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tv   Early Start With John Berman and Christine Romans  CNN  February 11, 2016 2:00am-3:01am PST

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understand when we come together, we can accomplish enormous things. >> the debate at 9:00 p.m. in milwaukee. correspondent joe johns has the latest. >> reporter: the debate turns to milwaukee. it is important because the former secretary of state lost momentum in the drubbing in new hampshire. she is trying to make changes to the campaign. bernie sanders is going to build on fund raising success as well as the big win in new hampshire to show he's not a one-state wonder. a lot riding on the debate tonight. at the same time, the candidates are looking toward the next time the voters go to the polls. the pivot to south carolina is a challenge for candidates because of the demographics. african-american voters with big influence. interesting, bernie sanders didn't just fly to south carolina after the big win. especially went to harlem to
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meet with al sharpton. sharpton is waiting to meet with hillary clinton. talking with someone familiar with sharpton's thinking, he has concerns with both candidates. my understanding is that while it all sounds good, there is skepticism about whether sanders can deliver. also misgivings about hillary clinton, too. though she polls very well with minorities, there are questions about things bill clinton did as president that could affect hillary's campaign. wounds have not healed over the rhetoric and sometimes divisive battle in 2008. bill clinton going too far at times and signing of the welfare reform bill as president and the crime bill that led to higher rates of incarceration. bill clinton said he regrets
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that, but the source said whether the african-american community will take oops, i'm sorry for an answer. today, the focus on milwaukee and the latest face-off with the candidates in that debate. john and christine. >> that democratic debate sponsored by pbs airs tonight on cnn and on your local pbs station live at 9:00 p.m. the republican presidential field is smaller by two this morning. new jersey governor chris christie and business executive carly fiorina dropped out of the race or suspended their campaigns. now more republicans have quit the race than remain. today, john kasich and ted cruz and marco rubio and ben carson will be in south carolina. that is the scene of the next primary. following the big win in new hampshire, rivals have nine days to try to bring donald trump down. >> donald trump, who is an extraordinary politician, apparently, and great actor and
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enterta entertainer. it is entertaining until you get insulted. not if you are a disabled person. that is a sign of weakness or disparage women or hispanics. >> we cannot nominate a candidate who has the same health care plan of socialized medicine as bernie sanders. >> i think we need to remember that 75% of the voters yesterday chose -- oh, 65% chose someone other than donald trump. the question is how long will it take before we got a narrow enough field for that voter to consolidate. >> trump is the only major republican candidate not in south carolina today. he is headed it to louisiana for a rally in baton rouge. cnn's jim acosta is along for the ride. >> reporter: donald trump literally took a victory lap on the stage behind me as he savored his win in new hampshire. trump tipped his hat to chris christie and carly fiorina who dropped out of the race.
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he rarely talked about the opponents at the event in south carolina. a couple of lines on jeb bush. that is it. he sounded like a send election candidate hitting hillary clinton as someone who cannot beat bernie sanders. here is how trump put it. >> she has to get through the wacky socialist guy bernie. listen, no, no, last night before i made my speech, i said i don't want to make it while he's making it. i was trying to beat him. i let him go. >> reporter: the trump campaign is trying to stick with the arena style rallies up and down the campaign calendar. his campaign manager says he believes his candidate has a major advantage over the contenders in the field. he said the campaign has staff and volunteers in 20 states and trump will not just be in south carolina in the coming days.
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john and christine. now that will be in my head the rest of the morning. joining us to break down the shift of the action to south carolina, we have tom lobianco. good morning. how are you? >> good morning. >> we're great. we love to be up this early. let's talk about ted cruz here. how this is a two-man race. listen to something the candidates said last night. >> i think at this point it is becoming more and more a two-man race between me and donald trump. what we're seeing is conservatives uniting behind our campaign. if conservatives continue to unite, we will win the nomination. >> it is still a seven-man race. >> give credit to jim gilmore. >> there are seven in there. he wants it to be a two-man race. >> that's right. the more people drop out after each contest, the more clear it becomes how crowded this race
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still is. cruz needs it to be a two-man race. it very clearly is not. he did not place well. he placed okay in new hampshire. you know, walking out of new hampshire, there was, you know, more than a few tickets. he could have easily cleared the field had he come in a strong second. he got mixed in with bush and rubio and right in the third tier if you will. the muddy third place finish. >> not a two-man race. south carolina is not a two-man race, but two-lane race. donald trump and ted cruz perhaps competing for that conservative, maybe more religious evangelical voter. then the establishment lane which narrowed as john kasich and jeb bush and marco rubio. i was surprised that jeb bush is still talking only about donald trump. listen to him last night.
