tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg February 21, 2016 7:00am-8:01am EST
♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin with politics and the 2016 election. primaries in south carolina and nevada are taking place this weekend and next week. marco rubio the endorsement from governor nikki haley on wednesday. >> i want a president understands they have to bring a conscience back to our republic. ladies and gentlemen, if we elect marco rubio every day will be a great day in america. charlie: donald trump continues
to hold a lead over ted cruz among republican primary voters. ask about trump, the pope weighed in. a person who things only about building walls wherever they may be and not of building bridges is not christian. trump responded at a rally in south carolina. >> for a religious leader to question a person's faith is disgraceful. i will not allow christianity to be consistently attacked and weakened unlike what has happened now with our current president. charlie: joining me now is john dickerson of cbs news and the host of "face the nation." he has moderated several political debates in this political season. it is the political season i want to talk about. you have covered politics for a while. you were born into politics. your mother was a political
correspondent. have you ever seen anything like this? john: no. particularly on the republican side. so many candidates. it is donald trump and scott walker. which is to say, we know donald trump has broken rules but he seems to find new ones to break and survive them. scott walker is a part of this story. here is a governor reelected who took on the unions, a hero in his party, walked the walk. he had everything. good fundraising. everything going for him. he was one of the first to get out. there are many ways this has been a year that has been totally unpredictable. charlie: how do you explain that? there is a yearning for change for something different, for some since of washington has not been part of the solution, they had been part of the problem. john: it is a number of different things.
washington has not been part of part oftion, it's been the problem. the elites in the parties, in both parties have served up dish after dish that has been unsatisfying. the way in which politicians talk is unsatisfying and empty, and doesn't speak to people's needs. you had a politician come along and donald trump who could say anything and because of the way he said it it sounded new and fresh and real. also, he has been able to pretrade himself -- and has a natural instinct -- for putting himself on the side of people who were so upset and disaffected. other politicians talk about disaffected voters and try to say i understand your anger. trump embodies it. when he speaks and says one of these things everybody gets exercised about from his corner, what he is hearing is amen brother.
charlie: even though he talks about "i" a lot, he also talks about "we" a lot to identify himself. john: when he's talking about himself the voters who like him, they are fine with vanity and the rest of it if it is on their behalf. they into it what he is saying. they don't mind because they think he is bragging on their behalf. charlie: which brings me to the pope. is there a sense that you don't want the pope criticizing you. in republican politics this pope is not popular, even though it it was john boehner's last act as speaker to sit and having invited the pope to be with him.
it was very moving. among republicans this is not a popular pope. on this issue he is saying the trump view on immigration, the political wall, very popular among trump voters, the pope is butting his nose in where he shouldn't is the view. trump is probably on ok ground. he did say no leadership ever question the religious faith of another. which is a new rule for him. last week he spent it questioning whether ted cruz was a christian. he is also questioned president obama's faith. he has modified his rules. [laughter] charlie: yes. [chuckles]
charlie: he's changed. and there's a fight now with ted cruz about his commercial suggesting when he said he was pro-choice -- he is learning to sue him because he says he is representing old views. john: this is an interesting tactical fight. you can see trump time ted cruz down in distracting fights back-and-forth and tit-for-tat. which is just messy if you are ted cruz trying to push a message. on the other hand if people can get past the tit-for-tat and focus on the context of the ad, it is basically donald trump in his own words speaking to tim russert about how he is pro-choice. the question will be does trump by getting into a fight with ted cruz benefit or does the message get through? it seems like trump is winning this one. charlie: trump versus cruz. everyone has been looking to south carolina looking if jeb bush can survive. will he make some progress here. then you have the endorsement which he wanted from the governor of south carolina. is there a new race for second place?
john: trump is so far ahead of everyone that ted cruz and rubio and them are -- and rubio are in second place. if ted cruz comes in third, that is bad news for ted cruz. this is a place for ted cruz would have been expected to do well. he is not a dumb guy. he is smart and knows how to make an argument. if over the course of a month his arguments could not penetrate into the trump lead that is not great for ted cruz. it's going to be hard to construct a new argument. he doesn't seem to be falling. his voters are particularly resilient. not only did they pay cam early but the more the attacks the stronger their faith in him is. charlie: what is marco rubio's biggest weakness? john: he has not been tested. that is what is the argument chris christie was making. the argument john kasich has been making. he has a very tight argument that he makes about the experience on itself. that seems like a good argument for the presidency. you're going to face a crises day by day parade that doesn't hurt marco rubio that much.
