tv Kate Kelly and Robin Pogrebin The Education of Brett Kavanaugh CSPAN September 21, 2019 11:00pm-12:11am EDT
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♪ >> good evening everyone. we will. my name is allison fitzgerald. i am the 112 president of the national club. i am an incoming investigation visitor to the associated press. leave the program tonight, i don't think i've ever seen a book he met here that exists this full. thank you for coming. we invite you to listen watch and follow so long in twitter. hashtag his amc life. if you have questions, for the authors this evening, please there will be question cards around the room write the questions on the card and pass it to the end of the line and they will be collected and set
up to me. we will leave plenty of time for questions. i just wanted take those moment to acknowledge our headliners team. stan communications, strategies, our staff hit lindsay and would put this if it together this evening. so we are delighted to have them with us tonight. robin and kate. the authors of the education of brett cavanaugh. [applause] so the book is about three days old. it's been three days of uproar and controversy. this book president trump called for the mass rickets nation of new york times staffers. democrats to call cavanaugh to be impeached and new york times had to retract the poorly conceived tweets.
and people public and the times including excerpts of the book and new allegations against cavanaugh. that provokes obama backlash when it reviewed it was edited out of the key detail that the woman behind the allegation was a subject of the allegation said she does not necessarily remember the if it. the authors who dug deep into the allegation of sexual misconduct that dog justice cavanaugh during his confirmation in the supreme court, described her account is nuance. the washington post called the book quote remarkable work of slowed down journalism. that mary's events rather than opening on them or analyzing them. were excited to have our two authors today to speak with us today but this evening it about the reporting and what it helped to achieve with the book. we we will robin, a little bit robin. she covered that role, cultural
institution exploring internal politics finances and government of the world top museums auction houses, and performed arts mass organizations. she's a yelp graduate. will hill more about that. [applause] as you previously cover the media for the city news at the metro desk. kate kelly, demand immediate right covers wall street. she's an experienced television broadcaster. the author of street fighters. the best selling book of bank failures. she worked as a new york observer, in c bnc and attended the national cathedral school here in washington before setting off for columbia. please join me. [applause] is the mentor my intro a lot of the talk about your book has been centered in the last couple of days around the times.
but like us to focus a little bit more if possible. can you talk a little bit about what you know, what was your goal and what we are hoping to achieve especially so quickly after the confirmation process would have some brush. >> i would love to answer that question and thank you so much for this warm we will we really appreciate everyone who is come here to listen to more about the book. i look forward to everyone's questions. what we wanted to do was provide a little bit more information perhaps a little more closure about the confirmation process that so roiled americas a year ago. the allegations that arose of sexually themed misconduct. the questions that were not answered in the fbi inquiries that were short and left a lot of potential information providers unaddressed. not spoken to, when justice
cavanaugh was confirmed, i think a lot of people felt unsettled and unsatisfied all around the spectrum of thinking. people found the women to be credible, so that they had not had their allegations investigated adequately people who believed the justice cavanaugh was innocent of all of these accusations. perhaps felt that he had not had his side of the story collaborated well enough. or heard adequately enough. and we wanted to know who the fbi hadn't talked to of the people they did talk to what sort of information context to think yet. the report that was generated was reviewed only by senators and key staffers in a secure location. so the public really had no idea what the findings were. want to take some of back story looks. some of the relatively current stories of 2018 stories, and try to share whatever we found with the public.
>> talk about the process inviting people to talk to who you hadn't already heard from. >> kid and i had both been pulled into the coverage originally because of these personal associations. i was in class at yale, we are both class of 87, we were not friends but we knew to say hello and we lived in the same freshman dorm in freshman year. had social circles that overlapped somewhat. that had kind of help in my recording initially in terms of precedent reaching out former classmates. kate grew up in this area. so we are both part of this team which was kind of quite large and i'm sure any of you were on that. i don't need to remind you, is that kind of frenzy of information seeking in that moment. in real time where even as these confirmation hearings were unfolding, we were all kind of scrambling to kinda flush things out as much as possible. it was difficult to do on that time pressure when also people
have a lot of stake in the outcome. i think that we both really felt that it was a story for our time, not just because it had resonated at a personal loophole with so many people had been so incredibly polarizing but it speaks to culture and so much that we really have that sense of people saw that story and what they wanted to see. kinda regardless of the fact and the merits that they just sort of with the people they talk to, we sort of assumed, even when we said the reason we went back to this kind of back of these events of the book was to revisit them. in a more thoughtful in-depth detailed way. with the benefit of time. i did have people who had talked to is that i am writing this book and they would be like zero you know going to get him right. or people who would say, you are going to finally show that this guy was railroaded. so given those incredible extremes, i think our outcome is