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>> he attacked my mother for m campaigning for me. it is funny, actually. of course, they will campaign for me. they love me. i love them. i'm proud of being a bush. if donald trump wants to go after my brother, it will be helpful. >> jeb bush is talking about george w. bush who will campaign for him in south carolina. tom, the risk or reward for that decision? >> you had to play that card at some point. now is the time. you know it does seem like with the number of folks that have dropped out already and his strong performance considering in new hampshire, he didn't get the second place spot, but bush did okay. this breathed new life in his campaign. in south carolina, they said this before. it seems to be true now.
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it is do or die for him. he may not need to win, but he has to do well down there. that could revive his campaign at this point. >> those candidates appearing on fox last night. on cnn yesterday, jay carney breathing insight into who the president would prefer to see as the nominee. listen. >> i don't think there's any doubt that he wants hillary to win the nomination and believes she would be the best candidate in the fall and the most effective as president. >> there we go. we were wondering if the president would favor his vice president coming into the race. that looks like a solid endorsement of hillary clinton. >> it sure sounds that way. that's in line with that podcast that obama did. he later had to tamp it down a bit in the private meeting with
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sanders. the president will more than likely stay out of the primary contest formally. all signs point to at least him and his top staff like clinton. look at that. that points right to her strength, experience and readiness to take on the job. it seems little more pressing now following new hampshire with that sanders 20--point-win there and talk she might not even be able to hold on to nevada. this is, you know, there's a point behind carney coming out now and saying that. >> there's nothing subtle about the white house support and support from president obama for hillary clinton. it just hasn't been loud. it will be interesting to see if they turn up the volume. if that from jay carney was deliberate that the white house is sending as you see more minority voters weighing in. we will watch that for sure. tom lobianco, thank you for being with us.
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>> thanks. breaking overnight. the state department could release 550 e-mails of hillary clinton on saturday after the delays. about 3,700 e-mails remain of the tens of thousands that she kept on her private e-mail server that dogged her campaign. the government's original timeline had it releasing the e-mails the day before super tuesday. the fbi moving in on the protesters in the oregon wildlife refuge. we have details next. we've d a . one totally focused on what's next for your business. the true partnership where people,technology and ideas push everyone forward. accelerating innovation. accelerating transformation. accelerating next. hewlett packard enterprise.
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53 state wins, and t-mobile... whoa, whoa, whoa. listen, folks. i have to apologize, again. look, those were last years numbers. it says right here on the card. t-mobile doubled there lte coverage in the last year. and with more lte towers than verizon, t-mobile reaches pretty much everyone they do. i'm not taking responsibility on this one... uh-uh, verizon got it wrong... yes! not me! join the millions that switched. nation's top health officials testify at a senate hearing where lawmakers are considering a request from president obama for $1.8 billion to fast track the vaccine for the zika virus. two babies who died in brazil from microcephaly.
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this is the strongest link to zika. and the wildlife refuge standoff to soon be over. the fbi surrounded the compound. it appears the armed protesters planned to exit the refuge and surrender in the coming hours. clivan bundy, the father of the protest leader, was arrested overnight at the portland airport. this happened hours ago. the fbi arrested him. not known what the charges are. a post on facebook says that he was on his way to the scene of the standoff in oregon. polices in maryland say they believe the suspect who gunned down two sheriff's deputies monday was targeting police officers. the two deputies were killed in a shootout at a busy shopping center in abington, maryland. the alleged shooter is 68 years old. he was also killed.
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the federal government is suing ferguson to force reforms in the police department and court system after the rejection of the deal with the justice department. the deal negotiated after the widespread discrimination through the ferguson law enforcement. the officer involved in the shooting was not charged. house lawmakers held a hearing on wednesday over the flint water crisis. governor snyder asked the state for $195 million for flint. the city of flint is now under a boil water advisory after a water main which could have allowed bacteria to enter the water system. time for an early start on your money. dramatic losses for stocks around the globe after the deep drop in oil. dow futures down 200 points.
