tv Day 6 of Trial for Derek Chauvin Accused in Death of George Floyd Part 4 CSPAN April 6, 2021 12:33am-1:43am EDT
policy five - - 311. >> yes. >> exhibit 224. >> the policy the difference between a chokehold andnd a neck restraint. a chokehold is actually from the front obstructing with the trachea and airway of the suspect. >> yes. >> per minneapolis policy that isde considered a legal use of force or deadly use of force. >> yes. nelson: it has a high rate of death. >> that is correct. nelson: it is moderate understand is the front. >> yes. nelson: also differentiates between a chokehold and a neck restraint. >> yes. nelson: a neck restraint
compressing one or both sides the neck without applying direct pressure to the trachea. agreed? >> based on the policy it's important to note it is a m moderate amount of pressure. >> understood. late to moderate pressure. i'm assuming you do have a degree in physics. >> i do not. nelson: so the amount of force you would not be qualified to speak to that agreed? >> agreed. nelson: also differentiates between a conscious and unconscious neck restraint. >> yes. nelson: a conscious neck restraint you have someone who is resisting you and you apply that neck restraint in the
effort to simply gain control of that person but they stay conscious. >> yes. nelson: unconscious neck restraint is when you actually render the subject unconscious. >> yes both were permitted under minneapolis police policy may 25, 2020. agreed? >> yes. nelson: ultimately if i understand you have formed the opinion this was a neck restraint. >> yes. >> and you have formed the opinion that this was an unconscious neck restraint. isn that correct excuse me conscious neck restraint. >> yes.
nelson: you testified under direct examination that it is contrary to the training you have received to place your knee on a subjects neck. >> it is contrary to our training to indefinitely place your knee on a prone handcuffed individual for an indefinite period of time. nelson: the issue youit take with that is the length of time? >> a couple of issues. one of those is again as you noted, receiving the information as a personal threat to the officers. what is the severity of the crime? are you reevaluating a person's medical condition? all of that is critical
thinking so that is key for me and why i vehemently disagree the use of force in that situation. nelson: now when we talk about that critical decision-making model, that doesn't only apply to a specific subject that you have under your control. correct? >> you're talking about bystanders. nelson: yes bystanders, other officers, other things that come into play with the officers critical decision-making. >> when the officers engaged in the use of force, facing that as a yes or no, the head
is not necessarily focused on the subject of whom they having custody. agreed? or disagree. >> the officer engaging in use of force for other matters? yes. spirit that is what the de-escalation model talks about is looking at things from a tactical advantage. or disadvantage. >> one of the portions. de-escalation has to be applied assuming it safe to do so. >> yes. >> all other tactical considerations that's of the policy says. >> yes. >> in terms of that decision-making and officer is not the singular
decision-making process so an officer has to be concerned about other things that are known to him at that time. agreed? >> yes. >> some of those would be what just happened between me and the subject a few minutes ago. right? >> yes. >> i just fought with the subject, talking generally come i just fought with this person generally a few minutes ago, he's not resisting but that doesn't mean he could not resist again. >> yes. >> even if he is handcuffed. >> yes. >> if he is income, they are not threat less if handcuffed. >> yes. nelson: someone who is handcuffed could be equally to a threat to someone as who is not handcuffed. >> they can hit kick were bite
worse better divorce or something. >> yes. nelson: you form the opinion this is an unconscious neck restraint may 25, 2020. >> it was a conscious neck restraint. nelson: the whole de-escalation that offers have to take on -. - officers have to take into consideration the safety of the crowd. >> yes spent have to take into account the reactions of the crowd whether angry or hostile are watching it's all part of the critical decision-making. they have to be aware of their surroundings generally speaking a busy street versus a park different decisions go
into that knowing i>> have other officers that are in place that may be at risk as well. there is lots of critical decision-making model is not singular in its application spirit that's correct. >> lots of information coming in very rapidly.. >> yes. >> i will show you first by stipulation i will play a few seconds of ms. fraser's facebook video. >> to 19 is received.
