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tv   Day 7 of Trial for Derek Chauvin Accused in Death of George Floyd  CSPAN  April 6, 2021 10:56pm-11:57pm EDT

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>> you may call your next witness. >> the state calls nicole mckenzie.
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[swearing in witness] >> we prefer you take your mask off. before we begin hand me the stylus. began by giving your full name and spelling each of your names. >> nicole mckenzie.
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>> good afternoon how are you employed. >> the minneapolis police department. schleicher: how long have you been employed? >> six years. schleicher: your current role? became a place officer. >> you have a specific duty assignment? >> medical support coordinator for the department. schleicher: before we talk about that role share about yourself with the jury. how long have you been a police officer in law enforcement? >> about six years. schleicher: did you have a clear prior to law enforcement. >> i worked in human resources. schleicher: what is your educational background? book associates degree in human resources, bachelors in business andde emt. i also have my law enforcement certificate and emr instructor.
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schleicher: you worked in human resources as your original plan. >> correct. schleicher: how long he wanted to be a police officer? >> is something i always wanted to do. i talk myself out d of it but found my way back. schleicher: can you please tell the jury how you enter law enforcement? through the academy? >> yes. i came in as a cadet which mean the department sponsors the educational component to make you eligible for the exam in the state of minnesota. . . . .
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for one day. but also he's attended my trainings that i've conducted. >> and would you recognize him if you sawze him? to do you see him today? >> yes, sir. >> can you describe what he's wearing. >> in the light blue suit. >> may the record reflect the witness identified the defendant.an >> it will. >> he vindicated you are the medical support coordinator, is that right? >> yes sir. >> you can you describe before the jury what that role entails? >> there are several different components to it primarily it is going to be the first aid education that were received. i do the training for the academy, both as well as the
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in-service which is more like the continuing for officers and i'm also administer of the narcan program that we have. a. >> what is the narcan program? >> the narcan program is the training and administration of pharmaceuticals to use to temporarily reduce opioid overdoses. >> does narcan represent something officers have available to them? and do you provide specific training regarding the use of narcan? >> i do. >> and also, you provide medical training both at the academy and in service, is that right? >> correct. >> are you familiar with the requirements from the department and post requirements for how often officers are supposed to train in medical procedures? >> yeah, with the medical board, when you're able to apply for the examination, you do have to have your emr certification and that is emergency
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medical responder. beyond that, they don't require anything terribly specific, but within the police department we do continuing education year on on medical related topics. >> you said at the post board doesn't require anything specific. can you explain that? >> with other educational requirements as far as continuing education, you must be a minimum number of hours. there are certain topics that they require you to complete. other ones, with the minneapolis police department we go above and beyond what the board requires. so that's where we add extra medical training. >> and you do that every year? >> we do. >> are police officers required to have a specific cpr card? >> not a card. no, you're not required to have that beyond your initial post certification. >> when you're initially certified you get one?
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>> that is a part of the emr certification that is required to be eligible to take the post exam. >> and some officers will continue to obtain the cpr card is that correct? >> correct. >> and it's required to obtain that card? >> it is a four hour class with a written test and skills examination test. >> what does it cover? >> it includes adult cpr, infant cpr as well as choking. >> at this time i would like to display to the witness, not to the jury, exhibit 277 for a notification. if you take a look at what's been marked for edification as exhibit 2 277, does that appearo be a an american heart association card? >> yes. >> does that complete the four hour course you mentioned? while the dissent required, some
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officers continue them and those cards are maintained in the record of the police department. >> if they have taken a full course through the minneapolis police department, we would be a record holder. >> and if we could take a look at exhibit 278. that also appearso to be a cpr card with a different year. >> correct. >> exhibits 277 and 278. >> 277 and 278 are received. >> if we could publish exhibit 277. and highlight. does this appear to be a cpr card issued to chauvin, march 3, march 320-12-2014? >> correct. and if we could explain exhibit
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278. again, a cpr card issued from january, 2014 to january, 2016 is that right? >> that is correct. >> and finally, when you provide training, medical training to law enforcement officers, does that training get reported into the workforce system to be able to report to the post board? >> it does. >> now, when did you start personally delivering thisy training? >> i've been a red instructor since 2017 and the full-time position january of 2020. >> and how many times do you think you've provided this training tog law enforcement
