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tv   Day 7 of Trial for Derek Chauvin Accused in Death of George Floyd  CSPAN  April 6, 2021 9:50pm-10:57pm EDT

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now back to day number seven of derek chauvin's trial and the deaths of george floyd. in this portion, the jury heard additional testimony from minneapolis police lieutenant johnny mercil who was asked more questions about the use of force policy. just a reminder, you are still under oath. thank you, your honor. sir, when we left off, you are looking at exhibit 119, page 56 and we were starting to discuss your training regardingg handcuffing. can you explain how you train the police officers and handcuffing techniques and use of force? >> we teach several different
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positions and techniques as well as how to approach people when they are going to be handcuffed and then once you make contact with the person i would lease the procedures after. >> how do you properly placed the cuffs? >> one at a time and then once they are on and everything isis under control, things calm down to the point you have control of the subject and you want to make sure that you check the fit of the cuffs behind the back. they can tend to tighten up on a person so you want to be mindful of the handcuffs. >> does double locking prevented the tightening? >> it prevents them from coming undone. >> there are several different positions an officer can be in when they are handcuffed.
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>> the officer can be in many different positions relative to the subject. >> yes, sir. >> standing, prone. i would like you to describe what the techniques are that are used to prone the handcuffed subjects. >> we want to make sure that we isolate an arm and a lot of times we teach the officers to use their me to control their shoulder, generally put one on each side of the arm so one on the shoulder and one in the middle of the back and then isolate their arm for handcuff. a lot of times when you do the prone handcuffing you do that with a partner preferably and it makes it easier to control a person. >> if someone is handcuffed and you are using your knee on their back or shoulder to gain control, and do you leave it
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there for an extended period of time? >> it depends on the circumstances. you can leave it depending on the resistance you get. >> and what what signal to you as a trainer when you're supposed to release? >> when the behavior the escalates. a.a. >> relative to the handcuffing. >> that is correct. >> was that the appropriate time to release your leg? >> not necessarily. people handcuffed in the prone position can thrash around and they can present a little bit of a threat. they can kick, bite and some otherom things. fiso control and handcuffed always. >> if the subject is resisting, correct? >> that is correct. >> the possibility potential that a subject could resist like that, is that justification to
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leave your leg in place? >> no, sir. i wouldn't see the behavior -- >> once the subject is handcuffed and compliant and not resisting, the officer should remove their knee? >> that would be the appropriate time. >> and how long then as the person, the subject to be left in the prone the handcuffed position once they are compliant? >> it depends on the circumstances that you are involved in with this person and surrounding environment. >> so, assume the circumstances that i just stated, the subject is prone, handcuffed, and no longer resisting. >> as reasonably necessary if you have the time to do it, you tshould get them in a different position. >> what position is that? >> it depends on circumstances, but you could put them in the recovery position on their side, you could set them up, stand
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them up. >> why would you want to put them into a different position? >> there is the possibility and risk that s some people have difficulty breathing when the handcuffsre are behind their bak and they are on their stomach. >> and what is that known as? >> i'm sorry, rephrase. >> are you familiar with the phrase positional asphyxia? >> yes, sir. >> is that a danger you try to avoid by putting someone in the side recovery position? >> that d is one of the dangers, yes. >> [inaudible] >> sustained. rephrase. >> you testified you are familiar with the term positional asphyxia. why would you roll someone into the side recovery position after they've been handcuffed and are ancompliant? >> several reasons, but one would be to prevent potential situation where they might be subject to positional
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asphyxiation. >> and how soon should a person be placed after they become compliant and no longer resistant? >> when the scenehe is code for and you are able to do it. >> in terms of subject safety, how soon should the person be put into the side recovery position? >> i would say sooner the better. >> now, you testified that there circumstances in which the subject can offer further resistance even though they are handcuffed, is that right? >> yes, sir. >> i would like to direct your attention to page 58 of exhibit 219. >> this slide discusses the maximal restraint technique, is that right? >> that is correct. >> is there a particular device that is used to p accomplish the maximal restraint technique? >> yes, sir, it is the ripp
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hobble. if they are handcuffed behind their back, generally and that is the way we like to handcuffed people, and they continue to cause a threat to you or other people orto themselves, the officers used the maximal use tl restraint technique which is taking this strap with a clamp and you would wrap it around their legs and then connect it to the front of the body as possible, like a second restraint around their waist. what that does is it bends their legs so they are no longer a threat to kick at you. you put that about a 90-degree angle so they cannot extend them to kick you if they are a threat. >> are you aware the use of the maximal restraint technique is guided and governed by mpd
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policy? >> yes, sir. >> and that is 5-316? >> that is correct. >> is there more than one device that's authorized to perform the maximal restraint technique? >> i believe right now it is just the ripp hobble is the one that we use. >> and so, if an officer reasonably believes that the subject is thrashing, would you recommend that they use the maximal restraint technique to ensure their safety? >> yes, sir. >> and if they do so in accordance with mpd policy 5-316 in your training, what is the officer needing to do after the subject has been placed in the mrt and is prone? >> placed them in the recovery position. >> how soon? >> as soon as possible.