nelson: this appears to be that time shown to you earlier this is that general time frame the picture appears to be taken from. nelson: this is the image you are shown under direct examination? >> yes. >> it shows officer chauvin, mr. floyd and officer thao. >> yes and that perspective of ms. fraser's phone.
nelson: i have no further questions. >> thank you your honor chief you just testified at that particular moment in time you were viewing former officer keung body worn camera it appears at that moment in time the need of the defendant was more toward the shoulder blade. is that right? that's correct. >> at a time when the
ambulance had already arrived. >> yes. >> very shortly before they loaded mr. floyd on to the gurney. >> that is correct. >> in your view of the body worn camera prior to today did you see the defendants knee anywhere but the neck of mr. floyd up until that time? >> that is correct. schleicher: so the knee of the defendant was on mr. floyd's neck up until the time he just pointed out. >> yes. with that video portion that is the first time the knee of the defendant is on the shoulder blade. schleicher: i was right before the paramedic came. >> that is right. schleicher: talking about the neck restraint policy show exhibit 17 please looking at
exhibit 17, is it your testimony that exhibit 17 is not a trained mpd neck restraint. >> correct. that is my testimony. >> i would like you to reflect on and the exhibit shown by defense counsel 1019 and 1020. during that period of time which is much later of the point in time we see here, do you see any indication that mr. floyd was actively
resisting as defined with the minneapolis police department policy. >> i did not observe mr. floyd to be actively resisting during that time. >> during the same time. did you see any indication that mr. floyd was being actively aggressive during the d clip you are shown? >> no. i did not see mr. floyd being actively resisting. schleicher: can you say he was passively resisting at that time? >> no. as a matter of fact i did not even know mr. floyd was alive at that time. schleicher.
schleicher: i want to revisit the testimony on cross-examination about the use of the hobble. if ind am to understand your testimony you indicated it is a strap that is used to connect a handcuffed person the waist and arms and legs to restrain them. >> that is correct. schleicher: i thought i heard you say in response to questioning by counsel that if you can do the mrt effectively without using a horrible do the same thing with your hand. >> that's correct. schleicher: did i understand your testimony that that is what these officers were doing to use the maximal restraint technique but not using the hobble. >> that is correct and with departmental policy the hobble
is the only author raised way to use that technique. >> that is correct. schleicher: are you aware the actual hobble requires a supervisor to report to the scene and we force report. >> yes. >> that would be avoided if the hobble itself was used? >> no. you are still employing that technique again with the prone individual handcuffed. you are basically doing that maneuver. because of the severity and risk that would've been to mr. floyd, you have contacted aa supervisor. schleicher: aside from that, if you are using the mrt, you are supposed to adhere to departmental policy. >> that is correct. >> the minneapolis department policy requires an officer to do what as soon as the mrt is
applied? >> because of theev severe nature to make sure the individual can breathe, we have to get that recovery one - - individual to decide recovery position to make sure the airway is not obstructed. that is paramount. schleicher: that is required by the policy inside recovery position is supposed to be instant. >> immediate. schleicher: you have indicated it has to do with breathing. you are familiar with the term positional asphyxia. >> i am. schleicher: is that the danger leaving someone prone handcuffed position for too long? >> yes. positional asphyxia as we mentioned we cannot transport people in that position. they are prone and handcuffed with pressure around the airway or back the risk and potential for them or to kill them goes up substantially. that side recovery position is
critically important. schleicher: i went to follow up on the questions of your own personal training and within the roles of the police department. different officers can attend other types of training. but everybody is required to do in service. >> that is correct. >> regardless of where somebody trains, the rules are the rules in the policy applies to all mpd officers. >> yes. schleicher: the question was
posed with the a critical decision-making model needed for information. that is true. correct but looking at u the p proper authorized use of force is it fair to see the amount of force and officer can use depends on the conduct of the subject the person whom the force is being used? >> yes. >> for example, if you had me in a dangerous hold, would you be able to continue to keep me in a dangerous hold based on something somebody else is doing? >> i'm sorry explain that. schleicher: for example if you found the need to place me in a whole that is dangerous. butom something that somebody starting to pick something up to throw at me with that