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huge declines in europe and asia. oil crashed. strong u.s. dollar. janet yellen is talking about that in her statement to congress. did the fed raise interest rates too soon? >> while there is also some risk of a recession and i recognize and just stated that global financial developments could produce a slowing in the economy, i think we want to be careful not though jump to premature conclusion about what is in store for the u.s. economy. i don't think it's going to be necessary to cut rates. >> by one market measure, investors put the probability of another rate hike this year at zero. something else she said is interesting. the job market is still strong. that is a really interesting
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development. they think wages will rise. they forecast wages to rise. >> that is great to see as well. what does kobe bryant hate about his nba farewell tour? the lakers stink. cleveland and lebron james got to say good-bye last night. andy scholes with the bleacher report next. your child's breakfast is getting a makeover. one cereal brand is hoping better ingredients leads to better sales. cristina alesci goes inside the test kitchens for more. >> reporter: cereal. sales are slipping and companies are cutting sugar and replacing artificial colors. are these changes making cereal less processed? that question led me to a test kitchen in minneapolis. this tiny kitchen is where a multibillion dollar business experiments with cereal.
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kate gallagher is reengineering tricks. for the first time in 50 years, colors come from natural sources. why go through all that trouble? >> we had to start a number of years ago as we heard from consumers they not like what they saw in the ingredients. >> reporter: the backlash of artificial ingredients is hitting cereal makers where it hurts. the bottom line. the answer? ditch artificial colors for natural ones. >> what we are seeing today is very different than consumers telling us years ago. they wanted it to taste different and brighter colors. >> reporter: i want my cereal greener? >> i think kids were telling us that. parents, that wasn't on their radar screen back in the day. now things have changed. >> i feel better with the new recipe and part of it is not because i think the old recipe is unsafe or bad, but because i really value teaching my kids where food comes from.
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all right. riddle me this. are the golden state warriors the best nba team ever? if you go by the first half, then yeah. >> we have andy scholes with the bleacher report. >> good morning. most teams hit the all-star break. the warriors are 48-4. that's the best first half start in nba history. they were in phoenix last night. check this out. two suns players get into a
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shoving match three minutes into the game. the warriors will do that to you. check out steph curry in the third quarter. warriors win this. 112-104. they are one win ahead of the '96 bulls pace the year they won 72 games. kobe bryant. >> kobe and lebron meeting for the final time ever last night in cleveland. the crowd chanting kobe throughout the night. first laker possession. kobe knocking down the jumper. this one's all lebron after that. he took over. the cavaliers won 120-111. kobe left the game with 40 seconds left. watch kobe and lebron embracing on the court one last time. peyton manning on "the tonight show with jimmy fallon"
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last night. peyton did not give any hints on whether he was retiring, but had fun with magic johnson in a game of egg russian roulette. >> good to see you, buddy. oh! >> i don't know. >> oh! >> there you have it. magic johnson is the egg russian roulette challenger. >> i think this would be a great game for you two to play one morning. >> cheat sheets, first of all. i have to ask, do you think the golden state warriors are the best team of all time? >> the most fun team to watch of all time. i'll tell you that. if they go 73-9, john, they will be the best team of all time. >> i agree with your answer.