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>> why? >> when you further restrict their ability to move, it can restrict t their ability to breathe. .. >> the environment can change? >> yes sir. schleicher: are you familiar with minneapolis the critical thinking model. >> yes or. schleicher: that is a
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graphic, rephrase. >> is a critical thinking model of graphical representation a different concept? >> i don't understand the question. >> are you familiar with the term reassessment. >> absolutely. schleicher: describe that to the jury said that critical decision-making model is a template for officers to look at and reevaluation is when you look and you are constantly looking for factors to change seehe you change your behavior. schleicher: is reassessment something you have been teaching before the advent of this model? >> yes. that is with use of force. schleicher: so there can be a
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point in time a particular type of force is reasonable but as time passes circumstances can change? >> yes or. schleicher: then it is no longer reasonable. >> correct. schleicher: then what is the officer to do? >> they are to change their force. schleicher: i have nothing further. >>. nelson: if i can have just a moment, your honor.
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good morning. thank you for being with us today. i have a fewew follow-up questions regarding the training the minneapolis police department provides. you testifies one of your specialties that you talked about how you develop the ground defense program. >> i was one of the people, yes. nelson: describe generally what is the ground defense program. >> using techniques other than a strike to control the individual that's a broad term. nelson: essentially that is a program introduced from ten or 15 years ago? >> about ten years ago. nelson: using like jujitsu are
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different moves or her body control methods versus punching or striking an individual? >> that's correct. >> that was a programming and you help to develop and you continue to train throughout the minneapolis police department during your time in the training division. >> that's correct it's fair to say that when you train a police officer you train them in a particular move that will help improve their ability to regain compliance of the subject. >> that is the goal. nelson: but there is noo strict application of every single rule. agreed? >> that is correct. >> objection. [inaudible] >> sustained. answer stricken. rephrase compound question. nelson: there is no specific
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technique? >> now. nelson: officers are trained to be fluid. >> yes. nelson: sometimes officers have to do things that are unattractive to other people. >> correct. nelson: in terms of the use of force. >>es yes sir. nelson: you would agree being a police officer is a relatively dangerous job? >> yes sir. nelson: you in the course of your career have hadig use for. >> yes sir. nelson: you been harassed by many people. >> yes sir. nelson: sometimes people are not particularly happy about being arrested. >> very rarely. nelson: sometimes they fight with you.om > yes. nelson: sometimes they argue. >> yes sir. nelson: make excuses. >> yes sir. nelson: ultimately a police officer has to determine, is this person pretending were trying to give an excuse not to be arrested or are they
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experiencing another crisis? >> yes. ultimately in terms of an arrest that's what an officer has to ascertain. when you have arrested people you have people plan with you not to arrest them? >> yes. nelson: saying they are having a medical emergency? >> yes sir. nelson: have you had people say i can't breathe. >> yes sir. nelson: with their circumstances during the course of your career as a patrol officer were you did not believe that that person was having a medical emergency? >> yes or. nelson: that is all part of the analysis of use of force? >> yes. nelson: if you tell someone
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i'm under arrest. one way a person can resist arrest is through the use of their words. agreed? >> yes sir. nelson: that is passive resistance. >> depending on the types of wording used. nelson: words could be passive or active resistance. >> i would say yes. nelson: the difference between i am having a heart attack versus screw you. you will not take me. >> yes second?