that kind of messy in between which is probably unsatisfying. we found these allegations credible ultimately of these women. we also kinda got to know cavanaugh a lot better which i think most of the country hasn't quite frankly. as far as understanding as record, kind of 12 years on the second circuit. in kind with those decisions were and that actually is more of an robert dennis scalia and might be helpful for people to know that. who are very worried about him being a right wing thai leah. that is respected in most professional and personal circles. everyone we spoke to spoke incredibly highly of him is promoted women in a meaningful way in which these are some of the kind of cantering into her of we also uncovered that i think sort of lost into the flurry to the rush of judgment originally. >> was there specific things
that surprise you perhaps. was there anything specific that surprise you. i guess one of. >> i guess one of the things that was kind of striking was he had read a new york times article about how few women were coming to secrete her clerks these automated he is the mission to address that. as a result, really had the highest record of hiring women. you could argue. >> ginsberg argued that he had for female clerks. >> there are people who cynically say that that was politically strategic perhaps. in a time where we are all politically correct he knew he would get points for that. there are others that said he was trying to did this as an antidote to that. kinda creating a good record with women. we found that whatever is motivation, he did this in our real and sincere way. so many women kind of attest to
the fact that he did not just hired them as quarks but kind of stayed with them over time promoting them and making sure they didn't go to the supreme court and really mentoring them in a nurturing kind of masterful way. there was this one sorry that was particularly striking somebody who testified at a heritage foundation panel and she talked about she was an un- orthodox hurt candidate for him because she was further so long in life and a toddler. and he said to her you are coming to court for me. i've never done this before and you never done this before let's figure out how were going to make this work since you have located. that's kind of the details that is quite humanizing and also sort of shows the side of him that i don't think came across it all really are sort of demonizing him or sort of a culture was on some loophole. so i think that was surprising. on the mirror mirrors thing, i think it was also a story that was lost in the flow.
where it started to feel like piling on of allegations against cavanaugh. have the julie sutton allegations. quite frankly the right is doing a lot with her book, were out to get him. within fact there are certain things that we did not find incredible. we investigated all of them to the extent we could in the last ten months. we found that the allegations didn't pan out. kate can speak in more detail as to why. whereas deborah ramirez, we found repeated stories of people have heard about that. in the years since he became well in advance becoming a federal judge. that was meaningful. just one point, it's interesting what you say about we've all women. >> recently on the new york times, daily and think it was, talking about the notion that we all women and she said maids do the investigation. just take the allegations seriously and actually conducted
the investigation and see what is there and what may have happened or what did not happen. that was very much going through this. >> only get to that fbi investigation. don't want to get back to you mention this in passing that you were in his yale class. i was told that your culture, why are you covering the supre supreme. you know starting to get calls sort of organically we need was nominated. is that how it started. can you talk a little bit about that. >> interesting, i don't think i ever talked about this. this is kind of good. i have a college friend who like on september 14th, texted me, do you remember the name deborah ramirez. since someone was asking her about deborah ramirez. i said i don't know, can you send me a picture of her from
your yearbook. so i would my yearbook and i texted it to her. then she came back and said do you remember tracy harmon was another name. i came to me that picture. and i did. it was because she had a friend who was working for a senator who was trying to find out more about those names. september 14th. so this was in. >> before striking out in the washington post with her name on the record on september 16th, i think it was days before that, the 14th right before that that the intercept reported on the existence of a letter containing what we were later learned to be the allegations. but there were not a lot of details none of the time. >> so the yalies were talking. this thing was moving around and we definitely heard that. in the courses of my reporting. there is this whole part in my book where we talk about there are some classmates who have the theory that brett was i should
say justice cavanaugh now, we called him brett. he was trying to print the allegations in advance far back as july. there's some sort, munication about don't say anything bad. >> don't say anything bad about brett. among people at yelp. >> yes. >> just answer your question about how i came to the story out of the blue. i grew up here, is my hometown. i was national cathedral school class of 93. so i was in school ten years after justice cavanaugh graduated from georgetown prep. so i'm contemporary in that sense. but it was part of the independent in the case of ncs in georgetown. school scene, sort of familiar with the social scene, ten years later. it is the people that they come through the 80s, interestingly
at the time of the cavanaugh confirmation process, i didn't realize that even knew anyone who was in the georgetown prep. i later learned that some of the people i knew through church or family or other connections were so long. it was one of those people who said to me, you need to look into some things here. and the thing that was being shared with me was about the yearbook and the issues around the young woman named granada who was sort of brag about in the yearbook by cavanaugh and some of his friends as being members of a renata club. we later learned some sexually scenes jokes and boast about her they were not strictly true it is very messy story in a way because those young boys at the time, men now some of them including i think justice cavanaugh were really respected women granada.
