tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN April 14, 2021 9:00pm-10:00pm PDT
good evening protestors are out again tonight on the streets of brooklyn center, minnesota. city that, once again, is under curfew starting three hours from now. demonstrations come, after another fast-moving day in the wake of daunte wright's killing by police, during a traffic stop on sunday. yesterday, saw the police chief resign, along with the officer who fired the single-fatal shot. today, that former officer, kim potter, was reactarrested and cd with second-degree manslaughter. she was booked into the hennepin county jail but her prosecution is being conducted in nearby-washington county to avoid conflict of interest or the paern of any. potter's home, meantime, is now surrounded with fencing and jersey barriers. speaking today, alongside the mothers of trayvon martin, stefan clark, eric garner, attorney ben crump, questioned kim potter's judgment from the beginning. >> it boggles the mind, why she
would pull him over, in the first place. or, is it, the rules are set aside, when you are really being targeted for driving while black? because when you get down to the crux of the matter, when you look at what this officer did, she over-policed from every point. in a separate statement, crump cast doubt on the idea that she shot daunte wright, accidentally, after mistaking her gun for a taser. i am quoting him now. a 26-year veteran of the force knows the difference between a taser and firearm. and according to the prosecutor's office, the particular way potter carried the two weapons made it especially hard to mistake one for the other. her taser on the left in what is called the straight-draw position. this means she would have been forced to use the taser left handed and her gun with her right. looking at body-cam video, you can see a piece of paper in what appears to be her left hand.
as the officers struggle with wright. whatever training or intentions, if that is, indeed, her left hand. but she proceeds as to think she is got a taser in her right hand. even though according to the washington county attorney, she could have only drawn her gun with it. she shouts, taser, taser, taser. and then, fires the gun. just to underscore how quickly this all unfolded. here is the video, in real time. >> i'll tase you! taser, taser, taser! shit! i just shot him. >> you can hear her using the expletive, then saying i just got him. late today, potter posted bail, which was set at $100,000. her first-court appearance is scheduled for tomorrow afternoon. miguel marquez joins us now from brooklyn center. so what's been the reaction to
the charge against former-officer potter? >> reporter: there is relief, certainly, that she has been charged and been charged so quickly. the fact that the -- she resigned, that the -- that the police chief resigned, and these charges have come have all been met with elation by the crowd that has gathered here for a fourth night now but they also say it's not enough. they want not only her charge with -- with greater crimes, essentially. murder charges is -- is what they would like to see. but they want all those everyday transactions between african-americans, people of color, and police to cease. this case, like the george floyd case before it, like so many before that, has just become a rallying cry for people to show up here, night after night after night. anderson. >> and are more protests expected tonight? >> i want to show you a little bit what's going on here. they are. there are more protests expected tonight. it is a bit of a rally, a bit of
an organizational event. they are making speeches. there is music. they brought food in tonight so that people have something to eat. the weather is a little bit nicer, than it was yesterday, with the snow. but i want to show you, sort of, what brooklyn center police station looks like tonight. protestors, along the fence. the -- the sheriff's office is, again, taking the -- the lead in all of this. and then, several-different levels of sheriff's deputies, in full-riot gear, who are protecting the police station. the curfew, as you said, goes into effect, in a couple of hours or a few hours, and we will see. they are -- they are handing out a legal number because they understand that many of the people who are coming here want to have their voices heard. but many more, that are here, they want to take it directly to the police. and they want to be here every single night, they say, until that equality is at a much-greater level. anderson. >> miguel marquez. miguel, thanks very much.
joining us now, former-minneapolis chief of police. chief, thanks for coming on. when you look at the body-camera v video, i am wondering what your reaction is to how this shooting unfolded? >> thanks for having me. i first want to say my heart goes not only to the wright family but i have family and friends still in the minneapolis, minnesota, area. so, i am there with them. when i look at the body camera footage, i think, to myself, how rapidly things unfolded. and how, to me, it highlights the need for police actions and for those in policing to, really, look at the ability to slow down. and to have some critical thinking. i realize, things happen quickly. but i -- i felt like there was other things that, potentially, could have been done. the idea of shooting a taser, even, let alone a handgun inside a vehicle has had historically-bad outcomes.
