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tv   Book Discussion on The Civil Wars of Julia Ward Howe  CSPAN  May 28, 2016 11:45pm-1:01am EDT

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>> good evening. thank you for coming out to this event. i am one of the co-owners of politics and prose. on behalf of our terrific staff, we welcome all of you
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to the event tonight. a few housekeeping matters. most of you have been to events, our guest will speak about her book and then we will take questions at the end. we doend. we do you record these events. we also have c-span hear tonight. if you can make it to the microphone we would be grateful because that makes the audio much more enjoyable for those trying to listen to are not actually physically in the space. if you have a phone or other noisemaking device on your person and you could possibly silence it or make it so that it will make noise we would be grateful for that, and lastly at the end of the event if you would not mind holding up your chairs and put them into the side elaine will find books appear. plenty of copies of front. i think you all know what it looks like. should be happy to sign at the end appear at the table. i also want to.out that we are coming to the end of
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women's history month. it has been a great month for us at the store. we have had terrific events. this one is the highlight. the whole table is dedicated to books about women by women related to women's history up to the front of the store, and we are very happy to be able to celebrate this month with such terrific authors and books. with that, i just want to say what a privilege it is to host tonight. she willshe will be talking about her new book, i think it is her 10th. i am sure many of you saw that it was the leadleader of you. congratulations on that. very well deserved. very exciting to see. and i will get to the book in a minute. i wanted to mention several family members are here tonight to. so much talent residing in
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one gene pool. a friend and former colleague of mine from the clinton white house and i have to say too humble to say this, but one of the finest speechwriters in the country. was then, has been sense, still is now. not here but you may know of him. director and writer. deborah cannon is correcting me. thank you. then lastly somebody always knows a little bit more. thank you for that. lastly, the lanes husband, a professor for many years and scholar. there you are. scholar of 18th century french who is as devoted a
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partner and champion as any spouse could possibly be, sadly the kind that julian never had. welcome all of you family members. most of us know her for having written the battle hymn of the republic. slightly more studious students of history we might also know she was a poet, leader, abolitionist, advocate. her secret writings on a brighter note the company she kept. in this wonderful biography we become deeply immersed in the public and private world her gallant but tenuous attempts. i just love this book and
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not simply because it is a great biography, great work of historical scholarship, it is just narrative nonfiction at its best, an incredible story that tells a much bigger story and in such aa way that engages the reader so deeply in on so many levels that if you pick this up you will not put it down. and that should be no surprise given the author. professor emeritus of english at princeton in the most respected feminist literary critic of her generation. her previous books attest are profound and flow of the academy. for many intellectuals that would suffice. not an intellectual or scholar. she is never been content.
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they've gotten to know that firsthand. we also know this. teaching classes here. one of our most popular instructors. there are only two spots left in her upcoming class. i would suggest signing up right away and thank you for coming in teaching. beyond her teaching and book writing she is an enthusiast of popular culture. a regular and also confessed and print for a passion for shopping.
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thinking about her latest book and why it resonates so briefly, it's because many parts of it, scholar, teacher, intellectual, feminist this is obviously an important book. thank you for being here. >> am going to start out with a bit of what we know. >> the battle hymn of the republic. i know you do.
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book tv -- ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪
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♪ >> all right. >> for all the tech assistance, that is whitney houston. she was attending station in norfolk. you see the video on youtube 3,000 military personnel. it is my favorite version. everybody has recorded it. elvis did it, johnny cash stated, this is the one that
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i like the best command it also brings together the elements of the military and the spiritual and the rousing that have made such a classic. well, when julian what was growing up in new york, studious redhead living in manhattan just under the slightly over 5 feet tall, and she dreams as a teenager of becoming an important american writer vision of great work. i would like the novel of the play of the age. that did not work out. she actually read very few novels.
