tv Day 7 of Trial for Derek Chauvin Accused in Death of George Floyd CSPAN April 7, 2021 2:35am-3:41am EDT
much closer -- >> we left off, you're looking at exhibit 119, 119, page e are starting to discuss what your training is regarding handcuffing. could you please explain to the jury how you train minneapolis police officers in handcuffing techniques and use of force? >> yes, sir. we take several different positional handcuffing techniques as well as how to approach people when they're going to be handcuffed. and then once you make contact with the person how to properly place the cuffs and procedures afterwards. >> how do you properly place the
cuffs? >> one cup at a time and then once they're on and everything is under control and code four as we call it things have called in to the point we have control of the subject, you want to make sure you check the fit and double locked in for the safety. they tend to tighten up on the person so you want to hold the handcuffs. >> double locking prevents further tightening of handcuffs? >> yes. it's a little button you used to push to either keep them from coming and undergoing in. >> there's several different positions that an author can be when they're handcuffing the suspect, is that right? >> i'm sorry? >> the officer can be in many different positions relative to the subject we are handcuffing? >> absolutely. very dynamic, yes or. >> standing, prone? >> yes or. >> i would like you to please describe to the jury what techniques are used to prone
handcuffed the subject. >> with pro-handcuffing want to make sure we isolate. a lot of time which each the officers to use the need to control their shoulder. generally you put one need on each side of the arm to one of the upper shoulder, middle of the back, excuse me, and then isolate that arm, present the rest for cuffing and then handcuff. a lot of times when you doing the prone cuffing you do that with a partner preferably. makes a lot easier to control a person. >> if someone is handcuffed and you are using your knee under back for shoulder to gain control, do you leave it there for an extended period of time? >> it depends on the circumstance. you can leave it there for a longer period of time depending on the resistance you get. >> and what would signal to you as a trainer when you are supposed to to release your knee?
>> when their behavior de-escalates the resistance. relative to the handcuffing? >> that's correct sir, yes. >> so once you of accomplished i handcuffing the subject has been handcuffed, is that the appropriate time to release your like. >> was not necessarily. >> why? >> when people are handcuffed in the prone position taken trash around and they do present all of the of the threat. they can kick, right, some other things so control doesn't in with handcuffing always. >> if the subject is resisting, correct? >> that's correct. >> the new possibility that a potential that is subject could resist like that kicking, is that justification to leave your leg in place? >> no, sir. i would say you need behavior that would lead to -- [inaudible] >> so once the subject is handcuffed and compliant or not resisting, is the officer to
remove their knee? >> i would be an appropriate time. >> and how long again is the person, the subject, to be left in the prone handcuffed position once they are compliant? >> it depends on the circumstances that you are involved in with this person and surrounding environment. >> so sue the circumstances that i just stated, the subject is prone, handcuffed, and no longer resisting. >> reasonably necessary at the time to do it, then you should get them in a different position. >> what position is that? >> it depends on circumstances, but you can put them in the recovery position on the side. you can set them up, stand them up. >> why would you want to put them into a different position? >> there is the possibility and risk that some people have difficulty breathing when the handcuffs are behind their back and they are on the stomach. >> and what is at known as?