>> it seems like there were a number of mistakes. even just procedural mistakes. even the having this encounter take place, in front of an open door of a vehicle. makes it easy for anybody to get back into the vehicle, to drive off, as -- as , it seems like, this young man was trying to do. that's not really standard procedure, is it? >> no, it's not. i mean, there certainly seemed to be some tactical errors. i mean, generally, we would want to bring a subject behind the vehicle or back to the squad car. i believe the engine was still running. we would want to make sure that the -- the car was turned off. we usually ask the drivers to shut off the vehicle, when we approach them.
>> how, in your view, could a 26-year police-department veteran mistake a gun for a taser. especially, if, indeed, they were carrying the taser on the opposite side of the body? because you heard the wright family attorney, ben crump, says he thinks this was intentional. >> yeah. i mean, officers do -- they are trained to carry it on the opposite side. that's where it is. it's very intense training, the taser training. officers are actually shot with the taser so day know how it feels. they get recertified every year. clearly, it's a different color than your handgun. but the unfortunate reality, and i do believe it might have popped up this time. i don't know. i have more questions than answers just like everybody else. but it's muscle memory. and there is the potential that 26 years of, probably, reaching for your handgun, versus not as many years with a taser, is the
only thing that i can think of that would impact somebody to -- to make that mistake. she's a field-training officer. that's probably on her mind. she's -- she's responsible for everything that's happening. and -- and so, you know, like i said, i have those same questions, myself. it -- it is really hard to understand for anybody. >> yeah. the -- this tragedy, obviously, happened not far from the courthouse where derek chauvin is on trial for the murder of george floyd. what do you say to those who wonder if there is some essential problem or inherent problem in police training in minnesota? and -- and -- you know, writ large. >> so, you know, in -- in minneapolis and in the minnesota area, we, actually, have highly-trained officers. we are all very versed at best practices. we are very progressive in our training. and i think it goes beyond training. it goes beyond the classroom. it is, what is happening, from the time we train our officers
to when they are out on the street? when there -- the police culture, i think, there is something to be said about that. there's always been kind of this conversation of, well, that's the classroom. this -- this is real life. this is where things happen swiftly. and i think we need to look at what does transpire on the street, versus training? because we have incredible training in the state of minnesota. >> the mayor of brooklyn center says that none of the officers who work in that community actually live in the community. we have seen that, obviously, in a lot of places around the country. lot of cities. how problematic is that, in terms of establishing relationships, trust with -- with residents? >> well, i think, there's nothing, to date. i mean, we have really looked at coming up with ways to incentivize officers to move within the city. but there is nothing concrete that really says that an officer living in the city that they patrol makes them more caring, more empathetic. we're looking for good-quality
officers that have high levels of character integrity. and i think, we don't want to, necessarily, make the pool of candidates, those good-quality candidates, smaller because we're requiring them to live in the city. and i think if we could correlate that, that would be one thing. but that is, i don't think, as much of a more concrete solution in the situation. >> chief, i appreciature e your time. thank you. >> just ahead. the chauvin trial. the latest from the courtroom, today. defense witnesses claims suggesting that heart problems and even car-exhaust fumes could have played a part in george floyd's death. we will tell you what the prosecution said about that, as well. next, more on the training police get that is supposed to prevent police from thinking they are reaching for a taser, and, instead, drawing a gun. >> show me your hands. show me your hands. drop the knife! last time. taser, taser, taser! later, the one question that left matt gaetz speechless.
