tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg February 2, 2016 10:00pm-11:01pm EST
>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose" charlie: senator bernie sanders is here. he is, as you know, a candidate for the democratic candidate for president. he refers to himself as a democratic socialist. former secretary of state hillary clinton currently leads him in the polls but sanders has continued to draw huge crowds. he and clinton spoke at the jefferson-jackson dinner on sunday in iowa. bernie: today some are trying to rewrite history by saying they
voted for one anti-gay law to stop something worse. that's not the occasion and let me be clear about the current trade deal we are debating in congress, the transpacific partnership. that agreement is not now nor has it ever been the gold standard of trade agreements. it gives me no joy to tell you that much of what i predicted about iraq turned out to be right. doesn't give me any joy at all. but that was a tough vote. i came to that fork in the road and i took the right road even though it was not popular at that time. i will not abandon any segment of american society, whether you're gay or black or latino, poor working class. just because it is politically
expedient at a given time. charles: one line of attack against secretary clinton is that he's come late to some of the policies he's supported. i'm pleased to welcome senator sanders to this table for the first time. clearly that was a portrait of hillary clinton, even in terms of some of the words she's used. bernie: i have known hillary clinton for 25 years. i have enormous respect for her. she's a friend. but when you're running for president of the united states, it's important to differentiate the differences between the candidates and there are real differences between hillary clinton and myself. i have been extremely consistent on my views for many, many years. t.p.p., the transpacific partnership. some people like it, some don't. charlie: she described it as a gold standard. bernie: she did and i'm glad that years after i came out against it she said no, i think it's a bad idea in terms of the
keystone pipeline, i am extremely worried, along with all of the scientists who have studied this issue, that climate change is already causing devastating problems and it's only going to get worse unless we are bold about transforming our energy system. if you're going to do that, you don't give one second's thought to supporting the keystone pipeline, which is excavating and transporting some of the dirtiest fossil fuel on earth. i opposed that from the beginning. charlie: and she? bernie: she finally came around and i'm glad. now she's in opposition to the keystone pipeline in terms of wall street, you're looking at a guy who helped lead the opposition to the deregulation of wall street. wall street spent $5 billion over a 10-year period to tell us what a great idea it would be if commercial banks and investor
banks and large insurance companies would merge. i never believed it and i believed that we need to break up these large financial institutions. i'm glad that over a period of time hillary clinton has come up with some ideas about how you deal with wall street but frankly they don't go as far as they should. when you have banks with such economic and political power. the six largest financial institutions with the equivalency of 60% of the g.d.p. in my view, they ought to be broken up. charlie: anything else that she ought to change on that she hasn't changed on yet? bernie: a month, two months ago i came out against private corporations running prisons and i understand now she's come out against that as well. uh, the issue is to understand
what are the most important problems facing our country. and they are huge. to me, it comes down to the fact that it's not just income and wealth inequality. it is not only corporate control over the media. it is not only the fact that we have more people in jail than any other country on earth. it is not only that we have a campaign finance system which is corrupt. the real issue is who's going to stand up to all of that? who's going to take on the corporate interests and wall street and try to create a government that works for all the people in this country rather than a small number of billionaires? that's the issue. and if people think hillary clinton is that candidate, they should vote for her. charlie: they think she will stand up to what you call those establishment interests they should vote for her. if they think you will stand taller --
bernie: any look at my life's work, any look at what my agenda today suggests there is one candidate in this race who is in fact prepared to stand up to the billionaire class, to stand up to wall street, corporate america, the big-money interests who have been running a rigged economy and a corrupt campaign finance system. now, people are satisfied with the establishment politics, you have a candidate. if you want real change, i'm the candidate. charlie: everybody somehow is attracted to the requested are -- idea or wanting to debate the idea of you as a socialist or democratic socialist. so you tell us what you mean or does it simply mean you're more liberal and more progressive than other democrats? bernie: good question. let me answer it in a couple of ways. first part, to demystify the
word "socialist." we have a really strong socialist senior program. it's called social security. how's that? has gone a long way to lowering poverty among seniors since roosevelt introduced it. we have well over 50 million people who are on social security. lyndon johnson introduced a very strong socialist-type program in the 1960's, called medicare. we have a beautiful national parks system owned by the people of the united states. we have a postal service owned by the people. the local library, the fire department, it is owned by the people. so we have many socialist programs in the united states. charlie: socialist is defined as government ownership. bernie: but that is -- we the government owns and the people owns all of those government institutions. social security is a government program, medicare is a government program. charlie: money used for the so-called entitlement programs.