justify using more force on me? >> no. schleicher. >> in terms of de-escalating the crowd, you indicated there is some potential need to de-escalateat a crowd or group of people you can experience something you find shocking or upsetting and that can place an emotional state. >> correct. schleicher: you may need to turn your attention to de-escalate the crowd. >> yes. schleicher: would one way to de-escalate the crowd who is experiencing something
shocking to stop doing the thing that is shocking them? >> absolutely. schleicher: i have nothing further. >> very briefly one question. their circumstances and officer has to evaluate the situation, hold the person until he or she can decide what is the safest way to move forward. agreed? >> agreed. >> sometimes you have to hold the person. correct? >> yes. >> that something that happens fairly frequently. >> yes. >>o with respect to the policy of the maximum restraint technique in the recovery position or the side recovery position you saiddi it is immediate. agreed? >> as soon as you are able to do a so spent that's what the
policy says. as soon as you are able to do so. there are some certain circumstances you may be using force where the force has to be dealt with before you can ton your attention rendering medical aid. >> counselor are you still talking about somebody in the recovery position? >> there are certain circumstances the use of force needs to be continued for some reason to deal with something else before you can render medical aid. >> i will give you an example. you and i are shooting at each other i am the cop you are the bad guy c you have my partner. i will continue to use my before i can you go vendor medical attention.
[swearing in witness] >> if you don't mind taking of your mask. state your name. >> katie marie blackwell. schleicher: good afternoon. how are you employed? >> minneapolis police department. schleicher: your current position? >>si inspector. schleicher: how long if you been the inspector of the fifth precinct? >> january 31st this year.
schleicher: what was your immediate rank and assignment prior to that? >> commander the training division. schleicher: i like you to tell the jury about yourself first. could you tell us about your educational background in law enforcement? >> my two-year associate's degree in law enforcement at the technical college my four-yearhe bachelor degree at st. mary's university. my masters degree public safety administration. i'm a graduate of northwestern police staff and command them just about to complete a two-year course it's the equivalent of a masters. schleicher:'s when addition to being a place officer you are also in the minnesota national guard. >> i am. a major. schleicher: describe where that falls within the ranks.
>> it's one of the top ranks you can achieve. schleicher: how long have youavv been in the minnesota national guard? >> over 23 years. schleicher: redeployed? >> i was to bosnia peacekeeping and then iraq operation iraqi freedom. schleicher: thank you. tell the jury when you began your law-enforcement career with the minneapolis police department. >> 1999 i worked with the second precinct communitypr response team and basically worked on crimes and alcohol-related. 2000 i became a community service and i was assigned to the fourth precinct. 2002 a police officer worth the first precinct and second precinct mostly 911 response i did work for the first in
three precinct community response team identifies work and narcotics investigations then i did some time with the task force with the violent crimes. 2012 i was promoted to sergeant where i worked sex crimes investigations and then the fourth precinct patrol as supervisor mostly overseeing 911 response and then the response teams. and for patrol. and i went to the assault unit of the investigation violent criminal investigation team and then called case homicide in homicide detective. was then promoted december 2019 to the rank of lieutenant and during that time five it is seven years
that i was assigned to the training division to create great leadership in professional development programs for the department i took on the field training officer program and promoted to commander april 142019. right oversaw the police athletic league community service officers, the police academy interest training overseeing subject matter experts medical support team patrol operations crisis intervention team and recruitment than one call center and with the adult homeless population. schleicher: thank you. as a person who was in command of thehe trading center, are you familiar with basic curriculum offered during that time. you oversaw the operations?
