tv Day 7 of Trial for Derek Chauvin Accused in Death of George Floyd CSPAN April 7, 2021 4:40am-5:30am EDT
>> state your full name. >> judy sti gr. >> thank you. how are you employed prayed. >> the los angeles police department. i'm a sergeant. >> and you understand that you are here today serving as a retained expert for the state in this matter is that correct printed so this is outside of your typical duties as a sergeant with a police department pretty. >> yes or i am on vacation. >> all right welcome to minnesota. and before you begin your testimony, i would like you to introduce yourself and share a little bit about your background with the jury. personal how old are you pretty. >> i am 50. >> and you indicated that are currently is a sergeant with the lapd. can you please describe for the jury how you came to be involved
in law enforcement. >> yes so, shortly after in the marine corps, i joined the los angeles police department in april 1993 pretty yesterday with my 20 year anniversary the police academy after graduatinge police academy, of assigned to a patrol division and from there, i was recruited to work undercover in high schools to buy drugs. >> the los angeles high schools in your working as an undercover, how long did you have that. >> approximately six months. after that, i was assigned to another patrol division in south los angeles. southwest division near the campus of them university of southern california.
and i worked there until 1998. >> over you duties generally is a patrol officer in that particular area of los angeles. >> the first two years, a patrol was the service primarily prayed during that time, i believe on average in our division we avere anywhere from 100 - 200 homicides a year. it was a pretty dangerous area. >> you said you held that position for how any years. >> for patrol, typically i was there for two years and then i was recruited to work the gang unit at the same division. same geographic area pretty. >> described that work for the jury pretty spec gang
intelligence, i was assigned a gang in the neighborhood and our assignment was to gather intelligence and make a rough and handling calls of service i was specific to that specific gang. >> how long did you work that gang unit. a. >> three and half years. >> and where did you go after that. >> i was recruited to go and work at the fbi task force. the same bureau for a specific to that gang that i was assigned to an southwest division. >> was a long-term investigation. >> yes so we were doing investigative work is basically we handled all crimes other than murders and sexual assault and were committed by that specific gang. >> how would you do that pretty. >> i did that for approximately a year and a half.
and then i was recruited and assigned to the training division for in-service tactics. >> partly what year was that pretty. >> approximately 2000. >> what did you do for your tactics unit. >> for the in-service tactic unit, we developed 32 hour core for los angeles police department. it was a four-day course, where we went over firearms and basic patrol tactics and arrest control techniques. >> was your assignment after that. >> after that, i was promoted to sergeant.
>> you spent some time in the use of force for your department. >> yes. the way los angeles police department use of force review is that often there is three stages so initially use of force for the entire profile. not all use, the higher uses of force so you have important that can be one peer member and depending upon the officer-involved, police officer then you have another officer sergeant and so on and so forth. as wives appear member from 2003 - 2007 prayed i was a police officer as well as a sergeant where i sat on the board with 45 people and command staffing is
appear and basically we review all the information that was gathered during the investigation we make recommendations to the chief of police. at that point the chief of police then gives that information and he makes a recommendation to the police commission. the police commission has the final say. >> and what you are reviewing is conduct involving uses of force with other officers that right. >> yes. >> what was your next assignment after serving on the board. >> that was duty so i was called for like as i earlier, was promoted to sergeant. and 2006 and i was assigned to our division downtown los angeles. >> what was required to become a sergeant for the lapd. >> i've yet to take a written test when you pass that written
test, you also have to go through an interview process and then you are right. also has to have a certain amount of college credits in order to be eligible to take the test. >> you are eventually selected a sergeant pretty cute of the jury what your first duty was as a sergeant. >> yes my first duty was assigned to our central division which was downtown los angeles. in the skid row area. >> doing what. >> i was a patrol sergeant, a field sergeant. general duties is to supervising officers assigned to a specific watch normally anywhere from ten - 20 officers could be assigned to specific watch. maybe one or two supervisors there assigned that watch as well give general duties such as providing roll call training in