charlie: let me start with the president. is the conversation about the president's decision not to go to the funeral? john: there is curiosity about it. it seems to be unnecessary. there is head scratching mostly. why he doesn't just go to the funeral. but that is all i have heard so far. charlie: in south carolina hillary clinton is doing as well as she might have expected to do. john: up by almost 30 points. this is a -- south carolina was supposed to be a firewall for her. it looks like it is going to serve that purpose. it is not just that she does well in the african-american communities. she has been working south carolina hard for months long
before bernie sanders was a real threat. going into rural areas, talking to african-americans outside of the big cities, they have been working that state hard. ira member being there, being surprised at how hard they were working it. the question for hillary clinton, this is true when we talk about nevada, where do
expectations lineup. bill clinton when he came in second and new hampshire, that was a big deal. it is on and on. it is how you do relative to expectations. if expectations are she is going to crush in south carolina what happens when she does do that? does she get a story that says everybody was expecting that or do people say this is the beginning of a series of victories because not every state is like iowa and new
hampshire? that will be one of the things to watch when she does well in south carolina. charlie: nevada? john: she was supposed to have done well. this has been a funny week in the clinton camp. they claim nevada, which had out of the next election a minority participation in the caucus. some clinton advisers were saying that it's basically a state that is as white as new hampshire and iowa. that is not the case. this is a state where she should have done well. maybe in tougher position now. polling is very difficult and so even though there is a poll that has the candidates basically even, everybody would warn you that it's hard to know what's going to happen in the nevada caucus. if she doesn't do well, it would potentially tell us something
about bernie sanders' ability to reach outside of the white vote he has done well in and produce some votes in a nonwhite constituency which is one of the hurdles for him if he wants to do better. charlie: i thank you very much. i thank you for joining us here. john: a pleasure as always. charlie: back in a moment. stay with us. ♪
♪ charlie: jennifer jason leigh is here. she has starred in fast times at ridgemont high, georgia, and margot at the wedding. what other actress considers audacious leaps are for jennifer jason leigh typical roles? her role in the hateful eight has under her first oscar nomination. i am pleased to have jennifer jason leigh back at this table. welcome. jennifer: thank you. charlie: when you saw the script, did you say i can do something with this? jennifer: his writing is phenomenal. it is so much fun to read.
i was happy to even have the opportunity to read for it. it is such a great role. he's an amazing director. charlie: what makes it a great role? jennifer: she has a lot of secrets. there's a lot of mystery and grit there. charlie: character, personality. jennifer: so much. she is just the devil. she is this murderous harbor. i don't know. i was playing her but i liked her. and it's funny because she's a terrible hateful person. a lot of women really like her. charlie: is it because she is all that?
she is tough, she has a combative quality? jennifer: a wicked sense of humor. and she is smart. yeah. i think she is fierce. she is dangerous. charlie: tell me who she is. jennifer: her name is daisy. one of the best names. she is a prisoner. she is being brought to be hanged by john ruth known as the hangman because he doesn't bring his bounties in dead. he brings them in alive. charlie: brilliantly played by kurt. i saw kate. she is proud of him. jennifer: as she should be. i miss being handcuffed to him. i will never be the same. no one quite like him. >> what does this mean for you?
because you have been nominated, are people seeing you in different roles or is this an extension of the actors everybody knew you were? jennifer: a lovely question. i don't know. for me i can only speak for myself. i don't know what it means in terms of the outside world. i think it is -- significant for me. charlie: people loved your performance. jennifer: yes. it is incredible to have such a great role. when you get a role in a tarantino film you don't want to let him down. you pay that you won't let him down. charlie: because he has put so much into it? jennifer: he has given you the role of a lifetime pretty loves actors so much. he makes it such a joy to go to work every day. he believes in you.
charlie: and he communicates that? jennifer: yeah, so you want to give him everything he dreamed of. charlie: is that rare? jennifer: absolutely. i've worked with wonderful directors. i'm fortunate in that way. even some of the most wonderful directors, they are in video village. is almost like another universe. but there is no video village on a tarantino movie. he's right there on the set with you. even when i read for the part he read with me. i was reading with him. charlie: you told the guardian a lot of times this business only looks at your last three projects. quentin is the exception. he looks at your body of work. he would talk about moments as though they were yesterday. when he looks at you he doesn't see just what you did the last two years. he doesn't think you are not that person you were in whatever, 1985.
