the the line seizures began in in the 2000 britain was a convenient bogeyman for him he was he was constantly talking to the supposed that threat of a return to colonial rule over british invasion which was for him a convenient way of dividing people of justifying his land seizures and distracting the population from from what was going on yeah let's talk a bit more now about his economic legacy then as in bob he was once known of course as a breadbasket of africa reforms have been undertaken by the current president emerson one god but the country still suffering from inflation do you think zimbabwe can
recover from its political and economic goals what is it going to take basically for zimbabwe to recover economically i think if you look at the current economic situation it's the worst that it has been in in several years and some people are even expressing the star from the car but really the current situation is the result of the zanu p.f. government losing all confidence from investors and from the internet what about the sanctions still under sanctions to blame as well. sanctions sanctions are to blame to an extent but the was i think there was a realistic chance of of the international community warming up to the new government and. the chances of that was scuppered to a large extent by the violent reaction to the to the 2800.