she was in his social circle. they cared about her at the time. they do now. there was sort of a cultural through light at the time. sort of a one of those people words casual misogyny and joking around about women and sometimes disparaging way. the yearbook mentioned as well as some of the talk around campus at the time about renata, even if it was intended to be sort of humorous, was harsh. and belittling. >> did you speak to her. spirit she is to do statement to the new york times thing that she was on paraphrasing here but she essentially said that she had been unaware of the sort of meaning of those jokes or even the yearbook references. and together marble and her goal and she talked about how she
hopes these folks don't treat their own daughters that way. that was what we got from her. i smoked some of our friends who talked a little bit about the social scene at that time. they said there was not acts going on between granada and these boys. so it just shows you that even now even so many years later can be painful and hurtful in baby talk about that way and to think people have a certain impression of you from high school. that is really bad. >> read your essay where you sort of kind of described your conclusion in one of them was that you did not find that justice cavanaugh had any allegations of bad behavior postcollege as far as you could find. so is the nuance conclusion. we do come away with in terms of how we deal with past behaviors
especially if or when somebody was essentially a kid. >> this was something we wrestled with quite a pit particularly since we both have daughters and sons. the idea that something that you did the same to do these things that if you did them we do are 17 and 18 are they disqualifying if he is kind of improved and been a better person and had kind of conduct ever sense. good conduct ever since. we didn't find anything in the last 36 years. i'm not staying there may not be something out there but we did it that went out those meaningful particularly since i have done a lot of me two stories from the times. when i'm done them, there is usually a real pattern of behavior. there is one woman leads to another woman it is it hard to a sort of that this was a predator. someone like judge sue kinski who kavanaugh worked for, cooked
for and became close to, first it was five women or eight women that it was 15. that did not happen in this case. so then it is really difficult, question for how you know evaluating him and we cut the people who do feel like whenever you do something in your life, even if it is an acceptable behavior before year of age, it is still unacceptable forever and that means the core it's not open to you as a job. i think there are others who feel like should we give people the chance to get better maybe even if he had sort of a conscious effort to really address the behavior and the rest of his life. we will never know. i think with kate and i ultimately concluded was that we had a stick but we do as a journalist and uncovered and present as many actually possibly could. this is the fact-based book and that the readers trying to decide for themselves.
this was ultimately the president his decision in the senate, the voters who then weighed in on the midterm election and it was out for us to say both of justice kavanaugh deserves to be on the court. there was obviously this controversy about the allegation from a party at yelp. where the reported victim did not speak to you. people included in the book and my sense is been because it was also the scope of the fbi investigation. can you talk about the decision-making around it including that in the book. >> i am glad you asked me about that. the additional avocations, just quickly to summarize it, had to do with a drunken dormitory party at yelp, in which alleged a young brent kavanaugh exposed
himself. and had friends push is genitals into a classmate hands. we had more than one source on that. we had two sources on that and it was also in a document that was prepared for the fbi by lawyers and a description of the incident with the woman's name. so is kind of circulating a year ago. we found was there was a person that was in the room when this happened and observed it. a washington figure named max dyer, who had some history doing work on behalf of the clintons god for many years had been a sort of nonpartisan government advocate and is the respected figure. he says that he witnessed the if it and he told this to multiple senators last year as well as
try to contact the fbi enter the details with the fbi. he tried among other things via senator chris coons, who wrote a letter to director ray i believe it was last october 2nd. just referring to dyer and staying that he was someone who should be followed up with. in terms of the recording, we had missed recent sources that dyer has declined to discuss this publicly. the woman involved, actually did talk to robinson booklet about a different subject. and does not want to talk about this. i'll let you say more but friends of hers have said that she does not recall the incident. and that maybe because from what we understand pre- much everyone well, she and others at the party were intoxicated or on the influence if not intoxicated. i forgetting anything. >> i think that's right. it's really different and so often people have said that you
don't really have or you have all of this hearsay about something that happened. you actually had something where it someone witnessed it and saw it. people of kind of made a lot of the associations. actually our former editor at the time said today on fox news on all things, if you were politically motivated why did he blow this up during the confirmation hearing. she did it. from our understanding at a very specific agenda which was to bring this information to the people of good affect the outcome. you know evaluating together then we on beyond that he want to go no further. once kavanaugh was confirmed, he was done. that's why he hasn't talked about it. >> did you look into the fbi investigation. to what degree did you find that they've spoke people these book two. i think that so many people felt frustrated by this process thought that that was unfinished business. i think basically what you have here is they wanted to the cup
republicans wanted to fast-track, it was very much work on his mission to get it done and get it done before the midterm and before the court resumed. so they had no interest in dragging it out any further on the other hand you have a culture enemy to moment that has these close allegations i think they need it to at least do some kind of dutiful thought to additional look into these allegation but they also didn't want it to be as alien, calling it a fishing expedition that went on indefinitely. so they kind of established a very circumscribed investigation that was directed by the president. thus for the orders came from. i think you are actually a lot of confusion there. i remember when we are reporting on them at the time, who's directing this. who is creating the rules who's creating the batteries and deciding him him he witnesses the tattoo. and i think actually what you found was they really try to limit it to people firsthand knowledge.
