tv Day 7 of Trial for Derek Chauvin Accused in Death of George Floyd CSPAN April 6, 2021 2:31pm-4:28pm EDT
17 if i could publish that. you see exhibit 17 and you see the defendant on top of the subject you know to be george floyd, is that right? >> yes, sir. >> is this use of force? >> yes, sir. >> you can take that down. in terms of using force, using it safely, what you teach it trainees about the frailty of the human body is important to be careful, is that right? >> yes, very important. >> some parts of the body are more prone to injury than others, correct? >> correct. >> you train on that, is that right? >> yes. >> exhibit 119, page 49.
>> we prefer that you take your mask off. before you begin -- [inaudible] [background noises] begin by giving us for full name. >> nicole mckenzie. >> good afternoon. how are you employed? >> minneapolis police department. >> how long have you been employed with the police department? three years. >> what is your current role? >> i am a police officer. >> do you have a specific duty assignment? >> i do, on the medical coordinator for the department.
>> before we talk about that role, i'd like you to share about yourself with the jury, how long have you been a police officer, in law enforcement? >> i've been in law enforcement for about six years. >> did you have a career prior to going into law enforcement? >> i did. human resources. >> what is your educational background? >> associates is degree from a bachelors degree in business, i am an emt, i also have my law enforcement certificate and i am an instructor. >> you worked in human resources, that is your original plan? >> correct. >> how long have you wanted to be a police officer? >> is something i've always wanted to do, i just kind of talk myself out of it one way or another but eventually found my way back. >> can you please tell the jury how you entered law enforcement, did you go through the academy?
>> yes, i became a cadet, the department sponsor educational components, that i was eligible in the state of minnesota. >> how long of a program. >> i think it was about nine months total. >> after you completed in class classroom portion of the academy what did you go through field training? >> i did. >> how long was that? >> at that time was about five and a half, six months. >> as an officer with minneapolis police department, are you familiar with some of the officers who also work in the department? >> yes. >> are you familiar with the name derek chauvin? how are you familiar with that name? >> i was with him while on a po for one day, also he attended my
training at the department. >> would you recognize him, you see him in the courtroom? describe what he is wearing. >> he's in a light gray suit. >> may the record reflect witness identified the defendant. >> it will. >> you indicated your the medical support coordinator, is that right? >> yes. >> please describe the jury what that role entails? >> there are some different components, primarily for education. the in-service, continuing policy for officers and i am also on the program we have. >> what is the narcan program? >> the training administration
pharmaceutical for overdoses. >> narcan, is that something officers have available to them. >> yes matthew provides specific training regarding use of narcan? >> i do. >> also, you provide medical training both at the academy and in-service? >> correct. >> are you familiar with the requirements from department and post requirements how often officers are supposed to train in medical procedures? >> yes, with the board, when you apply for the examination, you do have to have emr revocation, emergency medical responder, i can be terribly specific but the minneapolis police department, we give education every year on
medical. >> he said it doesn't require anything more specific, can you explain that? >> with educational requirements for the continuing, as long as you the minimum number of hours, there are certain topics they require of you to complete about other ones with the minneapolis police department, we go above and beyond what's required so that's where we at in the training to make you do that every year? >> we do. >> are police officers required to have specific cpr card? >> not a card, you're not required to have that beyond your initial certification. >> when you're initially, you are? >> correct, it's required be eligible to take post exam. >> some officers will continue to pay the cpr card? >> correct. >> required to obtain it?
it's about a four hour class, there is a written test skills examination test. >> what does it cover? >> it includes adult cpr and aed as well as. >> i'd like to display to the witness, not to the jury, exhibit 277 for identification. take a look at what's marked as exhibit 277, does that appear to be american bar association cpr card? >> correct. >> is that the tarp of card you administer? >> yes. >> while it's not required some officers continue with them about the cards are maintained in the record of the minneapolis police department? >> if they have taken a full force to the minneapolis police department, we would not be a
cardholder. >> exhibit 278, that appears to be a cpr card of a different year? >> correct. >> exhibit 277 to 78. >> 277 to 78. >> published exhibit 277 and highlight that portion. does this appear to be a cpr aed card issued to derek chauvin? march 2012 through march 2014? >> correct. >> if we could slay exhibit 278. cpr card issued to the defendant january 14 -- >> correct.
[background noises] when you provide training, medical training to law enforcement officers, does that training get reported into the workforce system to report? >> yes. >> when did you start personally delivering the training? >> i've been part-time instructor since 2017 and assumed full-time january 2020. >> how many times you think you provide this training to law enforcement officers? >> specifically? >> yes. >> i would say 20 to 30 sessions. >> if you could use a powerpoint
to do your medical presentation every year? >> we do. >> if i could show you exhibit 111 just to the witness, not the jury, exhibit 111, do you recognize what appears to be the first part? >> yes. >> if we could turn to the second page of 111, does not appear -- mpd cpr? >> correct. >> have you personally delivered this slide deck before? >> i have. >> approximately how many times? >> this was in-service 2019 and bike estimation, this was probably over the course of maybe 12 sessions or so, 12 or 15 and i am responsible for about a third of them. >> if they intend any of your sessions? >> i'm not sure. >> you are provided training for everyone consistently took in-service in 2019?
>> correct. iran one of those stations so theoretically, he would have come through my skills station at some time. >> at this time, you can take this down, i'm going to offer exhibit 111. >> 111 is received. >> in general terms, do you provide the jury an overview of specific medical training you provide to law enforcement officers on an annual basis. >> for in-service specifically? >> in-service, yes. >> we do offer a wide variety, depending on how many training sessions will be available but at minimum, every year we touch on cpr and 80 -- 80 and we are also going over a class on narcan, that is minimum. if we have more training spots available, we can add in more classes. >> are you aware whether minneapolis police department
has a specific policy regarding rendering of emergency aid? >> we do. >> could you provide the jury high-level overview of what the policy requires? >> high-level summary of first aid policy is going to be requesting ems resources to anybody who needs it or request it and rendering first aid consistent with your training received. >> does the policy allow you to do one or the other, can you just call for ambulance and not to emergency medical procedures? >> it depends on the situation specifically, if there was no need for immediate first aid, maybe a small cut or operation, it would be appropriate to just wait but if it is a critical situation, you have to do both. >> i'd like you to walk us
through specific training you provide, exhibit 111. published exhibit 111, starting on page six. let's go back to page one. page one -- explain. >> this is an image of the clip taken from the classic movie dumb and dumber and a video clip we show at the beginning of training, more or less a class. >> i'd like to cover this portion, page six and review the portion of the slide deck.