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officers? >> cpr specifically? >> yes. >> i would say upwards of 20 to 30 sessions. >> do you use a powerpoint to do your medical presentation every year? >> we do. >> if i couldo showse you exhibt 111 forld the witness. exhibit 111, do you recognize appears to be the first part of the slide? >> yes. >> and if we could turn the second page 1 of 111, it says md cpr, is that right? >> correct. approximately how many times? >> this was in-service 2019 and my best estimation this was probably all over the course of maybe 12 sessions or so, 12 to
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15 and i was responsible to a third of them. >> did the defendant attend any of your sessions? >> i'm not sure. >> but you are providing the blog training everyone consistently took back in 2019? >> correct. theoretically, some of the department would have come through at some point. >> you can take that down. i'm going to offer exhibit 111. >> any objection? 111 is received. in general terms, you provided the jury an overview of the specific medical training that you provided to law enforcement officers on an annual basis. >> for in-service specifically? >> for in-service, yes. >> we do offer a wide variety depending on how many training sessions are going to be available to us in the year. but at a minimum, every year we are touching on cpr and in
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alternate years we are also going over a refreshing class on narcan and that is the minimum standard. if we have more training spots available, we can add more to those. >> are you aware whether the minneapolis police department hasce a specific policy regardig rendering of emergency aid? >> we do. >> can you please provide the jury the high level overview of what the policy requires? >> certainly.ui high-level summary of the first-aid policy is going to be requesting ems resources to anybody that needs it or anybody that requests it. andde also, rendering first aid consistent with your training that you received. >> and does the policy allows allow youto do onene or the oth? can you just call for the ambulance and not do the emergency medical procedures? >> it depends on the situation specifically. if there was really no need for
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immediate first-aid, may be like a small cut or abrasion, it would be then appropriate to wait for the ems to arrive, but if it is a critical situation, you would have to do both. >> i would like you now to kind of walk us through some of the specific training that you provide. we will use exhibit 111. if you can publish exhibit 111 starting on page six. let's go back to page one. explain page one of this. >> okay, so this is an image taken from the classic movie "dumb and dumber." and this is a video clip that we show at the beginning of training. it's more or less kind of a lighthearted way to get people a little bit more engaged in the
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class. >> [inaudible] >> no, absolutely not. >> i would like to cover the substantive portions. go to page six and review the portion of the slide that shows the agenda. can you please describe to the jury each of these different portions of the training that you provide? >> certainly. so, this block of training was primarily focused on cpr. but we did throw in a couple of extra pieces of information because we had the time available to us. so, we just kind of briefly retouched on other things we had already taught, which was tactical combat casualty care, that is basically rendering aid for more traumatic injuries if you will. then we p also provided an updae on our narcan program as far as usage and many things we've learned sinceng we finished. and the remainder of the time was focused on the whole cpr course. >> if you could go to page 21 of
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exhibit 111. for the jury, could you please describe using the slide, just kind of walk us through what training you provide to the police department as it pertains to, cpr? >> when we are called to a scene where there is some kind of medical situation going on. maybe it's man illness or whatever it happens to be, we have a mnemonic that we would walk through to make sure that we are covering all of the basics. when you are encountering somebody that's the hearing to be unconscious, we start with an acronym that is called avpu to determine the level of responsiveness and then we work through the abc, airway breathing and circulation. >> i'd like you to then please go to the next page, 22. could you please walk the jury
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assessment tool. >> certainly. so, when you are counting somebody's level of responsiveness, you kind of walk through this as your model to seeel where they land. so, if somebody is alert, that means as soon as possible walk into the room and they spontaneously look at me i determine okay that person's alert. i don't really need to go any further. verbal would be maybe just kind of yelling towards somebody, trying to get their attention, something like that to see if they respond to any verbal stimuli. and if you don't get a response there, then move on to the p which is pain. and that's going to be something like, for instance, if you press against a fingernail, looking for any a kind of response that somebody normal would pull away from. we are not certainly talking about anything that would cause any pain, but a little stimulus to see if they pull away from you or something p like that.