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>> yes, sir. nelson: that's what you mean the difference of the word. >> correct. nelson: or the suspectly is threatening you in your arrest. >> that's correct. nelson: the whole concept of the ground defense program as testified was to use body weight and control to gain compliance of a subject. >> yes sir. nelson: would youfu agree any use of force situation the circumstances can change from minuteme to minute an officer if the use of force, you don't train officers specifically to only focus on the individual that they're taking into custody, do you? >> no. >> do you train them on officers to consider it to take into consideration other factors? >> yes, sir. >> such as? their partners and safety? >> that's correct.
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>> such as a crowd? >> correct. >> such as the difference between a crowd, right? >> right. >> are they happy crowd or are they in angry crowd. >> yes, sir. >> in terms of comp we talked about the proportionality of the use of force and kind down sliding force up and down that model, do you recall that? >> yes, sir. >> when officer uses force today, do trained officers take into or second to second. nelson: someone who is w compliant could become noncompliant or become violent was an officer. >> correct. nelson: somebody violent one second becomes compliant and then could become violent again. >> yes sir. nelson: you have experienced that. >> yes. nelson: you don't train officers only to focus on those they take into custody. >> now. nelson: but to take in other factors such as their partner. >> correct or a crowd. >> correct were just fighting with the suspect
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and that person becomes compliant, the set bec today take into consideration with that suspect in the immediate preceding event? >> yes. nelson: if you are fighting with the suspect and they become compliant, is that a consideration of a continued use of force? >> yes sir. nelson: is someone has a large size difference you train officers to take that into consideration. >> yes sir. nelson: have some person fought with more than one officer at a time do you train officers to take that into consideration with continuing use of force. >> yes. nelson: one person versus three people is what they would consider with continued use of force. >> yes. nelson: do you train officers relevant to the use of force for people who are under the influence of controlled substances? >> it is a consideration.
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yes. nelson: have you ever had to use force against somebody under the influence of a controlled substance? >> yes sir. nelson: you train officers certain controlled substances oid defense program. the ground control -- excuse me, the ground defense program really uses a lot of joint manipulations, correct? >> yes, sir. >> pressure points? >> not so much pressure point with crowd control. >> bodyweight, pens? >> yes, sir. >> so using the officers a person could exhibit more strength than otherwise? >> yes sir. nelson: ground defense program uses pressure points, joint manipulation. >> not pressure points background control. nelson: bodytrtr weight. were yu
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aware that? >> i was aware that. >> have you had an opportunity to review your statement to the fbi? >> no. >> someone ask you just some general questions and if i need to refresh your recollection i will do so, okay? >> thank you. >> so in terms of minneapolis police department policy the difference between a choke hold and the neck restraint, correct? >> that that is correct. >> a chocolate is considered a lethal or deadly use of force, correct? >> correct. >> at a chokehold is defined by minneapolis policy a specifically blocking the trachea or the airway of the suspect from the front side, correct? >> correct. >> so essentially what you would kind of think of is almost strangulation, putting her hands about someone's neck and squeezing the front of the neck, correct? >> yes, sir. >> in this particular case have
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had an opportunity to review the body-worn cameras, the bystander surveillance or the bystander cameras? >> i have seen both, search. >> at any point did you see off-the-shelf and use chokehold in this case -- officer chauvin? >> no, sir. >> in terms of neck restraint you said you testified that you have been involved in the martial arts since college? >> yes, sir. >> and i believe if i'm not mistaken that you also trained mma fighting? >> no, , sir, i get. >> have you ever? >> no, sir. >> but in the course of your training both in martial arts as well as like brazilian jujitsu and your trained to use force instruct instructive experience neck restraints, quick? >> yes, sir. >> and you thought individual officers i believe you say hundreds of times and hundreds of officers on how to use a neck