>> this training was primarily focused on cpr we did throw in pieces of information because we have time available to us, we briefly touched on other things taught, technical casualty care basically rendering aid for more traumatic injuries and provide an update on our narcan program as far as usage and things they've learned, initially and rolled out and the remainder of the time was focused on full cpr. >> if you could go to page 221 of exhibit 111. for the jury, would you describe using the slide, walk us through what specific training provide of the minneapolis police department, cpr.
>> when we are seeing a medical situation going on about illness or injury, we have a pneumatically walk through to make sure we have the basics. you are with somebody we start with an acronym, adp you, that's the level of responsiveness. then we work through abc, airway breathing and circulation. >> i'd like you to go to the next page, 22. walk the jury through this assessment tool. >> certainly. when you determine the level of response, you kind of walk through your model to see where they land so if somebody is alert, that means as soon as i walked into the room, look at
be, i determined that person is alert, i don't need to go any further. the role would be maybe going to somebody, try to get their attention, burglar stimuli. then respond to fatigue, which is pain. something like press against the fingernail, just looking for a response, something that somebody would pull away from. causing injury. se but just a little stimulus to see if they pull away from you or something and if they don't respond, you determine that person is unresponsive. >> i'd like to talk about the pain stimuli of breathing. it sounds like the assessment
tool, what the training is doing, apply painful stimulus to see if they react, is that right? >> correct. >> is it possible to determine responsive without intentionally without inflicting pain for the purpose of checking stimuli? for example, observing whether the person continues to react in a painful stimulus? >> can you rephrase that? >> sure. >> if you came upon an individual who was injured and crying out or assessing pain as a result of the injury but sometime they stop being verbal and responding to the pain, could not be assigned of nonresponsive? >> correct. >> once you determine an individual is unresponsive, what you do? >> doctor the next acronym, abc.
>> if you could return to page 21. >> airway breathing circulation? >> correct. >> go to page 23. describe to the jury what you train officers to do based on the slide in exhibit 111. >> after you determine there level of responsiveness, you first check their airway, just put them in the most ideal position where there airway can be exposed. >> what is the next step? >> pulling up the head slightly so whether it's a ted held, open up there airway. the next step is moved into
checking for breathing if you don't keep the chest rise, just put your hand on the center of the chest to see if it moves up and down. >> what is the next step? >> circulation, check carotid pulse under the jaw. >> are there other places officers are trained they can used to check for a pulse? >> absolutely, your wrist, you are multiple points on your body to check but this is the most important. >> what are officers trained to do if they are unable to find a pulse? >> if you don't have a pulse, immediately start cpr. >> i want you to go back to the concept of checking for breathing, you indicated you can look for chest rising and falling, is that right? >> yes. >> you train officers as part of
your training, you train officers if a person can talk means they can breathe? >> no. >> why not? >> there is the possibility somebody can be in respiratory distress and still verbalize. just because they are speaking doesn't mean they are breathing adequately. >> getting back to circulation, he indicated the officer cannot find a pulse, they are to start cpr. describe done to start cpr. >> if you haven't already contacted ems, do not immediately. then it's a matter of interlocking your fingers, center of the chest and push down about a third of the depth of the person at the rate of about one be a minute. >> is this something getting
back to mpd policy, the officer is trained, required to do while waiting for the ambulance? not just. >> when is the officer supposed to stop cpr? >> when you relieve to somebody with higher level of training or maybe if there is obvious signs of life or if you're absolutely just physically exhausted from doing cpr. >> if you could display page 27 of the exhibit. officers are specifically trained on this, right? >> correct. >> if the subject becomes responsive or wakes up or someone else takes over as you stated, you physically can't do it anymore. >> correct. >> is this consistent with the training you provide every year to each law enforcement officer
[background noises] i think i'm ready now. thank you for joining us today. a few follow-up questions, you been with the minneapolis police department about six years at this time? >> correct. >> you said your emt, as well? >> yes. >> as far as the minneapolis police department is concerned, there are officers trained essentially as first responders, correct? >> correct with the emr certification. >> emergency -- >> medical responder. >> swords a lower level of medical training. >> correct. >> you may go to a cpr class and then your first responder and then emt paramedic, correct? >> yes. >> so you experienced, did you work as an emt as well as -- >> i did.
>> you have experience both as a police officer as well as anti- >> correct. >> you testified part of your role now is running the medical program is to present officers with information as to multiple medical issues they've made, they may encounter. >> correct. >> is not limited to just first aid for first responders cpr. >> no, we teach wellness classes, nutrition, we have a wide variety of classes. >> and you have classes on topics including -- >> correct. >> you have topics including administration of narcan? >> correct. >> officers, all minneapolis lease officers permitted to carry narcan. >> yes. >> do all receive the training? >> yes. >> some medical topics in these education classes they may come up in our here or a half hour
there in service? >> depends on the officer, he is. >> emr stuff is kind of a standalone class, there may be, it is a longer class? >> correct. that's basically your initial medical training you are required to get the certification. that's about 40 hours. >> then you have refresher classes on that stuff as well, correct? >> continuing on the same topic, the minneapolis police department doesn't require them to keep their emr notification. >> so the certification we saw mr. chauvin had expiring in 2016, i believe. >> cpr. >> are officers required to have cpr every two years after that? >> we do cpr classes on a rotating basis so every other year they go through it. >> i would like to talk to you
the policy is somewhat call qualified meaning that if as soon as reasonably practice, correct pretty. >> correct. >> so one of the things in a string between officers today was the administration first-aid is to consider other circumstances. >> correct, have to make sure that your sake before your able to render aid. >> right and being safe could not being safe could be coming from a number of factors correct printed environmental factors such as where you are located right pretty. >> yes printed. >> whether there is a lot of traffic correct. >> correct. >> were a lot of bystanders, correct and depending on their behavior. >> yes. >> so safety is important in fact minneapolis police, or the
mts don't come to a scene until it's generally as court for pretty. >> generally, yes pretty. >> so often not uncommon for emcees to stage off-site until please call the scene coded for correct, being all clear come on in. a. >> yes printed. >> so in that situation if it's deemed unsafe, the mts do not come in at that point. >> correct. >> the other policy that we deal with here. >> there too any things open here. is the policy for the minneapolis police policy seven - 350, with you right now.