>> i'm sorry, rephrase. >> are you familiar with the phrase positional shf? >> all, yes, sir. >> is that the danger you would be trying to avoid by putting someone in a side recovery position? >> as one of the dangers you are trying to avoid yes objection. >> sustained the last answer is stricken. rephrase. >> he testified your family with the term positional shf? >> yes, i in. why would you will summon into the side recovery position after they been handcuffed and are compliant? >> several reasons are there but one would be to prevent potential situation with the might be subject to positional asphyxiation. >> and how soon is a subject to be placed into the side recovery position after they become compliant and no longer resistant? >> when the scene is code four and you're able to do it. >> in terms of subject safety,
how soon should the person be put into the side recovery position? >> i would say sooner the better. >> now, you testified that there are circumstances in which the subject can't offer for the resistance even though they are handcuffed, is that right? >> yes, sir. >> i would like to direct your attention to page 58 of exhibit 219. this slide discusses maximal restraint technique, is that right? >> that is correct. >> is there a particular device that is used to accomplish the maximal restraint technique? >> yes, sir, it is the rip restraint or the rip hobble. >> can you please describe the technique to the jury? >> yes, sir. if you have a subject that is handcuffed behind her back generally, if that's the way we like to handcuffed people and they continue to cause a threat
to you or other people or themselves, we have our offices to use the maxims technique which is to take a nylon strap with a clamp on it and you and wrapped that around their legs and then connected to the front of the body if possible, like a belt loop or a second restraint around the waist and that dims the likes of the legs are no longer a threat to kick out at you, kind up with her legs and about a 90° angle so you're not able to extend the legs out to clicky kick you is that arafat. >> you are aware of the use of the maximal strength technique is governed by mpd policy? >> yes, sir. >> and that is five dash 316? >> that is correct. >> okay. is there more than one device that's authorized to perform the maximal restraint technique? >> i believe right now it is just the ripp hobble is the one
we use. >> and so if an officer reason believes that a subject is thrashing, would you recommend that they use this maximal restraint technique to ensure their safety? >> yes, sir. >> and if they do so in accordance with mpd policy five dash 316 in your training what does the officer need to do after the subject has been placed in the mrt and is prone? >> place them in the recovery position. >> how soon? >> as soon as possible. >> why? >> because when you further restrict their ability to move a can further restrict their ability to breathe.
>> in terms of the appropriateness of force, would you agree with the proposition that force must be reasonable when is applied? >> yes, sir. >> and which also agree that circumstances can change, subject behavior can change? >> yes, sir. >> the environment can change? >> yes, sir. >> are you familiar with minneapolis mpd critical thinking module? >> critical decision-making model? yes, sir. >> yes. that's kind of a graphic that -- objection. >> i i haven't asked a question you. >> try not to be leaning with that. let's try to rephrase it. >> is the critical thinking model, a graphical representation of the different concept? >> i don't know if i understand that question. >> are usually with the concept of reassessment? >> of reassessment?
absolutely. >> can you describe reassessment to the jury? >> yes, sir. the critical decision-making model we put basically a template together offers us to at and understand the thinking processes and reevaluation is when you're looking at circumstances you are involved in and you're you are coy looking for factors that change. so you can change your behavior. >> and is reassessment something that you have been teaching even before the advent of this model? >> oh, yes. it's better have to use of force. >> and so there can be a point in time when a particular type of force is a reasonable, but as time passes circumstances can change? >> yes, sir. >> and that force would no longer be reasonable? >> that's correct. >> if that's the case was the officer -- what is the officer to do? >> to change their force.
minneapolis police department provides. you testified that one of your specialties or i believe that you talked about how you develop the ground defense program. >> one of the people, yes. >> can you just described generally what is the ground defense program? >> it's using techniques other than strikes to control individuals, and that's the broad term. >> and essentially that was a program that was introduced some ten, 15 you to go to the mpd? >> i believe it is ten years now. >> that's using different like jujitsu moves or different body control methods versus punching or striking an individual, right? >> that's correct. >> that was a program again that you helped develop and found, and you continue to train throughout the minneapolis police department during your time as, in the training division, right?