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i never had so much fun watching a non celtics basketball team. something else to watch. politics. hillary clinton and bernie sanders hours away from the face-off in milwaukee. how that debate will go next. but i only had a salad. it was a buffalo chicken salad. salad. rheumatoid arthritis like me... and you're talking to a rheumatologist about a biologic, this is humira. this is humira helping to relieve my pain and protect my joints from further damage. this is humira helping me reach for more. doctors have been prescribing humira for more than 10 years. humira works for many adults. it targets and helps to block a specific source of inflammation that contrubutes to ra symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal
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what a critical night for democrats in the race for president. bernie sanders and hillary clinton take the debate stage. a pbs debate that airs on cnn. hillary clinton needs to turn things around. south carolina turning into a battlefield for republicans running for president. the new attacks as the race shrinks. welcome back to "early start." i'm christine romans. >> i'm john berman. we are hours away from the showdown for democrats. the debate will air on pbs and
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cnn tonight. after high profile meeting with al sharpton in harlem, bernie sanders hit the late show with stephen colbert. he brought up the issue of racial oppression. >> those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable is what john kennedy said. if your answer is not the answer, is violent revolution inevitable? >> i certainly hope not. i hope and what the goal of this campaign is about look at the civil rights movement and women's movement and gay moment. when people come together, we can accomplish enormous things. >> the debate in milwaukee at 9:00 p.m. correspondent joe johns has the latest. >> reporter: john and christine, the folks on milwaukee and the
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debate tonight with bernie sanders and hillary clinton. it is so important because the former secretary of state lost momentum in the drubbing she took in new hampshire. she is already trying to make changes to the campaign to appeal to younger voters. bernie sanders will try to build on fund raising success and the big win in new hampshire to show he's not a one-state wonder. a lot riding on the debate tonight. at the same time, the candidates are looking toward the next time the voters go to the polls. the pivot to south carolina is a challenge for the candidates because of the demographics. african-american voters with big influence there. interesting bernie sanders didn't just fly right to south carolina after his big win. he went to harlem to meet with reverend al sharpton. sharpton was not issuing endorsements at this point. he is waiting to meet with hillary clinton. in talking with someone familiar with sharpton's thinking, he has concerns about both candidates. there continue to be questions
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about whether sanders can actually do the things he's talked about on the campaign trail. my understanding is while it all sounds good, there's skepticism whether sanders can deliver. and misgivings about hillary clinton, too. she polls well with minorities, there with questions about things bill clinton did as president that could affect hillary's campaign. wounds have not healed over the rhetoric and sometimes divisive battle in the primary in 2008. bill clinton seen as going a little too far at times. the signing of the welfare reform bill as president and the crime bill that led to higher rates of incarceration. bill clinton said he regrets that, but the source said the question is whether the african-american community is going to take oops, i'm sorry for an answer. today, the focus on milwaukee and latest face-off with the candidates in that debate. john and christine.
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>> joe johns, thank you so much. the democratic presidential debate sponsored by pbs airs tonight. you can see it here on cnn and local pbs station. live at 9:00 p.m. eastern. joining us to figure out what will happen tonight to break down this crucial action, cnn political reporter tom lobianco. tom, this is the first day, the first event of the rest of our political lives in the democratic race. bernie sanders and hillary clinton out of iowa and new hampshire. two states that are very white and very liberal. now casie facing the rest of th country. how will it play out? >> sanders was prepping this throughout new hampshire. talking about where the individual freedoms and individual rights. a lot of the old civil rights. civil rights movement, women's
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rights movement. he has been talking about this for a while. clinton, in an interesting way, in her closing speech on tuesday night, was sounding almost like sanders talking about income inequality. you can see them moving to their weaknesses. in nevada and south carolina, they will be two incredibly important tests. real major gauges of whether or not these guys will go the distance. it's incredibly important. tonight's going to be the first time they appear on stage head-to-head post-new hampshire in that check on the minority vote to see where they are. what is their message and what do they think will work there? >> when you leave iowa and new hampshire, those are two very small unique states. a lot of times you hear people say they have out sized influence of what happens next.
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different messages and electorates going forward. i want you polito listen to whay carney said yesterday. listen. >> i don't think there is any doubt that he wants hillary to win the nomination and believes she would be the best candidate in the fall and the most effective as president and carrying forward what he achieved. >> the president would like hillary clinton carrying forward his legacy. for some of the sanders' voters and supporters, they don't necessarily want a continuation of the last eight years of president obama. they want a revolution. >> right. that's right. the entrance polls from iowa and exit polls from new hampshire, all with the interesting questions. the gauge of what do you think of the president. voters going with clinton said yes, we like the direction. keep going. the voters who are going with sanders said we like the direction and more of it. we want it more liberal.
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so that's what they want. bill press is one of the big sanders surrogates out there in the liberal movement. he said he wrote that book saying there is disappointment on the left with obama. you can see that in that base for sanders. >> not much disappointment among the minority community with president obama. to the extent he is willing to put his thumb on the scales and say more kind things about hillary clinton. it could help in the next few weeks as many of these states have a disproportionately high minority vote. it is interesting to see. hillary clinton was not on the campaign trail and not in public yesterday. a full day off meeting with advisers. tom, i'm curious, do you think we will see a change on the stage from her tonight? >> there have been questions on the leadership in her campaign.