bernie: i would not call them entitlement programs. charlie: that's what they're called. you know that. bernie: second, i think there are countries around the world we can learn from who do a lot better job at protecting their people than we do. countries in norway, scandinavia. first of all they guarantee health care to all of their people as a right. in fact, every other major country on earth guarantees health care to all people as a right and much more cost effectively than we do here. charlie: would a single-payer system do that for you? bernie: yes, you have a medicare program. let's expand it to everybody. in terms of issues like childhood poverty. shamefully we have one of the
highest rates of any major country on earth. countries which have had socialist democratic governments have a much lower rate of childcare poverty. they have a much better childcare system. many countries around the world should be doing what we do right now, understanding that -- we should have free tuition at public colleges and uniforms. those and many other ideas. income and wealth inequality. many countries around the world say you can't continue to have huge tax breaks for the rich. charlie: some would say it is freedom, it is capitalism and
democratic capitalism that has enabled america to prosper. would you disagree with that? bernie: sure. charlie: you would? we would have been better off if we didn't have democratic capitalism? bernie: here's the point. capitalism plays a very important role. charlie: capitalism flourishes in a lot of country that is call themselves democratic socialist. bernie: exactly. what is the difference between what they're doing and what we're doing? when you're talking about prospering in america, let me break the bad news for you. most people in america today are not prospering. for 40 years, the middle class of this country has been disappearing. there are tens of millions working longer hours, for lower wages. people on top are doing phenomenally well. most others are not. charlie: which brings us to an interesting point. i'll come back to your history and how you came to believe what you believe in but just going to the sense of why and how you would create more income equality. we talk about income inequality and we talk about what is happened to the middle class.
a lot of people who don't call themselves democratic socialists talk about that all the time. joe biden one of them. bernie: joe biden is a good friend of mine. we're dealing with the issue of income equality. real unemployment today as opposed to official unemployment, including those who have given up working for -- looking for work and are working part time is 10%. but if you include those who give up looking for work, it's 10%. african-american youth unemployment for high school graduates is 51%. unemployed and underemployed. charlie: and i would assume that's unacceptable to every american. bernie: and we have more people in jail than any other country
so we have normal ideas and the idea is that maybe we should invest in ideas and education for our young people rather than jails and incarceration. keep an eye on kids to -- so they're not dropping out of school. we need to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure, roads, bridges, rail, air ports, levees and dams, water systems. charlie: that doesn't require you to be a socialist to recommend that or people like larry summers recommend that. bernie: i don't think larry summers recommends that -- charlie: he's talked a lot about we have to spend significantly more money for the infrastructure. in fact, that was part of the stimulus program or not? bernie: there was money that went into that. nowhere near enough. charlie: but nobody said that
was socialism. bernie: let me just tell you what we mean by it. charlie: i'm the first person trying to argue against the idea that you're a socialist. bernie: if the idea is the government should take over every mom and pop grocery store, no. if i believe that every person in america is entitled to health care, yes, i do. charlie: the state should not control your life. that the state ought to be the orbiter of everything in life? bernie: of course not. charlie: there are those, when they see the word bernie sanders, socialist, that's the world he wants. bernie: when you have a middle class declining, we need to create millions of jobs rebuilding our infrastructure. we need to make public colleges and universities tuition-free. raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. charlie: they've done that in some cities already.