off of they didn't go back to brett and want to interview them. they only wanted the key players. >> it's interesting because what started off as bipartisan agreement, between senator coons and blake said we're going to hold hands and jump off of a bridge here. sort of a joke at the time. it's very much became an effort driven by insurgency republicans in the white house and present that senators cunha flake huddled with senators collins and rocha and kind of talked about what they might do it with the parameters could be in kind brainstorm potential witnesses. and from what we understand the witness was that they were talking about it well into the double dishes. the republican senators met with ms. miss mcardle entitle a pit more about what to be done. ultimately the ball was in at the white house. technically the white house was a client in this case. in the white house i was looking back in the new york times reporting from the time was initially suggesting for
witnesses to be interviewed. for key people from the alleged incident. that was ultimately then grew to ten. but we note that there were 25 people on a list that promote lawyers, gave to investigators. another i believe 13 that were named in a letter from another lawyer to the fbi and scores more were not named but kind of suggested on their affiliation in various events. >> neu have 70 classmates from both high school college to have these stories agonizing stories that were trying to get through to the fbi. try to reach them and being sent to the tip line. >> all day on hold. showing up to the local offices. very frustrating experience. both of their information was going to be relevant or not is another question. they felt they had something to contribute. >> did they tell you their information. >> when we have these kind of
people who have heard about the premier his allegation for example, in that that was important. there's actually a woman that was really kind of rocked in this that had told about the incident after she graduated who had signed an affidavit to that effect and brought to the fbi staying she told me this very story. things like that. somebody trying to get their information across the fbi i think what is interesting is the sense that some people blame the fbi but the fbi was sort of following orders. and one kind of way that we sort of found that illustrated that their hands were tied that the two agents in boulder colorado who interviewed deborah ramirez find you credible. sort of wish we could do more if we are all kind of permitted to do more but at this.we can only go with as far as we can go. and that one of her attorney said they almost need a little apologetic.
soon if you have talked to essentially a lot of people who said they want to talk to the fbi. but they were able to. but you haven't come out with 15 new allegations. so should we conclude that the fbi investigation was adequate in the end. or the fbi report was adequate in the end. >> that's a good question. [laughter], journalist. >> i think that we were able to do was establish much more of a picture and try to understand why you see these two images of bright cabin on how you possibly rectify those. and also to come up with a little more detail on this new allegation that we talked about. one other interesting thing that came up at the fbi investigation and in her reporting had to come with kaiser. this is kind of a set of facts that was working in justice kavanaugh his savior.
kaiser was a woman who was alleged to be at the christine was a ford gathering. to make a long story short, she has said that she doesn't remember that evening. and she really can't say for near near clear memory but she upon reflection had become dubious of the accuracy of the per trail. she told that to the fbi and the second meeting that she had with them. the chief saw it on out. after reflecting on the matter and looking at old photos of the younger brett kavanaugh and just thinking about back at the time. yet a number of reasons that she wasn't confident in the story. including the circumstances like for example, ford had talked about swimming at the country club on the day. i think we as a public last fall had the impression that the party kind of started that the
club with the six people that migrated to house. and there these events unfolded and kaiser said look i was a member of the columbia club and i did go there. christine was on the diving team and i would occasionally go by and actually critique or diving. we were kind of an athlete and played six or eight varsity sports. had a good eye for these things. she said that what happened but really she was bending most of her time at the congressional country club. she said things like she really didn't remember brett kavanaugh his face from prior to the controversy last year. she didn't remember him as a young person. she thought she would've. so there are number things that were all very interesting and reasonable in races to raise questions about the accounts. we put it all in a book because we think that it's relevant. i didn't or we didn't necessarily feel like that recollections were the negation
of the ford story because for example, she acknowledges, maybe i did go there. and judge the diving another interesting thing was that kaiser actually dated and more judge who was justice kavanaugh his good friend back in high school and was a personal alleged to be in the room when the alleged assault occurred and foretold me and subsequent interviews that she thinks maybe that gathering that she remembers came together as a result of kaiser and judge planning it. not because everybody run into each other thought. not to belabor it but these are some of the interesting details that come out. we do talk at the end of the book a little bit about our own analysis as sort of recorder reporters as well as people hopefully with common sense and you can put all of this together and make a deduction. we invited readers to take from
it, what they see. just help inform their perspective. >> thing also to your question even if the conclusion is the same, think people will feel like they come to it with and more information than they did. based on what the fda investigation was. i feel like there is just a lot that we feel like we lay out in this book where people on both sides of this issue will kind of feel like okay now, i am making much more of an informed judgment. that i did initially when these events were flying by. >> honey get questions from the audience. i was just going to thanks one more as i wait for cards to be delivered. it's going to be like a nitty-gritty reporting question. to secular like that. he talked a little bit about how you went about trying to figure out how this or if this house existed.