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she was not allowed to go to the theater. this kind of vision was quite unrealistic. she turns to poetry as a safe outlet for young women, that if the age of 27 managed to publish a few poems in the newspapers and in the lady's annual. gifts at christmas. published several books of poetry and even wrote a few extremely unsuccessful place that was a real contribution
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she wrote her memoirs, written one palm composing the stress and strain. that is a lot more than many get and certainly more than most 19th century americans. she deserves a place in history. the international racket tour of music, honor, justice, morning, spiritual mission performed at the national cathedral in washington after september 11 and the battle has become the closer. it was played at the funeral
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of bobby kennedy. ronald reagan and very recently nancy reagan, and that was really extraordinary. very few women have state funerals. and in fact all of the battle and was played at the kerala was some churchill it was not played for margaret thatcher. it is kind of interesting. think of the battle am, the battle hymn of sarah palin. i recommend you bring it. it is unbelievable. the titles and a number of
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great american novels. come on a trip to washington with her husband. have a plaque. and in february 1862 printed on the cover within a short time it was the anthem of the union army. it was performed before president lincoln. the original manuscript was auctioned by christie for
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$782,000. maybe somebody will find out. not the forbes is the one who sold it. and that was very much in my mind. marking a hundred years of the biography. i'm pretty sure the 1st substantial biography of an american woman. before the 20th century biographies were collective. but a biography of one woman
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, two volumes long, that was really remarkable. they won the 1st pulitzer prize. and that was the year was given. the 1st prize for biography in the 1st one that was given. when it was done columbia university was running the award. and nicholas butler who was the president of columbia so that it was the best american biography teaching patriotic and unselfish service, unselfish.
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this is not the term that we would ordinarily used to discover great american hero it's not what we are looking to reward. and they definitely edited the story and particularly they presented the turbulent marriage is the union of two souls. not as dollar didactic. it's pretty sparkling. it came out apart from the pulitzer prize kind of puzzled by the biography. the portrait of such a distinguished american
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failed to develop that unity , that epic quality which distinguish the greatest biography a consistent personality of the central figure. not totally consistent. the study of virtue, the deep intellectual interests and the capacity for joy is nonsense. julia love shopping in fashion and parties. you get while was attracted to her. display of the qualities, real challenge it wasn't
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until 1989 that another biography of a woman by a woman won a pulitzer prize. mostly some of you may remember this. all lined up. a story that was mostly invented the very inspiring. in the 1940s also held in the wonder woman comics finally in 1979 publish the 1st modern biography. the 1st one had looked at.
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and she was the 1st scholar look at them. then in the 1970s the whole concept of what is biography changed. a book that she wrote colliding a woman's life, very little sense of what a woman's biography should look like. where you begin? how does she cope with the fact that her value is determined by how attractive men finder? if she marries does the marriage fail or succeed in what is a successful marriage look like always.of view? so what i want to do is meant to embrace the contradictions that made her
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both salient frisky. a battle for dominance going on between two strong people. and in my pattern she is fighting for independence. her liberation coincided with the end of the civil war. now something a little bit about the marriage said to be the handsomest man in boston. a foot taller, 18 years older and after medical school policy or, going after coffee again. have a terrible cold.
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he had followed byron degrees and he became a hero of the greek revolution. he immediately became the 1st director. education for the blind and later he became a champion in the abolitionist movement and a real activist. unfortunately although he was a champion of the oppressed in every area from the handicap those life after he came back from greece, ironic, they ended up with the prussian king.
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should be totally fulfilled. he decided where they would live and often said they had to live in the brookings institution which is a big, drafty, former hotel. and more seriously for her for better to publish your poetry or otherwise act. his idea to have six children i would've insisted on eight except that the
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younger son died about their heart, so he decided to stop is six. now, a very strange man in many ways. and one of my challenges in writing the book is to try to imagine the marriage is perspective. i did not want to make in the classic villain. and it is a challenge. an enormousenormous letters about her feeling comeau what was going on in the marriage. several very close friends who famously was beaten up on the floor of the senate. but he did not discuss his marriage. his words of what was going on command i was talking last week of boston bookstore and i met for the 1st time jim trends was the biographer.