>> yes. >> yes instances relative to the emergency medical response, the rate card to request ems as soon as practical, correct pretty. >> correct. >> maybe certain things can prevent an officer for calling in the ms, correct pretty. >> cup absolutely pretty. >> to both of the medical policies are contingent upon what is going on at the scene at the time. [inaudible]. >> in terms of exhibit 111 which is the cpr presentation that you have presented and turned to. [inaudible]. [inaudible].
>> i'm going to turn to 21586, down at the bottom there there is a reference to breathing. what is that mean. it. >> it is something for somebody who was unresponsive in there and some sort of a threat. we see this quite often with opioid overdoses, medical emergencies surrounding what is happening. >> and can you could describe what exactly bacchanal breathing is. >> my name, it's kind of a bad term for it because is not effective breathing. this marlis kind of a near regular gasp for air. like it last ditch effort. >> and in person observing somebody going through egg milk breathing, it would be that they would be misinterpret that as
actual breathing. it. >> yes, they could see this, that's what we say it is not effective. >> so an officer is dealing with someone who is experiencing egg and no breathing, could potentially be possible for an officer to misinterpret that echo breathing for effective breathing. >> yes. >> and in certain circumstances where there's a lot of noise or a lot of commotion that the more than likely that could happen. >> yes. >> you are showing the slide in terms of when we stop cpr and one of the reasons that you stop performing cpr because it is not safe, correct. >> correct pretty. >> i referring to the process of actually the environment or -
>> it would be the environment. >> so it stands to reason that if the environment around you, he would determined to be not safe, you may not start it right away. >> that would be accurate a reasonable yes. >> you also testified use of mark m correct. >> i'm going to show you. [inaudible]. , you can see this training in front of you. is a training that you provide to minneapolis police officers. yes. and this would be administered for this is the program that the broader course on how to administer that's correct pretty. >> correct. >> and you recognize this is record you keep in the ordinary course of the business pretty.
>> permission to publish 1041. >> this is from the minneapolis police department and served in july 2018. >> correct pretty. >> and he had attended this program or is in-service in july through september of 2018, he would've received the training correct pretty. >> correct. >> in recent years fentanyl has become more of a concern for officers to be aware of. >> absolutely. >> ultimately between officers and the use of narcan to indicate or to contradict i should say, the effects of including fentanyl rated. >> correct. >> in europe experience as medical trainer and a police officer, have you experienced combinations of the drugs by
[inaudible]. >> can you describe to the jury what this is. >> is essentially combination of an upper and a downer rated. >> is a become common place in your experience. >> yes. >> is fentanyl has become more prominent, do you see that in legal forms such as patches or other pills that may be administered by hospital. do you see that on the streets. >> yes you'll see for all purposes, also for it is manufactured tran 19. >> he was going to the jury, whether in your experience using this fentanyl use on the rise.
>> yes, absolutely. >> and i am just going to show you generally when you talk about somebody, you show it to the officers and his training. and when somebody is on the experiencing and opioid overdose, they may see this type of behavior is not correct. >> yes. >> somebody may fall asleep, great tyrant kind of out of it correct. >> yes. >> with this be consistent with what you would it's a generally on a opioid overdose. >> it could be. >> i'm using that they can be more responsive. >> yes. >> even though they have taken and opioid. >> correct. >> in terms of fentanyl, can you explain the slide. >> so this is what could be
considered illegal does. larry know how dangerous heroin is and you can see the twice amount of that, could be deadly with the fentanyl and even more so with others. >> so fentanyl even a very small doses can be fatal, would that be accurate pretty i will rephrase the question. [inaudible]. [inaudible].
[inaudible]. [inaudible]. >> so these are the training materials that you presented to the minneapolis police officers relevant to the use of nor controls the princes and also narcan. in the performance of their duties, correct. >> correct. >> in terms of just again, general training you would already said that you discussed that officers in the contents of
this correct. >> correct. >> can you provide them with training materials about what that means, correct. yes. and generally speaking, without reviewing the training materials can you describe what you training minneapolis police department about. >> nineteen it at his taught at the academy, one of a block of instructions and signs and symptoms of the best responses for handling it. it is a combination of motor education and psychosis, hypothermia, wide variety think you might see in person or really bizarre behavior in recognizing this is a medical
condition, not necessarily a criminal matter. >> with that include discussion of controlled substances. in the context of delirium. >> yes, because that most of the people that are expressing something like you said, delirium, usually there illicit drugs. that would be a contributing factor. >> so as far as what you training minneapolis police officers relevant to the physical attributes of the person experiencing delirium. >> the person must be experiencing the hypothermia, accelerated body temperature and 70 taken off of their close, and a place not appropriate to take a few close, the winter something like that. and just based on their activity, their outbreak might be elevated in my to be
insensitive to pain. >> how does it affect strength. >> because you don't really have that pain compliance, normally it would controls buddies behavior so if somebody somebody is experiencing this, they might have what we call superhuman strength. it might be able to lift things that they wouldn't normally be able to lift. they might be breaking things or have blood like substances that you need to be cautious of. >> thank you and in terms of and i will just pack up and talk a little bit more about the response to a medical emergency by ems based on your experience as a police officer and any empty. you talked about how sometimes ems will stage off-site until the scene is clear and safe,
correct. >> correct. >> can you describe to the jury what this is pretty. >> is more like of an informal use for first responders that essentially means that the citizen going to be arriving, is a priority deed that person into the ambulance as soon as possibly get in route to the hospital as soon as possible. >> are the reasons why an empty or paramedic would choose to do that rather than administering first aid at the scene. >> yes. >> one of those reasons. [inaudible]. [inaudible]. >> by way of example, maybe somebody has not been addressed, obviously there thinking you can do that for the person prehospital, maybe that person will need immediate surgery.