>> this was like a real reporting challenge. i am happy to talk about it. so i went through the public record and everything that ford had said about her recollection of this house. and then had a series of conversations with her and some of her friends and advisers and took down any details that i thought might help narrow it down in some way. so there were to get you all of labor, some of you probably remove this well, it was and i am combining what we'd kinda knew publicly with what i learned in the reporting process. it was somewhere in montgomery county between the columbia country club in her house on like on the name the street but not far from burning tree. not necessarily walkable it was at least a two story house, it
had a narrow set of stairs i'm sort of the ground loophole with the party was going on to this upper loophole where there was a bedroom and bathroom across the hall. there are number things like that. one interesting thing was she had a recollection that judge who was kavanaugh his friend seemed to have a possessive kind of approach to the house. nothing was his house, that's more or less a rollout in my reporting but that it was maybe a friend of his house or family member or something like that so it kinda went through the judge universe at the time as best i could. he was kind of worried about taking care of the house the survey might come home to the house. there was a sense that they had to be out of it by a certain time and seem to be a fear we break something or spell something, it's on me. >> he would go into that. to make a long story short, i
selected the strong but i sort of narrowed it down to possible houses. when belonging to a judge family friend and was belonging to another prep classmate from 83. i shared with ford kind of some details of the houses and so on. it just became really hard to make a clear judgment. there were not floorplans that i knew to be 1982, apparently montgomery county has not kept a lot of their archives. floorplans of houses prior to 1986 there was like a digitization and a lot of things were thrown out which was fair enough. it's a long time. i'm sure some of those exists, maybe there are private. but that was about as far as i got. so that, that kind of thinking. so this is the question i kind of had to. i was glad to see it here on top
of the file. in july of this confirmation, i think what we realized here was that that is a very good lawyer and judge. he would probably not get up there in line in front of the american people. but that he kind of navigated the truth. i think is the good way of putting it. [laughter] that are conceivably different definitions the devils triangle and goofing and all of those terms. and that he said he had is it too many beers for example. that understates our reporting indicates how accepted excessively he was drinking. he did say he was having is it too many beers so that's the kind of things that i mean. there was ultimately not necessarily a technical live,
but that's actually the drinking was sort of a true line we found this book which was frankly kind of what helped understand his development personally and what he was like as a young person and how actually these events might've happened and how what might shed light on explaining them. and drinking was a big part of that. that is what brought so many classmates out of the wood work. during the confirmation hearing who had kind of planned to stay on the sidelines. he wanted to say wait a minute, that's not the breath i remember. it was a very different loophole of drinking. in extreme. soy think that that arch things perhaps. but i also think there is this question of his temperament. towards the end. and there is this element to which there are people who have argued, what is kavanaugh got enough there and said i did some
stupid stuff when i was young. i am sorry about it and i may have heard some people in the process. i feel bad about that is it too. other than a good person ever since i mayday real effort. to kind of need that to be a better person. i think the argument is and in this truck moment that would've been kind of inconceivable to think that he could still have made his way onto the court but it's all about fighting back and it's all about denying. and there is no kind of room for the gray. and there's no room to this human being that is fun right now. so that her understanding off of he did interest apologize how he spoke to amy, and how the wall street journal coming staying i am probably went is it too far. i think otherwise, there was no room for concessions. >> i want people to thanks, did you find it he says that he had expressed morris anywhere.
for his behavior we need was younger. if it were to be true. >> he did apologize to renata. as i recall, he had checked up on that. i think he feels very bad about he said he felt bad about the way this had come out. so maybe he was referring simply to the media coverage but i think the idea that she got hurt was upsetting to him. in terms of staying. i don't remember something like this, but if every hurt anybody in the past, i'm terribly sorry. >> is amazing also how many people suggest that much of what it meant. even i think christine has a interesting story of her thinking that maybe she could call kavanaugh and say listen to
this. it was so clearly unrealistic on some loophole but deborah ramirez said if he just apologized, and it's so weird to kind of hear that that might've been enough but there were enough sexual victims and i've talked to who have said that sometimes that's kind of what you need for closure. just an acknowledgment that you did this to me. what's these alleged situations. i think that that is sometimes lost in the conversation was just how far that could go. >> wanting overlong here this is just such an interesting topic the question of should there been an apology and is an apology even possible. the feels warranted off of in this case, just as together then we said he was innocent of these charges. presumably did not find it warranted. the cultural moment that we are living in, is so hard. it's a cultural moment in which you have the advent of social media where you can say any
hateful thing to somebody and get away with it. you can make death threats and threaten their families and this happened to christine. through kavanaugh, two deborah ramirez to many of the key players and their lawyers. people had bodyguards because they were worried about the threats and a lot of that comes from social media and anything goes. when it comes to language. i think me is it too if it has become a galvanizing cultural if it for the last two years. at the time of the kavanaugh confirmation hearings, the b-2 movement had been underway for a while and i think there was a backlash growing. that was going is it too far in this notion of the legal women was oversimplified and overlooking the investigation part of it that i was talking about earlier. and they have a president who does advocate taking stances on and has talked about allegations