bernie: that's right. equal pay for women workers. we need to bring about criminal justice reform. we need to create jobs -- maybe i'm not radical enough. charlie: i'm trying to argue that a lot of people believe that there are too many people in jail, too many coming out and not having a place to go and they're back in jail. there are a whole lot of people who believe that the first step toward income inequality or to eliminate income inequality is the $15 an hour minimum wage. i'm just saying these are not radical ideas. bernie: that's right, they're not. i was just talking to a guy today. and he said i went to the city university of new york 50 years ago and you know what i paid for tuition? $58 a term. so the idea of making public
colleges and universities tuition-free, when it exists in germany and many other countries, used to exist in the united states, is not a radical idea but in the context of politics today in america, it is a radical idea. the result of the supreme court decision on citizens united is a corrupt system essentially and allows billionaires to buy election. i believe not only we should overturn citizens unit and would no nominee of mine on the supreme court will get that nomination unless they -- charlie: hillary clinton against citizens united? bernie: and i believe that we need to not only overturn citizens united, we need to move to public funding of election so that working-class people around this country who want to
it came to how many trillions of dollars, i've forgotten. bernie: 18. i remember. charlie: yes, you do. were they right? bernie: no, of course not. that was "the wall street journal." charlie: most things are reporting things very differently -- bernie: of the $18 trillion that they talked about, 15 trillion were in health care. they said sanders is proposing a medicare for all single-pair program that's going to cost approximately $15 trillion over a 10-year period. you would not be paying private health insurance at all. you might be paying more in taxes but and you your employer would not be paying any private health insurance and virtually every study done suggests that a
single payer system is far more coast effective than the dysfunctional system we have right now dominated by private insurance companies. we save money. they pointed out that i wanted to spend a trillion dollars rebuilding the infrastructure. we pay for that by eliminating tax breaks for corporations in offshore accounts. we do want to see public colleges and universities tuition-free. we pay for that based on a tax on wall street space. they got it wrong on the health care issue. charlie: would you reduce the corporate income tax? bernie: no. charlie: even if you could eliminate some of the deductions would you reduce the rate? bernie: no. i don't want to say yes or no but 50 years ago -- in 1952, sorry, corporations were paying over 30% of the taxes to the federal government. today they're paying around 10%. you have a number of major corporations on a given year pay zero federal income tax. charlie: that's because of all
the deductions. bernie: all of the loopholes. charlie: fair enough. bernie: and we have to eliminate those loopholes. that's what my legislation does. charlie: biggest misconception about you? bernie: that i'm a grumpy guy. you can see i'm a very pleasant, happy fellow. charlie: i'm the one who did a "60 minutes" profile on larry david. you like that, the idea of what larry did and the motion -- notion of sort of being in the public arena now, as you are in a much more visible way and from "saturday night live" to other programs. it's kind of nice. bernie: its larry david's tv show was hysterically funny. i'm not a great fan of tv, i have to tell you but i thought he was very funny. charlie: take a look. here it is. >> how would you each different yourself from the obama administration? >> for me, i'm an outsider. i'm the only candidate up here
who's not a billionaire. i don't have a super pac. i don't even have a backpack. i carry my stuff around loose in my arms. i own one pair of underwear, that's it. some of these billionaires, they got three, four pairs. and i don't have a dryer. i have to put my clothes on the radiator. so who do you want as president? one of these washington insiders or a guy who has one pair of clean underwear that he dries on a radiator? [applause] check it out. it's a mess. charlie: you love that. bernie: that was very funny. very good. he is very good. charlie: so you're elected president.