dangerous job? >> yes, sir. >> you yourself in the course of your career has had to use force against suspects? >> yes, sir. >> you've arrested many people i presume? >> yes, sir. >> would you agree sometimes people are not particularly happy about being arrested? >> very rarely, sir. >> and sometimes they fight with you? >> yes, sir. >> and sometimes they argue wiki? >> yes, sir. >> sometimes they make excuses? >> yes, sir. >> and ultimately whether the things that a police officer has to do is try to determine is this person pretending or trying to give me some excuse not to get arrested, or is this person experiencing some other crisis, right? >> yes. >> and ultimately in terms of an arrest that's one of the things and officer has to ascertain, right? >> yes, sir. >> and again when you have arrested people have you had
people plead with you not to arrest him? >> yes, sir. >> have you had people say they're having a medical emergency? >> yes, sir. >> have you had people say i can't breathe? >> yes, sir. >> and were their circumstances during the course of your career as a patrol officer where you didn't believe that that person was having a medical emergency? >> yes, sir. >> that's all part of the analysis in terms of the use of force, right? >> it plays a part, yes, sir. >> so if someone comes to you and says, if you tell someone i am under arrest, one way that a person can resist arrest is through the use of the words, agreed? >> yes, sir. >> and that is a form of what you would call passive resistance? >> dipping on the types of words they use. >> right. so words could be both passive
or active resistance, right? >> i would say yes. >> so the difference between -- i'm having a heart attack versus screw you, you know, you're not going to take -- >> yes. >> so that's what you mean by the difference in words? >> that's correct. >> or if the suspect is threatening you when you are arresting. >> that's correct. >> now, the whole concept of this ground defense program as you testified was to really use bodyweight and control to gain compliance of a subject, right? >> yes, sir. >> and would you agree that in any use the force situation the circumstances can change from minute to minute, second to second? >> yes, sir. >> so somebody who is initially complied can suddenly become noncompliant? >> that is correct.
>> some of his peacefully going into custody could suddenly become violent towards an officer? >> that is correct. >> somebody who is violent in one second becomes compliant, could become violent again, right? >> yes, sir. >> you have experienced that yourself? >> i have. >> and an officer in terms of the use of force, you don't train officers specifically to only focus on the individual that they're taking into custody, do you? >> no. >> do you train them on officers to consider it to take into consideration other factors? >> yes, sir. >> such as? their partners and safety? >> that's correct. >> such as a crowd? >> correct. >> such as the difference between a crowd, right? >> right. >> are they happy crowd or are they in angry crowd. >> yes, sir. >> in terms of comp we talked
about the proportionality of the use of force and kind down sliding force up and down that model, do you recall that? >> yes, sir. >> when officer uses force today, do trained officers take into consideration what happens immediately prior to the use of particular use of force? >> could you rephrase that, sir? i'm sorry. >> sure. in terms of the continuation of use of force, do you train officers to take into consideration what is happened with that suspect in the immediate preceding events? >> yes, sir. >> so, for example, if you were just fighting with the suspect and that person becomes compliant, the set become a consideration in terms of a continued use of force? >> yes, sir. >> if someone has a sizable or a
large size difference, do train officers to take that into consideration in terms of the use of force? >> yes, sir. >> so if somebody, if some person had fought with more than one officer at a time, do you train officers to take that into consideration as far as the continuing use of force? >> yes, sir. >> so one person against three people is a factor that officers would consider for the continued use of force? >> yes, sir. >> do you train officers relevant to the use the force for people who are under the influence of controlled substances? >> it's a consideration, yes. >> and in your experience have you ever had to use force against somebody who is under the influence of a controlled substance? >> yes, sir. >> do you train officers that certain controlled substances can cause a person to exhibit more strength than they would have otherwise?
>> yes, sir. >> so going back to the ground defense program. the ground control -- excuse me, the ground defense program really uses a lot of joint manipulations, correct? >> yes, sir. >> pressure points? >> not so much pressure point with crowd control. >> bodyweight, pens? >> yes, sir. >> so using the officers bodyweight to physically control an individual, greg? >> yes, sir. >> now you were previously interviewed by the fbi in connection with this case? >> yes, sir. >> and you are aware that your statement was recorded, transcribe and that -- were you aware that? >> i was aware that. >> have you had an opportunity to review your statement to the fbi?