of sexual misconduct that if something where you need to deny deny deny. it becomes very hard to just sort of technology flaws. >> i think all of the one of the things that we've encountered as reporters we had a fight around assumptions about us as well as our own preconceptions. we are two women. i think people assumed we would kind of be sort of absolutely in an uncritical way. i think they assumed that because we are with the new york times, we have a liberal agenda. i think it was important for us to put ourselves in kavanaugh shoes and really imagine someone is being falsely accused and really kind of go there and explore that and try to understand perhaps we have plenty of people who argue to us, the temperate brent was imagine if you are kind of fighting for your personal and professional life. i think we try to reflect that in the book. it was hard, we really wanted to
talk to people in sort of the kavanaugh his camp it was hard because they just assumed they had all sorts of ideas in their minds made up that where we were setting up to do. >> obviously the controversy over the excerpt book and the effect that the article did not include the fact that the alleged victim didn't remember the incident at the party. has been into this idea that you know out to get him perhaps. maybe undermine the credibility of the book even though it is in the book. one question i thanks is if you were able to read it before it was published and if you knew that that was taken out and number two, what was your reaction. >> let's walk through this. essentially, we prepared the
story it was an excerpt of the book and it was always going to be a small fraction of what was in the book where we try to cover everything obeys. but you can't do that in an expert by definition. the focus of the expert was on the debbie romero story to kind of condensed version of it. and some additional collaboration that are often found in terms of additional people from the shared classic yellow who heard about the incident around the time as well as relatively short appeared. afterwards. and why her experience at yelp, was sort of uniquely challenging. she felt like a fish out of water and then comes this alleged incident that really makes her feel unwelcome and kind of unsafe. as part of that, we thought that talking about this new allegation briefly, was because it was a similar situation. and we had crafted language that uses a woman's name and talked
about the fact that there was this witness max who talked about earlier, the next tire did not want to talk about it publicly but he shared it with officials. ultimately that the woman has declined to talk to us about this specifically and then she said she doesn't remember it. during the editing process that line was taken out so long with the woman's identity. there is a mentality of new york times they want to protect women who are victims in the situations. with an amenity. unless they want to come forward and talk about it. so that was the intent there. we had some dialogue with the editor about it. but in the end, it was taken out and we had added it in. so we address that oversight as soon as we realized it. and we really regret the
omission and the concern that has been caused. >> there are people as you mentioned, deborah ramirez, the excerpt in the way you framed it, she ended up seeming quite sort of hopeful and that there is good that is, but. one of the questions here asks about addressing that 1980 drinking and rape culture. and she thinks to suggest that this whole episode may be something that unless a healing but at least making people talk about what the world was like at that time and how it might be different now. >> i think i initially when we are first beginning this process, things were still pretty raw and it was difficult. and she also by no means was sort of ready to trust me.
but over time, i think would happen was both christine and debbie ramirez received an outpouring of support. so yes there was a tremendous amount of ugliness there is also a huge response from people who said thank you for telling my story and thank you for making me feel validated thank you for making me feel not alone. debbie ramirez has both this huge binder as well as this kind of box of letters and notes that she saved in return two. that included not only from other victims but from men who said she made the more sensitive in terms of their sons, doctor said we are talking to patients differently because of you. so i think that in a sense of having contributed to a dialogue, she felt better about it. she also didn't testify publicly and i think to some extent wasn't ranked over the coals quite to the degree perhaps before it was. so maybe the scars are a little less damaging.
i do think that she had more sort of hopeful you of the potentially this kind of started something. that was important. do you agree with that. >> in terms of talking about this do you agree with that. >> early struggle with that in the since this happened with anita hill and yet the outcome was same. how much have things change. that personal question, i think the way this country treated these allegations was different. they took ford seriously because they had to. they treated her with respect to that hearing and more respect anita hill was treated. it's not dismissed, she was not treated as crazy. and i think it was kind of amazing as i'm sure all of you experience to watch her testimony in a kind of thought she is finished. so powerful and even trunk and
see how powerful it was and they also have going to realize the bad optics of having a panel of republican neil judges. male senators questioning her and got a female prosecutor. the events is very off of they did. i think there are plenty of people i talk to if you like nothing has changed. the patriarchy rains and inserted framing 1991 percent now, there's this interesting poll that we cite in the book, just a little bit dated but i believe it's from last december but still, this cavanagh confirmation hearing from gary and them, the research arm, 49 percent of those pulled out largely an bearable impression of. as compared to 29 percent but a favorable one. 35 percent said the senate did the right thing and confirming him. 41 percent so fairly close
disagreed. by contrast, an overwhelming 58 percent of american confirmation, supported him with 30 percent opposed. and ultimately, 55 percent of voters, who were polled, believed ford over cavanagh which was a 16-point margin error, so you don't have a perfect comparison of thomas to cavanagh in a sense of believability but we look at the sort of favorability for thomas, even anita hill hearings, is the different picture from last year. >> several people asked, can you speak to justice cavanagh. >> we run away to washington to speak to him. we had finally kind of arrange for an interview. ultimately we could not agree on terms that we felt comfortable with. so we didn't do it. we do feel like we could. >> you and tell us about the disagreements. [laughter] >> basically we have
debated both of or not to talk about it. but it is what it is. he wanted us to say we hadn't spoken to him. [laughter] and we even went to negotiate the pricing of that. where we were even wheeling to say nothing. not to talk about who we spoke to not to talk about resources but he wanted the line in their that staying we did not and we felt that to mislead our readers in a book about very much deals with issues of truth, [laughter] was probably not a good foot forward. >> interesting. >> mike went out. the microphone went out. >> declined to be interviewed.