>> yes. >> we familiar with the components that provided training? >> yes. >> before we get into more thorough description of the training center, are you familiar with an individual named derek chauvin. >> i am. schleicher: how are you familiar? >> we worked on the same shift and committee services office together. schleicher: prior to becoming a police officer. you've known him for how long? >> almost 20 years. schleicher: do you recognize derek chauvin in the courtroom today? >> i do. schleicher: please point to him a describe what he is wearing. >> a navy blue suit. t schleicher: the witness has identified the defendant. you and the defendant have worked for the minneapolis police department contemporaneously for nearly
20 years. >> correct. schleicher: when you came into the police department did you go through academy training. >> i did. schleicher: describe the process. >> 16 week academy we learned policy procedures and investigations, defensive tactics, use of force, a lot of scenarios at the end we had to pass. wide curriculum. basically anything that pertains to the job. schleicher: after completing the classroom practical portion of the academy what was the next step? >> it is a field training program approximately five or six months long to become a field training officer.
schleicher: after you completed that you wereer able to get your first assignment? >> correct. schleicher: i would likere you to please describe generally the training center. where is it located? within minneapolis? >> the training center is a former elementary school located on the north side of minneapolis several classrooms we used for training as well as auditoriums and the gym to do hands-on exercises. >> supervised at the commander level? >> it is. >> describe in 2020 when you were overseeing it how was it staff? with a different positions? >> thereng are multiple units of the special operation center facility. for training we had full-time instructors, use of force
instructors operations, medical support team for civilians and support staffo members. schleicher: how many lieutenants? >> at the time there were three. schleicher: and what areas? >> one was service another was use of force program and the other one oversaw leadership professionalro development programs and assessment center with individuals specialty things. schleicher: who was the lieutenant over the defense attack. >> lieutenant verso one - - verso. schleicher: what happens during preservicera training no?
>> pre- services the police academy. we have two different types of police academies we recruit for the cadet program. currently when i was a commander was in 1819 weight police academy they would go through and have to pass before they could enter into the field training program may have a lot of use of force in defensive tactics, they train on investigations, scenarios, de-es intervention and heavy emphasis on the policy and patrol operations. schleicher: the training provided for example with defensive tactics, is that different in preservice then during in-service training? >> it's not different is just longer and more of it in the academy. schleicher: one moment. if i may your honor.
[sidebar] schleicher: it's fair to say the training that is offered about the academy is a more thorough version of what's offered at in-service. >> correct. schleicher: service focuses on classroom training and a curriculum developed by the defensive tactic instructors teams. it typically shows a powerpoint presentation going overd the rules and minneapolis police department policies. >> correct. schleicher: for in-service. but the academy goes through the same concept of material that a more extended way. >> yes. schleicher: youu also mentioned a field training program in
order to have a field training program we have field training officer's? > correct. schleicher: the fieldet training officer's need to be aware of what the people in preservice are doing as far as what they are learning with defensive tactics? >> yes. >> is it true sometimes feel training officers will receive instructed one - - instruction of defensive tactics just the same as someone in preservice training? >> correct. schleicher: what's the purpose to make sure feel training officerspr are aware of what the training is in preservice? >> consistency of howce we recruit officers on the street. schleicher: was the defendant a field training officer? >> he was. schleicher: how long? >> i don't know off the top of my head. schleicher: did you select him as a field training officer? >> i did.
schleicher: you mentioned a variety of different courses taken at the workforce center. is it important to keep record of the training? >>. important. police minnesota p office requires us to complete so much training per year some of that is 48 hours continuing education over the course of three years. animal use of force, weapon qualification mental health crisis procedural justice the one third of that 16 hours roughly has to be in compliance with the minnesota board. to keep those records are critical to make sure so that they can do an audit.
schleicher: you rely onfi those records to make these reporting's to the post board so you have qualified officers on staff. >> correct. schleicher: in the ordinary course of your business in the police department. >> yes. schleicher: i would like to show the witness exhibit 203 for identification inspector. take a look at exhibit 203. a familiar with w these records? >> i am. schleicher: how? >> these are training records we track in our system.
