tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg February 6, 2016 8:00pm-9:01pm EST
♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." betty: welcome to the program. i am betty liu, filling in for charlie rose, who is on assignment. we begin this evening with a look at the latest democratic debate. a one-on-one showdown between bernie sanders and hillary clinton that took place this evening at the university of new hampshire. [applause] rachel: secretary clinton, senator sanders is campaigning against you now. basically by arguing you are not progressive enough to be the democratic nominee. he has said that if you voted
for the iraq war, if you were in favor of the death penalty, if you bobbled on things like the keystone pipeline, if you said single-payer health care cannot happen, you are too far to the right of the democratic party to be the party's standardbearer. given those policy positions, why should liberal democrats support you and not senator sanders? ms. clinton: because i am a progressive who gets things done. the root of the word progressive is progress. but i have heard senator sanders' comments. it has really caused me to wonder, who is left in the progressive wing of the party? under his definition, president obama is not progressive because he took donations from wall street. vice president biden is not progressive because he supported keystone. senator shaheen is not progressive because she put -- she supports the trade tax. even the late great senator paul wellstone would not fit this definition because he voted for doma.
we have differences. honestly, i think we should be talking about what we want to do for the country. but if we're going to get into labels, i don't think it was progressive to vote against the brady bill five times. [applause] ms. clinton: i don't think it was progressive to vote to give gun sellers immunity. it wasn't progressive to vote against ted kennedy's immigration reform. we can go back and forth like this. but the fact is, most people watching tonight want to know what we've done and what we will do. that is why i am laying out a specific agenda that will make progress, get more jobs with rising incomes, get us to universal health care coverage, get us to universal pre-k, paid family leave, and the other elements of what i think will build a strong economy that will it sure that americans keep making progress. that is what i'm offering. that is what i will do as president. rachel: senator sanders? do you establish a list of what
it means to be a progressive that is unrealistic? sen. sanders: no, not at all. here is the reality of american economic life today. the reality is we have one of the lowest voter turnout of any major country on earth, because so many people have given up on the political process. the reality is, there has been trillions of dollars of wealth going from the middle class in the last 30 years to the top 1/10th of 1%. the reality is that we have a corrupt campaign finance system which separates the american people's needs and desires from what congress is doing. to my mind, what we have got to do is wage a political revolution. where millions of people have given up on the political process, stand up and fight back, demand the government that represents us and not just a handful of campaign contributions, contributors. the ideas that i'm talking about
, they are not radical ideas. making public colleges and universities tuition free -- that exists in countries all over the world. it used to exist in the u.s. rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure and creating 13 million jobs by doing away with tax loopholes that large corporations now enjoy by putting their money into the cayman islands and other tax havens -- that is not a radical idea. what we need to do is to stand up to the big money interests and campaign contributors. when we do that, we can in fact transform america. rachel: thank you, senator. betty: we continue with charlie's interview. charlie: danny bowien is named the rising star chef of the year by the james beard foundation in 2013. his new book is called "the
mission chinese food cookbook." david chang calls it a portrait of an artist still in progress. i am pleased to have danny bowien at this table. welcome. danny: i am pleased to be here. charlie: david chang is god around you. danny: he's an angel. charlie: this is what he said in the forward to this book. "i tried his food in san francisco before coming to new york. to be honest, i remember being upset this guy was doing something i wanted to do forever. but i got over my anger relatively quickly when i saw how well he was executing it. danny is genuinely innovative in how he thinks about chinese cooking." from god. [laughter] danny: he is amazing. he was instrumental in me getting over a lot of fear of opening in new york.
when he did his latest, you look at this guy that was just going for it. it definitely helped when you come to new york and he signs off on something like that. it was crazy. it was scary. it's exciting and scary. then you just get down to it and do it. charlie: that is all it is. danny: it's hard. it is really tough. charlie: but new york is the toughest market? danny: honestly, every market is tough to crack in its own ways. but i think new york is really tough. but it is also extremely rewarding because it is so tough. charlie: it is the big enchilada. danny: the enchilada grande. what's intriguing about you is your story. you were adopted by parents from oklahoma, from korea. danny: i was three months old when i was adopted. i grew up in oklahoma city.