early beginning of the watch as well as overall supervision. in making sure the officers are conducting themselves properly as well as if their use of force, you have to respond to the use of force. >> did you take a different position after serving as a sergeant. >> i am still sergeant but within about six months, but decided to initiatives safer cities initiative which was focusing on the homeless problem and skidrow area resorted that the next year and a half. >> you described a couple of geographic areas of los angeles he served as a patrol officer and sergeant. her negative please just describe in general terms, those areas in terms of dangers of the
crime rate there. >> my first assignment and south bureau, historically they have nice time in the city. central bureau in division usually a second or third. >> all kind of crimes do typically respond to. >> primarily violent crimes, robberies and assault things of that nature. >> i would also like to describe the jury, the training she received the use of force tactics to help you do your job as a patrol officer and a patrol sergeant. >> i was unique in a sense because i was a instructor for six years. so i had a lot of background and use of force and tactics prior to making sergeant and prior to that, a patrol officer, you
would get quarterly training as well as annual training that would keep its own up-to-date on any changes involved of the policies and procedures. >> what is it mean to be a tactics instructor. >> for our department and for the state of california have to go through different types of training so i have been through our options, instructor training as well as de-escalation training. a minute trainer for de-escalation, options, i been through the fbi instructor course. handgun instructor as well. in a number of leadership courses as well. >> have you had an educational roll are teaching roll within your department read. >> yes, stated earlier, for six years i was a practice
instructor. for in-service training for that course that i mentioned earlier pretty. >> in-service training for already serving officers, experienced officers. yes pretty did you perform annual training. >> yes. >> would you provided training as to your department's use of force policies. yes in the state law. and have you reviewed generally, the use of force policies across the nation with the use of force policies in your department. >> yes. so my current position, i am able to then the oversight inspector general the entity within the los angeles police department independent of the department itself. mls one officer that works for that unit. there's 28 overall employees and
during that time, during my time there, i was able to travel nationwide and go through a number of different police agencies to basically compare their use of force policies as well as the training with los angeles police department. >> are your policies and los angeles police department fairly consistent with the policies and standards nationwide. >> yes. >> is a short of a nationwide reasonable event of a police officer generally accepted in your field. >> yes. >> getting back to your trainer for defensive tactics and instruction, approximate how any los angeles police officers did you provided training and that six year time.
>> initial secure, approximately 3000 officers. >> can you explain to the jury the types of training you provide. >> as i stated earlier, the main focus was de-escalation. we taught them basic put patrol traffics vehicle stops, as well as firearms manipulation. and ultimately we would do the four day courses, we would or the goal was for them to realize their de-escalation tactics where they would not have to use force. >> did you teach a specific tactic on the ground training or anything like that pretty. >> no, we were we taught all of the subject. >> you indicated in your current
roll with the department, you do use of force reviews. >> no not in my current roll rated. >> in a prior roi should say. yes pretty so in terms of the reviews, number of use of force reviews that you have completed in your career, can you estimate proximally how any of done pretty. >> about 2500 approximately. >> have you ever made it findings of use of force was excessive or objectively unreasonable. >> yes. sue met and such use of force was not acceptable pretty. >> yes. >> when you've done use of force reviews is that include use of deadly force. >> yes, certain circum- certain primarily in a row, after being patrol sergeant, was assigned and promoted and assigned to be a training coordinator for south bureau which is pretty much all
of south los angeles. enough euro, but 1600 officers and at the time, for patrol divisions and one traffic division and so my job was to oversee the training for that bureau. >> you member of any professional organizations. >> yes, i am a member of a few. >> could you name the place. >> employer organization, foundations which represents african-american officers on the police department, i'm a member of the i'm drawing blank am sorry. a number of them. i'm not going to say the acronym. but a number of other place organizations that involve