the first five things you want to do? first day in office, first 100 days? bernie: what we're going to do is bring forth a series of very progressive legislation. and by the way, if i am elected president, it will mean that there is a very significant increase in voter turnout. it will mean that it is likely the republicans will not be controlling the senate and maybe not even controlling the house. that's what a large turnout will do. turnouts are big, republicans lose and democrats win. we bring out a progressive agenda. we are going to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. we are going to demand that the wealthy and large corporations start paying their fair share of taxes. charlie: from what to what? bernie: we will have a tax on wall street speculation. which is on our website. we will do away with the loophole that allows corporations to stash their money tax-free in the cayman islands. we will have a more progressive special income tax.
we will have legislation that makes public colleges and universities tuition-free. we will also deal very aggressively with climate change and with campaign finance. those are some of the areas i would initially focus on. charlie: what's the lesson you've learned in this campaign so far? bernie: it's very hard to talk about issues with the media that sees politics as a soap opera and entertainment. and it's pretty hard. charlie: this is a rare experience for you? bernie: absolutely. to be on a show for 40 minutes to talk about real issues is very hard. but media -- and there are many exceptions to this i don't want to make a blanket criticism but by and large, it's the soap opera of what happened today. did somebody say something dumb. did chris christie got thrown
off the quiet car on amtrak the other day. marco rubio throw a football that hit somebody? the american middle class for 40 years has been disappearing. 29 million americans have no health insurance. we have income wealth and inequality and the world's future is being harm had by climate change. you think we aught to be talking about those issues? charlie: what about the system has created in silicon valley, the leaders? the leaders in the world of technology, which is a huge contributor to an economy of the future. should we be talking about the level of entrepreneurship and what incentives there are for people to build businesses and create jobs and what aptitude should they be working in. should we be talking about the
idea of freedom and individual freedom? bernie: let's talk of an individual freedom. you're looking at a united states former congressman and senator. i voted against the u.s.a. patriot act. because i was very concerned about the power we were giving the government and in addition, corporate america to know every damn thing about your life. i don't feel comfortable that every phone call you make is being tracked some place. there are corporations that know more about you than you think that they know. public policy, the explosion in technology. to answer your question, is there a lot in this country that is fantastic that a lot of the world is looking for? of course. but we should also understand that there's something wrong with 40% of african-american
kids in america who are living in poverty and almost all of the new income and wealth is to the people on top. charlie: the challenge is how do we maximize what is great about america, when it's put in its place and the remarkable time since the dawning of this country. what's remarkable about it and at the same time what parts of it enable too many people to be in poverty, too many people to be in prison. too many people not to have medical care and too many people not to be able to see that their kids have a better opportunity than they had to buy into, to engage in the american dream? bernie: right. in other words, look, what any sensible proposition is you look at what we're doing well. we're doing a lot well. you look at what we are not doing well and there's a lot we are not doing well and you try to figure out how to make it better. charlie: that's not the debate
that's taken place on the campaign trail so far. bernie: the media takes to interest in that debate. what the media is more interested in, how much money did you raise and what's the latest poll? did you slip on a banana peel, say something stupid? that's kind of what the media is interested in but you're right. this country does do a lot we should be proud of and build on. it's not just different ideas out there. there is a power structure in america, which is based on greed and these guys have it. it's not like sitting down and saying hey, guys, how do we create a better economy? i don't think that's their goal. they have enormous power and wealth. they want more power, more wealth and they're willing to step on a whole lot of middle class and working class people in order to get more. that's where we are. charlie: we do share this belief, and i'm not sure we differ on a lot of things. we share this belief, the idea
that the middle class has been -- and i come from the middle class -- has been threatened. bernie: no, not threatened. it has been virtually destroyed over the last 40 years. and let's be honest. charlie: 40 years goes back to 197 -- bernie: 1973 i think was the point we looked at. the question we have to ask ourselves, charlie, a simple question, there's been an explosion of technology, right? we all produce a lot more. the television studio a lot different than it was 30 years ago. you can do incredible things. why is it that with all the increases in technology productivity, most people in this country are working more hours for lower wages? i'm not asking you. i'm not interviewing you. but is it moral? look at what pope francis is saying. is it moral that so many have so little and so few have so much?