it was a great town. i love being from there. charlie: they have a good basketball team. danny: great basketball team. they were not there when i was over there. i don't know any professional sports. my mom was a major inspiration. she was a stay-at-home mom. my dad worked for general motors. he loved it. he worked there until he retired. so i had a pretty stable, great childhood. great parents. my mother's inspiration, even from cooking-- charlie: when she died? danny: i was 18. charlie: that was a huge moment for you. danny: it was very pivotal. for the first time ever, my mom had provided for the family. she made food. as far as inspiration goes, i would always stay with her during the day, instead of going to play sports with other kids.
when she passed away, i took over the cooking responsibilities. charlie: you had a feeling for it? danny: not really. i kind of enjoyed cooking, but it wasn't at the level of seriousness. i just liked making food. what i enjoyed the most was bringing people together. having people together was important for me. charlie: what is your schedule like? danny: i have a two-year-old. almost two. it started to level out. i think having my son helped me learn that i can't work in a restaurant 90 hours a week. my schedule is usually -- my wife and i trade who wakes up with him on certain days. i wake with him up on monday, wednesday, and friday, because that's when he goes to daycare. he starts to sleep later, around 6:00. taken to daycare, go to work, check in with the first restaurant. usually michelin cantina. charlie: what's the most surprising thing about being a
father? danny: that it is difficult. [laughter] charlie: that's not surprising. talk to any parent you know, they will tell you it is difficult. danny: i think the most surprising thing about being a father -- in a positive way, lately i've found that no matter what stresses me in life, when you see your child, it's amazing how uplifting that is. charlie: here is my comment on that. when you get married, you find someone whose life is as important as yours. when you have a child, you find someone whose life is more important than yours. danny: yeah, totally. you said it. it's so true. i've also kind of like, i feel like i've found myself in a lot of ways. things about myself that i did not know. i had feelings i did know i had before. charlie: like what?
danny: being adopted, my parents are the ones i grew up with -- they are my parents. but i felt this connection with my son lately. it's wild. charlie: i had not thought about that, adopted parents. if you are adopted and then become a parent, you feel something about the blood thing differently. danny: it is kind of crazy. it is really amazing. it's an amazing feeling that i have with my family, and my wife. charlie: so you want more. danny: i don't know about that. [laughter] new york is tough -- anywhere is tough. i think one is good for now. charlie: what's interesting about your career, did you roar out of oklahoma city into san francisco? danny: i would say i rushed out of oklahoma city. charlie: you wanted to go do things. danny: yeah, definitely.
charlie: what was that thing you wanted to? you wanted to be somebody? danny: i wanted to get out of oklahoma. i did not really attend college. i tried to, and it just wasn't for me. so i played music. i was in a band for a long time. the band broke up. i didn't really have anything else. i was working for an optometrist's office. i thought i wanted to be an eye doctor. the school thing and eye doctor, you have to do those two things together. so i went to san francisco to visit my friends, and there was a cap -- a culinary school. there are like, you have always been interested in food, why don't you check it out? i went there for five days. i was hooked. but not only on culinary school, more unjust, san francisco is an amazing city. but yes, i did rush out of oklahoma. what anthony is boarding just said about you and a few others. "mostly first-generation immigrants from asia are changing, redefining, and defining forever what american cuisine really is." danny: that is nuts.
it's just crazy for me to hear, chang and bourdain. charlie: they think you have got something. danny: i mean, they have something, for sure. charlie: but they think you have something. danny: i think i have something too, finally. charlie: did success prove it to you? it has that effect. danny: i think success proved it to me. i think failure proves it to you, too. bourdain and chang, it gets me every time. charlie: what is it that draws these people to you? danny: i don't know. charlie: you shared something. danny: it is a non-spoken thing. we are all chefs.
our job is pretty hard. we are all creative. with them and me, i have no idea. six years ago, i was just reading about these guys. they were my idols. they still are. charlie: you are their idol. danny: no, i am their friend. it takes me a second -- i never got the chance to soak it all in or realize what it is. it's nuts. charlie: you know what i say? keep at it, work hard, enjoy it. that is the secret. danny: that's the important thing, enjoying it. actually giving yourself the time to process everything. charlie: here's the other thing. you've sustained difficulties along the way. danny: yeah, totally. charlie: you come here and start mission chinese. danny: yeah. charlie: and what happens? danny: well, a lot of good things happen.