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it was really interesting. i had learned an awful lot. it was interesting as the biographer of the work to meet the biographer of the husband and i noticed a couple of differences. in the life story of a prominent man wife often plays a small part. on the other hand the husband of a prominent woman is central to her life story, at about them in my book. in the 2nd difference i notedi noted is the gems biography is called the manliest man which is how he was described. the way he was seen by his contemporaries in the way he saw himself. for a while i thought about calling my biography the loneliest woman.
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but i gave up on that idea pretty fast. a very diminishing epitaph for a woman, not have the same variance command really julia did not see yourself as a paragon of femininity at all. in the 1st decade of her marriage she actually tried to write a book about a creature of both sexes who experiences life as a man and as a woman. this extraordinary manuscript is at the library at harvard and we know about it because of a heroic scholarship for a small number of specialists, namely william hsu edited and published it. gary mcgarry. the 1st house scholar ever met.
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one of the most generous. delighted. this is the book published by the university of nebraska press. thinking about the marriage of the house i was influenced by wonderful book called parallel lives. which looked at the political dynamics of five victorian marriages. sometimes luckily and i try to see the house is running in living two separate and parallel stories. what's going on at the time. now, he held most of the
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cards. not totally the victim, capable of fighting back. always has a weapon against the domineering husband. the 1st book of poems, i think her personal battle him and/or avenge book. working on passion flowers. decided to write this book. the advice of longfellow comeau one of his best friends are kept a secret. and many of the poems about the marriage is not going to
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tell she was writing the book and not publishing. keeping the matter entirely from him and not let them know anything. then he can do nothing to prevent. can one do this? and the power to preventer and give them a signed book. make a polite run and put it away somewhere. thought she didn't understand poetry. in any case it was important
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for her pride not to seek his permission to write or to publish. toward the ends of december had arrived, and checking was unexpectedly taxing. looking over these proof sheets, phrases, rhymes, expressions then it must be allowed for drawing and binding and then show the eyes. paris simple title. without my name according to longfellow's advice longfellow has been reading a part of the volume. he says it will make a sensation.
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if i succeed i feel i should be humbled by my happiness. passion flowers change the balance of power. both directions really. tell the story in the book but it was pretty intense. and then the civil war also change 19th century ideals of the separate fears of men and women. the consignment to public lives and careers. julie madep her mind she would no longer follow.
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she saw and valued according to the conviction on the 22nd anniversary in 1965 she decided to go and speak to the women prisoners at the penitentiary celebrating the event. pretty strong. as she approached in 1869 she had a vision of the new world of womanhood. duringduring the 1st two thirds of my life sure called i looked to the maximum ideal of character is the only true one and a new light came to me, the world of womanhood. her true mission became women suffrage. she went on the road with the suffragist, never
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stopped traveling, writing, speaking. she became known as the dearest old lady in america. she refused to be stuck in the 19th century. under 91st birthday she told an interviewer that are advised to american was be up-to-date. she took -- up-to-date herself. she took readily to the telephone, typewriter, phonograph. including one that children and installed her house so that she could send a violent to the upper story. she entertained oscar wilde to the horror of the boston concert actually wrote about in the newspaper, i will
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have to dinner anyone i like. two walks a day until she was 91 way what she damn pleased including fried foods, minced pie, champagne, and two weeks before she died she would have to did not honorary degree. of course there is everywhere they sang the battle hymn of the republic. never achieved the level of unity of relentless cheerfulness, unselfishness, piety, and austerity the society still demands from its female. she remained in unsettling mixture of stateliness and fastidious but she did not mind.mind. as she declared i do not desire ecstatic disembodied sainthood. i do not wish to advocate any one of the attributes of my humanity. i cherish even the infirmity
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i would be human and american and a woman. these are words i think for a biographer live by and glory, glory hallelujah for that. [applause] now, if anybody has questions i would love to hear them. >> if sheyou could make your way to the mic, the great. how long did she live after her husband died? eighteen years old? >> died in 1876. married for 36 years. >> it changed quite tremendously. one of the 1st things that happened, while he was dying they had what seemed like a reconciliation. she says her journal, i had my double bed moved into his
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room. they had had separate rooms per i don't know how long. she. she moved the double that in the room with his. and in the last few days they shared confidences and she thought it was wonderful. but a few days after he died they read the well and he had left her nothing in the will. and not only did he leave her nothing in the will but he said in the will to julia, my wife, i leave nothing because she is so capable of taking care of herself. and of course he had spent all of her inheritance. she had inherited the 6th of his fortune, the father owned all of midtown manhattan. tiny income. pretty much until the end of her life.life. eventually her son helped out and her daughters helped out.