jennifer: it's true. charlie: he knew what you could do. jennifer: he knew more about what i could do than i do. more about my career then i knew. >> how did you prepare not to let him down so that you were -- so you make sure that you brought to bear everything you had? jennifer: he has two rules. no cell phones, and know your lines backwards and forwards. charlie: pretty good rules. jennifer: good rules. you start talking to one another.
you start talking to everyone around you and you become a family. the focus is on what you are making. he wanted daisy to be defined organically. he gave me this task, to play the guitar. which i never played in my life. play it on camera and sing live. he wanted to do it in one take. and, i've never played guitar. it is all picking up both hands. so, i -- it put me in daisy's head. i don't know a few new how much of a gift he was giving me. i was scared i wasn't going to be able to do it. daisy is not sure she's going to survive. saying daisy doesn't want anyone to know she is honorable or -- vulnerable or afraid, it put
me and her in a sincere way. suddenly she just wise. she's nothing like me. movie,hen i look at the i don't see myself at all. but i really enjoy that, you know? charlie: take a look at this scene. major war and played by jackson explaining to daisy the difference between kurt russell's character and him. they are both bounty hunters. here it is. [video clip] >> i want to hear her neck snap with my own two ears. >> that's why they call him the hangman. the rest of a shoot you in the back and bring you in debt over the saddle. when john catches you, you don't die from a bullet in the back. when the hangman catches you, you hang.
>> he's got guts. but you are like a man who took a high dive in a low well. charlie: whose idea was it for the black mark? jennifer: quinton. it was in the script. that is what i looks like. i took a little photo on my phone and said this is as good as it's going to get. this is the beauty shot. charlie: there is also this. you imbued her with the idea that she is going to get out of this. jennifer: that's the thing.
she really knows she's going to survive. she's going to figure it out. she will survive. charlie: she's with smart characters. she's going to figure how to win in the end. [laughter] charlie: and the audience never knows. you don't know how it's going to turn out. jennifer: once you have seen it you know a lot more than you went in with. then you can go back and watch it again and follow all these different people. but now you know a secret about them. everyone has so many secrets. it is fun for that reason. charlie: tell me about this other thing. i have not seen anomalisa. jennifer: it is a piece that charlie kaufman wrote. charlie: i love charlie kaufman. jennifer: he's wonderful. we did it -- charlie: he directed it. jennifer: he codirected it with duke johnson. it is a stop motion animated
movie done with puppets. we did it originally at ucla. it was two nights. the characters are so beautiful. it is funny but also very moving and sad. i didn't want it to end. eight years later he called me and said we are going to do it as a stop motion animated movie. we voiced it in three days in a dark room like this. incredibly intimate. lovely focus. and, two years later it came out. during that two years, they could shoot two seconds a day. unbelievable. it is painstaking work. every time a puppet blinks or does this, someone has to go in and move the puppet. two seconds was a good day. there is a sex scene that is incredibly explicit and awkward and real.
that took them six months to shoot. charlie: who is lisa? jennifer: she is a very sort of average girl, a very sweet girl. she has a little bit of a scar on her face. she is self-conscious. she is awkward. and she falls in love. someone falls in love with her. she's never had that attention in her life. charlie: this is michael stone's character. here it is. clip] >> hello. it's you. >> i'm sorry to bother you. >> not at all. do you want to come in. >> i was just looking for someone.
i think i've got the wrong -- >> it's mr. stone. >> really? oh my god. hello. do i look awful. i was taking my makeup off. don't look at me. >> no. you look lovely. >> i can't believe you're in our room. we came here just to hear you speak. oh my god. don't look at me. >> i'm certainly very flattered. charlie: is this the best of times for you? jennifer: i think it certainly is one of the best of times for me. it is an extraordinary time for me. it is a significant time in many ways. charlie: yours is a profession in which there are not a lot of places where you can work. how many actors are unemployed. jennifer: so many. charlie: how many good actors are not making a movie every year.