[laughter] but a lot of bad things happen. we were opening a restaurant in new york for the first time anywhere. from day one, it was difficult. the most difficult thing was when we got shut down by the health department. they came through. we were new to operating. there's no excuse. we can blame it on the building, the landlord. we were the tenants. eye-opening,ike, to have someone to come in and say that we are closing the restaurant. for structural issues, for health code violations. that was crazy. it happened once, and then a second time. right after we reopened, we rushed to reopen, just because we did not know what to do. we tried our best bring the building up to code. now we are in a new space, we're good. but we tried to reopen there.
it closed again, we were like, that's it. we were having trouble with the building. we stopped for a while. mission chinese was closed for a year. the new york -- in new york. it makes you think, wow, this is happening, and any kind of media -- it took a while. the first person who ever called ?like, what's going on and i was doing an event in san francisco. he was in copenhagen. he just calls me on the phone. i did not even have his phone number. charlie: and he says what? danny: are you ready? and i said, for what? and he said, i don't know, they
are coming for you. you have to be ready. they see you are wounded. you are the nicest guy and you have all the success, but they are going to come for you. so you need to make sure you are strong enough to handle it, and that you are resilient enough to come back. when the best chef in the world tells you that, it makes it a bit easier to know that you have the support of your friends. charlie: somebody knows where you are. danny: yeah. ey aree: and thei there to help you when they can. danny: yeah. and that helped out. after that happened -- there was no question we were going to get back on her feet again. charlie: what about today? the cantina is a success. danny: i feel today that i am a success. i have a beautiful family. i made it through everything. and we are successful. charlie: are the people in thrilled toy just
death? danny: i hope so. every time i go back, it is great. we're going to do a book tour in a couple months. charlie: talk about the book, "the mission chinese cookbook." you call it a dialogue about food. danny: we started writing this book three years ago. charlie: you and chris ying. danny: yes, before i moved to new york. we were opening a new restaurant here. the book was sold then. we made a deal through anthony bourdain. we put it out through his imprint, echo. the good thing about doing this book with anthony was that he was like, you guys are great, just do whatever you want. it took three years to write because the restaurant closed. writing that book, we opened the restaurant, close it twice, reopened two restaurants.
it is a dialogue about what mission chinese food is. we just wanted to keep track of what was happening. charlie: so what is mission chinese food? danny: my life. [laughter] danny: we wanted to keep a journal for ourselves. just to keep track of everything happening. charlie: listen to this. this is actually interesting. i have alluded to this, and i will close with this. what follows is not just a cookbook. yes, there are recipes for some of the most dangerous, flavor packed dishes you are ever likely to find, yes. but it's also a uniquely american story about how to do everything wrong and have it end up brilliantly, gloriously right." that is your story. danny: yeah. very kind words. that sums it up, though. it is true.
getting all success we had out of the gate and losing a lot of that success -- it could have gone really badly. charlie: and then regaining more. danny: yeah. it is an amazing story. i am happy that i am here. charlie: you still love to cook. danny: i love to cook still. it got kind of dark for a minute. when i found that when everything seems wrong, i can just cook. everything can be going wildly wrong in my life, but if i can just cook, everything seems ok. that is what is beautiful about food and cooking. for me, it really centers me. charlie: thank you for coming. danny: no, thanks for having me. charlie: danny bowien, back in a moment. stay with us. ♪
♪ al: there is no more venerable institution in american politics than the new hampshire primary. it is 100 years old, and since 1952, it is been essential to the nomination of almost all presidents. predicting the outcome of new hampshire and what these independent-minded voters will do is about as safe as picking the winner of the lottery. but next tuesday, new hampshire will somehow shake up and shape the 2016 presidential race.
charlie, we are with three people who had a combined 150 years of experience with this wonderful primary. joe mcquaid, the editor of the the manchester union, the largest newspaper in the state. they have endorsed chris christie in this primary. kathy sullivan, former cochair of the democratic party in new hampshire, with lots of roots in the state. she is a hillary clinton supporter. tom roth, the former attorney general and former everything, who is a john kasich reporter. thank you all for joining us. let me just ask you to start, why new hampshire? what is the value of having the first primary here, tom? tom: the answer is why not? but the involvement, the civic involvement of people. we will have a 70% to 75% vote.