>> so there may be conditions of the individual that warrants that type of pick up and go. >> yes. >> what about people in the area, could that effect and emts decision to loading go. >> yes predict if you have a volatile crowd, it sounds unreasonable but bystanders do occasionally attack. so sometimes just being out of the situation some of the best ways to defuse it. >> have you ever had to perform an emergency services and just not even a hospital but just an excited crowded. as that in your experience, more or less difficult pretty. >> in critical difficult. because if you're trying to be hunched down on the patient that you need to render aid to come
is very difficult to focus on patient while there's other things around you. if you do not feel safe around you, you have enough resources. it is very difficult to focus on the one thing in front of you. >> i can be destructive. >> absolutely. >> does make it difficult to assess the patient and make it more likely that you may miss signs that a patient is experiencing symptoms. >> yes. >> is of the distraction can actually harm the potential care of the patient. >> yes. >> i have no further questions. [inaudible].
>> in the officers trainings, sometimes they have to provide emergency medical services in less than ideal conditions pretty yes. so the record emergency aid this practice in a classroom setting. so you are environment is fine. is that right pretty. >> yes. a. >> in terms of a crowded hospital, how would you define hostility. >> that the contingent of people around is that yelling and even verbally abusive to those who are trying to provide security. >> what health. >> maybe they try to interfere with the crime scene on patient. >> or they have to use a weapon or for a rocks and bottles or something like that could prevent somebody from providing
emergency aid, is that right. >> yes. >> can the activities of a crowd, can the crowds of a group of onlookers excused a police officer the duty to render emergency medical aid to the subject needs it rated. >> only if they were physically given themselves involved. >> and they were physically prevented or if the officer was put physically prevented from doing it. >> yes. [inaudible]. >> i wanted to talk a little bit about the things that you said work under indicative under delirium, superhuman strength is that right pretty. >> yes pretty. >> which is a because of the inability to feel the pain. >> is a part of it yes. >> in the inability to feel the pain is something that you associate whether you train the officers with the delirium greatest. >> it could be the delirium, yes. >> so they were manifesting a
response indicating the survey was hurting them. that would tend to implicate that they are not suffering from delirium is that right. [background noises]. >> over the response to the pain stimulus suggest that as a relates to excited delirium greatest. >> it may or may not become as a little bit hard to predict because no two people really present exact same way. >> so then how do you tell what it is. >> this not diagnosis come as a matter of in the information that you have at that time to provide this could potentially or you need to plan accordingly. >> and you indicated that whatever excited delirium is, you look at it as a medical issue that needs treatment. >> yes. >> in terms of a drug use is welcome is fair to say that if someone is showing drug intoxication, it can make them
vocal, not just violent. >> thank you and nothing further. [inaudible]. >> let's take ten minutes to deal with one issue so ten minutes and then we will be back in touch. >> is a seventh day of trial, the former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin charge in the death of george floyd on ma. they're taking as you heard the say, a ten minute break and we will to as well just to a reminder though that in case you missed any of the testimony today, we will repair it tonight at 8:00 o'clock eastern and all of her coverage of this trial from minneapolis available at cspan dot org and while they're in this break, we will show you some of the testimony from earlier. >> just to remind you that you
are still under oath. >> thank you your honor, when we left off, we were looking at exhibit 119, page 56 and we are discuss what your training is regarding handcuffing. can you please explain to the jury how we train minneapolis police officers and handcuffing technique and use of force pretty. >> we teach several different positional handcuffing techniques as well as how to approach people they're going to be handcuffed. and then once we make contact, how to properly place on the cuffs and procedures. one cup at a time, and then was there on and under control, code for as we call it, things are calm down to the point we have control of the submission you want to make sure that you check
the cuffs and double looking for their safety. you tend to access to tighten up in the person. so you might need to double lock the gunshots. double lock is abundant to use, prevents them from coming undone. >> there are several different conditions that an officer can be and when they are handicapped suspect that right pretty the officer could be in any - >> were going to take you back to the courthouse, the judge and the attorneys are there. the jury has been dismissed for ten minutes for recess but there in a conference a judicial conference right now. we will stay here life. >> i'm going to you excuse you from this pretty she can be excused at this point right pretty the defense would like to call you back.
and so, at some point so you have multi- contact information. and you were previously some sort of subpoena and that you should next tuesday at 9:00 a.m. and most likely will tell you exactly when so that you know. does that work. okay. i'll let you know when it will be served. [inaudible]. >> roughly, yes. [inaudible]. >> for today, you are excused, thank you. >> we will be in recess. [inaudible].