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could not get much money, the lecturing or writing. she races. we used to say she became the man she had married. and after the death she became a public figure. so she in some ways took his life. very happy. doing this on steamships everywhere. >> pretty amazing.
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>> am really looking forward to reading your book. i just kind of glanced. something in italian immigrant, aside from being a suffragette and an abolitionist page 236 she became involved with new social issues including the abolition of the death penalty, the protection of a the tying immigrants, indiana affairs, the pennsylvania coal miner strike and the rebellion of the armenians against the turks. so how did she -- i mean, she took these positions. did she take these positions and publicize them through writing? >> she did. >> anyone listen to her? >> they did. especially in boston.
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legislators in session. the turn-of-the-century i cannot of done except take every single scholar no matter how dedicated.
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keep these biographies to ride. and julia did not when the penmanship rise, let me tell you. that was my big mistake. my husband came with me. i could not have done it without them. back and forth. it was kind of fun. >> any particular religion. >> she was very, very, very interested in religion. more than being devoutly religious. very interested in theology. a lifelong fascination of hers. brought up in a calvinist
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household and she really rebelled against that. her salvation was that she came of age during the great age of transcendentalism, new a transcendentalist through a friend and she very quickly through them became interested in the church and was really a unitarian for most of her life but read widely in all religious traditions, says that the ours are for her conversion and was reading something, and an essay of good, suddenly struck by the fact that they got she was worshiping must be the same as the god of the japanese. this was the cultural religious. she never thought of that before.
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she preached. >> just following up on that. studying a meeting of the rabbi which is interesting. >> he was a great linguist. her idea she found in the
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ghetto, in the 1850s in the candid tutor. not at all anti- somatic. on the other hand she really did not like the catholic church. and it was not a particularly good period of the catholic church. just after the revolutions in italy. extremely cynical about that. >> did she have any interactions.
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>> as far as i can tell emily dickinson only published seven palm start your lifetime. very close to the end of the 19th century, and as far as i can tell she never read any of them. in the book i talk about the way that the odds were so much against the 19th century american woman poet, they both grew up in new york. at the same age as teenagers running around the city totally free to my going to theater every day and every night. taken with an enormous number of chaperones. so different.
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the range of experience that he was able to draw on, led toward the end, did not like it very much. i don't know what she would have made of emily dickinson. emily dickinson is the one really important woman in the 19th century. whitman is the one important mail poet. ..
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the only real battle him was mine eyes, and that was biblical. it is not the weird mid- evilness as the other thing. she had read deck dickinson so when i kill her. you wish it could've happened. but no. >> how did her children view her and how did she view her children? >> she really adored her children and they adored her. she had not planned to have six children and she is unspoken about this to her sisters. every pregnancy when she finds out she
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is pregnant is a disaster. she has names for the children, while she is pregnant she says i will call this one dolores and stuff like that. but when they were born she adored them of course. they adored her and they said she was absolutely wonderful motto third. very playful, very engaged in all of their games. he was too, they were good parents. they made a good parenting team. when the children team. when the children grew up and they wrote the biography and they actually read her diaries and the letters, and they found out what she said, they couldn't really believe it. they had to smooth it out in the biography. they really didn't believe it anyway. they had their own image. this could not have been true. they really adored each other. maybe a little trouble here and there. they said it was the marriage of the two very turbulent people but they really adored each other.