>> no. >> someone ask you just some general questions and if i need to refresh your recollection i will do so, okay? >> thank you. >> so in terms of minneapolis police department policy the difference between a choke hold and the neck restraint, correct? >> that that is correct. >> a chocolate is considered a lethal or deadly use of force, correct? >> correct. >> at a chokehold is defined by minneapolis policy a specifically blocking the trachea or the airway of the suspect from the front side, correct? >> correct. >> so essentially what you would kind of think of is almost strangulation, putting her hands about someone's neck and squeezing the front of the neck, correct? >> yes, sir. >> in this particular case have had an opportunity to review the body-worn cameras, the bystander surveillance or the bystander cameras? >> i have seen both, search. >> at any point did you see off-the-shelf and use chokehold in this case -- officer chauvin?
>> no, sir. >> in terms of neck restraint you said you testified that you have been involved in the martial arts since college? >> yes, sir. >> and i believe if i'm not mistaken that you also trained mma fighting? >> no, , sir, i get. >> have you ever? >> no, sir. >> but in the course of your training both in martial arts as well as like brazilian jujitsu and your trained to use force instruct instructive experience neck restraints, quick? >> yes, sir. >> and you thought individual officers i believe you say hundreds of times and hundreds of officers on how to use a neck restraint, correct? >> yes, sir. >> and a neck restraint as you have described it is, requires both sides of the neck to be compressed in order to render a person unconscious, correct? >> that is what we teach, yes.
>> how much pressure has to be applied to both sides of the neck in order to render a person unconscious, based on your training? >> it depends. >> on what factor? >> size of the person, your skill, whether they are on narcotics or not, whether they're having an adrenaline rush heart rate, general physical health. a lot of factors involved. >> typically do you have to apply a lot of pressure to let's say a healthy individual for a long period of time in order to render some of unconscious? >> i would say no. >> do you recall what is the percentage of pressure that you would generally expect to have to apply? >> i don't know if i can -- >> objection. >> overbilled. >> question again, sir. >> what amount of pressure do you have to apply typically in
order to render somewhat unconscious. >> i don't know if i can answer that. it varies her individual. >> so you said factors such as controlled substance use playing to a, correct? >> yes, sir. >> and if the subject is on control subjects on a controlled substance doesn't speed up the process or slow it down of rendering some of unconscious? >> i think my experiences are that he would speed it up. >> and to someone has said another factor is if someone has an adrenaline surge, right? >> yes, sir. >> anderson has an adrenaline surge coursing through their body, does the use of a neck restraint speed up or is that adrenaline speed up or slow down the unconsciousness of speedy objection your honor. [inaudible] >> moore foundation. >> your honor, i can refresh his recollection with his statement
is -- >> your honor, , can we have a sidebar? >> no. proceed. >> would it refresh your recollection to review your statement relevant to adrenaline and the impact of how it speeds up or slows down and neck restraint? >> i don't believe i need to see that. i know the answer. >> what is the answer? >> the edges higher your blood rate, respiration and heart rate is, generally the faster neck restraint affects somebody. >> and how long base on your training and experience does it typically take to render a person unconscious using a neck restraint? >> my experience, under ten seconds. >> under ten seconds? >> yes, sir. >> now with a neck restraint is applied, does the minneapolis police department specifically trained people to be cautious when reviving or attempting to revive a suspect?
