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tv   Day 9 of Trial for Derek Chauvin Accused in Death of George Floyd  CSPAN  April 8, 2021 2:32pm-4:25pm EDT

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understanding what happened to mr. floyd and i calculate is to be 3814, that's shown by purple line sitting on top is the size of each breath and underneath -- >> just a reminder, you are still under oath. >> yes. [background noises] >> good afternoon. >> good afternoon. >> thank you for being here with us today. i'll take the chairs -- all right.
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i just want to review a few things with you, i don't think we will take too long but you are ultimately approached by the state of minnesota to the review of medical issues in this case, correct? >> correct. >> you volunteered to do this work at no cost? >> correct. >> you're not normally involved in criminal cases like this? >> correct. >> this is the first time you've ever been involved in a criminal case? >> correct. >> it was that reason he decided not to charge a fee. >> correct. >> when you are in other cases, what feet do you normally charge. >> my charge in our. >> what your hourly rate? do not 500 an hour. >> you agreed to waive your hourly wait for this? >> yes. >> he felt it was an important case. >> correct. >> in preparation for testimony
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today, he met with the state numerous times? correct. >> you have opportunity to review all medical information obtained in this case? >> yes. >> that would include mr. floyd previous medical history? >> correct. >> autopsy and attending toxicology reports prepared in this case? >> yes. >> as well as investigative materials, police reports and things of that nature? >> correct. >> correct me if i am wrong but you are not a sexologist? your specialty is in pulmonology, critical care and things of that nature? >> correct. >> you have an interest, an impressive resume relative to applied physiology? >> correct. >> you been honored extensively for your work in that regard? >> correct.
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>> you're not a minneapolis police officer? >> correct. >> there to take the training provided by minneapolis police department in terms of medical care comes nowhere close to your level of expertise? >> correct. >> you understand minneapolis police officers are not even emts? >> correct. >> a basic lifesaving certificate dealing with gunshots, chest seals, tourniquet and cpr? >> yes. >> so have had the opportunity to review body camera footage, correct? >> yes. >> i think you testified you watched these videos hundreds of times? >> correct. >> you watched them from all different angles? >> correct. >> you have the luxury pulling things down, going into slow motion, still framing various times? >> correct. >> so your analysis of this case comes after hundreds, if not
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thousands of hours of time spent looking at this. >> i don't know the total amount of time but potentially. >> so then ultimately based on the review of all of that, you repair report and provided that to the state of minnesota late january this year? >> january 27. >> after that, you had numerous meetings with the prosecution team? >> by xoom, yes. >> including january 30 this year? >> i don't know the date but that sounds correct. >> if i were to tell you the dates dates were january 30, march 3, march 9, march 17th, march 24, april 1 and 7, he wouldn't have reason to dispute me? >> i have no reason to dispute you we will you understand the meetings are provided to the defense? >> i do understand then spending
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substantial amount of time preparing the exhibits the jury was able to see today? >> correct. >> those were prepared by you or someone within your team? >> by me. >> you provided those to the prosecution in advance of today's testimony? >> correct. >> and you understand those were provided last night? >> i have no idea when but yes. >> so you have had a lot of time to prepare both yourself as well as the prosecution team in connection with the case, there to say? >> correct. >> you talked quite a bit about physics in your direct testimony, agreed? >> yes. >> you would agree that physics or the application of physical force is a constantly changing set of circumstances? >> i would agree with that. >> you would agree with me when you look at the concepts of
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physics, these are constantly changing, right? >> all the time. >> constantly, no second -- milliseconds and nano seconds so if i put this much weight for this much weight, all the formulas and variations will change second to second, millisecond to millisecond, nanosecond to nanosecond? >> i agree. >> similarly, biology the same way? >> yes. >> my heart beats, my lungs breathe, my brain sends millions of signals to my body at all times? >> correct. >> even faster than the speed of light? >> correct. >> millions of signals every nanosecond? >> yes. >> in your report you even discuss when you're talking about these instances, the physics or biology, what you're
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really talking about is a single nano second, all of these processes work at all times. >> correct, the way we calculate -- into one instant. >> right, you've taken this and boiled it down to a nano second. >> i wouldn't say that, it's obviously in my report, sequentially a chronology from the time the need is placed on the neck and then until your. >> your report talks about the sequential nature but when we talk about the biology and physics of this, these are working simultaneously, contemporaneously altogether?
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>> correct. >> an incredibly rapid fashion? >> yes. >> you would agree with me that as this was occurring, there was nobody measuring units of force placed on any particular position of any particular person at any particular moment? >> nobody was there measuring at the time, i agree. >> that's when you calculate, what you have to do, boil it down to what you would call the average? >> correct. >> so whenever we look at the concept of an average, there are things happening moments before, moments after, right? >> yes. >> forces will increase or decrease relative to the nano second of time? >> correct.
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>> ultimately when we talk about the biology of things, pathologists try to look at all intersections of all the things that occurred in a particular death investigation? >> they are not looking at anything to do physiology. >> understood but they are also looking at how other factors may contribute to the individual? they are basically looking -- >> it's a yes or no. >> yes partly. >> i'm looking beyond the nano factor, agreed? >> in terms of a pathologist, they are looking at the nano second. >> but they are taking into consideration things simply that extend beyond physiology? >> they are looking primarily at
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psychology. >> so what causes the heart to stop, what causes the lungs to cease to function. >> they make an inference based on toxicological time. >> right. considering the multitude of biological factors involved in the death of a person, right? the same as any physician looking at that. >> in terms of your review, you would agree the amount of time you spent looking at videos analyzing the videos from different perspectives and angles, it's far greater than the length of this? >> yes.