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and if t they don't respond, thn you determined that person is unresponsive. >> i would like to talk about, have you talked about the pain stimuli briefly. it sounds like in the assessment tool, with the person is doing, the trainee is doing is going to be applying a painful stimulus to see if the person reacts? >> that's correct. >> is it possible to determine a level of responsiveness without intentionally, or should i say, without inflicting pain for the purpose of checking stimuli? so, f for example, just observig whether the person is continuing to react to a painful stimulus? >> can you rephrase that? >> sure. if someone -- you came upon an individual that was injured, for example,ng and crying out or manifesting some sort of pain as a result of the injury, but at some point may stop being verbal and stop responding to that pain, could that potentially be
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a sign of nonresponsiveness? >> correct, yes. >> once you determine an individual is unresponsive, then what do you do? >> then you walk through the next set of acronyms which is going toe be your abcs. >> if we could turn to page 21, please. and that is airway, breathing, circulation? >> that's correct. if you could go to page 23. >> can you please describe for the jury with the trained officers do based on this slide within exhibit 111? >> certainly. after you determine the level of responsiveness if they are responsive, you are going to first address their airway and that means putting them in the most ideal situation to be in line as much as possible.
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>> what is the next step? >> tilting up the head slightly. the head tilt to open up their airway. and then the next step beyond that, moving into checking for breathing. and if you don't see the chest rise, it's a matter of putting your hand on the center of the chest and see if there is any kind of air moving up and down. >> and what is the next step? >> circulation. that's going to be checking for a pulse or underneath the job. >> are there other places that officers are trained that they can check for a pulse? >> absolutely. you can use your wrist. there's multiple points on your body that you can check them, but this is by far the most important. >> and what our officers trained to do if they are unable to find a pulse?y >> if you don't have a pulse, you would immediately start cpr.
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>> now, i want to go back to the concept of checking for breathing. you indicated that you can look for the chest rising and falling, is that right? >> yes. >> do you train officers as part of your training, do you train officers if a person can talk it means that they can breathe? >> no, sir. >> it would be incomplete to say because there is a possibility somebody could be in a respiratory distrust and still be able to verbalize it just because they are speaking doesn't mean that they are speaking adequately. >> and getting back to circulation. you indicated if an officer cannot findt a pulse, they are o start cpr, is that correct? >> yes. >> describe what is done to start cpr. >> to start cpr, if you haven't already contacted ems to get them in route how you would do that immediately. then it is a matter of
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interlocking your fingers and go to the center of the chest and then you push down the third of the death at the rate of about 100 beats per minute. >> is this something again getting back to the mpd policy that the officer is trained and required to do while they are waiting for the ambulance? >> yes. and when is the officers supposed to stop cpr? >> when you've been relieved with somebody with a higher level of training or if there were other signs of death or if you are absolutely just were abt physically exhausted from doing cpr. >> if you could display page 27 of the exhibit. officers are specifically trained on this, is that right? >> correct. >> of the subject becomes responsive or wakes up?
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>> right. >> or if someone else takes over or as you stated, it isn't safe and you can physically do it anymore. >> correct. >> iss this done with the training that you provide every year to each and every law enforcement officer that is recorded to having taken this training during the service? >> yes. >> i have nothing further. thank you, your honor.
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>> [inaudible]
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>> [inaudible] sorry about that. thank you, your honor sorry
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about that, ma'am. i think i'm ready now. thank you for joining us today. just a few follow-up questions. you've been with the minneapolis police department for about six years at this point and prior to that you said you were an emt as well. >> correct. >> as far as the minneapolis police department is concerned, there arern officers trained as essentially first responders, correct? >> correct. with the certification. >> emergency medical responder. >> and it's sort of aic lower-level of medical training, correct? >> emt, that is correct. >> so you may go to a cpr class, then you have c your first
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responders, then an emt paramedic. >> that would be the natural progression, yes. >> so, you have experienced -- did you work as an emt as well as -- >> i did. so you had experience as a police officer as well as an emt. >> correct. >> you testified part of your role in the medical program is to present officers with information as to multiple medical issues that they may encounter. >> correct. >> and it's not just limited to first aid or first responder cpr, correct? >> no, we also teach wellness classes, whether it's sleep -- we have a wide variety of classes.. >> and you have classes on topics including delirium? >> correct. >> and you have topics including the administration of narcan. >> correct. >> and officers, are minneapolis
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police department officers required to train narcan and do they receive that training? >> yes. >> and do these medical topics at the continuum education classes, they may come up an hour here or half-hour there during an in-service, right? >> depends on the topic. yes. >> the emr stuff is kind of a standalone class. >> correct. that's basically your initial medical training and your required to get a post certification and that is about a 40 hour class. >> and then you have refresher classes on that stuff as well, correct.co >> it will continue on the same topics, but the minneapolis police department doesn't require [inaudible] with the certification. >> andeq so, the certification that we saw mr. chauvin had expiring in 2016 i believe.