these folks take this very seriously. it's not a republican or democrat thing. it is our most prized political position. nobody else will spend not just the week between iowa and new hampshire, but the time between they leave and the next one, studying the field, getting to know the field. it is one thing to show up the week before. six months ago they were running events in july. and people were taking time out to go. it was a smart, involved, very engaged electorate. al: the old line, "are you going to vote for me next tuesday? no, i've only met you three to four times." but take up on what tom said. kathy: it is a small state and candidates are forced to interact with voters. once you leave new hampshire, you go into a bubble. if you become president, you live in a bubble. unfortunately, people are not
forced to interact with real, everyday voters the way they are in new hampshire. i think that is an important thing. if you're going to elect a leader, that leadership should have to talk to and learn from the voters. you have to do that in new hampshire. >> any other state, where can you find one that represents america on the size that you can get around and meet people? a lot of times, they talk about having regional primaries, in which case a dark horse, underfunded candidate would have no chance whatsoever. it would all be t.v. no retail politics. >> tarmac to tarmac, right? >> exactly right. new hampshire gives them the chance to do that. i used to say that new hampshire was the first place that voters could meet the candidate. now it's the last place where you are going to get that physical contact. al: how different is it today than 50 years ago? has the primary changed? tom: the influence of media is much greater.
one thing that has really changed is the predominance of polls. we are being told now what the agenda is. usually, we were the first ones to write on the blackboard. now they are saying, here all these things. just this week, people are saying, because of what the polls are saying, you are about to drop out. joe: and they are often wrong. in 1980, i remember ronald reagan was upset about george h.w. bush in iowa. i thought that if the gipper doesn't have it, you will lose new hampshire big. boy, did the dynamics change over just a couple days. >> the dynamics changed because reagan showed himself to be a vital, virile guy. very few people still catch on to this. but he copped a great line from a spencer tracy movie from the 1940's. paying for this microphone. >> but he pulled it off.
>> he did. he was strong, and george bush sat on stage not knowing what to do. al: that was the last campaign involving your predecessor, william loeb. the famous, someone say infamous william loeb. boy, he really left a footprint, shall we say. he was not shy. joe: i don't think it was his last. the washington post profiled him a week ago, saying that he endorsed a candidate seven years after he died. [laughter] joe: so i'm waiting for him to endorse someone else. al: they do that in chicago all the time. [laughter] al: your paper is still very conservative. but it's different than it was in the loeb era. joe: it does because we don't have william loeb. he was a one-of-a-kind guy. he was from the era of h
earst and pulitzer. gene mccarthy, 1968, whose campaign was run by my dad's cofounder of the new hampshire sunday news. he was called by loeb on the front page a skunk. and a skunk's skunk. as my father upped the ante to where he was a skunk's skunk's skunk in one headline. but they said they were fair to him in the news columns, even though he was the underdog. he appreciated that. al: one of you mentioned before, the media is all over the place now. it used to be, you would come up there with not many reporters, but some. bute was the "union leader" -- >> year after year, these guys would cultivate sources.
teddy white probably invented that. al: we talked about the unpredictability. just four years ago, kathy, your candidate, hillary clinton, was supposed to be gone, then she came here. the polls, we mentioned the polls, showed obama winning by 10% or 11%. that is not unique. these voters are very independent-minded. kathy: they really are. that was my favorite primary of all. it was great. that was all hillary clinton. people had written her off, but she just went out and worked every day, going to retail events, going to town halls, displaying that great grasp of knowledge on the issues that she has. president obama, they basically had him sitting on his weight. he wasn't doing a lot of town halls or meeting with voters.
but she was out there. even up to the last day, she was out on the street near wmur television to get drivetime kathy: even up to the last day, she was out on the street near wmur television to get drivetime coverage. the polls weren't closing until 7:00 or 8:00, shaking hands through windows and cars. al: one of the reasons the polls are not as reliable, you have as many as 40% of the people that will vote next tuesday are independents and you have same-day registration. i've heard stories of independents choosing between donald trump and bernie sanders. >> i was in a town hall with my candidate. a woman in the front row asked the question. he said, i've seen you at several of my town halls. and he said, i went to the question if you promise to vote for me. and she said, well, you are one
of three. [laughter] >> this is where the polling is wrong. everybody in new hampshire knows when the primary is going to be. when they say on the phone, if the election were today -- and they know it's not today, and they answer honestly, but they reserve the right to change their mind. we have seen things change in a weekend. 10 points can move in the last weekend very quickly. no poll is good enough to catch it. what is amazing is that there are all these thousands of individual decisions that get made the same way. that is really unique. that is because everybody has paid attention. everybody studied it. al: let's talk about about the state. the common image of new hampshire from most people that don't know it the almost -- not
, rural, but this is a very affluent state. you have a pretty darn good economy compared to most places. under 3% unemployment. the manufacturing state. that's different than the new hampshire we knew in the past, isn't it? >> the manufacturing has changed from making uniforms for civil war soldiers to making shoes. now bae and other high-tech companies making incredible things. there is a guy named dean kamen, who you might know, who is an inventor who owns a lot of millyard space. he comes up with insulin pumps and robotic arms for veterans. it is incredible. i don't know all about this state. we had a story last week in the sunday news about the new hampshire electorate, and about how much is new since just four years ago. new hampshire has long been a place where the native-born were in the minority. now it is an incredible minority.