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interestingly, they grew up, one of the sons it died as a young child. one of the daughters died so she had three surviving daughters and one son. the son became a very distinguished scientist. when they grew up it was the daughter she was closest to. the sun, in some ways is really like shelf. i don't know if he was like shove himself but he had a career lot like shops. he was always getting honors from international bodies and something, but the relationship is not as close. very close to to the daughters. the daughters were all writers. i think wonderful writers. laura, the oldest wrote 90 books. amazing. in those days they could really turn on a. florence, the second one not as much but she was quite prolific and i think very entertaining
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and mod, the youngest one also wrote a number of books. they always looked out on mod because they thought she was spoiled and frivolous, the other wednesday. but i like her very much. eventually she became a historian and moved to newport where she is quite a revered citizen in the town. >> you said that her plays were disastrous. was that deservedly so? or was she ahead of her time, or was the subject matter knots one that lent itself? >> i do not think the place are that good. but i'm not sure they were ahead of the time but certainly they were into categories, some of them were so cerebral you could not have imagined making a play out of them she was probably
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making out a verizon ball of empire and stuff like that. she did write a play after passion where in principle she was not supposed to publish anything but she did, she was just damned if i will do that, she wrote the play which was produced in new york which was a melodrama set in italy and i have to say i lost the title that right now, but it opened in new york and ran for about a week. the new york trip critics hated it and they thought it was both scandalous and coherent, there were scott scholars who disagree and say it's interesting. her brother, sam word was a lobbyist and a was king of the lobby as they called it, he was a great supporter, he was always terrific.
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not very many other people did. then she was trying to write a play about a place where she worked a long time, her dream was to have edwin booth play and then there was a course the assassination. this is another incredible thing. there will close friends to edward booth they lived in boston and went almost all of his performances. when they found out that john wilkes booth had killed lincoln, they were in double morning, the whole town was an edwin boots estate off the stage for a long time and that kind of fell apart. >> how many of her works, either plays or poetry had her name on it at the time of their publication? >> that's an interesting question. let's see, i think by the end of
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her life probably several day because a lot of them were reprints and it was a collected poems and so on. in the early part of her life, the first two were anonymous and then they would published by the author of, sort of thing. by the end of her life they did have her name on them. sadly, and i think inevitably, the poetry really decline toward the end because after passion chevron really crackdown. any kind of growth that she was developing as a poet and i think she was basically really talented and gifted as a poet. i don't think she had any chance to develop that gift. she he really crackdown in terms of subject matter. she really did not know any poets, if if she had known emily dickinson, can you imagine what would've happened. longfellow, whittier, they were
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very gentle poets, nobody really reads them anymore either. she did she did not know anyone who is really challenging her and she did not know any other women who were writing poetry. by the the end of her life, these books were coming out with her name on them and still getting review but even the critics were saying she has become the average of protests, someone who started out with incredibly unconventional and exciting, and new, it is not there anymore. but i think would also happen is that when, after the end of the civil war she decided that she was going to go out and have a public life, poetry became less interesting to her. a lot of woman in the 19th century, both in england and america, probably other places to turned to writing, sometimes fiction and sometimes poetry because
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they were bored of the other professions. i think she would've made a great intellectual. of course that was totally impossible. in fact harbor did not hire, didn't give a women tenure until the 1970 or something like that. so, that without, lawyer, politician, anything like that. a minister which was very attracted to. none of those things were open to her. so poetry was the channel into which they was the channel into which they poured all of their creativity, anger, protest, and intellect. i think she herself realized, back realized, back she says that at a certain point, i am never going to be a great sport, this is not the way i'm going to fulfill myself but i think i am a good speaker. she went on the road and she worked very hard. she said she said she studied that the other suffragists to teach her how to talk to a room of angry people which she encountered very often.