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restraint, correct? >> yes, sir. >> and a neck restraint as you have described it is, requires both sides of the neck to be compressed in order to render a person unconscious, correct? >> that is what we teach, yes. >> how much pressure has to be applied to both sides of the neck in order to render a person unconscious, based on your training? >> it depends. >> on what factor? >> size of the person, your skill, whether they are on narcotics or not, whether they're having an adrenaline rush heart rate, general physical health. a lot of factors involved. >> typically do you have to apply a lot of pressure to let's say a healthy individual for a long period of time in order to render some of unconscious? >> i would say no. >> do you recall what is the percentage of pressure that you
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would generally expect to have to apply? >> i don't know if i can -- >> objection. >> overbilled. >> question again, sir. >> what amount of pressure do you have to apply typically in order to render somewhat unconscious. >> i don't know if i can answer that. it varies her individual. >> so you said factors such as controlled substance use playing to a, correct? >> yes, sir. >> and if the subject is on control subjects on a controlled substance doesn't speed up the process or slow it down of rendering some of unconscious? >> i think my experiences are that he would speed it up. >> and to someone has said another factor is if someone has an adrenaline surge, right? >> yes, sir. >> anderson has an adrenaline surge coursing through their body, does the use of a neck restraint speed up or is that
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adrenaline speed up or slow down the unconsciousness of speedy objection your honor. [inaudible] >> moore foundation. >> your honor, i can refresh his recollection with his statement is -- >> your honor, , can we have a sidebar? >> no. proceed. >> would it refresh your recollection to review your statement relevant to adrenaline and the impact of how it speeds up or slows down and neck restraint? >> i don't believe i need to see that. i know the answer. >> what is the answer? >> the edges higher your blood rate, respiration and heart rate is, generally the faster neck restraint affects somebody. >> and how long base on your training and experience does it typically take to render a person unconscious using a neck restraint? >> my experience, under ten seconds. >> under ten seconds? >> yes, sir.
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>> now with a neck restraint is applied, nelson: when a neck restraint is applied, does the minneapolis policeca department specifically trained people to be cautious when reviving or attempting to revive a suspect? >> i'm not sure i understand the question. nelson: after a person is rendered unconscious with a neck restraint, is it possible for them to continue to fight come back to consciousness? >> it is possible. nelson: have you experience i personally? >> i have not from a neck restraint. nelson: you are where the mpd trains people that is a possibility. >>, yes specifically, there
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are circumstances, are there not, where nelson: in fact sometimes they can be just as aggressive or more aggressive after coming to consciousness. >> that is possible. nelson: with a neck restraint specifically circumstances that would affect and officers decision on whether to hold that p an officer can hold a person in neck restraint after rendering someone unconscious. >> hold of somebody? yes. nelson: for a period of time. >> yes. you can have the arms around the neck for a period of time. nelson: they would decide those circumstances may be waiting foror other officers to arrive. >> yes sir. >> generally can you describe what the human factors the force are?
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>> yes, sir. it nelson: waiting for ems to arrive. >> i would not go that far. now. nelson: you train on the human factors of force. >> yes. slson: describe what those are. >> it is a startle response or scared or adrenaline rush. and it affects your cognitive, physical abilities when you encounter stressed i like that. nelson: it's fair to say if the officer is in a use of force incident, they may experience a rush of adrenaline as well? >> yes sir. nelson: you have experience that yourself.er >> yes. nelson: after situation has oicome down, the offer on - - excuse me the officer can experience the adrenaline rush. >> that can continue.
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nelson: the adrenaline officers are trained on this. >> yes. nelson: part of the standard training for both recruit officers and the academy as well as veteran officers. >> correct. nelson: how often are thece human factors of force. >> once a year we discussed human factors of force. nelson: you also train officers to be very much aware of their surroundings at all times. >> yes sir. nelson: you asked a series of questions continuing to hold someone in a prone position. you said youou could hold them there until the scene is code dfour. nelson: so mpd would train officers under certain circumstances to hold a person in a prone position and tell the scene is safe. >> sometimes it is appropriate.