people move here, and then the kids move away and other people come in. those undecided voters -- i pity the people with candidates trying to figure out who are you going to target, how are you going to target, and how are you going to get them out. al: let me ask you about the economy. looking at the data, it is very good. is there a feeling that it is good? joe: no. a lot of the jobs are not old manufacturing jobs that paid well, where you could get by on a high school education. trump taps into that. even hillary and bernie are saying it's not what it should be. the pay level is not -- and they all have radically different solutions to the problem. al: we don't want to talk about the outcome next tuesday. but trump would not appear to be a natural new hampshire candidate. what is his appeal? tom: joe was accurate.
part of it is that there is a unease, a nervousness in the electorate, and he brings up that anger. very interesting. last night he was in milford, his first return since iowa. the local television station did big coverage of him they talk to a voter who was still committed to him. they put someone's name on the news. i am not so sure that all these people are new hampshire citizens. joe: they are not by any means. the first time he came for interview, i greeted him at the door. he was looking over my shoulder. i turned around and 2/3 of my staff was standing there. my son explained to this old guy later, dad, he is a celebrity tv star, he's a business brand, and now he's a presidential candidate. he naturally attracts people the way pt barnum used to.
al: kathy, is the state now more of a blue state? kathy: we are still purple. we have elected democratic governors, except for one two-year term since 1996. our legislature has been democratic. we are a purple state and will continue to be a purple state for a long time. al: i want joe and tom to tell me who they think will win the democratic primary, and kathy, who do you think will win the republican? kathy: that is a tough one. al: you would have to pick right now. i'm going to go out on a limb and give the edge to christie. al: oh my gosh. tom. [laughter] tom: i think it is significantly closer than the polling. i continue to believe that hillary clinton will win. al: joe. joe: tom is right that it's much closer. in 2008, i thought hillary would
beat obama because she is so strong with women, who, like it or not, they want a woman president. i think she will win by being close. my columnist here has set the expectations game for hillary. i think she's going to get a win out of it if she comes within a couple percentage points. al: this has been wonderful. one thing we know is that the eyes of the world will be on new hampshire next tuesday. i doubt you will disappoint. we look forward to being here four years from now. all three of you, thank you so much. we will be back in just a minute. ♪
charlie: some of history's greatest artists, writers, and musicians have struggled with mental illness and bipolar illness. they include van gogh and others. "touched with fire" is a new film that explores the connection between manic depression and creativity. it tells the story of marco and carla, two bipolar poets, who fall in love in a psychiatric hospital. here is a look at the trailer. [knocking] >> hey. >> hi. >> i just wanted to talk. >> fire. it went out last night. >> my mind moves in tune with the lunar shift. >> sun burns on the tip of the moon. >> what is going on? >> [indiscernible]
>> it's going up in flames. >> i'm just trying to figure out who i am. [distorted voices] ♪ >> i turned myself involuntarily last night. you can't keep me here. >> no, no, no. >> this is a hospital for sick people. i am not sick. i understand why you would be here. you look very sick to me. it's in your face. >> we have two new people today. emily and marco. >> i go by luna, my poet's name. >> they're all crazy. you know who said that? we're not from here, you and me. ♪ >> these crazy connections between bipolar and artistic genius. >> is it true that neither of you thinks you are from this planet? >> you are not healthy for one another. >> i don't think it's such a bad thing to feel like this deepest emotion --
>> you have to trust me now. >> don't you hear it? >> for me, insanity is love. you have to be crazy to be in love. >> you are not willing to make any sacrifices. >> are we a mistake, carla? are we a mistake? ♪ >> the closer to each other they move, the brighter they shine. as we race through the day on that flame. ♪ charlie: joining me now, paul dalio, the writer and director. actor luke kirby, and psychologist and friend of the program, dr. kay jamison. i am pleased to have all of them here at this table.