we maintain these records each officer is to sign in the morning and the afternoon. and the coordinator will up though these intoo the officers file to keep track of the training somebody who did not make the training or needs to make it up for any additional training that they have. schleicher: like to go to the last page for the witness. do you see this particular workforce record goes back to thousand three. why is that? >> that's when the workforce director started. schleicher: prior to that was a different system? how long were those records retained? how long did mpd retain the training records? >> seven years. once we have them they will be
the syllabus they will be put in the drive but the paper archived by down to a central location in the city. schleicher: for seven years. >> correct. schleicher: these areo the records we have for this particular individual going back through 2003. exhibit 203 the defendants training records. >> yes. schleicher: permission to publish. if you can scroll up and highlight the first record entry. you can see these records are organized in a way that generally labels the course to
so you can see with these records it's listed as 2019 annual in-service training and refers to phase three. what is annual in-service training? >> itth consists of three phases of training. the first phase will have two days of in-service training for officers and that goes january through april with phase two the shotgun qualifications of medical training and that is the beginning and then phase three is the fall in-service training with two days of different curriculum that are mandated that the chief wants us to do our we try to do personal development courses.
schleicher: regardless of the specific trainer if an individual from nt on - - mpd is taking phase three in all in-service training should they be learning theom same thing on a particular day as anyone else taking phase three training? >> yes they should. schleicher: 2018. fto. here you see what is mark 2018 fto training program. that is field training officer. >> yes. schleicher: is is a trainer program? >> yes>> fto coordinator and myself as a lieutenant put on a training with a variety of
different instructors to teach the class. schleicher: what is taught at fto training? >> it's a 40 hour course primary emphasis on leadership, critical decision-making model, to recruit observationn. performance evaluation so the fto manual and then giving tips and then we do some scenarios whether critical decision-making model. it appointment of human resources to come in to explain the jobs as a field training officer. basically trying to make sure they understood what they are being taught because we were going to evaluate them and then the supervisor that the young recruit has.
schleicher: if i understood your prior testimony, defensive tactics and use of force is trained every year during the regular in-service. >> correct. schleicher: so for example in 2018, the defendant would have then instructed the defensive tactics and proper use of force at least twice. once during the 2018 fto training program and once during the regular in-service. >> correct. schleicher: i would like to the witness to display exhibit 275. does that appear to be a handwritten record like a sign in roster for a particular course? >> itn is. >> and the academy and defensive tactics with the academy? >> correct.
>> thena second name on the list is that appear to be the name ofof the defendant? >> it is. schleicher: indicates the defendant did receive on november 30, 2018 that defensive tactics training is taught in the academy. >> yes. >> offer exhibit 275. >> received. >> permission to publish. >> highlight this portion. you caner see the number of training hours here with eight. >> correct. >> that would be between
defensive tactics is taught at the academy. >> yes. >> again the purposes so the purpose and can a be effective fieldit training officer to know the training for the cadets and that what the recruits are taught preservice. >> yes. schleicher: go back to hundred three. second page. 2018. highlight that please.
highlight that section please. so you can see 2018 shotgun and cit training. a seven hour block. >> yes. schleicher: what is that stand for? >> crisis intervention training like mental health. >> is also training for procedural justice and training in 2018. >> correct. schleicher: with the crisis intervention training this is a fairly short block. >> and to qualify with the shotguns.t >> and that original block or
defendant attended crisis intervention training with the 40 hour course? >> it does. schleicher: in addition to the defensive tactics and use of force training does in-service training require regular medical or combat lifesaver training? >> yes there is a medical component.tr can you describe that training entails? >> the medical support team consisted of a full-time trainer those areti certified as paramedics to conduct cpr training and tourniquets and life-saving measures. with dyslexia.