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appears to be something going on in brooklyn center, right now. let's go back to miguel marquez. miguel, what's happening? >> yeah. the picture that you are looking at now is, sort of, the front gate to the police station here. and you can see, how the protestors have sort of -- some of them -- most of the protestors are listening to speeches and a rally, not just too far away. but many of them have sort of crowded up to this front gate. sort of, the weak spot. that's why they have this big-military vehicle there. this is the sheriff's office. the hennepin county sheriff's office. you know, the way that they cleared protestors last night has only, in some ways, angered them more. about 60 individuals were -- were rolled up and arrested last night. many of them, are still in jail today. the -- the -- the sheriff's personnel, in full-riot gear, have now moved up to that gate. and this is, very much, how it started last night. this is earlier than it started last night. but this is, very much, the same way that it started last night.
with this particular area, being the focus of protestors' ire and anger. and then, the pepper spray will start and the flash bangs. and they will start pushing them back, as they feel that the station here is being threatened. what they do want to avoid, at all costs, is a repeat of what happened last summer at precinct three for the minneapolis police, when protestors took that over and burned it down. so, they have a very, very heavy-police presence, as heavy, if not -- if not heavier than they had last night at this station, to ensure that protestors aren't able to get through these barriers. and -- and have any sort of threat to the station, itself. anderson. >> they -- they pushed the curfew back, correct? >> they -- it is 10:00 p.m., local. last night, was a bit confusing, because different cities. now, this is not minneapolis. this is northwestern minneapolis, but it's a different city. different cities put them in for different times. tonight, it is 10:00 p.m. for brooklyn center's.
other areas, other -- other neighborhoods, other cities, may have slightly different times that they are on curfew. there's no statewide curfew. but, it did cause some confusion because some of them started at 8:00. some of them started at 9:00. some of them started at 10:00. for brooklyn center, tonight, it starts at 10:00 p.m. but they have already made announcements that they need to step back. that this is an unlawful assembly. they are blocking traffic here on humboldt. it's a major, you know, thoroughfare in this area. and there's clear concern that these protests are not going to end. the protestors are saying, they will be back, every single night, and, you know, the -- the -- the death of daunte wright has really just solidified the anger at police. and years and mistrust in communities at the worst-possible time, as the horrific evidence in the chauvin
trial has been telecast every single day. >> yeah. miguel marquez, thank you. appreciate it. just a reminder, this all comes after ex-officer kim potter was charged with second-degree manslaughter. those charges being filed today. even if, at very best, her use of her service weapon, instead of a taser, was simply a horrible, horrible mistake. it would so represent a failure of training or procedure, or both. our gary tuchman reports on how police departments do try to prevent the next incident, like this. >> reporter: this is the gun range at the camden county, new jersey, police department. >> all right. go ahead. >> threat. >> taser, taser, taser. >> reporter: and this is where taser training is, also, conducted. and while, some police departments have different protocols, this is what's most commonly done. >> if you are a righty, your gun is always on your right side. your taser is always on your left side. >> correct. and vice versa. if you are left-handed shooter, right, your taser is going to be on your right-hand side.
>> you never have both weapons on the same side? >> absolutely not. >> reporter: you are about to enter the department's virtual-relat virtual-reality deescalation studio. this is the scenario training these cops do with on-screen actors. do they use their guns? or their tasers? which weigh less and are yellow, helping to differentiate them. this is a cafeteria. >> it's good. anybody else in here with ya? >> reporter: police quickly learn there is a woman with a knife. it's a threat but not an imminently-deadly threat. >> last time. taser, taser, taser! >> reporter: and then, the man who had been on the ground pops up with a gun. >> suspect. suspect. >> hands, hands. threat, threat, threat. >> reporter: the deadly threat leads to the officer using his gun. all, part of the critical decision-making that is emphasized here. >> the sanctitity of life and t preservation of life is the core of what we do. >> much heavier on my right side. very clearly, much heavier.