i think we should begin talking about you and how all of this led to this film. >> when you get diagnosed, you go from experiencing what you are certain is some kind of divine illumination. sometime you are thrown into a hospital, pumped full of drugs. you come down 60 pounds overweight, completely disoriented. they tell you no, that was nothing divine. that was nothing illuminating. you just have triggered a lifelong genetic illness, which will swing you from psychotic highs to suicidal lows. and you will probably fall into the one-in-four suicide statistic unless you take the medications. which makes you feel no emotion. if you can imagine missing feeling sad, it's the only thing worse than pain. it's hard for people to comprehend. after a lifetime of building your identity within your
placing humanity, to suddenly be told that you are a defect of humanity and to know you are not going to be the person you used to be, and that you will at best be able to get by. it's life shattering. the only labels you have to choose from are some form of a disorder -- manic depression, bipolar disorder. you scrape through every clinical book trying to look for answers. that is exactly what i did. i was peeling through these clinical books, which were all these diagnostic, medical texts, where it felt like i was under a microscope with someone in a lab coat judging me. then i come across her book. "touched with fire." it was this beautiful, artistic book, talking about the gifts that come with it, the correlations that come with artistic creativity and bipolar.
it wasn't at all clinical. it was written like poetry. it was illustrated like a painting. and so, it just blazed through all of the thick clinical printed ink rigidly scripted in these books, these clinical books. this label, that for the first time was something redeeming and i could be proud to be. ok, i will be "touched with fire," i can go with that. and it was a completely -- a rebirth of who i was. at the same time, it led to a journey between romanticizing it and experiencing the beauty to the point of my own destruction and unable to let go of it and being overmedicated in efforts to try to keep my life stable, which was basically a waiting room for death. i remember not being able to cry when my aunt died. who i loved, because i could not
feel it, and it was just -- i was like, i can do this. the film really came about as this love story between these two characters that bring out in each other all the beauty and horror of their condition. the love story and the love gets more and more intense the further they go into the relationship, until at some point it burns too bright to be sustained. and they have to find some reconciliation between the horror and the beauty. charlie: where are you today? >> today i am where i never thought i would be, but i am where kay told me i would be. i remember when i met kay, she told me -- it was just after my doctor told me, you will be able to be happy. you will be able to be happy on the medication, creative. i was like, can you introduce me to one person that you know that is stable, that is medicated? if you do, i will be very helpful and will actually fight for it. until then, i feel like i'm getting by it.
he cannot produce one person, but he was friends with kay, so he introduced me to her. so, she told me. i was reading the book "exuberence," which she wrote. i was thinking to myself how could this person, bipolar on meds, write about exuberance like this? i asked her about it, and she said that i will definitely feel that again. she also said something that was illuminating for me. just about every artist she knows is more creative after bipolar than before, as long as they are on the meds. to me, it was like, ok, i did not go through this hell for nothing. i can have the gift, but i don't have to kill myself for it. there is a way. it took years, but now i genuinely feel more emotion than i did before bipolar. i feel more meaningful a motion than i ever did when i was manic. the emotion is tied to life and a child, things that sustain and
matter. better. i am much more creative than i ever was when i was manic or before bipolar. to the point where i can honestly say if i was offered a cure, i would not take it. i do consider it that much of a gift. charlie: the decision to make a film. >> that was mostly the stigma. living and seeing people look at me, and people like me, and not knowing what is in our hearts. i was always inspired by the van gogh quote, "people look at me like a non-entity, like an eccentric, but i would like to someday show through my work what an eccentric has in his heart." when you walk by a man homeless in the street, gazing up at the sky with bloodshot eyes and a crazy smile, you might distance yourself. you might want to the other side of the street. you might look away.
but when you have seen the most beloved images of the sky through the van gogh's painting at the moma, if you could see what the homeless man is seeing, look at him that way anymore. you won't charlie: this film is dedicated to bipolar artists. lord byron william blake, sylvia , plath, robert ferguson -- edna st. vincent millet, ezra pound, anne sexton, percy shelley, it goes on and on, molière, dylan thomas, joseph onrad, william falte faulkner, herman hesse, herman melville, virginia woolf, tchaikovsky, it goes on and on. cole porter, jackson pollock, georgia o'keeffe -- it goes on and on. and vincent van gogh, as i
mentioned in the introduction. help me understand the link between bipolar and creativity. dr. jamison: it is complicated. what is very interesting is that some of those people probably had just depression alone. charlie: not bipolar, just depression alone. dr. jamison: one of the ongoing controversies in sick i treat is what is psychiatry is about the relationship a very recurrent depression to bipolar. it turns out they are pretty closely tied. one is temperament. there is a certain boldness, a certain high-energy capacity for some people with bipolar. if you look at the studies, what is striking is the rapidity of thought. when people begin to get manic, their thinking speeds up.