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with the reaction of bystanders. >> it could include where we are physically located in a geographical area. >> yes. nelson: what about hazards to the officer a suspect. >> a a busy street versus being> in a park or yard or something. >> yes. nelson: you describe the policy in terms of rendering medical aid as best you can. >> yes. nelson: officer is required to do that. >> there are certain circumstances correct me if i'm wrong, an officer has to consider it safe for the officer to do so. >> the training they receive
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requires it to render aid. >> generally yes. >> one of the considerations an officer has to make determining to render medical aid is whether or not the suspect is cuffed or uncut's been that is a factor. nelson: if they are fighting and handcuffed you have to decide is it worth the risk? >> yes sir. nelson: once you and handcuffed the suspect, they could become resistant again. >> correct. nelson: is that a risk you are willing to take. you have to decide. >> yes sir. nelson: also the recovery position and that could be
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rolling someone on their side, setting up our standing up. >> yes. nelson: again, there would be circumstances, you can envision circumstances you would not hurt a person into a recovery position. correct? >> yes sir. nelson: again, all of those factors we talked about with partner safety, personal safety, safety of the subject, safety of the crowd goes to that critical decision-making model process. >> yes sir.
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nelson: in terms of use of body weight to hold a suspect , you train officers to use their knee across the back to the shoulder for the base of the neck for a subject. >> yes. >> you are specifically trained by the minneapolis police department whether handcuffing purposes or control ofof the subject. >> yes sir. nelson: if a person is handcuffed they are specifically trained to put a knee across the shoulder blade to the trapezius.
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>> the trapezoid. [laughter] nelson: that is routinely trained in the academy as well as in-service. >> situationally, yes.ms nelson: simply because a person is handcuffed, there would be other circumstances you would use that body weight, the prone control technique to maintain control of a subject. correct? >> yes. nelson:
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[silence] published exhibit 17. you are asked a series of questions whether this appears to be a trained minneapolis necklace trained. >> yes i was asked that. nelson: you said no. >> correct. nelson: but you hedge and said maybe another training. >> perhaps. nelson: what would that training be? >> to moderate control but i will add we tell officers to stay away from the neck when possible if you use body week on - - body weight put it on their shoulder.
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nelson. nelson: i would show this to the witness. can you see that? >> not yet. nelson: in the bottom corner do you see a photograph of an individual demonstrating how to handcuff a person? the knee is across the of the individual. >> it is foundation from the
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toes to the knees is across the back of the neck. nelson: that's only talk about prone handcuffing that demonstrates the placement of the knee as it applies to prone handcuffing. if circumstances dictated then he has to hold that same position. >> we caution officers to be mindful of the neck area and go for the shoulder. nelson: take this down.
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i will show you what is introduced as exhibit 56. can you see that? the paramount on - - the paramedic is checking the carotid. mr. floyd. in yourte experience would you be able to touch the carotid artery if then he was placed on the carotid artery? >> no sir. nelson: i'm showing you marked for identification purposes
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exhibit 1045. generally take a look at that. in terms of do you recognize this appears to be a still photograph of the body warrena camera of one of the officers. >> yes. nelson: a timestamp may 25, 2020 at 2023, 32. >> yes. nelson: do you see two officers in this area here holding mr. floyd? >> yes sir. nelson: does that appear to be the placement of one officers knee? >>es yes sir.
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nelson: does that appear to be across the shoulder blade to the base of the neck? >> - - and does a cannot tell you where the knee is. nelson: i offer 1045. >> permission to publish. nelson: what we are seeing is a 23, 32 seconds. obviously this is taken from one of the body cameras. you can see the leg placement of the officer. and based on your observation it appears the russian comes to the top of the shoulder, across the shouldern
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blade. >> yes sir. nelson: and at an angle pointed toward the squad car. correct. >> yes sir. nelson: we can d take this down. nelson: showing you marked for identification purposes, 1046.