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you know, it's a good question. how do they change the message? axelrod had the funny tweet a couple days ago. he said at what point do you stop questioning the advisers and start questioning the principle in the races? you know, she has to do something. she is already starting to make that adjustment on tuesday night. the message adjustment. you know it was very interesting when she said she wanted to see small dollar donations from supporters. it wasn't the donation blast that sanders got on tuesday night. acknowledgment she has to play across the board. she has to start talking more income inequality. that's her weakness. she is playing to it. >> let's quickly talk about the gop before we let you go. we will have this democratic debate tonight, but the gop with ted cruz. he wants it to be a two-man
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race. listen. >> i think at this point it is becoming more and more a two-man race between me and donald trump and what we're seeing is conservatives uniting behind our campaign. if conservatives continue to unite, we will win the nomination and that is also how we win the general. >> there are seven people in the two-man race. still a crowded field even with two out now. >> right. not quite mono e mono. he needs it that way. if it ends up being a three-way ultimately, rubio looked like a real threat. when it is a three-way, it is easier for donald trump to walk away with it. if it is cruz locking it in, he stands a much better path. his path is much clearer. he needs it and wants it desperately. south carolina is crucial in his game plan. >> crucial. that's a new headline.
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crucial. >> cruz campaign patenting it right now. tom, thanks. breaking overnight. the fbi moves in on the protesters in the oregon wildlife refuge. an arrest has been made. we have details next.
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the nation's top health officials testify at the senate hearing where lawmakers are considering $1.8 billion from president obama to fight the zika virus. two babies in brazil died from microcephaly. the six-week standoff at oregon wildlife refuge may soon be over. the fbi surrounded the compound.
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it appears the armed protesters plan to leave the refuge and surrender to agents this morning. meantime, clivan bundy, the father of the protest leader, arrested at the portland airport hours ago by the fbi. it is not known what the charges are, but a post on the facebook for the bundy's nevada ranch says he was on his way to the scene of that standoff. the federal government is suing ferguson, missouri in an effort to force reform in the police department and court system. it comes in response to city officials rejection of the deal with the justice department. the deal negotiated after a report found widespread racial discrimination throughout ferguson's law enforcement. the city became a symbol of problems with policing and race following the shooting of unarmed teenager michael brown in 2014. that officer involved in the shooting was not charged. the flint water crisis front and center on capitol hill.
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michigan governor rick snyder did not testify. he asked the state legislature for $195 million for funding for flint. the city of flint is now under a boil water advisory after a water main break. time for an early start on your money. dow suffering through a four-day losing streak. it will be five thanks to a big drop in oil prices. huge losses in europe and asia. drivers will save hundreds of dollars at the gas pump thanks to the crash in oil. now travelers are seeing lower airfares. airfares dropped 6.2% in the third quarter last year. the cheapest since 2010. increased competition from sprint and frontier have major airlines dropping prices to stay competitive. cost of jet fuel is down $1 over the last year. that allows more flexibility in
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ticket prices. happening now, the u.s. and world leaders pushing for a cease-fire in syria. the civilian death toll skyrocketing as air strikes increase. team coverage breaking it all down next. was engineered... help sense danger before you do. because when you live to innovate, you innovate to live. the all-new audi q7. a higher form of intelligence has arrived.
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secretary of state john kerry calling for an immediate cease-fire in syria. he is in germany for a meeting of major world powers. there is growing concern on two fronts over russia's full throttle air support for the regime offenses. it is triggering a refugee crisis. we are covering these developing stories. let's start with nic robertson in munich. good morning, nic. >> reporter: good morning, christine. you really can't under estimate the importance of the talks
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here. the peace talks ongoing in geneva last week barely got off the ground. it has been put on pause because of the russian air strikes in and around aleppo. assad causing so many casualties on the ground and they could not continue with the talks in good conscious. what you have here later today, you have those 18 countries and groups of countries in the european union and arab league to sit down to try to figure out a way to push this forward. we are hearing from the russians now and proposing a cease-fire. a cease-fire which should begin on the 1st of march. the opposition is saying if russia is serious about a cease-fire, then let's have it now. i'm hearing probably the emphasis in the talks later tonight is going to be to put
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pressure on russia to bring down the timeline if they are serious about the cease-fire to get it going as quickly as possible to get the talks up and running. a lot of concern if this period of a cease-fire is allowed to wait for a couple of weeks, then the opposition is probably not going to be well placed to come back into the peace talks. there is a lot of focus, a lot of hope here that all of those other nations that will facing off around the table with russia and with iran that they can pressure them to get the talks going soon by bringing that cease-fire forward. christine. >> nic, in munich, thank you for that. those russian air strikes in syria are coming close to the turkish border. destroying or uprooting the lives of thousands of civilians. for more on that part are the story, we turn to senior correspondent arwa damon. arwa.