[inaudible]. >> for the judge and some of the attorneys are taking care of procedural matters is your persona break will be for the next five or ten minutes or so. i will show you test my from early and rejoining the trial life when they return. >> just a reminder that you're still under oath. >> thank you. sir when you left off, we are looking at a exhibit 119, page 56 were starting to discuss regarding can track and trend cuffing. can you explain's explain how
you train minneapolis police officers in the handcuffing techniques and the use of force pretty. >> we take several different positional handcuffing techniques as well as how to approach people when they're going to be handcuffed. and then once we make contact with the person how to properly place the cuffs and procedures afterwards. it's too much honey properly cuffs pretty. >> one cup at a time and was there on, under control, code for as we call it, things called out to the point we have control of the subject rated you want to make sure that you double lock the cuffs for their safety. you tend to tighten up in the person be mindful of handcuffs. >> double locking prevents the further tightening greatest my guess is just a little button to push prevents the cuffs from either coming undone are going
in. >> >> there several different positions that an officer can be and when there and having a subject is that right. the officer could be in any different positions relative to the subject when they are handcuffing. >> absolutely they're very dynamic. >> and prone and i would like you to please describe to the very the techniques are used to prone handcuffs the suspect. >> prone handcuffing you and isolate an army teach the officers to use a need to control the shoulder read generally put money on each side of the upper shoulder and in the middle of the back excuse me. and then the arm present - and then you handcuffed them and a lot of times when you're doing the prone cuffing, you do that with a partner preferably. makes it a lot easier to control. >> in a somebody is handcuffed
and you are using your knee on the back or shoulder to gain control do you leave it there for an extended period of time. >> it depends on the circumstance, you can leave it there for longer predict time depending on what you get pretty. >> and what would signal to you that the trainer when you are supposed to release your knee pretty. >> when their behavior de-escalate. >> relative to the handcuffing. [inaudible]. >> so once you have accomplished the handcuffing, so there's actually the handcuffed, is that the appropriate time to release your leg. >> not necessarily. when people are handcuffing the prone position, they can pressure up and they can and do present a little bit of a threat, they can kick and some of the thinks greatest no control does not end with the
handcuffing. >> if the subject is resistant, correct. >> correct. >> the mere possibility the potential of the subject could resist like that kicking, is a justification to leave your leg in place. >> i wouldn't say . [inaudible]. >> some of the subject is handcuffed and compliant and not resisting. it is the officer to remove their knee. >> that would be the appropriate time. >> and how long than is a person subject and left in the prone handcuffed position once they are compliant. >> and he depends on the circumstances. and with the surrounding environment to us as well. >> so assume the circumstances that i just said, the subject is prone, handcuffed and no longer resisting. >> reasonably necessary at the time to do it, then you should get them into a different
position. and that depends on circumstances but, you can put them in the recovery position on the side or pick them up or stand them up. >> why would you want to put them into a different position. >> there is a possibility and risk that some people have weekly briefing when handcuffs are we back they are on their stomach rated. >> it was a notice. >> please rephrase. >> positional effects you are you familiar with the phrase. >> yes pretty. >> is at the danger you're trying to avoid it by putting somebody in the side recovery position. >> that is one of the dangers. yes. >> sustained. rephrase pretty. >> you testified that you're familiar with the positional effects you. yes pretty. >> why we drove somebody into the side recovery position after given handcuffed and are compliant read.
>> several reasons but one would be to prevent potential situation where they might be subject to positional fixation. >> and how soon as the person to be placed in the side recovery position after they become compliant and no longer resisting. >> when at the scene is code for new are able to do it. >> in terms of subject safety, how soon should the person be put into the side recovery position. >> i was a sooner the better. >> you testified that there are circumstances in which the subject can offer further resistance even though there handcuffed. i would like to direct your attention to page 58, exhibit 219. in this light it discusses the restraint techniques that right.
>> yes pretty. >> particular device used pretty. >> the restraint. [inaudible]. >> can you please describe the maximal restraint technique to the jury. >> the subject is handcuffed in the back generally, that is the way we like to handcuffed people and they continue to cause a threat to you or the people are themselves. we use the maximal strain technique which is the nylon strap the clamp on it. and you would wrap it around her legs. then connected to the front of the body if possible. you get a belt loop or a second restraint run the raised at that vincent likes of the legs are no longer a threat to kick you type of thing. threaded 90 degrees angles angles not able to extend the
legs out to kick you if they are a threat. >> are you aware that the use of the maximal straight technique is guided or recovered by policy pretty. >> yes it is pretty. >> five - 3016. it. >> yes. >> is a more than one device that is authorized to perform the maximal restraint technique greatest mckay believe it's just the rep hobble the one that we use. >> so if an officer reasonably believes that the subject is furnishing, which recommended the use this maximal technique to ensure their safety. >> yes. >> that they do so in accordance with the policies five - 316, the training. what is the officer need to do after the subject has been placed in this prone pretty.
>> place them into a recovery position. as soon as possible. >> why. it. >> when you further restrict their ability to move their ability to break. >> we have another short break. are we going to push through it, no. we are going to take another break. you may call your next witness. >> thank you your honor, the state calls jody.
>> the los angeles police department. i'm a sergeant. >> and you understand that you are here today serving as a retained expert for the state in this matter is that correct printed so this is outside of your typical duties as a sergeant with a police department pretty. >> yes or i am on vacation. >> all right welcome to minnesota. and before you begin your testimony, i would like you to introduce yourself and share a little bit about your background with the jury. personal how old are you pretty. >> i am 50. >> and you indicated that are currently is a sergeant with the lapd. can you please describe for the jury how you came to be involved in law enforcement. >> yes so, shortly after in the marine corps, i joined the los angeles police department in april 1993 pretty yesterday with my 20 year anniversary the
police academy after graduatinge police academy, of assigned to a patrol division and from there, i was recruited to work undercover in high schools to buy drugs. >> the los angeles high schools in your working as an undercover, how long did you have that. >> approximately six months. after that, i was assigned to another patrol division in south los angeles. southwest division near the campus of them university of southern california. and i worked there until 1998. >> over you duties generally is a patrol officer in that particular area of los angeles. >> the first two years, a patrol
was the service primarily prayed during that time, i believe on average in our division we avere anywhere from 100 - 200 homicides a year. it was a pretty dangerous area. >> you said you held that position for how any years. >> for patrol, typically i was there for two years and then i was recruited to work the gang unit at the same division. same geographic area pretty. >> described that work for the jury pretty spec gang intelligence, i was assigned a gang in the neighborhood and our assignment was to gather intelligence and make a rough and handling calls of service i was specific to that specific gang.
>> how long did you work that gang unit. a. >> three and half years. >> and where did you go after that. >> i was recruited to go and work at the fbi task force. the same bureau for a specific to that gang that i was assigned to an southwest division. >> was a long-term investigation. >> yes so we were doing investigative work is basically we handled all crimes other than murders and sexual assault and were committed by that specific gang. >> how would you do that pretty. >> i did that for approximately a year and a half. and then i was recruited and assigned to the training division for in-service tactics.