>> hold somebody? yes. >> and for for a period of , correct? >> yes, sir. you can have your arm around the neck for a period of time, yes. >> and there would be circumstances that would affect and officers decision on whether to hold that person in the position for some period of time, correct? >> yes, sir. >> that would include baby waiting for other officers to arrive? >> yes, sir. >> waiting for ems to arrive? >> i don't know about that. i wouldn't go that far, no. >> you also train in the training department officers on what are called the human factors the force, correct? >> yes, sir. >> generally can you describe what the human factors the force are? >> yes, sir. it involves either a slow response to the office or getting scared or having an adrenaline rush of adrenaline dump in their body and it affects your cognitive, physical
abilities when you encounter stress like that. >> so it is fair to say that when officer is engaged in a use of force incident, him or herself, , they may experience a rush of adrenaline as well? >> yes, sir. >> you have experienced that yourself? >> yes, sir. >> and after the situation has called down to some degree, the officer expenses an adrenaline rush or dump, excuse me? >> the adrenaline can continue to course through the body, yes. >> at some point it leaks? >> yes, sir. >> and that adrenaline, officers are trained on this, correct? >> yes, sir. >> it's a part of the standard training for both recruit officers in the academy as well as veteran officers in their in-service? >> that's correct. >> how frequent is the human factors of force taught? >> i believe we teach them once you we discuss human factors
force. >> you also trained officer to be very much aware of their surroundings at all times? >> yes, sir. >> you were asked a series of questions about continuing to hold someone in own position and you use the term you could hold them there until code four, you recall that? >> yes. >> so it's fair to say that the minneapolis police department would train officers under certain circumstances to hold a person in a prone position until the scene is safe, correct? >> that are circumstances where that is appropriate yes. >> and some of the circumstances could be the reaction of bystanders, correct? >> that would be a factor yes. >> they could include where you are physically located in terms of a geographical area, correct? >> yes. >> where you are in terms of other hazards that may present themselves to an officer or to
the suspect, right? >> yes, sir. >> being in a busy street in the middle of a busy street versus being in a park or a yard for something. >> yes, sir. >> now, you also described the minneapolis police department's policy in terms of rendering medical aid is that you can, right? >> yes. >> an officer is required to do that? >> yes, sir. >> but there are certain circumstances, correct me if i'm wrong, where an officer has to consider whether it's safe for the officer to do so, correct? >> yes, sir. >> and, in fact, the training that minneapolis police officers receive requires it to be safe for an officer to render medical aid, agreed? >> generally, yes. >> and one of the considerations an officer has to make in determining whether to render medical aid is whether or not
the suspect is cuffed or uncapped, right? >> that would be a factor, yes. >> there are circumstances where you have been fighting with the person and you have gotten them handcuffed and you have to decide is it worth the risk to take these handcuffs off to give this person medical a? >> yes, sir. >> because once you on handcuffed a suspect they could become resistant again, correct? >> that is correct. >> you have to decide is at a ak you are willing to take? >> yes, sir. >> you also described the recovery position, correct? >> yes, sir. >> the recovery position could be rolling someone on their side, sitting them up or standing up, right? >> yes, sir. >> and again there would be circumstances you can envision
circumstances where you would not put a person into the recovery position, correct? >> yes, sir. >> again, all of those factors, now we have kind talk about in terms of partner safety, personal safety, safety of the subject, safety of the crowd, all of those things are going through that critical decision-making model process, right? >> that's right. >> now in terms of the -- use of body weight to hold a suspect, you train officers to use their
need across the back shoulder to the base of the neck of a subject, correct? >> yes. >> that is something that is specifically trained by the minneapolis police department, whether it be for handcuffing purposes or simply prone control of a subject? >> yes, sir. >> so if a person is in handcuffs, officers are specifically trained to put a need across the shoulder blade of the suspect judah trapezius -- is that what it is called? >> trapezoid, yeah. i'm not a medical doctor. >> and that is routinely trained by the minneapolis police department both in terms of the academy as well as, as well as in-service? >> situationally, yes. >> and simply because a person is handcuffed they would be
if we could publish exhibit 17. you were asked a series of about whether this is, appears to be a train minneapolis neck restrain restraint. >> yes i was asked that. >> and you said no, correct? >> correct. >> but you hedged of orbit and said said that may be some other training. >> perhaps. >> what with that training the? >> using bodyweight to control, however i will add that we don't, we kill officers to stay away from the neck when possible and if you're going to use bodyweight to thin, to put on the shoulder and be mindful of the position. >> we can take this down and just to the witness i would like to display a couple of -- this
is page 41 of exhibit 126. show this to the witness. can you see that, sir? >> not yet. >> sorry. this is already in. in this bottom corner here, do you see a photograph of an individual demonstrating how to handcuffed a person? >> yes, sir. >> and that knee is cause the of that individual, correct or? nes on his our shoulder. >> across the base of the neck. >> up to the knee, yes. across the back of an expert so that's what were talking about prone handcuffing. this is a pacific kind a photograph that demonstrates the placement of any as it applies to prone handcuffing, correct?