charlie: she is a former first lady, former senator from new york, and former united states secretary of state. now hillary clinton is running for president. the democratic front runner sat down with me in washington, d.c. she talked about her plans to fight isis and remove bashar al-assad. the challenges of dealing with russia, with china, and the problem of climate change, and the role of the united states in a rapidly changing world. from a balcony overlooking the white house, she told me how she would like to fix the dysfunction in washington, and what being president is about. there is the seat of power in america, the white house. pennsylvania avenue, down the road. they seem to be in conflict. there seems to be gridlock. can hillary clinton make a difference? barack obama thought he could. and he didn't.
hillary clinton: well -- charlie: it takes two to tango. hillary clinton: he got a lot done, too, despite -- charlie: how can you do it? hillary clinton: get at it every day. charlie: it's not enough. hillary clinton: it starts with that, it starts with nurturing relationships. when i was first lady, when i was a senator or secretary of state, i worked across the aisle all the time. sometimes there was only one thing that i could find to work with somebody on, because everything else we were at odds. charlie: so you say to the new speaker of the house, hillary clinton will be someone you can deal with. i'm prepared to reach out to you. hillary clinton: right, and i will do anything to find common ground, but i will also stand my ground. there are some things that are not good for the country. i will not give in on those. but there is a lot of room to find common ground. charlie: but you know a lot of people think the biggest problem for america is washington.
and that is part reflected in the politics we see. hillary clinton: that's true. but look at the way our founders set it up. they set up the separation of powers, and they made it really difficult to get things done. some years, it is really hard. we are in one of these periods where we have a minority in the other party that does not believe in reaching consensus. charlie: that's not the way to do it. hillary clinton: part of what you have to do is make it clear to everyone else who is in the party that there is room for negotiation. those who do not even believe in the legislative process, because they think they arrived with all the answers, and there's nothing they can learn -- maybe there is some ground. i worked with tom delay on reforming the adoption system. even though we were politically opposite, he cared a lot about foster kids. he and his wife had taken them
in. i knew that, i cared about them, so we found common ground. that is just a 24/7 effort. i will put whatever it takes into doing it. charlie: waiting for the plane to come down from new york, a nice lady said to me, where are you going? i said, i'm going to talk to hillary clinton. she said, ask her this one question for me. what can i do to make a difference? that is what she said. you must a finding that as you go. i would think my running for president, you have done this before as tough as it is and sleepless as it is, you have a chance to touch base with the width and breadth of the country and get a sense of how they aspire for a better life. hillary clinton: there's something intimate and personal about the encounters you have when you are running for office. sometimes, you have only 30 or 60 seconds, people look into your eyes and say, i need help.
my son is a drug addict, and i am taking care of his daughter. we have to have more help. or young men i meet who says, and taking care of my mother with alzheimer's, i can't quit my job but i can't afford a caregiver, so i take her to work. i hear these usually intimate stories. it gives not only a real texture to what i thinking about and what i'm proposing, but it makes it all real. there are real people doing the best they can out there. what can she do? maybe there is somebody she can help. maybe there's a child she can tutor. maybe there is a project to raise funds to send kids to college. maybe there's something she can do to contribute to the life that will be better for somebody else. i say in my speeches, and i know it sounds a little corny, you don't expect a presidential candidate to say we need more love and kindness in america,
but i'm saying it. i believe it. we have to stop demonizing each other. we have to stop with the anger, and the terrible sense of alienation and division that is stocking our country. we need to be kinder to one another. we need to put ourselves in each other's shoes and walk in them, if you can. being president is running the executive branch, doing foreign policy, working with congress, but it is also being a catalyst for people to feel that they can be their best selves, and that we need them. we are in this together. absolutely. charlie: this was the first major interview secretary clinton has granted sense the terror attacks in paris, and we began with that tragedy, and her strategy to defeat isis. thank you for doing this. it is great to see you. hillary clinton: great to see you, charlie. charlie: this is the first interview since paris. what is new? what did paris change for all of us? hillary clinton: i think it forced a conversation that is taking place, not only in our country and europe, but in many places across the world, about what are the opportunities and the dangers in this very complex
time we are living in. specifically, with respect to isis, i think it really has accelerated a discussion about how the world is going to deal with not only isis -- how to deny a territory -- but also with a whole network of radical jihadism, which has taken advantage of the arc of instability from north africa to south asia. finally, how are we going to protect ourselves, our friends, our partners, in a way in keeping with our openness, our values. i think it is really -- it has pushed all these discussions that you have in the situation room, and lots of places. now it is pushed into the open, and it is a matter of personal and political debate. ♪ charlie: ok, so, with respect to the new urgency, what should the united states do, and what you would you recommend we do?