>> partly what year was that pretty. >> approximately 2000. >> what did you do for your tactics unit. >> for the in-service tactic unit, we developed 32 hour core for los angeles police department. it was a four-day course, where we went over firearms and basic patrol tactics and arrest control techniques. >> was your assignment after that. >> after that, i was promoted to sergeant. >> you spent some time in the use of force for your department. >> yes. the way los angeles police department use of force review is that often there is three
stages so initially use of force for the entire profile. not all use, the higher uses of force so you have important that can be one peer member and depending upon the officer-involved, police officer then you have another officer sergeant and so on and so forth. as wives appear member from 2003 - 2007 prayed i was a police officer as well as a sergeant where i sat on the board with 45 people and command staffing is appear and basically we review all the information that was gathered during the investigation we make recommendations to the chief of police. at that point the chief of police then gives that information and he makes a recommendation to the police commission.
the police commission has the final say. >> and what you are reviewing is conduct involving uses of force with other officers that right. >> yes. >> what was your next assignment after serving on the board. >> that was duty so i was called for like as i earlier, was promoted to sergeant. and 2006 and i was assigned to our division downtown los angeles. >> what was required to become a sergeant for the lapd. >> i've yet to take a written test when you pass that written test, you also have to go through an interview process and then you are right. also has to have a certain amount of college credits in order to be eligible to take the test.
>> you are eventually selected a sergeant pretty cute of the jury what your first duty was as a sergeant. >> yes my first duty was assigned to our central division which was downtown los angeles. in the skid row area. >> doing what. >> i was a patrol sergeant, a field sergeant. general duties is to supervising officers assigned to a specific watch normally anywhere from ten - 20 officers could be assigned to specific watch. maybe one or two supervisors there assigned that watch as well give general duties such as providing roll call training in early beginning of the watch as well as overall supervision. in making sure the officers are conducting themselves properly as well as if their use of force, you have to respond to the use of force.
>> did you take a different position after serving as a sergeant. >> i am still sergeant but within about six months, but decided to initiatives safer cities initiative which was focusing on the homeless problem and skidrow area resorted that the next year and a half. >> you described a couple of geographic areas of los angeles he served as a patrol officer and sergeant. her negative please just describe in general terms, those areas in terms of dangers of the crime rate there. >> my first assignment and south bureau, historically they have nice time in the city. central bureau in division
usually a second or third. >> all kind of crimes do typically respond to. >> primarily violent crimes, robberies and assault things of that nature. >> i would also like to describe the jury, the training she received the use of force tactics to help you do your job as a patrol officer and a patrol sergeant. >> i was unique in a sense because i was a instructor for six years. so i had a lot of background and use of force and tactics prior to making sergeant and prior to that, a patrol officer, you would get quarterly training as well as annual training that would keep its own up-to-date on any changes involved of the policies and procedures.
>> what is it mean to be a tactics instructor. >> for our department and for the state of california have to go through different types of training so i have been through our options, instructor training as well as de-escalation training. a minute trainer for de-escalation, options, i been through the fbi instructor course. handgun instructor as well. in a number of leadership courses as well. >> have you had an educational roll are teaching roll within your department read. >> yes, stated earlier, for six years i was a practice instructor. for in-service training for that course that i mentioned earlier pretty. >> in-service training for already serving officers, experienced officers.
yes pretty did you perform annual training. >> yes. >> would you provided training as to your department's use of force policies. yes in the state law. and have you reviewed generally, the use of force policies across the nation with the use of force policies in your department. >> yes. so my current position, i am able to then the oversight inspector general the entity within the los angeles police department independent of the department itself. mls one officer that works for that unit. there's 28 overall employees and during that time, during my time there, i was able to travel nationwide and go through a number of different police agencies to basically compare their use of force policies as
well as the training with los angeles police department. >> are your policies and los angeles police department fairly consistent with the policies and standards nationwide. >> yes. >> is a short of a nationwide reasonable event of a police officer generally accepted in your field. >> yes. >> getting back to your trainer for defensive tactics and instruction, approximate how any los angeles police officers did you provided training and that six year time. >> initial secure, approximately 3000 officers. >> can you explain to the jury the types of training you
provide. >> as i stated earlier, the main focus was de-escalation. we taught them basic put patrol traffics vehicle stops, as well as firearms manipulation. and ultimately we would do the four day courses, we would or the goal was for them to realize their de-escalation tactics where they would not have to use force. >> did you teach a specific tactic on the ground training or anything like that pretty. >> no, we were we taught all of the subject. >> you indicated in your current roll with the department, you do use of force reviews. >> no not in my current roll rated. >> in a prior roi should say. yes pretty so in terms of the reviews, number of use of force reviews that you have completed in your career, can you estimate
proximally how any of done pretty. >> about 2500 approximately. >> have you ever made it findings of use of force was excessive or objectively unreasonable. >> yes. sue met and such use of force was not acceptable pretty. >> yes. >> when you've done use of force reviews is that include use of deadly force. >> yes, certain circum- certain primarily in a row, after being patrol sergeant, was assigned and promoted and assigned to be a training coordinator for south bureau which is pretty much all of south los angeles. enough euro, but 1600 officers and at the time, for patrol divisions and one traffic division and so my job was to oversee the training for that
bureau. >> you member of any professional organizations. >> yes, i am a member of a few. >> could you name the place. >> employer organization, foundations which represents african-american officers on the police department, i'm a member of the i'm drawing blank am sorry. a number of them. i'm not going to say the acronym. but a number of other place organizations that involve tactical managers. >> i've been called upon by other law enforcement agencies to provide instructions and use of force. >> instructions, articulate no. i consulted with a number of
other agencies. >> consultation use of force reviews pretty yes printed but other agencies have you assisted. >> california, president and of assisted king county office of - and i've assisted that california's police department as well as the university of california irvine police department. >> you've indicated already that you been retained as an expert witness for the state in this matter is that right. >> yes. >> new conducted review and some of the various materials facilitated with the death of george floyd on behalf of the may 25 of 2020 is that correct pretty. >> yes. >> usurped charge a fee for your services. can you please tell the jury
with the feet yes in this matter. >> there's a fluffy of $10000 and for the trial, the fee is 2900 and $15. >> and that's included reviewing all of the different materials that you have provided is not right. >> could you please tell the jury in, what materials you have reviewed pretty. >> i reviewed all of the body worn videos and other videos provided to me for cell phone video and things of that nature. and reports in the manuals for the minneapolis police department as well as the training materials. >> if we may have a slight appear. slide.