tactical managers. >> i've been called upon by other law enforcement agencies to provide instructions and use of force. >> instructions, articulate no. i consulted with a number of other agencies. >> consultation use of force reviews pretty yes printed but other agencies have you assisted. >> california, president and of assisted king county office of - and i've assisted that california's police department as well as the university of california irvine police department. >> you've indicated already that you been retained as an expert witness for the state in this matter is that right. >> yes. >> new conducted review and some
of the various materials facilitated with the death of george floyd on behalf of the may 25 of 2020 is that correct pretty. >> yes. >> usurped charge a fee for your services. can you please tell the jury with the feet yes in this matter. >> there's a fluffy of $10000 and for the trial, the fee is 2900 and $15. >> and that's included reviewing all of the different materials that you have provided is not right. >> could you please tell the jury in, what materials you have reviewed pretty. >> i reviewed all of the body worn videos and other videos provided to me for cell phone video and things of that nature. and reports in the manuals for the minneapolis police department as well as the training materials. >> if we may have a slight
>> based upon your review and the different materials that you have conducted and based upon your own experience and training in law enforcement, have you reached an opinion as to the degree and amount of force used by the defendant mr. derek chauvin on george floyd. >> yes. >> and i ask you to a sling to the jury a little bit about what process or methodology that you go through to render such a decision. >> there's a few steps, the main step is going through the objectives standards which is based off of the looking at the seriousness of the crime, looking at the person's actions and things of that nature. as well as looking at the specific agency policies and procedures as well. >> in addition to the seriousness of the crime under
the standard, do you look at any other factors. >> yes predict i try to look at a number of factors, what was known to the officers at the time. then again, one of the biggest things i look at is what was the person's actions at the time the officer was using force. >> based upon your review of these materials and in light of the grand factor, what is your opinion as to the degree of force used by the defendant on george floyd on the date in question pretty. >> my opinion was it was excessive. ... ...
a restraint. >> yes. >> if i may show you exhibit 17, received into evidence. can you describe what it is you see here? >> i see an officer is me on the neck of mr. ford. >> is this a form of force? >> yes. >> exhibit 17. >> i'm sorry, that was supposed to be published. >> that's all right. if you could we publish exhibit 17. specifically what we are talking about in terms of the force you are reviewing, is that right?
>> yes. >> your opinion, it was excessive, that began around the time mr. floyd was on the ground? >> yes, sir. >> i'd like to focus your attention to the connor factor, he indicated one of the factors you consider is the severity of the offense being investigated, is our right? >> yes. >> was the severity of the investigation here? >> if i remember correctly, it was mr. floyd was accused of having a counterfeit 20-dollar bill. >> how does that particular offense, the severity of the offense relate to appropriateness of use of force used against him? >> typically in a normal situation the don't have someone uses a counterfeit bill, you
would not expect to use any type of force. >> when you look at this standard, the severity of the offense, is the label of the offense, misdemeanor or felony, is that important? >> in some cases, yes. >> what you find more important than the label of the offense? >> course of action. >> would be there to describe the counterfeit $20 bill as a low level offense? >> yes. >> in the connor world, that would justify lesser force, is that right? >> yes. >> a second factor is whether the person would pose an immediate threat, is that correct? >> yes. >> can you describe this, it's right? >> something what an officer feels the person is going to assault them or someone else.
>> identifying level of debt, is subjective, how is viewed? >> it could be subjective. >> how so? >> depending on the officer, their training and experience. >> we talk about this, distinguish between a threat and a risk. is there a difference between threat and risk? >> yes. >> explained that difference. >> police officers go into a situation, there is a risk factor just based on policing. i describe it as if you're going into a movie, you don't know what's going on and you try to figure out information as you are going through, as far as a threat is concerned, threat would be once someone is combative toward another person. >> what kind of factors can present a risk?