>> reporter: i am then given some of the training a new police recruit would get. >> sir, we are here to help you. >> remember, introduce yourself. >> my name is gary tuchman. i'm with the police. happy to help you, sir. >> reporter: we are told this man has threatened to stab a child. >> we're here to help you out, sir. >> active listening. active listening. see what he is saying. >> i'm going to listen to what you are saying, sir. tell me what you are saying and then we'll help you. >> you mess with me. i know you are. >> no. no. >> you know who i am? you better back off. >> sir, we're not messing with you. we're not messing with you, sir. >> you know who i am? >> who -- sir. >> you don't know who i am, do ya? >> sir, we want to help you, please. please. we want to diffuse the situation. sir, please. [ bleep ]. [ bleep ]. taser, taser, taser. >> okay. no gun here, no gun.
that's a taser, everybody. we do it right? >> you did it right. at this time, you would walk up to the individual and secure him. >> okay. so right now -- >> so, he is okay, though? >> he's okay. >> and that was the right way to handle it? >> that was the right way to handle it. >> reporter: the training is intense, and part of the training says the chief, is never to use a gun or a taser, unless you absolutely have to. >> if you identify the person, they get away. you are going to still find them. it's still time. slow things down. it's going to be okay. everything's going to be all right. >> reporter: gary tuchman, cnn, camden, new jersey. >> lot can happen in the heat of the moment. perspective now from our legal and law enforcement team. charles ramsey, former-top cop in the district of columbia. also, cnn legal analyst, and former federal prosecutor, laura coates. chief ramsey, so you see gary's piece. i am assuming a lot of that is very familiar to you. what do you say to those asking how an officer, with more than two decades of experience, could get it wrong like this? between a taser and a gun.
>> well, nothing's going to be failsafe but i think you see from the training, the training is pretty intense. so, you know, this is a situation where i don't know how much experience she has in really dealing with really, highly-critical situations or not. but it was negligence. i mean, the -- to mistake your taser and firearm is not that easy to do. you can see that the weapon looks different, it feels different, the weight is different. it's on a different side of your body. you know, i -- i don't know how she wound up doing it. i don't think it was intentional, only because if, when you listen to audio, you can hear her reaction when she fires. but that doesn't take away from the negligence that took place during the encounter. plus, all the tactical mistakes that were made, that actually led up to the event, to begin with. >> laura, did the -- the speed, with which prosecutors announced the second-degree manslaughter charge surprise you? i mean, what is the bar that they will have to meet for a conviction? >> well, frankly, they are going
to have to meet this bar of saying the person actually created an unreasonable risk, and then consciously disregarded the risk. and that's going to be important here. talking about intentionality. but it's really about consciously. and so, there is a lot going to be made about whether her oh, expletive, comment after shooting was indicative of an accident, or not. what steps, beforehand, created the unreasonable risk? and how likely it was she truly did accidentally fail to distinguish her taser from her gun. it's not unheard of for a prosecutor to be able to make quick assessments but it often doesn't end the inquiry for prosecutors. the initial charge might just be the initial charge. it doesn't have to be the absolute ceiling. if more information comes out to suggest that this was, in fact, intentional. or not. simply, accidental, as the now-resigned police chief would have us believe. they may be able to develop more about that incident. but again, this word, consciously, to disregard it. to consciously do something, in a way, is going to really lead the prosecution, here, because
it's similar to intentionality. but it's, more so, about whether you were aware, and made a decision to disregard the risk that you created. that's a bit of a bar. >> do you think prosecutors charged the case appropriately, laura? >> you know, of the available laws, that are available in minnesota right now. there's not really a pure negligence, when you don't have this culpable negligence standard of conscious disregard. you could have lower charges. in fact, the person who shot and killed philando castile, several years ago, was charged with not only second-degree manslaughter, but also, firing his firearm with reckless disregard. now, he was acquitted on all of those charges. but there are available things. but right now, the evidence we have? this prosecutor finds this prudent but i doubt it's the end of it. >> just, chief ramsey, just quickly, how -- if someone -- i mean, when you hear someone's been on the force for 26 years. does that, automatically, mean that they do have a lot of
experience in actual, you know, policing on -- on the street? >> no, it doesn't. i mean, the -- one, this is a smaller jurisdiction. i don't know anything about it but they only have 49 officers. how often they're in high-stress situations, i really don't know. i couldn't tell you. but the length of time on the job, depending on your assignment, things that you've experienced during that period of time. you could have an officer with three years working in some areas that could have experienced equal to somebody in a slower jurisdiction with 20 years. so, it -- it all depends on what they've encountered during that period of time. >> chief ramsey, appreciate it. laura coates, thank you. laura is going to stay with us because we want to shift focus to the trial of the former-minnesota police officer in the killing of george floyd. derek chauvin's attorneys called their first-medical expert, today. we'll discuss which, if any, of his arguments could influence jurors when we come back.