>> correct. >> and ultimate if that person were to be handcuffed and circumstances dictate it, the officer would be permitted to continue to hold his knee in that same position, agreed? >> i would say yes, however, we have cautioned officers be mindful of the neck area and to look for the shoulder. >> perfect. we can take this down. can we take that down, your honor? i'm going to show you what is being introduced as exhibit 56 already. can you see that, sir? >> yes, sir. >> it appears to be -- [inaudible] >> yes, sir.
>> appears to be the paramedic checking the product pulse of mr. floyd? >> yes. >> in your experience this is always admitted as exhibit 56. in your experience would you be able to touch the carotid artery if the knee was placed on the carotid artery? >> no, sir. >> i'm showing what is been marked for identification purposes as exhibit 1045, 1045. and you generally take a look at that? >> yes, sir. >> now in terms of, do you recognize that this appears to be a still photograph taken from the body-worn camera of one of the involved officers?
>> that's what it appears to be, yes. >> there's a time stamp on it that indicates may 25, 2020 at 20:23:32? >> yes, sir. >> and can you see two officers in this area here holding mr. floyd? >> yes, sir. >> and does not that appeare the placement of one officers knee and leg? >> yes, sir. >> does that appear to be across the shoulder blade to the base of the neck? >> it appears the across the shoulder blade. i don't know if i can tell you where they knee is. >> i would offer 1045. >> any objection?
[inaudible] >> no objection, your honor. >> 1045 is received. >> request to publish. can we clear that? what we're seeing here again, this is at 8:23:32? >> yes, sir. >> obviously this is taken from one of the body cameras and here you can see down in that area the leg placement of the officer, correct? >> yes, sir. >> and based on your observation of the photograph it appears that the shin is coming from the top of the shoulder, across the shoulder blade, correct? >> yes, sir. >> and it appears to be at an angle pointed in towards the squad car, , correct? >> yes, sir. >> all right. if we could take this down, your honor.
i think i accidentally closed. hang on one second. i'm showing what has been marked for identification purposes as 1046. does not appear to be a similar angle? >> yes, sir. >> and i apologize, this was actually officer lanes body-worn camera. >> again, can you see what appears to be the placement of
the leg of one of the officers at the shoulder blade of mr. floyd? >> it appear so. >> you can see in this area here what appears to be a back or the calf area come across a shoulder blade, correct? >> yes, sir. >> again, a timestamp is 10:26:40? >> yes, sir. >> and does that need placement appear to be similar to how i minneapolis doesn't excuse me, similar to the placement in the previous exhibit? >> the last exhibit? >> yes. >> yes. >> and that was roughly a couple of minutes after, right? >> yes, sir. >> i would offer exhibit 1046. [inaudible]
>> 8:26:40. >> no objection. >> received. >> permission to publish? >> published. >> again it is a little hard to see in this particular photograph but if we look in this general area here, correct, you can see the placement of the knee, correct? >> i can see the general area of the placement of the knee, yes. >> today we have what appears to be the shin come over the top of mr. mr. floyd shoulder blade? >> that's what appears. >> and angled in towards the squad car, correct? >> correct. >> you can take that down, your honor. i am showing you what is been marked for identification purposes as exhibit 1047. doesn't also appear to be a still framed image taking from a
here in this particular photograph, you can see the placement of mister chauvin's knee and between the shoulder blades of mister floyd. >> yes sir. >> it happens to your this moment when you are artery is being held by. >> yes sir. >> i'm going to show you one last photograph , sir. again, does this appear to be a photograph taken from still image of a minneapolis police body camera? >> yes sir. >> connie 10:28:29 seconds. excuse me,; 28: some of you really be: 29.