>> location, the call itself, call for service, while the actual crime was. >> what about the characteristics of the subject? what can pose a potential risk? >> could you we phrase? >> for example, size. >> in certain is, size could. >> in terms of risk. >> yes. >> a large subject necessarily constitute threat? >> not necessarily. >> why is that? >> it's based on the person's actions, not just their size and stature. >> in conducting use of force review or looking at objective reasonable use of force, is it appropriate to use force against the individual simply because of
their size? >> no. >> i'd like you to discuss the standard of resistance, whether the person is resisting or attempting to invade law enforcement officers. were you able to make an assessment in this case as to whether or not mr. floyd was offering resistance trying to evade law enforcement officers? >> yes. >> what was your assessment? >> initially when mr. floyd was being placed in the back seat of the vehicle, he was resisting officers so at that time the officers trying to have him comply with their commands and get him to the back of the vehicle. however, once he was placed in prone position on the ground, he
>> i'd ask you to make an assessment, the force used by law enforcement officers as it relates to whether or not mr. floyd was offering resistance. >> yes, sir. >> i believe you indicated mr. floyd was offering resistance initially outside the vehicle. >> yes, outside and inside. >> however, there was a time mr. floyd was taken outside the vehicle and placed on the ground, correct? >> yes. >> you indicated at that time after he was placed on the ground the officers, what should they have done? >> de-escalate the situation. >> what did they do instead based on what you saw? >> they continued force from the time they first put him on the ground.
>> i want to make sure when we are talking about the evaluation of use of force, you are evaluating the application of force from what perspective? >> first from the ground perspective as well as minneapolis police department. >> the standard in view of a reasonable police officer on the scene. >> yes. >> we are talking about the actions specifically of the defendant, at what time are you going to be determining or considering the factors available to the defendant when he was applying force? >> i'm sorry, could you rephrase? >> we know there were some events that happened prior to derek chauvin, the defendant's arrival on the scene, correct? >> yes. >> for the purposes of your review of reasonableness of the
defendant's actions, i what time you begin analysis? >> based on when he arrived and became involved. >> so based on your review of the materials, what were the circumstances on the ground for the defendant when he arrived? >> when he arrived, after they removed him out of the vehicle and placed him on the ground, do you mean mr. floyd's actions? >> what did the defendant see when he first arrived on scene? >> he saw officer lane and king in the backseat of the vehicle. >> what did the defendant do after he initially arrived? >> he went to assist officers attempting to place mr. floyd in the backseat of the vehicle. >> did you serve the various
officers at that moment, the defendant approaching the vehicle? >> yes. >> describe what you saw with the defendant approach the vehicle. >> they were attempting to place mr. floyd in the back seat of the vehicle, mr. floyd was actively resisting moving around, getting out of the vehicle, clearly he didn't want to be back there in the officers were trying to initially place him in the backseat of, grabbing the seatbelt and ultimately the decision was made to remove him from the vehicle. >> at the time mr. floyd was removed from the vehicle, when he was taken out of the vehicle and brought to the ground, do you recall what happened? how did the officers remove him from the vehicle?
>> they were pulling him from the driver side passenger door, the three sides and they were pulling on his legs and arms once they got him out of the vehicle, someone placed him on his knees. >> no now going back to where he was placed or attempted to be placed in the back of the vehicle, do you recall what mr. floyd was saying when the officers were trying to get him into the back of the vehicle? >> he was saying he couldn't breathe, he was claustrophobic and he didn't like being back there. >> did you see him or hear him indicate he had anxiety and was afraid? >> yes. >> what do you recall to avoid telling the officers? >> he indicated that he was
afraid, he had covid before and he couldn't breathe and he had anxiety and he was claustrophobic. >> based on those payments and the way mr. floyd was acting at the time, do you believe when the officers tried to get him into the vehicle in and of itself was reasonable action? >> it could be perceived as reasonable. >> were there all other alternatives they could have done. >> yes. >> wasn't necessary for the officers to use force at that particular time. >> overruled. >> not necessarily, no. >> what else could he have done? >> verbalized with him, it appeared early on --
>> i said overruled. >> please continue. >> early on officer kueng gained a rapport with mr. floyd early on so police practice would have been best to try to continue to verbalize with him because he gained rapport with him tried to get him to comply with commands by verbalization. >> but nonetheless, you believe in your opinion it was not unreasonable for the officers to attempt to place him into the back of the car? >> correct. >> i'd like to play segment for you what happens when they were getting him out of the car and initially placing him on the ground. at this time, i'd like to publish kueng body worn camera.