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how to deal with roughnecks insulting them and throwing things at them, all this kinda stuff. she really she really studied how to do it. she got very good at it as a speaker and that was the billing to her as a speaker. at the end of her life she felt like she had felt a rotation and she never stopped. the poetry really trailed off. she continued to write comic poetry. i think some of it is very funny. none of those were published in her lifetime. >> there is not the suspicion that a wide suspicion that she was the author and just did not know who wrote the. >> oh i should've said that, the book came out, talk about it. it was published but it was boston, boston was a small town, everybody knew within a week what was. so all of these and she told shiv and there is no record in her letters are his of that conversation which must have been really something. but everybody in boston new.
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they created an incredible sensation. some people were very shocked and horrified. hawthorne who is in england at the time a council in liverpool, he got the book from his publisher in hawthorne said i think it is one of the most outstanding american books of the time. he said along with walter this is one of the two books i would recommend to someone who wanted to read american literature. but she should be whipped for writing it. [laughter] that was kind of the general opinion. so it was really scandalous thing. particularly women she knew and her women friends were very hostile to it too. any other questions?
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>> you have talked a lot about her closeness in her writing to her sisters. could you you just say a few things quickly about her more intimate circle of female friendships? >> that is interesting to. when she was growing up she didn't have any really close female friends until she was almost 20 years old. that was because her father who is very much a strict calvinist, he felt that society was a temptation to sin and since they had so many brothers and sisters, and cousins that they should only mix within the family. they lived in a kind of a family compound in new york on brown street, the house they lived and eventually was sold and became brooks brothers which i thought was very appropriate. they lived in a fabulous
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mansion. she was not able to mix with other girls socially. she never knew any other young women, she thought it was a great loss. in her 20s after father died she made her first woman friend who remained her friend for the rest of her life and who lived in boston. they met in newport in the summer. that was a tremendous boom to her. they shared so much and it was a mary boone who introduced her to the transcendentalist and into the unitarian church. and supported her at every juncture of her life. so that was tremendous. she really she really do not have that many). she had a lot of friends in boston but they were not very close. she found boston very chilly town socially as i guess other people have to.
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but, once she got into the suffers movement one of the reason she took to it so much is the suffragists were so sisterly, her own sisters one moved to rome, one lived in new jersey and then in california. they were were her closest companions when she was young. but not until the suffrage movement did she really have intimate women friends, in particular mary livermore was her closest friend of the suffragists and who was a very warm, motherly, and she and she just talked about how they travel together. how wonderful it was to her. how enriching and enabling, how much fun, how terrific. no matter how bad the weather and how rude the audience are terrible the food, or whatever it was, traveling, traveling with mary livermore made it okay. >> i think we have time for one more question and if there's no
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tacklers i will ask it but i'm happy to have someone from the audience raise their hand. i feel like an auctioneer. okay my question and again i do not want to give way too much of the book because there's so many nuances and intricacies of the relationship in the book which is one of the things i love so much about it. but the relationship between her and shad and this repression sexuality and romance you feel is part of the source you feel is a source of tension between them. i wonder if you dare speculate, if they lived in a more tolerant time with a sort of could be who they really were, who would've they been exactly? >> i think the ideal model would've been elizabeth browning and garrett browning with whom she knew and she was very jealous of both of them. i think that was the model for her. she knew a lot of women in boston who, in principle have
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very companion marriages. as it turned out, i don't know how much she knew at the time, none of them did, she thought they did, lucy stone for example, she thought that was a wonderful marriage. it marriage. it was not such a great marriage. but the browning's really have the marriage she wanted and he totally supported her and it was very romantic, he was very handsome and it seemed like the perfect match. it could have been very interesting. he was certainly the most exciting man who came across her path i think at that time in her life. she waited until she was 22 to marry to mary which was quite old for that period. he was definitely the most suitable person she met. they should have been perfect. in the beginning of the honeymoon although they were on a steamship it sounded like it was starting well but it didn't.