jennifer: how many never even get a chance to work. i feel extraordinarily lucky. charlie: most people, their challenge is to be good every day. your challenge is to find a place to be good. have good people to work with. jennifer: and to keep working. it is something you are not in control of. kurt always said if he ever taught a class it would be what to be doing with the time when you are not working. charlie: what do you do? jennifer: quite a lot actually. i spend time with my son. you know, stuff at his school, things like that. charlie: are you active -- do you audition? jennifer: it depends on the
role. sometimes i do. charlie: did tarantino want you to audition? jennifer: he did. charlie: what was he looking for? jennifer: i'm should not sure -- i'm not sure he knew what he was looking for. he was waiting to see it, to see the promise of it. charlie: did he know after the first reading? jennifer: i think a little bit. you would be better off asking him that but we went out to dinner shortly after and talked about the shoot and the role. he said he was feeling good about casting me but it wasn't a done deal. charlie: as much as he feels now. great to have you. jennifer: thank you. charlie: this is an extra in a performance as you know. back in a moment, stay with us. ♪
♪ charlie: richard engel is here. he has 7 emmys. his new book is called "and then all hell broke loose." the associated press calls in a thrilling adventure story laced with historical context. he is a friend of mine. i'm pleased to have him back. richard: it's always an honor to sit at this table. charlie: we have seen each other in many places. what do you want to tell us in this book? it is laced with history.
richard: it's not a book of journalistic accounts, wearing flak jackets and running around. that is not the point. the point is there is a thesis. there is a framework invented in this book. -- embedded in this book. i would love it if they walk away with a way of understanding the middle east, of encapsulating the last 20 years. the framework would be that when i first arrived, it was 1996. i just graduated from college. from stanford. it was such a great honor. it was the first time i went back to campus. to give the commencement speech. so i left that campus, not really knowing how i was going to do it that i wanted to become a foreign correspondent. i thought it was going to be an adventure. i moved to cairo.
charlie: it is all that. richard: and more. it is not that i thought i was going to sit with my martini overlooking my balcony. i thought it would be in paris or something like that. i was going to go to the middle east and make my part in the world. i thought it was going to be the next story. you can't look at the puck coming up to expect where it is going to go. i thought the next place, the middle east. i moved out there. young students say, you want to be a great journalist, think about 20 years from now.
we are you going to be then? to know that story? without getting too far ahead of myself. charlie: where the next great story is coming from. do you want to be covering that? richard: i moved to the middle east. i moved to cairo. it was a poor neighborhood. i was integrating myself and learning the language and the
culture. there was a system in place. i call this the system of the big men. they were mubarak in egypt, the assad family. qaddafi in libya. a system had been locked in place with big men. these systems ran the government, ran these societies and they were deeply flawed people were under educated. deep-rooted conspiracy theories and a lot of ignorance, ethnic and religious hatred under the surface but it was contained by these regimes. charlie: we will take care of the politics. richard: you surrender your right to complain, and we will take care of you. they were paternalistic. and they infantilized people which the people grew to present. the image i keep returning to his of old rowhouses. you think of these old rowhouses. they are beautiful to look at. they are rotten on the inside. they contain the rot, which is good. but by not opening the doors and not cleaning up, and having no democratic challenge they get worse and worse. this is where it begins. this point where you have this system of these rowhouses.
charlie: where are we in time? richard: from 1967 until 2003. that. that i arrived in trying to be a journalist. i lived it. like i said, these houses you could put your finger through the wall. that is how fragile they were. under the bush administration, he slammed america shoulder into the wall of one of these houses. and unleashed the demons within. the arab persian conflict which had been dormant.
eight years of direct military actually broke that. soon to be eight years of inconsistent action by this administration we have destroyed it further. meanconsistence, i supporting the uprising in egypt. days later not supporting it and -- in bahrain. supporting it militarily weeks after that in libya and then months later not supporting it in syria. in benghazi, leading a campaign not supporting it. even while promising in syria to do it. charlie: they would never have supported it in saudi arabia. richard: exactly. -- like in bahrain. the question is, you have to look at these administrations. the actions and inactions and
inconsistent actions having destroyed that previous status quo. houses, to the row of now we're dealing with all the termites, all the rot, all the mold. charlie: it has become what? richard: chaos. charlie: possibility of rogue states. richard: it is a failed state right now. egypt, to continue this model of status quo destruction, chaos, out of the chaos emerges a new series. egypt is leading the way. i think there will be more attempts in libya and syria and iraq. charlie: who's been tougher on cracking down on dissent than mubarak was. richard: i'm not saying this is a good thing. the people in the regions, a lot of them will embrace the strongmen because if you live in aleppo or a suburb of damascus,
there's no food, there's a checkpoint from a militant wearing a ski mask in front of your house. you can't sustain that forever. your kids are going to school. there's no power. there's no gas. you will reach out to someone who offers an easy solution. dictators offer easy solutions. charlie: let's talk about three things. you becoming a foreign correspondent. what are the critical qualities of being a good correspondent? let's assume it is beyond a capacity to go days and days without sleep. it is also an element of courage. but what else? richard: i think you have to believe in it. charlie: you learn the language. richard: this is what i want to do. it is who i am. it is not a job. it is my life.