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>> that was cpr. >> and are of the officers required to then have cpr every two years after that? >> yes, we do cpr classes on a rotating basis, so every other year they go through cpr. >> now, i would like to talk to you about a couple of minneapolis policies if we could. there are essentially two minneapolis police department policies that deal with emergency medical response, correct?
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>> correct. >> one being after use of force. >> that's correct. >> and being as soon reasonably practical determined if anyone rendered medical aid consistent with training and request ems if necessary, correct? >> correct. >> that is policy 5-306 involving use of force? >> correct. >> so, the policy is somewhat qualified, correct? meaning if as soon reasonably practical, correct? >> correct. in the course of the medical training, one of the things you train officers to do in the administration of first aid is to consider other circumstances, right? >> correct. you have to make sure that it's safe before you are able to render it. >> and there is being safe could come from a number of factors, correct? >> absolutely. environmental factors such as where you are located. whether there is a lot of
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traffic, correct? >> yes. >> whether there are a lot of bystanders. >> correct. >> based on their behavior. >> so it seems the safety is important and minneapolis police or the emts won't come to the scene until it is a code number four. >> generally, yes. >> many times it is not unlikely to stage on-site until the police call the scene code number for being all clear, all safe, come on in. >> so in that situation if the scene is unsafe, the emts don't come in at that point. >> correct. >> the othernt policy that we dl withth here is policy, minneapos
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police policy 7-300. that's in front of you right now? >> it is. >> and again, the instance relative>> to the emergency medical response. minneapolis police department officers are required to correct request ems as soon aspect of all. so there may be certain things that prevent an officer from calling in ems, right? >> absolutely. >> so, both of the medical policies are somewhat qualified or contingent upon what's going on at the scene at the time, right? now, in terms of this exhibit 111, which is the cpr presentation thatat you presentd
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-- i'm going to turn to 21856 down at the bottom. there is a reference to agile breathing. what is an egg and all breathing? >> something that you will see and somebody that is unresponsive and they are in some sort of respiratory distress. we see this quite often with opiate overdoses and medical emergencies what have you. >> can you describe exactly what agonal breathing is? >> it's more of an irregular
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gasping for air. like your brain's last ditch effort to try to pull something in. >> and a person observing someone going through agonal breathing, it is common or it would be possible that they would misinterpret that as actual breathing, effective breathing? >> yes, it can be easily confused with breathing. >> so, an officer is dealing with someone who is experiencing agonal breathing. it could potentially be possible for an officer to misinterpret agonal breathing for effective breathing? >> it could. >> in certainth circumstances where there's a lot of noise or a lot of commotion, would it be more likely that that couldom happen? >> yes. now, you were shown this slide in terms of when do we stop cpr,
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and one of the reasons you stopped performing cpr is because it isn't safe. by not being safe are you referring to the process of actually giving cpr or the environment? >> it would be the environment around you. >> is it reasonable to understand that it would be not safe, you may not start it right away? >> yes. you also testified that you teach on narcan and the use of narcan. you can see this in front of you? is this training that you provided to minneapolis police department officers?
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>> yes. ander this is the program at the broad course on how to administer narcan, correct? >> correct. do you recognize this as a record that you keep an ordinary class of your business? >> i had thismr labeled as 1041. >> 1041 is a received.