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>> reporter: good morning. if you remember when the russian air strikes allowed the syrian regime to cut off a vital supply line from turkey to rebel held areas of aleppo, they not only hampered supply routes for rebel fighters, they also caused a massive humanitarian crisis when it comes to trying to get much-needed food supplies in, but also causing tens of thousands to flee toward turkey's borders. since the regime managed to take over and cut off that supply route, they cut rebel held areas in half and they have been moving closer toward turkey's borders. in the last 24 to 48 hours, air strikes happening a ten-minute drive from the turkey border causing more people to flee. meanwhile, turkey says it has an open-door policy, but the gates remain closed. in the aftermath of the air
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strikes, it is heart breaking and devastating in the syrian war zone. a youtube video showed a girl bloodied and shrapnel in her head. she tried to speak, but couldn't. this is one example of the countless lives of the ongoing fighting which has been claiming. many are not putting a lot of hope in the cease-fire talks will actually amount to anything. the opposition fighters say they have been bestraytrayed too man times by the international community. the syrian community has massive support from russia and including the iraqi militia and the vital support that it does get from iran. >> arwa damon, thank you for that report. let's get an early start on your money. a drop in oil is spending global stock markets tumbling. crude to $27 a barrel.
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dow down almost 300 points. european stocks are plummeting. hong kong stocks are plummeting as well as they return from the holiday. among all that, flint, michigan now has a housing crisis. it is now five times the average of the nation. 1 in 14 houses is vacant. in the houses in the city center, one in five homes sits empty. the housing market hit hard in the recession. now signs the water crisis is straining the housing recovery. 57 minutes past the hour. bernie sanders and hillary clinton facing off tonight on the debate stage. "new day" picks up reporting now. >> hours from now, bernie sanders and hillary clinton face-off in a key debate.
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>> this country is supposed to be a nation. >> i think we signalled that he supports secretary clinton's candidacy. >> good your own way. the revolution is possible. you are the revolution. >> i would go home if i didn't think i could compete. >> the only candidate who can beat donald trump is me. >> jeb has no foreign policy experience. none. >> the last thing we need is another bush. he's a low energy person. >> you are looking at the guy that should be president of the united states. because they written me off in this campaign. isil leaders are determined to strike the homeland. >> and the attempted directed attacks in u.s. in 2016. >> announcer: this is "new day" with chris cuomo and alisyn camerota and michaela pereira. >> john berman pondering his
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remarks. good morning. it is thursday, february 11th. alisyn was hurt in a bar fight and john joins us. critical for hillary clinton if she plans to take back momentum from sanders. what will this rumored tone shift be? >> the candidates hitting a new battle ground in south carolina bracing for a hard fight. the gop field narrowing to seven. chris christie and carly fiorina ending their bids. how the contest will change the race? we begin with our correspondent joe johns with us with the look at the race. >> reporter: good morning. all eyes on milwaukee as the candidates prepare to go head-to-head for the first time after the first in the nation primary. bernie sanders looking to maintain his momentum and show he is not just a one-state wonder and for hillary clinton. it is a chance to try to change
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>> reporter: bernie sanders raising over $6 million in the 24 hours after polls closed in new hampshire. gaining momentum before tonight's crucial pbs democratic presidential debate. descending on new york city in a victory lap celebrating his sweeping win in tuesday's primary bringing his anti-establishment message to the late show with stephen colbert. >> our campaign finance system, our election system, and our economy is essentially owned and controlled by a relatively small number of people whose greed, in my view, is really wreaking havoc with the middle class of this country. >> reporter: and to daytime talker, "the view." >> this country is supposed to be a nation of fairness. and we're not seeing that fairness. >> reporter: meanwhile, hillary clinton laying comparatively low after her crushing defeat. no longer the undisputed democratic front-runner, tonight's critical debateou


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