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i think it has to be playing to mainly on him. she was she was so much younger, she was so inexperienced in certain ways and he was such a workaholic. then she started having all of these babies. so it was impossible really to know. but potentially what could have been between them was there and it's electric and one of those things. imagine a parallel life, another place another time, what they could have been. they should have been one of the great romantic couples of history. >> but there is a reason he was still a bachelor 42, right? he goes off to greece and he is not really, he has other interests. >> there is speculation about his sexuality. he was very attached to his male friends. notably uninterested in women. he kept a lot of journals. he was in greece for six years
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and passed up all of the temptations, or pretty much all of them, was not even interested particularly. there is some speculation that he was really, most of his sexual and emotional feelings were directed toward men and especially charles sumner. and they have written about that. it is hard to be sure, certainly, i think, myself we've talked about this, i think i think charles was much more likely to have been gay. seven are, they used to say he didn't get married until he was in his 50s or something. they used to say about sumner, he is not going to get married because he does not want to make any woman a slave. but he just was going away from it as hard as he could in his marriage lasted a very short time, and his his wife ran off with someone else. , but shelf, i think was at
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least a bisexual if anything. in that age they didn't really deal with these feelings or issues. of course they had a lot more leeway to express themselves. his letters are very passionate and emotional, intimate and they were very close. he does not write like that to julia like all. it's not there. but, i don't think he was incapable of it. toward the toward the end of his life and they had a reconciliation, people think that he told her he was having affairs. i'm not sure about that either. it sounds like you did, you don't really know. it will be interesting, the letters were also you don't really knows if they were affairs i think they were limited. i i don't think he was the kind of man to do that. certainly his sexuality and think it went into his work
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mainly so. >> i think you can tell from the last hour that this is an incredibly fascinating story. a fascinating woman and fascinating people around her. as i said, we have copies of the book of front if you haven't had a chance to get a please do. she will be happy sign up here. thank you so much. thank you for coming out today. clapmac you don't mind holding up your chairs and putting them aside you'll make our staff very happy. thank you. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] >> you're watching book tv. television for serious readers.
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watch any program you see here online at booktv.org. >> mary katherine ham, co-author of end of discussion, what is the outrage industry that you referred to in the subtitle? >> i think one of the things we talk about in the book and in the discussion is that every single thing becomes a thing. it is driven by social media starts on college campuses and it's a very tiny slide in speech, the wrong word at the wrong time that everybody's getting into a tizzy about. i think it ends up becoming a lot of pressure on everyday people of how they talk about issues especially thorny issues. the risk of people coming after them on facebook, twitter or or even their jobs where they face economic costs of having the wrong opinion are saying the wrong word. that's that's what people worry about.
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>> what is an example of one of those wrong words? >> i think there is a bunch of them. we talk about categories of wrong words, it is a lexicon of outrage and silencing like micro aggressions. so anything that might offend you for any reason is a micro- aggression. as unscientific but it's a really a way of saying i'm offended by something some going to try to set it down. there's also a privilege saying we don't like who you are what you're saying working to say check your privilege because we've heard enough from your type. this particularly applies white men such as myself. we sort of think that there are plenty of two examples in life like you should not try to offend the people. you should not be referring a reason. if you are a white man you should recognize that we have enjoyed a very privileged place for many generations. those things are not enough to justify shutting down or delegitimize order dismissing someone's pointer thought thought which is sometimes how this game works.