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permission to publish 1041. >> this is from the minneapolis police department from july of 2018. >> correct. a. >> andnd if mr. chauvin attended this program in july he would have received this training, gcorrect? >> correct. >> in recent years, fentanyl has become more of a concern for officers to be aware of, correct? >> absolutely. >> and ultimately, you train officers in the use of narcan to contraindicated or to contradict
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i should say the effect of narcan, right? >> opiates, correct. >> in your experience as a police officer and as a medical trainer, have youur experienced individuals who take combinations of drugs? >> yes. >> have you heard the term speedball? >> i have. a. >> would you agree that has become generally a stimulant like methamphetamine and a depressant like fentanyl? >> yes. >> [inaudible] sidebar, your honor. >> [sidebar]
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can you describe for the jury what a speedball is? >> it is a combination of an upper and a downer. >> and is that become commonplace in your experience? >> yes. >> as fentanyl has become more prominent, do you see that in legal form such as patches or other pills that may be administered by a hospital? do you see that on the streets? >> yes. totally legitimate purposes.
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can you explain for the jury whether in your experience you seen illicit fentanyl use on the rise? >> someone may fall asleep, someone may be very tired, kind of out of it, correct? >> [inaudible] >> rephrase that. >> would this be consistent with what you would see generally on an opiate overdose? >> it could be. >> have you ever been at a scene where an opiate overdose someone can be more responsive?
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>> yes. >> even though they've taken an opiate? >> correct. >> no, in terms of fentanyl, can you explain this slide? >> certainly. this is a diagram to show you just what could be considered a lethal dose of fentanyl. it's more of a visual indicator because we already know how dangerous heroin is. and you can see a trace amount of that could be deadly with fentanyl and even more -- >> so even in small doses it could be fatal, is that accurate? >> objection, your honor. sidebar. >> i will rephrase the question. >> [inaudible] >> sidebar. [sidebar]
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[sidebar] [sidebar]
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[sidebar] these are the training materials that you present to minneapolis police officers relevant to the use of narcan and controlled substances that they may
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encounter in the performance of their duties.an >> correct. >> we can take this down. you also discuss with officers the concept of excited delirium. >> correct. >> you provide them with training materials about c that means. >> yes. >> and generally speaking, without reviewing your training materials, can you describe what you've trained minneapolis police officers about excited delirium? >> this is a class that is taught at the academy.th it is the one hour block of instruction to recognize the signs and symptoms of excited delirium and best responses for handling that. so, delirium is a combination of education, psychosis,
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hypothermia, a wide variety of things you might see any person, bizarre behavior. and recognizing that this is a medical condition, not necessarily a criminal matter. >> would that include discussion of controlled substances? in the context of excited delirium? >> yes because what we are usually teaching is that most people that are experiencing something like excited delirium, usually there is illicit drugs on board that might be a contributing factor. >> and as far as what do you trained minneapolis police officers relevant to the physical attributes of a person experiencing excited delirium? >> the person might be experiencing hypothermia, elevated body temperature. that could be displayed with
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somebody taking off their clothes anyplace not appropriate, or in the middle of winter, something like that. and just based on their activities, their heart rate might be extremely elevated and they might be insensitive to pain. >> how does it affect strength? >> because you don't really have that pain compliance that would normally otherwise kind of control somebody's behavior, so if somebody isis experiencing these, they might have what we call superhuman strength. they might be able to lift thingsng they wouldn't normally otherwise be able to lift. they might be breaking things. >> in terms of -- i'm going to just back up and talk a little bit more about the response to a
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medical emergency by ems, again based on your experience as a police officer and an emt. you talked abouted how sometimes ems will stay off-site until the scene is clear and safe, correct? >> correct. >> and have used heard the term load and go and can you explain what that is? >> i think it is more of an informal term that is used with first responders. that essentiallyor means that as soon they are going to be arriving it is a priority to get a person in the ambulance as soon as possible andla in routeo the hospital as soon as possible. >> are there reasons and emt or paramedic would choose to do that rather than administering first aid at the scene? >> yes. >> what are those reasons? >> [inaudible] >> if you know. if you don't know, just say so.