hillary clinton: i gave a speech about this on the consul of foreign relations, i think it is important we look at it from a broader perspective. number one, we have to deny them territory with a multi national effort, and the united states must lead the effort. charlie: what does that mean? lead? hillary clinton: it means we have to do the heavy lifting, to get people to make contributions that they have to make, whether it be aircraft to fly air strikes against isis territory to go after leadership and economic infrastructure, or putting together the troops on the ground, how we get more equipment and support to the kurds who have been bearing the brunt of the fighting. how we do everything we can to get the iraqis not only to end -- stand up their army, but to begin to work with sunni tribal
leaders. charlie: what incentive would you offer to sunni leaders to get them to engage on the ground, so that with the addition of american airstrikes, you might wage an effective campaign in iraq and syria? hillary clinton: nothing beats what was tried last time, which is cash. [laughter] let's not turn our nose up at it. ask general petraeus, you recently talked with. and was very straightforward and said, look, we basically paid the tribal sheiks, and now we continue to do that across the border and in syria, to pull together a fighting force. it worked. it worked in part because of repulsion against the predecessor, al qaeda in iraq, the treatment of everybody at their hands. that also works because they were promised that they would have the autonomy and authority to make a lot of decisions within iraq, on their own behalf.
unfortunately, maliki and his views towards sectarianism slowly but surely undermined all of that. now you've got the sunni sheiks and fighters on the sidelines, or even worse, some of them making common cause with isis. charlie: which raises an interesting question, did we lose influence in the baghdad government? would it have made a difference in the behavior so the sunnis would not be so turned off by baghdad? hillary clinton: i certainly thought we should keep troops there. i advocated for that. the real problem was maliki. he would not give us a status of forces agreement, that would provide protections for american troops, that we have to expect anywhere in the world. despite our best efforts, despite trying to negotiate and bargain with him, other members of his government, even the
parliament, we were not able to reach the agreement. the prior administration, the bush administration, had set a date for us to withdraw. the absence of agreement, we had to withdraw. that is what he wanted. he made all kinds of promises to the administration. which he did not fulfill. charlie: was the absence of american troops -- did it help lead to the strengthening of isis? hillary clinton: i wouldn't go that far. i think it was the collapse of the internal agreements. our understanding was we had helped them build up a force that would respect sunnis, they would have a place in the iraqi army, that there would be a national guard created that would in effect protect the sunnis and give them a sense of autonomy, enabling them to protect themselves. of course, the kurds, with their
ongoing arguments over oil distribution and autonomy. so what maliki did -- he was the driving force -- he was purging the army of sunni officers, began to take a hard line against the kurds and their desire for more autonomy, and so i placed the blame, such as it can be placed, at maliki's feet. charlie: what should be a limit of our involvement? hillary clinton: we have to look at it from several perspectives. number one, if we are going to lead a multinational coalition, we are going to still have to take the lead in the air. that is our highest and best use. even with france picking up airstrikes, we are still carrying out the best majority of them. we also need to get special forces that the president has authorized into the arena as soon as possible, because they will be able to tell us what
more is needed. in particular, how do we have better targeting on the ground? we want to go after isis leadership, economic infrastructure -- how do we really know what we are targeting? charlie: the general petraeus said to me, that we should be embedding at the battalion level and not just special forces. hillary clinton: i couldn't tell whether he was meaning the iraqi army, if we ever get it stood up again, that is something we could look at. we had over 3000 american troops -- we have over 3000 american troops in iraq trying to do that, working to essentially undo the damage that maliki did, to the army trying to return it to what it was. their main mission is to train, assist, and enable. if down the road it appears we do get them up and willing to take the fight to mosul and areas in iraq, then there will be a role for americans to