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derek chauvin's attorneys today called their first medical expert witness to rebut prosecutors' case as they sought to place blame on george floyd, himself. omar jimenez has details. >> reporter: day two in the trial of former-minneapolis police officer derek chauvin and the topic shifted, from use of force, to cause of death for george floyd. >> did you form, in your
opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, what you thought was the principal cause of mr. floyd's death? >> yes. >> what is that? >> cardiac arrhythmia, due to hypertensive atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease during restraint. >> reporter: in other words, a bad heart while being restrained by police. no mention of asphyxiation, as other doctors have testified. or low levels of oxygen, brought on by being chest down on the street, handcuffed, with the weight of three officers. dr. david fowler went on to testify about, what he thought were several, possible, contributing factors to george floyd's death. >> so, we have a heart that's vulnerable because it's too big. there are certain drugs, that are present in his system. that make it -- put it at risk of an arrhythmia. >> reporter: he added the potential for carbon monoxide from the squad car's exhaust. >> it is an extremely toxic gas.
>> reporter: fowler also testified the force applied by the knee of chauvin would not have, directly, impacted george floyd's ability to survive. >> is it your opinion that, mr. chauvin's knee, in any way, impacted the structures of mr. floyd's neck? >> no, it did not. none of the vital structures. were in the area where the knee appeared to be, from the videos. >> reporter: but outside of this trial, dr. david fowler faces his own-legal issues. among others, accused, in a federal lawsuit filed, of covering up police responsibility in the 2018 death of 19-year-old anton black in maryland. and falsely, attributing the cause of death to a heart condition, bipolar disorder, and/or other-natural causes. thereby, blaming the victim for his own death, and obscuring official responsibility, according to the complaint. a representative from fowler's legal team told cnn, our case is in litigation and we cannot comment. back in this trial, during
cross-examination, prosecutors push back on the doctor's assertions. >> it's a yes or no question. >> yes. >> reporter: they specifically focused on the cause of death. the central argument in this trial. >> if a person dies, as a result of low oxygen, that person's, also, going to die, ultimately, of a fatal arrhythmia, right? >> correct. every one of us in this room will have a fatal arrhythmia, at some point. >> right, because that's kind of how you go. >> yes. >> reporter: taking the witness to a familiar-bottom line. >> do you feel that mr. floyd should have been given immediate-emergency attention to try to reverse the cardiac arrest? >> as a physician, i would agree. >> are you critical of the fact that he wasn't given immediate-emergency care when he went into cardiac arrest? >> as a physician, i would agree. >> reporter: now, in the courtroom, by all accounts, jurors were taking lots of notes on dr. fowler's testimony. though, i should mention, they did not hear about what we
learned in regards to dr. fowler's prior controversy. but nonetheless, they seemed engaged. at times, even talking to each other during sidebars. and this was really the defense's opportunity to try and counter medical witness, after medical witness, that prosecutors brought to the stand over the course of last week and into this one, anderson. >> omar jimenez, appreciate it. perspective now on today's testimony from two legal experts. back with us, former-federal prosecutor and cnn senior legal analyst, laura coates. joining us is criminal defense attorney, mark o'mara. laura, obviously, defense is trying to do anything possible to convince jurors that something other than derek chauvin's knee led to george floyd's death. did what you heard today seem credible compared to the prosecution's case, thus far? >> absolutely not. i mean, i found myself saying, are we two hours, three-hours in, and we, still, have not heard any mention of the use of force? when you fail to address the very obvious elephant in the room, in front of a jury. if you are an expert.