degree and amount of force used by the defendant mr. derek chauvin on george floyd. >> yes. >> and i ask you to a sling to the jury a little bit about what process or methodology that you go through to render such a decision. >> there's a few steps, the main step is going through the objectives standards which is based off of the looking at the seriousness of the crime, looking at the person's actions and things of that nature. as well as looking at the specific agency policies and procedures as well. >> in addition to the seriousness of the crime under the standard, do you look at any other factors. >> yes predict i try to look at a number of factors, what was known to the officers at the time. then again, one of the biggest things i look at is what was the
person's actions at the time the officer was using force. >> based upon your review of these materials and in light of the grand factor, what is your opinion as to the degree of force used by the defendant on george floyd on the date in question pretty. >> my opinion was it was excessive. ... ... a restraint. >> yes. >> if i may show you exhibit 17, received into evidence.
can you describe what it is you see here? >> i see an officer is me on the neck of mr. ford. >> is this a form of force? >> yes. >> exhibit 17. >> i'm sorry, that was supposed to be published. >> that's all right. if you could we publish exhibit 17. specifically what we are talking about in terms of the force you are reviewing, is that right? >> yes. >> your opinion, it was excessive, that began around the time mr. floyd was on the ground? >> yes, sir. >> i'd like to focus your
attention to the connor factor, he indicated one of the factors you consider is the severity of the offense being investigated, is our right? >> yes. >> was the severity of the investigation here? >> if i remember correctly, it was mr. floyd was accused of having a counterfeit 20-dollar bill. >> how does that particular offense, the severity of the offense relate to appropriateness of use of force used against him? >> typically in a normal situation the don't have someone uses a counterfeit bill, you would not expect to use any type of force. >> when you look at this standard, the severity of the offense, is the label of the
offense, misdemeanor or felony, is that important? >> in some cases, yes. >> what you find more important than the label of the offense? >> course of action. >> would be there to describe the counterfeit $20 bill as a low level offense? >> yes. >> in the connor world, that would justify lesser force, is that right? >> yes. >> a second factor is whether the person would pose an immediate threat, is that correct? >> yes. >> can you describe this, it's right? >> something what an officer feels the person is going to assault them or someone else. >> identifying level of debt, is subjective, how is viewed? >> it could be subjective. >> how so? >> depending on the officer, their training and experience.
>> we talk about this, distinguish between a threat and a risk. is there a difference between threat and risk? >> yes. >> explained that difference. >> police officers go into a situation, there is a risk factor just based on policing. i describe it as if you're going into a movie, you don't know what's going on and you try to figure out information as you are going through, as far as a threat is concerned, threat would be once someone is combative toward another person. >> what kind of factors can present a risk? >> location, the call itself, call for service, while the actual crime was. >> what about the characteristics of the subject?
what can pose a potential risk? >> could you we phrase? >> for example, size. >> in certain is, size could. >> in terms of risk. >> yes. >> a large subject necessarily constitute threat? >> not necessarily. >> why is that? >> it's based on the person's actions, not just their size and stature. >> in conducting use of force review or looking at objective reasonable use of force, is it appropriate to use force against the individual simply because of their size? >> no. >> i'd like you to discuss the standard of resistance, whether the person is resisting or
attempting to invade law enforcement officers. were you able to make an assessment in this case as to whether or not mr. floyd was offering resistance trying to evade law enforcement officers? >> yes. >> what was your assessment? >> initially when mr. floyd was being placed in the back seat of the vehicle, he was resisting officers so at that time the officers trying to have him comply with their commands and get him to the back of the vehicle. however, once he was placed in prone position on the ground, he slowly stopped resistance and at that time the officers, x officers i should say, they should have slowed down or stopped their force as well. >> i'd like to backup --
>> i believe you indicated mr. floyd was offering resistance initially outside the vehicle. >> yes, outside and inside. >> however, there was a time mr. floyd was taken outside the vehicle and placed on the ground, correct? >> yes. >> you indicated at that time after he was placed on the ground the officers, what should they have done? >> de-escalate the situation. >> what did they do instead based on what you saw? >> they continued force from the time they first put him on the ground. >> i want to make sure when we are talking about the evaluation of use of force, you are evaluating the application of force from what perspective? >> first from the ground
perspective as well as minneapolis police department. >> the standard in view of a reasonable police officer on the scene. >> yes. >> we are talking about the actions specifically of the defendant, at what time are you going to be determining or considering the factors available to the defendant when he was applying force? >> i'm sorry, could you rephrase? >> we know there were some events that happened prior to derek chauvin, the defendant's arrival on the scene, correct? >> yes. >> for the purposes of your review of reasonableness of the defendant's actions, i what time you begin analysis? >> based on when he arrived and became involved. >> so based on your review of the materials, what were the
circumstances on the ground for the defendant when he arrived? >> when he arrived, after they removed him out of the vehicle and placed him on the ground, do you mean mr. floyd's actions? >> what did the defendant see when he first arrived on scene? >> he saw officer lane and king in the backseat of the vehicle. >> what did the defendant do after he initially arrived? >> he went to assist officers attempting to place mr. floyd in the backseat of the vehicle. >> did you serve the various officers at that moment, the defendant approaching the vehicle? >> yes. >> describe what you saw with the defendant approach the vehicle.