perhaps be a part of advising those army units. we are a long way from that. from what i'm told, we don't even yet have confidence that we could put them back into the fight. at the same time, let's not forget what we were talking about earlier. we need to be building up a sunni force. that will have to operate on a parallel track to the army. charlie: but many people are saying, we have been talking about this for a while -- how do we get the sunnis involved? there is a new urgency and new emergency now. tell me how serious the threat of isis is, and what level do we decide, we will do anything we have to do to stop them? hillary clinton: i think we have to have as our objectives, their defeat. what is it you have to do to defeat them?
i think you have to fight them in their ground, fight them in the air, fight them on the ground and in cyberspace. it seems to me, there are people both currently serving and retired, like general petraeus, who know a lot of the players. we should be utilizing anyone who has that kind of personal contact. it is all relationship based. we need people to go over there, look into the eyes of the tribal leaders who say, you betrayed us and we say, no we didn't. when you have promises of continuing to pay sunni troops, continuing to have an integrated army -- we had promises. they were systematically broken. let's do it again right. you stood against al qaeda in iraq, because you saw the damage they were doing to your way of life, to your people, the oppressive and violent approach they took. now you are facing an even more barbaric enemy, which has more money and now controls territory. we need to get back in the game, and we need to help you do that. charlie: do we need to make coalition with russia to do this? hillary clinton: first of all, i think we need to build a
coalition of europeans and arab states. charlie: don't we have that now? and don't we see market is a -- seeing more participation by the british in terms of proposals to their parliament, and the french are clearly energized. hillary clinton: the french are energized. the brits are waiting for whether they can be. we have a number of european allies who are flying. the arabs have pulled back and we need to get them reengaged. with respect to russia, i am not yet sure what exactly putin's objectives are. we know he has been bombing a lot of the opposition to assad. we have to operate on two tracks at one time on a lot of what we are doing. when it comes to russia, they have to understand that we are going to go forward with our multinational, multi-pronged approach. i still believe a no-fly zone is
important to try to provide safe havens on the ground. taking back the syrian turkish border will require turkish help. it will require the russians to be at least respectful of our efforts. we need to be engaged. we are engaged on a military to military level. we have deconflicted the airspace we are both in, so we are not making mistakes. but what they did, whether intentionally or unintentionally, invading turkish air space -- charlie: they did it on purpose? hillary clinton: i don't know, but they were on notice to stay back. you can make a mistake. but they got so close that a mistake was possible, or they just did not care. charlie: why did they do that? what is vladimir putin trying to say to the world? hillary clinton: i think this probably was not something that came down from the kremlin. they want to go after those
forces threatening assad, some of whom are near the turkish border. but by invading the airspace -- this is not the first time they came close to doing this. it showed a disregard for the perspective of others, most particularly the turks, that is troubling. i think they have been pushed back, and i think that we will be able to have a more realistic conversation with them, which i would urge. charlie: but isn't vladimir putin's interest clear, he wants to be relevant, he wants to be a player and be part of the decision-making, and he wants to say to the world, russia is important. and he has accomplished that. hillary clinton: he has certainly staked a claim, whether he has accomplished it or not is not clear. here is what also has to happen. one of those dual tracks there, charlie. we need to get over the false choice between going after