you fatally undermine your credibility. not to mention, the idea of suggesting alternative theories of death, including carbon-monoxide poisoning, because george floyd's head was near an exhaust pipe. without this expert ever examining whether the car was turned on. whether it was emitting anything. and by the way, it wasn't as if george floyd, even if that were true, that he was down on the ground voluntarily. and so, you had these moments where, even obvious concessions that could have been made, led for the jury to have the opportunity to question, if this person's unwilling to, essentially, call, you know, the ball and a strike? then, what else can't we trust this person on? and that's a really stark contrast from what we saw last week with the pulmonologist, cardiologist, the forensic pathologist, and the medical examiner. >> mark, how did you think this defense witness acquitted himself? >> well, we have to remember that the defense's job, here, any-defense attorney's job is to highlight the potential of reasonable doubt. so, this testimony, from one perspective, is literally
changing three, four, five-degrees, a view of the very same facts. it didn't change the facts very much. he gave his interpretation of it. and if the defense can do their job and saying, look, we're not going to blow out of the water, two weeks of very strong, state witnesses. but, here are some alternatives. and interestingly, the carbon monoxide coming to the forefront. and again, is -- it's going to be viewed as a cheap shot, without evidence? maybe. but the defense' job is to get one or several of those jurors to think, i have a doubt, now, as to how it may have fully happened. what the true cause of death was. and here is the reason i can attach to that doubt. the defense does not need to prove up their case. they need to show reasonable doubt. and that is where he's starting to try and go, today. >> laura, i want to play another portion of the testimony of this dr. fowler. let's play it. >> in my opinion, mr. floyd had
a sudden-cardiac arrhythmia or cardiac arrhythmia, due to his atherosclerotic and hypertensive-heart disease. or you can write that down, multiple-different ways. during his restraint and subdual by the police or restraint by the police. >> i mean, it -- it's interesting, to me, that he called floyd's death sudden. obviously, you know, the jury knows how long mr. floyd was restrained and on the ground for. >> well, that's what i mean. the idea of word choice being important. and not only was the word sudden important, in the context of things. because there is nothing sudden about 9 minutes and 29 seconds of contemplative action when someone's imploring you to stop. for multiple minutes, four or more, the person's not even breathing and not conscious. and by all accounts of the emt, appeared to be dead when they arrived.
the other aspect of it is that word, during, though, anderson. did you hear him say the word, during? as if, somehow, there was a coincidental occurrence here that, at this exact moment in time, it wasn't george floyd who was in the wrong place, at the wrong time. under the knee of derek chauvin. it was derek chauvin, who was at the wrong place in the wrong time because george floyd was going to die, at this moment, anyway. that word, during, rubs people the wrong way because it's so disingenuous and belies the logic of this case. >> laura coates, mark o'mara, appreciate it. thank you. breaking news up next. cdc advisers just ended an emergency meeting on that pause of the johnson & johnson vaccine. we will tell you what they are saying, when we continue. what about me? an ev for me? what about me? can i get one too? an ev for this princess? what's an ev? and there better be one for me. and what about michelle from michigan? me? what about me? us? will there be an ev for me? me? me? me? ♪
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and founder of the black doctors covid consortium. sanjay, what additional information does the advisory committee want to know before making a recommendation on the johnson & johnson so-called pause? >> yeah. well, so, first of all, this is an advisory committee. so, you know, they -- they would give some recommendations, ultimately, to the cdc. i think, you know, listening in on the meeting. what they really want to sort of figure out is, are there certain things that tie these -- these six women together? are there certain-common denominators? certain medications that they may have been taking? or anything else that may have increased their risk for this. trying to sort of piece this together. but i think, also, more practically speaking, anderson, now that this is out there. clinicians around the country are hearing about it. they are trying to figure out, are there more people out there that may have had the same problem, we just haven't heard about them yet? as one -- as one committee member put it, is this sort of a needle in the haystack or is this the tip of the iceberg?