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does that appear to be a similar angle? >> yes sir. nelson: that is officer lane body warren camera. nelson: can you see the placement of the leg of one of the officers at the shoulder blade of mr. floyd?e you can see in this area here coming across thehe shoulder blade. correct. >> yes sir. nelson: the timestamp 1026, 40 seconds. >> yes sir. nelson: does any placement appear to be similar to the placement in the previous
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exhibit? >> i would exhibit one - - offer exhibit 1046. >>. >> received. >> permission to publish. >> if you put in this general area here you can see the placement of the knee. correct. >> yes. nelson: and the shin coming over the top of the shoulder blade angle toward the squad car. >> correct. nelson: take that down, your
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honor. nelson: marked for identification purposes 1047 is that a still frame image taken from a body warren camera from a many off on - - mpd. >> yes sir. 827, 49. it appears the officer has now stood up. >> it is a different angle. >> lower to higher. nelson: the cameras at a higher angle looking down. can you see in this photograph what appears to be the knee
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and shin placement of the officer? >> yes sir. nelson:: does it appear the knee is in the center between mr. floyd shoulder blades? >> it does, yes. nelson: i offer 1047. permission to publish. you can see the placement of mr. chauvin knee in between the shoulder blades. >> yes and it happens to be right here at that moment when the carotid artery is held by the emt. >> yes sir. nelson: one last photograph. does this appear to be a photograph or a still frame
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image of a minneapolis police body camera? >> yes sir. nelson: 1028, 29 excuse me 2028, 29. >> yes. nelson: 828, 29. do you see the placement of officer chauvin knee? >> yes sir. nelson: can you see mr. floyd had? >> yes. nelson: i offer 1048. permission to publish. nelson: it is hard to see here. you can see him in this area and officer chauvin in between the shoulder blades of mr. floyd. >> esther on - - yes sir.
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nelson: does this appear to be a neck restraint. >> no. nelson: is is a proud hold and officer may apply with his knee? >> yes. nelson. nelson: you talked about holding a person in the prone position after they have stopped resisting. do you recall talking about that? >> yes sir. are there circumstances in your career you had to use your body weight to hold a suspect down for longer period of time than two or three
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seconds? >> yes sir. nelson: did you have to use your body weight to hold a suspect down for ten minutes? >> i'm not sure if i have held somebody down for ten minutes. nelson: is it possible? >> it's possible. nelson: there are circumstances and officer has to take into consideration continuing to use their body weight regardless if a person is resisting or not resisting. >> rephrase that. nelson:me sometimes an officer calls for ems. sometimes an officer may hold a person using bodyweight to restrain them awaiting the arrival of ems. >> yes sir. nelson: you have done itheem yourself. >> i have. nelson: is it fair to say you
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have to train officers to use their body weight to continue holding them until ems arrived. >> as long as needed to control them, yes. nelson. nelson: you agree where force has been used a crowd congregates voicing displeasure that can be chaotic for an officer. what you train minneapolis police officers to do relevant to use of force is to consider the totality of the circumstances. >> agreed and that is from their perspective. >> not hindsight being 2020.
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>> correct with the minneapolis police department. >>. >> and incorporated into the least one - - mpd policy use of force. >> correct. nelson: situations are rapidly evolving. >> just because an incident is ten or 20 minutes long, that doesn't mean it cannot instantaneously change. >> that's correct. nelson: what is not a threat one second could be the next. >> correct. nelson: have you ever been trained or trained others that if a person can talk, they can breathe?
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>> yes. nelson: in terms of the continuation of use of force not the continuation but the graphic we looked at in exhibit 110. publish exhibit 110, your honor. the defense control and ecresponse training act go simply because a person is not actively resisting, right? that doesn't mean you can't use some degree of force. correct? >> that's correct. nelson: if a person is passively resisting you can still use passive force. that is this area here.