>> as a condition to be interviewed. >> even if we had spoke to him on background or off the record. >> it happened late, he only we had only got to this.when late. the book was about to be literally go to press. do because of the decision. we say that we declined which is true. we did not interview him. what is in the book. it is true. with the whole back story we just shared with you, it's not in the dust. the situation unfolded very late in the game. i think also give her ambivalence about we suddenly realized we were protecting him by not putting it in. what would be doing a few traditions. it is hard because we did feel good that we were about to talk to him and would've really liked to of. but i think it also at a certain.you have to be
forthcoming about the truth of these things and the reality of what we were left with. the book was about him. >> it's not sort of a smaller player, is about him. [laughter] is just hard to, we can talk more about this if you want. briefly as a beat reporter, which would go far and i'm sure many are. you meet with figures on hippie from time to time in the state of the union conversation, and you get their thoughts on different things and maybe some background or maybe off the record. and down the line you write a story about something that maybe you only touched on or maybe didn't touch on it all in that interview and can honestly say so-and-so declined to be interviewed for this article. that was not the case here go. the point of the meeting was to talk to bump up some of the issues that were going to be the book and he was the focus of the
book. there just was no way to thread the needle unfortunately. >> if you people say he's already been confirmed so what is the point of all this. >> [laughter] i think that what this we attest to that this experience as a going away and for whatever reason it had kind of a seismic effect. i'm sure you guys have all been at plenty of dinner tables with us continues to ignite. very strong feelings from people on a lot of levels. i think were not going to get to a revolution about this but grappling with these issues is important. quite frankly has frustrated us about why the times dustup has obscured what we are trying to do. which is to raise some of these questions and wrestle with them. in terms of just what this meant
and why it was so sort of formative for so many people is the hot button issue and how it does have implications for the rest of our time. it speaks to help politicize the process has become for judges. talked about how we are dealing with she was considered sort of a pinnacle of this me to moment. we had a backlash as a result. people thought it was me to run amok. on some loophole. these are issues that will continue to ripple out and we will come around again in some other forum. >> to put purchases aside for a minute. this whole story, there needs to be a process for everybody. there needs to be a fair process for judges that are considered conservative and those considered liberal going forward. i believe it was general but who
wrote an interesting column this week on the topic of cavanagh staying that there should be a house inquiry into the fbi investigation and what was done during that period not because she thinks that impeachment is likely or necessarily should happen, even though there are say call for that by some of the democratic candidates. just because it is useful to see how it was conducted on on what marching orders and what information was gathered and where there were process laws perhaps they could be amended for future candidates. because we all want a fair court that we all want a fair process. >> i think of cloning justice cavanagh that i want a fair process. [laughter] >> we have time for a few more questions here. i have a pile them sorry i'm not going to get to every single one of them. we have some nitty-gritty ones of them on youtube. people asked if you spoke to and more judge and then this goes to say dean or his whereabouts.
>> [laughter] >> d4 never explain why she left her friend in the house after an attempted rape. people getting into the details. i was like okay,. >> this is the room full of reporters i love this question. i was tasked with finding and more judge. [laughter] have it's not that easy to do. and more judge has been kind of itinerant as i understand it. during this relevant period of last fall he was hunkered down at the bethany beach home of some family friends and i think it was a washington post who tracked him down. at the time that we were working on this, so kind of late last year early this year, especially he had been staying with family friends in potomac at one point that i heard he was staying with the family member outside washington. so i don't have some doors and went looking for him and they
said zero he stayed here last night but else. seriously. [laughter] eventually, i think i landed on a place where he was staying and i was turned away by the person that answered the door. but i left a business card and explained why it was there i got a call from him. mostly telling me to buzz off. [laughter] but we had a brief conversation and gets a lot about it but the upshot of it reporting that is done, and the thing that is told of the people, is that he just doesn't recall. that is been his respective all so long. in terms afford why would would she leave the friend. i assume that i'm i'm just going to interpret that question. hopefully accurately. so the question is why was she sort of run of the house labor friend kaiser there. again that was sort of the picture that emerged last fall.