and that's what i want to do. some people, they want to drive cars. you want to be a cop. whatever it is you want to be, you have talked to all these people. if you decide with all your heart and soul that is what you want, the rest falls into place. what i decided to do with my piece of time on this world is look at societies in transition. charlie: there are stories of you finding yourself at risk. when you realized you were in trouble, you say oh my god. but this is not to be unexpected because i know this was part of the risk when i went down this road.
richard: when i was kidnapped? literally going down the road thinking this was it? charlie: five days you were held. richard: five days. you don't immediately think this is it. too bad. charlie: you say you have to deal with this. richard: your mind goes into the most hyperactive state you could imagine. it is hard to control your thoughts. you are thinking about every tiny detail. at that moment when i was driving down the road, in the backseat of a car and gunmen blocked off the road, all these guys in ski masks and weapons, and they were two men arm standing by the sides of the roads, like an open mouth waiting to swallow us. i'm thinking that's where i'm going. i'm going to be thrown in the back of that truck. everything slows down. you think there's two of them there. that door is open. how high is it there. what's on my left. i probably can't run in that direction. i will get shot. i can't just sit here. they are grabbing the guy in front. what is happening? you are going constantly in seconds, million tiny calculations from can i get my seatbelt off in time, can i run to the corner? you think i can make it to that jump? the key thing if you are in dangerous situations is learning to control your thoughts.
your mind hyperventilates. charlie: that usually comes from training but you happen to do it. richard: it comes with training. i did do a training course in a hostile environment. one of the tricks they tell you is to think about something if you are a captive for a long time. hostages can be held for years and years. if you are locked in a small room how do you stay sane? one of the tricks is to think about something that is procedural.
so, if you build engines, build houses in your mind. i don't build houses. i like to cook. all these great meals. something. when you're not thinking about practical things, something to get your mind in a better place. charlie: syria today. what is going to happen? we now see assad is in a stronger position. they will probably get aleppo. richard: probably. they are getting it now. charlie: what does that mean? a stronger assad. government'sthe control.
richard: i don't see yet a clear way out of it. how it would end. one scenario of how it ends, a sod wins. -- assad wins. russia, iran, hezbollah help sod to the point where he wins. that is one possibility. isis would be destroyed in that situation. the syrian government reasserts its authority and the rebels are destroyed. the u.s. is not supporting that. the arab states are supporting that. turkey isn't supporting that program. another possibility, the kurds take over the north. the kurds drive isis effectively. that is the u.s. maine strategy now. the kurds will be the troops on the ground. with an arab participation. turkey doesn't want that. they are actively fighting against that. another possibility, that there is this moderate arab sunni coalition that pushes the kurds
out and pushes assad back. the u.s. doesn't seem to want that. certainly russia doesn't want that. there is still no international consensus on how this is supposed to end. who is supposed to win. it is still a proxy war were everyone has most favored client. as long as that continues it is going to be very bloody. baghdad is getting worse and worse. worse and worse. a friend of mine -- because of conflict of shia and sunni, because of lack of order. i friend of mine in baghdad, who was a very reasonable person
i've known for many years told me for the first time he bought a gun. >> why? who is he in fear of? richard: everyone. militias. crime. he's afraid there is a breakdown of law and order. bodies are being found, dumped in the streets. charlie: militias doing that? richard: yes. basically. there's lots of different gangs. charlie: iran wants to make sure that they do not come back and reestablish its presence. they left iraq after having destroyed saddam hussein. they would've preferred them to have left in a much shorter amount of time. iran is not want the u.s. to come back. they will fight isis. no doubt. iran doesn't want to see an increased american presence there. charlie: americans don't want to see iran and iraq fighting isis. richard: i don't know. washington is schizophrenic about that. some would say if russia wants
to fight isis, iran wants to fight isis, go ahead. i would say it is schizophrenic. charlie: are they fighting isis? richard: some days. charlie: it is a minority of times. the secretary of defense told me sometimes airstrikes are hitting americans -- american supported rebel groups. richard: take the kurds as an example. you can understand this. the most bizarre proxy conspiratorial fight you could ever have. the kurds are there for a long time, a u.s. supported group. i won't say a client but are most favored ally. they've been very successful. turkey has been there he angry with united states for supporting the kurds because they don't want to see them to powerful.