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>> correct. nelson: that includes the use of joint manipulation, pressure points. >> correct. nelson: take that down your honor.ed you were asked a series of questions about the strike chart and the red and yellow and green zones. that is designed specifically for punches and batons strikes that nature. >> yes. nelson: in terms of the maximal restraint technique? you were describing the use of the maximal street on - -
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strength technique? >> yes. nelson: sometimes they are to escalate the use of force in certain circumstances. >> yes. nelson: and de-escalate. >> yes sir. nelson: if the officer decides use maximum restraint and then against it for a medical situation or a lack of resistance, would that be a de-escalation of use of force? >> yes. nelson: is it more or less difficult to render medical aid to someone in maximum restraint technique? >> probably a little more difficult.
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nelson: with the use of force and then to use bodyweight. >> that could be higher escalation of force. someone in the position as a de-escalating technique. >> yes sir. nelson: in terms with the use of force and deciding how much force should be used. >> that is a consideration. nelson: as well as the presence of other officers.
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>> yes sir. nelson: use of force in any circumstance depending on the situation. >> yes sir. nelson: when using force they have to employ the critical decision-making model. >> they should at all times. nelson: including visa for. >> yes and that is not focused exclusively on the subject of the force being used. >> it is a situational awareness tool. nelson: situational awareness is beyond just the subject. i have no further questions.
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>> so to follow up on questions with theyo use of force being reasonable in the eyes of the officer spirit the officer involved in the moment yes.s. that's always subject to review.af and that is always after-the-fact. >> correct. >> and that force must be reasonable and taken from the perspective of the officer atrs
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the time. >> correct. >> but the officer doesn't have that unfettered discretion to use whatever force they wish. >> now they do not publish exhibit 110 again. which is the full guide continuum. looking over here on the left-hand side we see to look at thebe subject behavior. >> yes sir. schleicher: the amount of force to be proportionate to the subjects behavior, correct? >> generally speaking, yes. schleicher: if for example a group of bystanders were doing something the officer might find annoying such as
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videotaping, that act would not be subject control behavior? >> no sir. >> that word not justified the use of force or escalation of force by the officer. >> that alone? know. schleicher: that is not subject control behavior. >> correct. schleicher: publish exhibit 184. received into evidence. what you see here is a group of bystanders. >> yes sir. schleicher: you can see the bystanders have something in their hands. >> yes sir. schleicher: they appear to be smart phones. >> yes sir. schleicher: that extra fact word not justify an increased use of force. >> just the camera?
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know one - - no sir. schleicher: take down exhibit 184. the acceptable use of the any across the subjects back is a transitory position is that right? >> yes. schleicher: meant to be used to gain control of the subject while being handcuffed. >> correct. schleicher: once the subject is under control and no longer resistant it is inappropriate to hold them in a position where you are draping your knee across their back or neck. >> i would say it is time to de-escalate force.
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schleicher: get off of them. >> yes sir. schleicher: you talk about the prone position in and of itself canth lead to positional asphyxia. >> yes sir. schleicher: is that risk increased by the addition ofinin bodyweight? >> yes sir. schleicher: if the officer was placing bodyweight with the neon the neck or the back i'm sorry the neck and the back. that would transfer the officer's body weight onto the person. >> yes sir. schleicher: that would increase decrease the ability to breathe. >> potentially, yes. schleicher.
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schleicher: would that be appropriate to hold someone inia position words more difficult to breathe for an extended period of times after the subject has stopped offering resistance? >> no sir. schleicher: or has lost their pulse? >> no sir. schleicher: you testified an individual can be unconscious one moment then suddenly become conscious and violent. >> potentially. schleicher: have you ever had a circumstance where an individual has lost their pulse then suddenly come back and the more violent. >> not that i am aware of sir. schleicher: nothing further.
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>> in terms of use of force in the continuation, exhibit 184. you were asked to publish 184. nelson: looking at this individual right here, does it appear the man in blue is holding back the man in black. [inaudible] nelson: in terms of the continuation of use of force, when talking about involvement of onlookers, the words they use matter.
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>> but if they say i would slap the pussy out of you or you are a pussy or you are a chump with that escalate police officer? he>> yes. >> if they say get off of him you are killing him sure they also take that into account of the actions need to be we assessed? >> potentially. >> nothing further. >> you are excused. we'll take a recess we cannot reconvene until 1:30 p.m. thank you
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