in my reporting i got a more detailed version of that. you start be staying i said before, but i understand from what you have said that you told the senate judiciary committee everything that you could remember. so i want to thanks you, are there things that maybe happened that may be useful reporting pleads and i can try to figure out if they are accurate or not. . . she walked home from this house because they didn't walk
anywhere at the time. she lived in kind if they are burning tree and they believe. they were in chevy chase so herb vest thought although she doesn't remember specifically is that lee land rover home and leland also said to me i probably wouldn't have driven her home and i don't remember that. so it would seem she didn't leave her friend there but it's an interesting question in itself. >> a couple of people are asking about mollie hemingway's book about kavanaugh. it's interesting to me she has obviously taken a song quite strongly. we spent a lot of a lot of time in our book combating it on twitter. i have read the book. we read it right away and i found it really valuable for us and quite good. i was you know appreciate it
particularly some of the details we weren't able to get because we want someone portray them in a 360 three-way which is something we thought we had missed because they had been sort of caricatured. and just things like trump, i'm sorry, trump. kavanagh. [laughter] was inspired by reading the brethren you know for example and becoming a judge and then he listened to country music and just some of the you know who he is now as a person and that kind of stuff was good and also just the way it which the republicans were working behind the scenes which is something we were able to get out somewhat but we certainly were interested. we wanted to do that take talk of this covered buddy was getting ready for these hearings and preparing. i feel like they have a lot of
good stuff along those lines. unfortunately they are so clearly partisan in terms of they do have a clear agenda and make no bones about it. i think that is unfortunate in that you can't just take your book on the merits of writing a book. >> from what we understand they did not even ask for comments. >> i have one more question but before do i want to present you both with a highly coveted national press club mug. >> i've been using mine. >> i'm glad you've been using it. after we finish here robin and capel signed books over there. there are a lot of people so we are going move through the little pic quickly. how are you'd dealing with all the vitriol on social media?
>> i mean robin keeps telling me to get off twitter. [laughter] i'm not reading much of it. you know i will speak for myself. i was expecting a lot of heat. it's an inflammatory topic and we understand why people are so passionate about it. i ran into a neighbor of mine in new york a number of months ago and he said cade i haven't seen you in a while and i heard you were writing a book. what is your book about? i told him it was about brett kavanaugh and he said oh man that guy? he went off on brett kavanaugh and they kind of took them on. as we say ad nauseam we feel that our work is very nuanced in a complicated story so when people have a strong effect that he is a good guy or a bad guy we
always want to challenge that. he just dug in. i was using -- losing the argument big time and i walked away thinking whatever people thought a year ago and people had strong feelings it's off now than in the absence of new information but i don't know if we will have any success in broadening perspective changing perspective to accept other points of view but there is a lot of pain i think in the process of trying to do that. >> i think it's hard when we put a lot of work into something that really did go to great lengths to be balanced and fair and take yourself out of it, to have it particularly be caught up in certain things like taking a line out of an op-ed or a
really bad tweet which ends up obscuring what you actually set out to do. and it feels like a lot of noise sometimes a new kind of hope you can get past so people can consider the work you did with an open mind and just take our work seriously the way we try to. >> kate black and robin pogrebin thank you very much for being with us. [applause] [inaudible conversations]
p lot of silicon valley companies and i wrote about this in the focus of my last book sold out with a former american software programmer turned lawyer for american i.t. workers who have been harmed by these cheap labor pipelines for i.t. workers from china and india. they are explicit goals are to bring in as many cheap laborers as they can who then outsource the work. so the problem of course is a lot of the silicon valley companies have invited the sdlc
into their inner chambers to help them identify their worst political opponents and then to completely throttle them from telling the truth. it's connecting the dots of that money. tim cook and jeff bezos have donated to many of these deep-pocketed nonprofit organizations that are crusading for illegal alien rights. you wonder how it is that they have instant representation in court do over every trump initiative to enforce the law and so big business and the u.s. chamber of commerce are huge reason for that.
the book is essentially about a set of horrible, horrible on line spaces. something awful is one and it gets worse from there, these are message boards where people have congregated for 10, 1520 years and have only gotten more and more unhappy to the extent where now they are there and they are angry and murderous. to the last shootings one in callway california and also the one in new zealand to christchurch shooting. they were shootings that came off of one of these web sites and a lot of them have become fascist said they had become so deeply disenchanted with their existence that they have decided
that they want to destroy civilization and instead rebuild it as a fascist fantasy. prescod joining me from new york is jeanine pirro the book is entitled "radicals, resistance and revenge" the left's plot to remake america. thank you for being with us here on c-span. >> guest: thank you. >> host: why did he write the book? >> guest: after i wrote my last book liars leakers and liberals which was about the oppressed one of the department of justice and the fbi and the corruption that i believe has gone on there, not the rank-and-file obviously. i stepped back and i looked