again an easy officer chauvin me? >> yes sir. >> can you seemister lewis had ? >> yes sir. >> i would offer. >> no objection permission to publish. and again, a little hard to see here. you can see mister in that area? mister chauvin, officer chauvin me is a place of mister. >> yes sir. >> does this appear to be a net restraint? >> no sir. >> does this appear to be a throne hold an officer may apply with hisknee ? >> yes.
>> you can take that down there. now, you have thought about taking or holding a person in the trinity position after they have stopped resisting. do you recall talkingabout that ? >> yes sir. >> are there circumstances in your career where you have had to use your body weight to hold a suspect down for a longer period of time than two orthree seconds ? >> yes sir. >> are there times when you had to use your body weight to hold a suspect down for 10 minutes ? >> i'm not sure if i have held somebody down for 10 minutesor not . >> is it possible?
>> yes, it's possible. >> and there are circumstances again an officer asked to take into consideration in terms of continuing to use their body weight regardless of whether a person is resisting or not resisting. >> rephrase that? >> sometimes an officer has called for ems. >> correct. >> sometimes an officermay hold a person using theirbody weight to restrain thembut awaiting the arrival of ems . >> yes sir . >> you don't yourself . >> yes sir. >> is it fair you had to train officers to use their body weight to continue holding them until ems arrives ? >> as much as is needed to control them, yes. >> you would agree that a
scene where force has been used in a crowd congregates and is voicingtheir displeasure or their concern or whatever you want to say , that can be achaotic situation . >> yes sir. >> and you would agree also that what you train minneapolis police officers to do relevant to their use of force is to consider the totality of the circumstances , agreed? >> yes sir. >> you train officers that the decision to use force is from their perspective . >> yes sir. >> not the perspective of hindsightbeing 20/20 . >> that's correct. >> that's the specific policy of the minneapolis police department. >> i believe that in connor. >> that's incorporated into theminneapolis police
departmentpolicy on the use of force . >> correct. >> because situations are rapidly evolving . >> that's correct. >> sometimes just because an incident is 10 minutes long or 20 minutes long it doesn't mean that it can't instantaneously change . >> that is correct. >> what may not be athreat one second can be athreat the next . >> correct . >>. >> have you ever been trained or trained others to say that if a person can talk,they can breathe ? >> i have said that, yes. >> in terms of their continuation of the use of force, or excuse me, the continuation of the graphic that we looked at in exhibit
-- 110. if we could publish exhibit 110. this is the defense control and response training act, correct ? >> that's correct. >> simply because a person is not actively resisting, that doesn't mean you can't use some degree of force, correct ? >> that's correct. >> if a person is passively resisting you canstill use certain types of force . >> that's correct. >> that's in this area here and that would include the use of joint manipulation, passport hold, pressure points. >> yes sir. >> if we could take that down, your honor. sorry, if we could take it
down. you were asked a series of questions about the strike chart and the red yellow and green zones. >> yes. >> that chart is designed specifically for punches, paul strikes and things of that nature. >> that's where we use that graph, yes. >> in terms of the maximal restraint techniques, you were describing the use of the maximal restraint technique. >> yes sir. >> and again, officers are trained to sometimes as the late the use of force in certain circumstances, correct? >> yes. >> and de-escalate the use of force in certain circumstances. >> if an officer decides initially to use the maximal restraint technique, and then
subsequently decided against it because of a medical situation or because of a lack of resistance, would that be a de-escalation of the use offorce ? >> yes. >> is it more or less difficult to render medical aid if someone is in a maximal restraint technique? >> i would say it's probably more difficult. >> you would not be able to put them on their back for example. >> it would be difficult, yes . >> in terms of the use of force part of the ground defense program is actually to use bodyweight as a form of de-escalation . >> that's use of force but
may be used instead of higher escalation of force, yes. >> sometimes holdingsomeone in a position can be a de-escalating technique . >> yes sir. >> and ultimately, again in terms of the use of force, on deciding how much forceshould be used , the difference in size of an officer to a subject is a consideration. >> it is a consideration, yes . >> as well as the presence of other officers. >> yes sir. >> you would agree that basically the use of force in any circumstance is incredibly dependent upon the situation. >> yes sir. >> and when an officer is using force, they are to
employ the critical decision-makingmodel , correct? >> they should be using that all times. >> but including the useof force . >> and that critical decision-making model is not simply focused exclusively on the subject of the force being used. >> it's a situational awarenesstool . >> and the situational awareness extends beyond the subject. >> that's correct. >> it extends to numerous factors . >> correct. >> i have no further questions. >>.