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>> i feel comfortable answering it.ib by way of example, if maybe somebody had a knife in their chest, obviously there's only so many things you can do for that person prehospital. really the only thing that is going to save that person's immediate surgery. a. >> so, there may be conditions of the individual that warrant that kind of pick up and go? >> yeah. >> and what about people in the area? could that affect and emt's decision to load and go? >> yes. >> how so? >> if you have a hostile or volatile crowd to -- it sounds unreasonable, but bystanders dob occasionally attack and ems crew. so sometimes just getting out of the situation is the best way to diffuse it. >> and have you ever had to perform emergency services in
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not even a hospital with just in a loud excited crowd? >> yes. >> is that in your experience more or less difficult? >> it is incredibly difficult. >> why? >> if you are trying to be head down on a patient you need to render aid to, it is difficult to focus on that patient while there's other things around you if you don't feel safe around you. if you don't have enough resources. it's difficult to focus. >> it can be distracting. >> absolutely. >> so does it make it more difficult to assess the patient? >> it does. >> it doesn't make it more likely that you would miss signs that a patient is experiencing something? >> yes. >> so the distraction can actually harm the potential care of the patient? >> yes. >> i have no furtherer question.
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>> our officers trained that sometimes they have to provide emergency medical services in less than ideal conditions? >> yes. the rendering of emergency aid in practice doesn't happen in a classroom setting, does it? >> correct. >> so you are in the environment as you find it. >> right. >> in terms of the crowd and the crowd being hostile, how would you define hostility? >> there would be a growing contingent of people if they are yelling, being even verbally abusive to those providing
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security. >> what else? >> if people try to interfere in the crime scene. >> perhaps use a weapon, throw rocks or bottles, something like that could prevent someone from providing emergency aid, is that right? >> yes. >> with a group of onlookers may excuse t the officer from rendering aid to a subject who needs it? >> if they were physically getting themselves involved. >> if they were physically prevented from doing it. >> yes. >> you said superhuman strength, right? would you say that that is because of the inability to feel pain, is that right?
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>> that is part of it, yes. >> the inability to feel pain is something you associate with our train officers to associate with excited delirium? >> that could be the case, yes. >> if someone was manifesting the response to pain indicating something was hurting them, that would tend to indicate that they are not suffering from excited delirium is that right? >> rephrase. >> what would the subject response be to suggest as it relates to excited delirium. >> it may not be excited delirium. it is a little bit a part of predicting because no two people will present thehe same way. >> how do you tell what it is? >> it is just a matter of taking the information you had at the time to decide if this could potentially be a case of that order to plan accordingly.
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>> and you indicate whatever excited delirium is you look at it as a medical issue that needs treatment. >> in terms of the drug use as well is it fair to say if someone is showing addiction or drug intoxication, it can make them vulnerable not just violent. >> correct. >> nothing further. >> let's take ten minutes. we have to deal with one issue. the witness will remain, however. so ten minutes and we will be back in touch. they are taking a ten minute break and we will as well. just a reminder in case you missed any of the testimony today, we will re- air it
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tonight at 8:00 eastern and all of the coverage of the trial on c-span.org. while they are in this break we willre show some of the testimoy from earlier. >> you are still under oath. >> thank you, your honor. sir, we left off you were looking at exhibit 119 page 56. can you please explain to the jury how you train minneapolis police officersli handcuffing techniques in the use of force? >> we teach several different positional handcuffing techniques as well as how to approach people when they are going to be handcuffed and then once you may contact now to apply them.
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>> how do you properly place the cuffs? >> one at a time and then once they are on and everything is under control, things calm down to the point you have control of the subject. you want to make sure that you check and double walk for their safety. when they sit back they tend to tighten up on a person, so be mindful of the handcuffs. the double walk is a button you push and it prevents the cuffs from coming undone or going in. >> [inaudible] >> the officer can be in many different positions -- >> some of the testimony from earlier. we will take you back to the courthouse. the judge and the attorneys are there. t the jury was dismissed for ten minutes for a recess but they are in a conference, judicial
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conference. we willl stay here live. >> i'm going to excuse you for the day. the defense would like to call you back. mr. nelson [inaudible] i'm going to order a subpoena and you should unless you otherwise can come next tuesday but most likely mr. nelson will tell you when exactly so you don't y just waste your time. so, mr. nelson, how is that going to be served? >> through the federation. >> absolutely. >> for today, you are excused.
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we will bee in recess until 2:35 at least.
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>> now back today number seven of derek chauvin's trial and the death of george floyd. the prosecution brought in los angeles police sergeant jody stiger to te

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