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>> this can getting comfortable, can't it? writing about it, talking about it? >> that's what we are wrestling with what we are writing it. navigating all this ourselves thinking who is going to throw a flag on us where? we had tried to have fun with it and be smart about it. but sometimes people make mistakes and you don't have to get up in arms about it because that prevents the back-and-forth. every time you talk to someone who disagrees with you you are not going to communicate exactly the same way about exactly the same thing. so you have to have the ability to deal with that. so we've had with the transgender and tea party and they're adding an extra syllable to a word and that would be a transfer make euro and we show how that applies to someone who
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gets it raked over the coals, like a left leaving journalists. and then he was insufficiently trend and then all the way through to rupaul, perhaps the most famous transgender,/ awestruck person in america was castigated because on her show she had a segment about you got she mailed, no that was transfer but, it done. it done. like no one is immune from this insanity. >> was being offended? >> that's something we talk about in the discussion that these groups can be make a lot of noise. and why the things that society at large needs to do is respond occasionally with a little bit more, hey, your hey, your concern is noted and also, chill out. not that many people are actually offended by this.
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too often we hear the squeaky wheel and think it's a giant story because it sounds bigger than it is. sometimes we need to have the maturity to say, i understand your problem, but were not going to stop talking about it. >> one of it is that it's primarily the political left that's engaging in this although we are conservatives and we call ourselves out personally and how we contribute to the problem where there is a tendency to try to substitute outrage and culmination for actual argument. they try to shut down by getting and we think it's toxic from those who are trying to. >> and those who have an arms race of outrage and we just think that sounds really awful. >> initiative outrage we have heard in this 2016 campaign has been donald trump not responding fast enough to david duke and a
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white supremacy. would that be an example that one would find at the end is discussion? >> yes i think we we had a whole chapter on race. with donald trump it's funny, he appeals to a lot of people were adamantly opposed to political correctness and he is not politically correct and that is one of the things that can be refreshing about him. there's a distinction between political incorrectness and object rudeness, for the sake of rudeness. we are not pro-rudeness. when it comes to the kkk, david duke thing one think that is frustrating and we chronicle it and talk about it is the left sometime tries to attribute to president obama as racist or anything that they can say there's a secret thing in there that appeals to the races. when you you ask a question on television whether not you are
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rejecting the ku klux klan, that is not a dog whistle, that's not politically correct miss there's one correct answer to that based on just basic human decency and that is to reject them immediately and clearly. the fact that he didn't and that interviewed raised eyebrows for a lot of people. what we've argued about his there's a few things that are relegated to that place and overt racism is one of them. so what we want to do is say that that status should be reserved for really awful and important things, not be distributed to every little thing, and i think donald trump as was mentioning is a little bit of a prescription and the problem in this case. he is sometimes off-the-cuff and politically incorrect. he also uses the tactics of the left to save your this in your that and therefore you can have this discussion anymore. so he's an interesting dichotomy on this. >> what's your relationship, how to to get get together to write the book. >> we are close friends.
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we were hooked up way back in the day by you who is a well-known, book tv mainstay and he suggested, i was moving to d.c. briefly to intern at the white house, she was working you're at that point and he said we should hang out, we did and we decided we had conversations about this, can you believe what is happening, we feel like -- and finally we send someone out to write about it and perhaps it should be sm we did. >> so just friends. >> yes. >> there is a chapter in here, don't know who wrote it and i will let whoever wrote it talk about it called the regina demagogue spin what. >> what we talk about is the feminist movement and how so much of it is built on said that
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if you disagree with any part of their political agenda then you are not a real woman. that is the clear explicit disqualification. i happen to be one of those women who does not happen to agree with modern feminists on every issue and yet they will set over and over again, stop talking, stop talking. or you just a tool for other people. that that robs women of their individuality. it robs them of their equality to say that unless you are in the space over here you cannot take all political issues. my grandmother, my mother before me, very interested in equality of the sexes and that's why i'm here today on tv, trying to have a family and doing all these things at one time. i do not get liberated and have to believe everything the left tells me i have to. >> one of the campaign issues, specially on the democratic side is women make 72ts

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