with delirium, opioids, things relate to our job so they can better assess the situation when they get to a call to render first-aid. schleicher. schleicher: you are play with positional asphyxia? what is your understanding? >> positional asphyxia is if you are in a position you are not able to adequately breathe. something is interfering with your airway. schleicher: if an individual is prone handcuff position for example face down, that could inhibit their ability to breathe. >> yes. schleicher: cause us on - - positional asphyxia. >> yes. schleicher: what officer supposed to do? >> put them in the side recovery position going from proud and then to the upright position. schleicher: how soon are they
supposed to do p that after getting the person under control and a proposition? >> as soon as possible. schleicher: how long have you known about potential dangers of positional asphyxia? >> we've taught that all the way back in the academy. schleicher: minneapolis police department. schleicher: that is known throughout the department as long as you have been employed there? >> correct. schleicher: your employment overlaps with the defendants. >> yes. as part of the medical training in addition to how to with emergency medical care are officers taught their obligation to provide and
render emergency assistance when circumstances arrive? >> yes. >> you are familiar with the minneapolis critical decision-making model. >>inin i am. schleicher: releasing the circle aew few times but that is infused throughout different portions of the training material. >> it is. >> we want to ensure that the experience officers understand the critical decision-making model the more experience you have the more you can walk through it. but it was helping them connect the dots for the information they were receiving onam the scene and then constantly reassessing but that procedural justice in the middle and then with the recruits in the in-service. schleicher: he said the critical decision-making model
was used to reassess people going to the fto process? >> yes the field training officer program we have scenarios where they debrief my communityty service officer so use that scenario. schleicher: going to the steps of assessing risk and threat then reassessing and evaluating goals and then relating that to the pillars ofus procedural justice any field training officer would be required to do with the people they are evaluating. >> correct. schleicher: your defensive tactics training you are not only showing arele having or
officers learn the nuts and bolts of defensive tactics but also the rules of engagement. >> correct. schleicher: those are contained in the minneapolis police department policies. and rules apply to everyone. you, recruits, cadets, field training and experience officers as well. >> correct. schleicher: i like to show you what has been received as exhibit 17. schleicher: as you look at exhibit number 17 is this a trained technique by the minneapolis police department when you were overseeing training? >> it is not.
schleicher: why not? >> use of force has to be consistent with mpd training and what we trained for next restraint is conscious and unconscious. the policy is compressing wonderful sides of the neck using an arm or leg but what we trained is using one arm or two arms to do a neck restraint. schleicher: how doess this differ? >> i would say an improvised position. that is not what we trained. schleicher: i have no further questions. [sidebar]
>> good afternoon. i want to have a few follow-up questions when we look at the exhibits that you see 2020 definitive tactics in service it is worth eight hours of time. agreed? >> correct. nelson: in the course of that eight hours officers t may go through multiple trainings during that eight hour time. >> correct the spirit they rotate. nelson: so within that eight hour timeas frame they may get a class of an hour-long class on factors or an hour-long course on handcuffing techniques. it varies within each of the eight hour time frame.
>> correct. nelson: do you m maintain a list that shows a 2020 these are the classes that occurred during those eight hours? >> we have. >> have you provided that list in response to the search warrant that w was executed to the police department? > yes. nelson: in terms of the defensive training tactics or any of these continuing education classes, other officers that have actually trained classes and multiple officers may appear during that eight hour time. >> yes we have part-time trainer. >> maybe one personho will teach the human factors are for someone else may train on crisis intervention.
multiple instructors. right? >> correct. >> a lot of the instructors will use material from past instructors or a combination of things and just we presented in a slightly different format. >> yes. nelson: for the record i want to ask you, you said with minneapolis police department with a search warrant all training materials for the four involved officer. >> correct. >> this would be materials some from the police academy some materials from in-service. just a variety of different record. >> correct. nelson: 30000 pages perhaps? >> thousands. nelson: have you for the questions. >> you are excused.