still, sounds very rare to be clear about that. >> dr. stanford, you started administering the johnson & johnson vaccine, on march 12th, i understand. how has the pause impacted your efforts? and what do you think of the pause? >> well, i think it was the right thing to do. when you see something that can be, potentially, so catastrophic to an individual. and there is an association. you have to dig a little deeper, and make sure there aren't some preventative things we can be doing. for us, we did vaccinate, yesterday. we changed everything on our social media and let people know that we would not be administering johnson & johnson. and to stay tuned for more information, which we will be doing some of that tomorrow. >> and dr. stanford, according to kaiser family foundation poll, vaccine hesitancy among black americans had dropped in recent weeks. and 55% of people polled said they had been vaccinated or planned to be. you started combatting vaccine hesitancy, last fall. are you worried there is going to be, now, more in the days
ahead? >> a little bit. but, you know, yesterday, we still had our typical-700 to a thousand people to get their moderna-second shot and first shot, yesterday. i was going room to room, telling folks about johnson & johnson. and letting them know that we'd have some more information coming out, with educational sessions, the remainder of the week. so people can get their questions answered. >> and, sanjay, we learned today that at least four out of the six women who developed these blood clots were given the wrong treatment, at first. how dangerous was that? >> well, that -- that can be quite dangerous, anderson. i mean, this is a -- this is a complicated problem. the -- the way to sort of think about this is that you have two almost-opposite things happening, at the same time. these blood clot. so, you are getting a -- a collection, a blood clot, in one of the blood vessels that's draining blood away from the brain. so, typically, if you get a clot, you may think, well, let's give blood thinners like heparin because of that clot.
the problem is that you are collecting a lot of the -- the -- the clotting platelets, in one area, so that you're, also, at risk of bleeding in other parts of your body. so, you wouldn't want to give heparin, in this case. it's a lot to absorb, i realize. but your clotting and potentially at risk of bleeding at the same time. >> heparin is a blood thinner? >> heparin is a blood thinner. now, there are other blood thinners which may work better, in this sort of situation. or other types of medications, altogether. it's -- it's -- it's not that common a problem. so, again, i think that was also part of the reason for the pause. to say, hey, look. these cerebral sinus thrombosis. that's the name of it. it needs to be treated in a specific way. let's make sure we are sending a message to clinicians out there so they are reminded of that. >> but, sanjay, and correct me, i am probably wrong about this. but people have -- in covid, in autopsies, they see a lot of blood clots. is that -- >> yes. >> i mean, is that -- are the
blood clots that these few individuals in the johnson & johnson vaccine have been -- is that related to covid? >> well, so, first of all, you're right. the covid, itself, the disease covid is -- is -- is a cause of blood clots. and you have people who have developed deep venus thrombosis in their legs. covid toes. may be a component of blood clots as well. but this is a different sort of blood clot. the -- the -- the location is typically in these blood vessels in the brain. but also, the cause of this blood clot is different. so, you can't sort of lump all these clots together. a lot of people have been saying, look. maybe it's the birth-control pills that increased the propensity for this. possibly, but those typically cause different types of blood clots. >> i see. sanjay, dr. sanford, thank you. appreciate it. good to have you. still to come. what happens when cnn tries to ask congressman matt gaetz about that federal probe. also, new cnn report involving allegations of drugs and payments and house parties
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matt gaetz involving drugs and late-night house parties attended by the florida congressman and local republican. two women in attendance who spoke to cnn said the women were asked to put away their phones to prevent anything being documented. according to receipts reviewed by cnn, gaetz and an associate used digital apps to send hundreds of dollars to at least one woman who attended the parties. associate jill greenberg has been providing information to federal authorities especially on gaetz. he was quiet when cnn caught up with him today. >> congressman, have you spoken with the fbi? have they seized your phone? has the fbi seize your phone? have you shared nude photos on the house floor? that members have told us that you did?