they have more and more associations and more unusual associations. if you speed somebody up that is not already creative, you are just going to get someone who is speeded up. but if you have somebody creative and give them this high-energy state, they are very determined to do something. going after the highest goals and aspirations. that often goes along with the temperament as well. the capacity to feel. if you ask writers what the contribution of the illness is, acknowledged and the terror and lethality of it, that range of experience from ecstasy, the communal sense with the universe, and experiencing these high states, and also the compassion that they feel from having gone through the horror of psychosis and depression. charlie: let me take a look at this. this is the first clip. this is carlo, played by katie holmes, and marco played by luke, talking about the relationships with their parents.
>> because we both share, we are the only ones that can relate to each other. beautiful. >> i understand that. >> excuse me, you understand that? remember -- the doctors told us. >> let's face it. if they signed up for a dating website and they put on mentally ill, it's not like they're going to attract a whole lot of people, "that's my soulmate." right? maybe this is a chance for them to have a real relationship. if they stay on the medication, quite frankly, i have no problem with it. >> that is the whole issue, right? >> mom, can you just listen to him? >> okay, just zip up. >> you know what i'm talking about? >> marco, listen, you know that it's going to take time. till you find the right dosage, right? even the doctor has said that eventually you're going to feel a wide range of normal emotions. >> how does he know? he's not taking the meds?
>> the doctor does not take the meds, you know that. >> than i can't just trust him. i don't think it such a bad thing to feel life with the deepest emotion. i don't think that's a problem. >> it's an illness. >> well, maybe for you, because you have a low emotional capacity, and so to you it makes you feel sick. >> wait a minute, i don't have a low emotional capacity. i feel just fine. charlie: is the med lithium, or is it more? dr. jamison: lithium is still the gold standard. there are other medications. there are a slew of medications. a lot of people need to take several. charlie: back to the argument, does it have impact and are by taking thences meds? dr. jamison: there are absolutely consequences. you would lose your credibility as a clinician if you said otherwise. these are drugs that affect the brain. therefore they affect energy and
sleep and mood, all the things that make us human. it is also true that this illness is very destructive to the brain. as you will know from your brain series, if you take scans of people with one manic episode versus many episodes. it is a progressive illness. nobody is going to be creative 10 years down the pike if they are unstable in four-point restraints in a hospital or dead. charlie: what do you say to those people who resist because it will somehow depress their creativity? dr. jamison: i say that is a completely legitimate question. i would be concerned, too. the studies that we have indicate that people are more productive and creative after they've been taking medication. but one of the things that we know now is that people can be
kept at a much lower level of medication. psychotherapy is very useful in conjunction with medication. that can allow you sometimes to gauge and get your medication a little bit lower, but there is no evidence at all that you will be able to survive bipolar if you aren't being treated. charlie: luke was simply reading "touched with fire" and having many dialogues with paul. was that all you needed to prepare for this? >> probably. maybe a bit of life experience as well. mostly it was that. mostly it was me and paul walking circles around each other. around the city -- charlie: just talking and talking. luke: slowly coming to an understanding. charlie: for you to understand him. luke: for me to understand him. and to release the rings and range and try to build on that
understanding, and have it manifest physically and emotionally. charlie: if somehow we could identify the genes for bipolar and do something about them, whether it is edit or whatever it might be, would you be in favor of that? dr. jamison: certainly getting a more accurate and early diagnosis so that people don't suffer from it. and people get more accurately treated. and earlier on. in terms of developing much more specific medications and treatment, absolutely. the editing -- if you're talking about getting rid of this line, absolutely not. i think the complexity of an illness that is treatable, that is related very much to high-energy, risk-taking, creativity -- is not something you want to mess around with.
>> "brilliant ideas," powered by hyundai motor. >> the contemporary art world is vibrant and booming as never before. it is a 21st-century phenomenon, a global industry in its own right. "brilliant ideas" looks at artist with the unique power to astonish, challenge, and inspire. in this program, british sculptor conrad shawcross. ♪