charlie: some kurds want to over throw turkey. richard: and some are classified as terrorist organizations. to make it even more complicated. russia. russia has been bombing and helping the kurds advance. rush is trying to pry away the kurdish ally if you will from the united states. many believe what russia is trying to do is drive turkey into a ground war against the kurds to punish turkey for having shot down a russian plane. charlie: what are the chances of charlie: what are the chances of retaking mosul before the end of the obama administration? richard: mosul possibly. there is a hope if you take
mosul you don't need to take rocco. it is such an engine, such a population base and wealth base, if you take it, rocca implodes. that is the hope. charlie: that is the story. you have done something interesting. you have predicted the 10 biggest stories of 2016. richard: now i'm going to be totally embarrassed. charlie: rise of the far right in europe. fueled by the immigration crisis. a story you have been covering and will be covering in 2016. it could destabilize europe. richard: it is the middle east collapsed into chaos. people are running from this. they are running to safety, running west and north. charlie: more consensus against isis. i think that is happening. richard: i would hope. charlie: what they want is not isis around. more domestic terrorism. we've seen that in the united states. which is like paris.
richard: the more pressure on isis, i think isis dies. has as not a group that winning philosophy. charlie: their money is not as powerful as it once was. richard: but they have enough, and enough people. this is an organization that needs to keep attacking to survive. charlie: the administration has signaled that. richard: i think inevitably the u.s. will be drawn more deeply. hundreds of thousands of troops but more. how much of the brainpower, the administration being spent thinking about this? charlie: special forces are going on search and destroy missions. this is not just training and advising. they are going on missions.
richard: a few months ago they would have never admitted that publicly. charlie: big changes will be coming to iran. richard: iran is going through more of the most interesting periods. iran is the most dynamic. i was just in iran a few days ago. a deal, the iran nuclear deal has been implemented. charlie: every official says they have done they were saying they were going to do. richard: they certified they did was they were supposed to do. they poured concrete into one of their nuclear facilities. and exported the enriched uranium. now the money is starting to come and the banking sanctions are starting to be loosened. there are these conflicting tensions in iran. those who think this is it. the door is opening.
once the door opens there's no way -- everything will change. there are others who have vested interest to say no, we're going to open the doors we can all survive. charlie: number seven, a hard year for russia. because of economic things. oil is down. the ukraine. richard: and they want to prop up a saw. it is expensive. you want a constant war with supporting rebels in eastern ukraine, that is expensive. the ruble is a week. -- the ruble is weak. charlie: this is today's headline from the financial times. they are going to freeze the oil supply so the price will go up. the iranians are affected by that. those three countries have similar interests.
richard: the saudis were able to absorb low oil prices because they wanted to keep iran out of the market. now they have decided they can't let it go to zero or everybody dies. charlie: china get serious about the environment, india does not. richard: possible. charlie: warming latin american relations -- cuba, venezuela. the idea that somehow latin america becomes more vital. richard: i just saw the u.s. announced it will do flights to cuba again. you see the problems venezuela having. i was wondering, speculating if the u.s. makes such inroads in cuba, if they become a success. it could be contagious. charlie: turkey take center stage. the main pathway for isis fighters. richard: still the main pathway. the turks are starting to crack
down but it is the main artery. charlie: why do you think turkey could be pivotal? richard: turkey is at the crossroads of so many of these issues. isis fighters go in. the kurdish issue is based in turkey. it is a nato member state. so many of these issues -- you could get in a car, i have done this. go to the turkish border. look at an isis flag, a black flag on the turkish border. get in your same car and drive 2.5 hours, three hours. you get to a nato base. that is a strange situation. try from a nato base and to an isis base. charlie: with respect to russia and nato, the thing that putin is driven by in part is borders. that is what he feared about george and ukraine. somehow nato coming in and being that close to the russian border.
they have a long history of worrying about its borders. he is driven by that idea. >> chaos creates opportunities. opportunities that people like putin don't want to miss. he sees an opportunity for expansion. erdowan saw an opportunity to rebuild the ottoman empire around turkey. i think he is seeing an opportunity to rebuild a czarist interest. those are competing agendas. charlie: the book is called "and then all hell broke loose." thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪
♪ carol: welcome to bloomberg businessweek. coming up, we profile one of the most important and least known members of a leadership team at apple. why marco rubio is one of the presidential candidates looking to connect with the hot brand for political gain. the alamo drafthouse dine in movie theater may be the back to the future answer you're looking for. other stories that caught my eye, writing about antonin scalia and the impact he has had