bashar al-assad or going after isis. charlie: everyone talks about that, how do you do both? hillary clinton: you do both by making it clear in bringing the russians in. they have paid a big price because of the bomb in the jet. they have lost people to isis. i think you say, look, it is not your active help or acquiescence in what you are going to do going after isis. that means you are going to have to pull back from the area while we go after their leadership and economic infrastructure. but if you want to be part of that, we would welcome you. you have a dog in this hunt now, because you are worrying what is happening to caucuses, isis spreading the ideology. at the same time, we have to fight the ideology. there has to be more willingness on the part of russia and iran,
to take a hard look at how we prioritize. right now, we are not going to see a military defeat of assad. it's not going to happen. it might have been possible a few years ago. it will not happen now. we will continue to see russia from the air, iran from the ground, where iranian soldiers are dying on behalf of assad. you will see them continuing to hold the territory they have and push back against opposition. part of what we have to do is say, you have to help us get to a political and diplomatic solution, and you have to either get out of the way or come on board with respect to isis. and we have to be very clear about that. it should be a full throated effort. charlie: and you have to convince assad that time is limited. hillary clinton: right. and there will be a transition. knowing the russians and the iranians, who have a lot invested in assad, if they in
their own minds they, quit bombing the people helping us fight isis, go ahead and put on a barrier. charlie: protect them. some people like to ask you this question. the question becomes, if there is a no-fly zone, which you are advocating, and the russians invade the no-fly zone, would president clinton say, shoot it down? would you give it warning? hillary clinton: that would not happen. we are going to put up a no-fly zone where the russians are clearly kept informed. i want them at the table. they don't have to participate in it, but i want them to understand that there has to be areas on the ground, safe areas on the ground. if we can stop hundreds of thousands of more syrians leaving syria, because they get to a place where they can get medical aid, that is good for russia.
why does russia want this incredible burden that is going to be coming up through europe, and yes, maybe they are happy to see europe suffering, but in the end, it makes no sense for them or all of us. i think you have to have that conversation. it is never easy with the russians, and particularly hard with vladimir putin. if you say, as i think you should and the conversation needs to get to an operational level, and then at the same time a conversation with putin about what options truly are, i think you can say to him, we are going to put up a no-fly zone. you will know very well where it is because it is going to be the same people to deconflict airspace, the same americans you are dealing with. but we have to figure out how to keep syrians in syria, and frankly, it is good for the fight against isis if we have populations that can be a locus. charlie: no-fly zone is one place where you and the
president disagree. are there others where there is a difference? we saw what he said at the council of foreign relations and the interview he did in turkey. you seem to be similarly responding to what the situation is. where else do you differ? hillary clinton: i think the president has said, perhaps we should have taken additional steps earlier. charlie: back to the point that you and general petraeus were recommending in 2011? hillary clinton: yes. now the important issue is what do we do now. i'm arguing for perhaps a greater, quicker intensification of the work i think needs to be done. i agree with the president's point that we are not putting american combat troops back into syria or iraq, we are not going to do that. charlie: under no circumstances would you not do that? hillary clinton: at this point, i cannot conceive of any circumstances where i would agree to do that.
i think the best way to defeat isis is as i have said -- from the air, which we lead, on the ground which we empower and train and equip, and in cyberspace, where, don't forget, they are a formidable adversary online. we don't know yet how many special forces might be needed. how many trainers and surveillance, and enablers might be needed. that in terms of thousands of combat troops, like on the republican side by recommending, i think that should be a nonstarter. it should be a nonstarter, both because i don't think it is the smartest way to go after isis -- i think it gives them a new recruitment tool, if we get back in the fight. whereas if we are equipping and supporting the kurds, then we can do a lot to make it work.