have you spoken to leader mccarthy about the situation about the investigation? the fbi hasn't taken your phone? >> also of interest, investigators in 2018 trip to the bahamas with friends and young women that cnn has previously reported on, politico has new reporting on that. matt duxon shares the byline in the story. what have you learned about gaetz's time in the bahamas? >> most notable about it, i heard in the clip you played there that he wouldn't answer questions about if the feds had seized his phone. they certainly have seized his phone in december. they seized his ex-girlfriend's phone also in december and so that is sort of a new development in the trip to the bahamas back in 2018 is all sort of part of this extended investigation that we're all -- you know, you guys included -- sort of digging through. there was at least five women involved.
they came in and out of orlando and they got stopped by customs in and out. there's several elements and several data points that have helped to sort of put this together based on his cell phone being seized and also that bahamas trip. but there's, you know, obviously still a lot of questions to take a look at. >> he has clearly intimated that he has paid for travel of people he was dating. is that -- i guess that's what authorities, one part of this that authorities would have to figure out, is this it shall are these people he was in a relationship of whatever sort with, or it was this -- a professional relationship? was it a transaction? >> right. well, it's incredibly important to point out that matt gaetz has not been charged with anything at this point. he is being investigated. i don't know necessarily the pushback.
another version of this is that it's not illegal to pay for travel of women that you're dating or seeing in some romantic fashion of age. that is absolutely his version of this. you know, there seems to be other elements and the feds are investigating that story and trying to poke holes in it as we speak. but you're right. the point you just made is certainly valid and that is congressman gaetz's version of it. >> there's also been questions asked about the ages of some of the women on this trip. >> yeah. no, without question. the underlying allegation, the biggest allegation that congressman gaetz is facing is that he had sex with a 17-year-old and there's a trafficking allegation across state lines. sources we have reported that's public in politico stories, sources are saying the women were all over 18, specifically on the bahamas trip. so we're talking about the trip that is to the bahamas in
september of 2018, that is being investigated. we have folks telling us everyone was of age. but whether or not matt gaetz had sexual relations with someone who is under age is part of this investigation. >> and you're saying you have clear reporting that the feds took matt gaetz's cell phone? >> yes, both his cell phone in december of 2020. his cell phone number abruptly changed. at the point we didn't know exactly what that meant. we couldn't quite figure it out. through hindsight, several months later, it's our understanding his cell phone was taken and an ex-girlfriend of his, her cell phone was also taken and seized by the feds as part of this broader investigation, yes. >> any sense of where the feds are in their investigation? >> not at this point, from a timeline perspective. cnn, "the new york times,"
politico have all reported his friend or former friend, joel greenberg, a local florida elections official, is facing serious time in prison and is cooperating with federal investigators. at this point, i think that's the extent to which we know from a timeline perspective. that's kind of where we're at, at this point. >> matt dixon, appreciate your reporting. thank you so much. >> thanks so much. >> president biden announcing america's longest war will soon be over, ordering withdrawal of u.s. troops in afghanistan after 20 years. what some of his senior-most advisers told him before he made his decision when we continue.
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president biden says the last u.s. troops will leave afghanistan on september 11th on the 20th anniversary of the attack of the world trade center that triggered the country's longest war. speaking from the same room that president george w. bush used to announce the war, president biden said no further result will occur by keeping troops there. >> expanding or extending our military presence in afghanistan, hoping to create ideal conditions for the withdrawal and expecting a different result. i'm now the fourth united states president to preside over american troop presence in afghanistan, two republicans, two democrats. i will not pass this responsibility on to a fifth.