>> thank you your honor. the follow-up on some questions counsel is asking you regarding the use of force being reasonable in the eyes of the officer. at what you answered, is that right? >> the officer involved force is used. >> but force is always subject to review and review is always going tobe after-the-fact . >> that's correct. >> the force that used to review must be reasonable. >> that's correct. >> taken from theperspective of the officer at the time . >> that's correct. >> but the officer didn't have better discretion to use forced english . >> they do not. >> we publish one again. which is the control died.
when we look over here on the left-hand side talking about what force can be used what is proportional we see officers look at the subject behavior, that right? >> or course on the subject, yes, sir. >> the amount of force has to be fortunate to thesubject behavior , correct much in mark. >> generally speaking yes. >> so if for example the group of bystanders were doing something that the officer might find annoying such as videotaping. that act could not be subject control behavior, would it? >> no sir. >> will use of force officer? >> know.
>> is not subject infull danger . >> correct. >> then publish exhibit 1 e4. >> exhibit 184 is received in evidence and what you see here is a group of my standards? >> yes sir. >> and all instances you can see bystanders have something intheir hands . >> correct. >> those of you. >> yes sir. >> not i can increase use of force. >> camera, no. >> you 184. >> will use of a knee across
a subject position? >> yes it is. >> is meant to use e gain will while the subject is being. >> all? >> is correct. >> what the subject is under control and no resistant hold them in a position where you are draining your knee across there were. >> i would say it's time to de-escalate force. >> and hit all of them. >> yes. >> own position and positional asphyxia, is that right? with that risk be increased by the addition ofbody weight ? >> yes sir. >> if an officer was placing body weight on the knee with
a knee on the neck or the back, or any, sorry, the neck and the back that would transmit the officers body weight onto theperson . >> yes sir. >> that would increase the restrictions, i guess decrease the ability of the subject to read. >> essentially sir, yes. >> and it would not be -- would that be appropriate to hold someone in a position where it's more difficult to breathe for an extended period of time after the subject has stopped offering resistant. >> could you rephrase that?
>> would it be appropriate and in training to hold a subject in that restrained position with a knee on the next and the back for a extended period of time after the subject has stopped offering resistance ? >> no sir. >> or has lost their polls. >> no sir. >> you testified an individual can be unconscious one moment and suddenly become conscious and violent. >> yes sir. >> have you ever had a circumstance where an individual has lost their polls and come back to life and become more violent . >> not that i'm aware . >>nothing further . >>. >> in terms of the use of force and continuation of the use of force, you were just shown in exhibit 184. i'm going to ask to publish
184. looking at this individual right here, does it appear that the man in blue is holding back a man in black ? >> yes sir. [inaudible] that's correct. >> in terms of the continuation of use of force, when you are talkingabout involvement of onlookers , the words they use matter, correct? >> yes they do. >> if they are cheering onand saying good job officer that's one consideration . if they are saying i would slap the out of you, that would be another.