>> they were attempting to place mr. floyd in the back seat of the vehicle, mr. floyd was actively resisting moving around, getting out of the vehicle, clearly he didn't want to be back there in the officers were trying to initially place him in the backseat of, grabbing the seatbelt and ultimately the decision was made to remove him from the vehicle. >> at the time mr. floyd was removed from the vehicle, when he was taken out of the vehicle and brought to the ground, do you recall what happened? how did the officers remove him from the vehicle? >> they were pulling him from the driver side passenger door, the three sides and they were pulling on his legs and arms once they got him out of the
vehicle, someone placed him on his knees. >> no now going back to where he was placed or attempted to be placed in the back of the vehicle, do you recall what mr. floyd was saying when the officers were trying to get him into the back of the vehicle? >> he was saying he couldn't breathe, he was claustrophobic and he didn't like being back there. >> did you see him or hear him indicate he had anxiety and was afraid? >> yes. >> what do you recall to avoid telling the officers? >> he indicated that he was afraid, he had covid before and he couldn't breathe and he had anxiety and he was claustrophobic. >> based on those payments and the way mr. floyd was acting at
the time, do you believe when the officers tried to get him into the vehicle in and of itself was reasonable action? >> it could be perceived as reasonable. >> were there all other alternatives they could have done. >> yes. >> wasn't necessary for the officers to use force at that particular time. >> overruled. >> not necessarily, no. >> what else could he have done? >> verbalized with him, it appeared early on -- >> i said overruled. >> please continue. >> early on officer kueng gained a rapport with mr. floyd early
on so police practice would have been best to try to continue to verbalize with him because he gained rapport with him tried to get him to comply with commands by verbalization. >> but nonetheless, you believe in your opinion it was not unreasonable for the officers to attempt to place him into the back of the car? >> correct. >> i'd like to play segment for you what happens when they were getting him out of the car and initially placing him on the ground. at this time, i'd like to publish kueng body worn camera. i'd like you to back it to 2018 and 46 seconds.
[background noises] if you could play -- >> i can't breathe. i can't breathe. please, man. >> under arrest for forgery. >> please, man. >> thank you. >> on the ground. >> at that time they decided to bring mr. floyd out of the car, you can see on the video mr. floyd was initially brought to his knees, is that right? >> yes. >> what did you hear mr. floyd say? >> i believe he said thank you. >> if you could continue.
[background noises] [inaudible] >> if you could get him. >> i said please. i said please. >> stop moving. >> after he was initially on his knees and began to put him to the ground. >> yes. >> what position to the officers place is deployed when they brought him to the ground? >> prone position. >> what is the prone position? >> you lay a person on their stomach. >> you can see as your floyd has already been handcuffed? >> yes. >> he is is now prone on the
ground, handcuffed. >> yes. >> prior to him being in this position, did you see any aggressive action were interpreted as aggressive action on the part of mr. floyd? >> prior to prone position? >> prior to prone position. >> yes. >> what did you see? >> he kicked his leg. >> could you describe that kick and how it might be interpreted by reasonably police officer? >> the officers were still patrolling mr. floyd at this time and as they were trying to place him down in prone position, i believe one of the officers was trying to control his leg and he kicked their arms away in attempt to possibly break free from the officers grasp. >> aside from that one kick, did
you see anything else in your view of any of the material will body one cameras that would constitute active aggressive behavior by mr. floyd? >> no. >> that was approximately 2019 and about 35 seconds? >> approximately. >> when we evaluate the restraint. , this is about the time we are starting, right? right after he was placed on the ground, prone? >> yes. >> did you hear the defendant ask a question regarding restraints at that time? >> yes. >> what was he asked about? >> i believe he asked for the hubble. >> what is a hovel? >> the hovel is a restraint used to find a person's legs in order
>> received, your honor. >> i'm going to ask you if you recognize what's shown in exhibit 200. >> yes. >> does not appear to be the use of public restraint person? >> yes. >> offer exhibit 200 and publish. >> 200 is received. >> if you could publish that. all right. is this the hovel restraint you were referring to? >> yes, sir. >> one is the hovel restraint used? >> typically on someone actively aggressive toward police. >> the person you see in exhibit 200, the hovel has been applied,
what position is the individual in after the hovel has been applied? >> site recovery position. >> what is the site recovery position? >> when you place someone on either the left or right side to breathe better. >> what is the purpose -- and you said it's to assist in being able to breathe better, is that right? >> yes. >> are you familiar with the term positional is 60 a? what does that refer to? >> yes, refers to when a person is in the prone position in and they have a difficult time breathing and it may cause death. >> moved to exhibit 200. once the officers had mr. floyd on the ground in prone position and you can see he was handcuffed, i'd like to bring
exhibit 255, exhibit 255 approximately where we left off the video, is that right? >> yes. >> once that's been done, the officers here after they had an assessment make? >> yes. >> whether or not it would continue to use the hovel will begin to use the hovel. >> rephrase. >> what assessment you have to make it this time? >> based on a request for the hovel, you have to assess whether to continue to apply the hovel to mr. floyd. >> based on your review, did they? >> no, did they did not.
>> what does that suggest of the need to restrain mr. floyd? >> based on my review, i believe they felt he was starting to comply and his aggression was starting to receive. >> was not consistent with your own observations of what you saw mr. floyd do as the video continues? >> yes. >> one moment. [silence]
>> the trial in the death of george floyd is underway at the courthouse, former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin charged in the death of mr. floyd who died while being arrested by officers. if you missed live coverage of the trial, watch tonight beginning 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span2 or any time on c-span.org. ♪♪ >> c-span2, unfiltered view of government created by america's cable television company. ♪♪ they brought to you by these television companies to provide c-span2 to be yours as a public service. ♪♪ >> c-span.org/coronavirus or federal response to the coronavirus pandemic. if you missed live coverage, it's easy to find the latest
bidens administration response. c-span.org/coronavirus. >> ceo of moderna talked about the development of moderna's covered vaccine and distribution. pepperdine university. >> tell us about you and i have heard you say have an eye for outbreak. how in the world did you end up doing what you're doing now? >> good evening, everybody. i spent my life and had a chance to work the past 25 years i've