i'd like you to back it to 2018 and 46 seconds. [background noises] if you could play -- >> i can't breathe. i can't breathe. please, man. >> under arrest for forgery. >> please, man. >> thank you. >> on the ground. >> at that time they decided to bring mr. floyd out of the car, you can see on the video mr.
floyd was initially brought to his knees, is that right? >> yes. >> what did you hear mr. floyd say? >> i believe he said thank you. >> if you could continue. [background noises] [inaudible] >> if you could get him. >> i said please. i said please. >> stop moving. >> after he was initially on his knees and began to put him to the ground. >> yes. >> what position to the officers place is deployed when they brought him to the ground? >> prone position. >> what is the prone position?
>> you lay a person on their stomach. >> you can see as your floyd has already been handcuffed? >> yes. >> he is is now prone on the ground, handcuffed. >> yes. >> prior to him being in this position, did you see any aggressive action were interpreted as aggressive action on the part of mr. floyd? >> prior to prone position? >> prior to prone position. >> yes. >> what did you see? >> he kicked his leg. >> could you describe that kick and how it might be interpreted by reasonably police officer? >> the officers were still patrolling mr. floyd at this time and as they were trying to place him down in prone position, i believe one of the officers was trying to control his leg and he kicked their arms
away in attempt to possibly break free from the officers grasp. >> aside from that one kick, did you see anything else in your view of any of the material will body one cameras that would constitute active aggressive behavior by mr. floyd? >> no. >> that was approximately 2019 and about 35 seconds? >> approximately. >> when we evaluate the restraint. , this is about the time we are starting, right? right after he was placed on the ground, prone? >> yes. >> did you hear the defendant ask a question regarding restraints at that time?
>> yes. >> what was he asked about? >> i believe he asked for the hubble. >> what is a hovel? >> the hovel is a restraint used to find a person's legs in order to control them better stop them from harming an officer or breaking property, in most cases taking out windows of police vehicles. >> if i show you, the wind missed and the jury -- one moment, your honor. [background noises]
[background noises] exhibit 200. >> received, your honor. >> i'm going to ask you if you recognize what's shown in exhibit 200. >> yes. >> does not appear to be the use of public restraint person? >> yes. >> offer exhibit 200 and publish. >> 200 is received. >> if you could publish that. all right. is this the hovel restraint you were referring to? >> yes, sir.
>> one is the hovel restraint used? >> typically on someone actively aggressive toward police. >> the person you see in exhibit 200, the hovel has been applied, what position is the individual in after the hovel has been applied? >> site recovery position. >> what is the site recovery position? >> when you place someone on either the left or right side to breathe better. >> what is the purpose -- and you said it's to assist in being able to breathe better, is that right? >> yes. >> are you familiar with the term positional is 60 a? what does that refer to? >> yes, refers to when a person is in the prone position in and they have a difficult time breathing and it may cause death. >> moved to exhibit 200.
once the officers had mr. floyd on the ground in prone position and you can see he was handcuffed, i'd like to bring exhibit 255, exhibit 255 approximately where we left off the video, is that right? >> yes. >> once that's been done, the officers here after they had an assessment make? >> yes. >> whether or not it would continue to use the hovel will begin to use the hovel. >> rephrase. >> what assessment you have to make it this time? >> based on a request for the
hovel, you have to assess whether to continue to apply the hovel to mr. floyd. >> based on your review, did they? >> no, did they did not. >> what does that suggest of the need to restrain mr. floyd? >> based on my review, i believe they felt he was starting to comply and his aggression was starting to receive. >> was not consistent with your own observations of what you saw mr. floyd do as the video continues? >> yes. >> one moment. [silence]