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>> probably to the times of thousands? >> i really don't know but substantially longer. >> right. ultimately, you conclude mr. floyd died for what we would call hypoxic death? >> low level of oxygen. >> low level of oxygen that caused damage to the brain which resulted in pulseless electrical activity, correct? >> not quite. >> how you frame it? >> low level of oxygen causing damage to the brain, the brain didn't cause it, low level of oxygen caused the damage to the brain, low level of oxygen caused. >> an example of how multiple processes are occurring simultaneously. >> is just one process, low level of oxygen. >> is having an effect on
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multiple -- the heart and the brain and the lungs. >> it's just too, the brain and the heart. >> the brain and the heart. i think you call it -- is it the nuchal ligament. >> yes. >> that's the space at the back of the neck is very hard? >> long but roughly the size of your hand, stick the hand on the back of your neck. >> right you said it's a very hard surface? >> yes. >> they can withstand a great amount of pressure? >> yes. >> so when we talk about the placement of the knee, there were periods of time where mr. chauvin to me was placed on that ligament based on your observation? >> yes. [inaudible]
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>> you had opportunity to review the autopsy? >> i did. >> you understand that there was no bruising either on the skin or under the skin surface noted by doctor? >> i am aware. >> you also are aware, he talked about the high both their next? >> yes. >> you are aware no injury was noted? >> i am aware. >> i found it interesting in your testimony and report talking about this notion of you can't speak or if you can speak -- if you can speak, you can read, right? describe this as a very dangerous proposition? describe this as causing a false sense of security to people, right? remark yes.
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>> in your report you write a paragraph how physicians often times have trouble with this, right? >> yes. >> so people similar to yourself have been too medical school? >> yes. >> so intelligent men and women who have graduated from college and gone on to medical school are engaged in the practice of medical school sometimes have problems with this? >> yes. >> a patient comes in and says they are having trouble breathing and often times a physician will not believe them, essentially. >> it's important to make sure we are talking about speech or difficulty in breathing because they are different. >> right, you write in your report that some doctors incorrectly consider patients to
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be hysterical. >> it's not proper -- overruled. [inaudible] >> you wrote some doctors incorrectly consider patients hysterical and imagine in nature which further aggregates patient distress. >> as i recall. >> you wrote you represent positions that you to understand the mental because of clinical. >> that's a different thing that, that type of syndrome is very different than difficulty in speech, they are apples and oranges. >> but if a position, somebody is coming in and they articulate to their position, i can't breeze and hyperventilation syndrome and physicians often times, as you indicate confuse this issue?
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>> correct. >> they blame the patient. >> they don't blame the patient but they misdiagnose. >> when we are talking about speaking in breathing simultaneously, different considerations is a minneapolis police lieutenant who trains police happens to have testified that's a common statement in the course of treatment or training of minneapolis police, you might take exception with that statement? >> i don't follow your question, it's very hard to hear. >> and i'm losing my voice, excuse me. if a minneapolis police officer, trying to talk closer to the mike.
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lieutenant who trains minneapolis police officers testified that frequently said, a person can talk, it means they can breathe, he would have a problem with that? >> they are able to breathe at that moment but a second later, they may be dead. >> and because dealing with any person a rapidly evolving situation back and change from second to second? >> yes. >> in terms of the calculations you've made, you would agree calculations are generally theoretical? >> they are based on direct measurements, extensive research. >> but you're making certain assumptions, are you not?
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>> very few assumptions. >> you assume the weight of mr. chauvin dimock i am aware so obviously i am aware there are two different weights given. >> and you assume the weight of the equipment. >> yes. >> and you have not actually physically measured the weight of the equipment of a police officer carrying? >> no, i took the measurements that are important. >> and you are not actually weighing what mr. chauvin wade may 25, 2020? >> no. >> in your measurements, you appear to be, at least from my understanding, which is limited, from my understanding, your measurements assumed equal weight distribution between right and left. >> yes, that's correct. >> so again, as we know as things change and evolve, weight
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is frequently redistributed? >> correct. >> in terms of eld -- am i saying it right? >> yes. >> you are facing those calculations on the presumption that a person is a healthy individual, right? >> it's not going to change really. >> but in terms of normal respiratory rate, some other factors you put into your analysis, it's premise upon a healthy individual. >> it's based on a 46-year-old person of a particular height. >> whose healthy. >> correct.
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>> so you would agree if biology can change rapidly, the biological, specific biological conditions of mr. chauvin and/or mr. floyd come into play? >> correct. >> the volumes or figures you assessed in connection with this case, they are conditioned upon him being a healthy individual. >> it varies in terms of the lungs, say for example, compliance will vary but lung volume is pretty robust. >> okay but other factors, like you said, was the first one? >> long compliance can vary from one person to another but different segments within the lung, they are not all monolithic. >> you've talked about one thing
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in terms of, this is a bit of a side, in terms of the prone position and pushing of the stomach into the lungs, the size of a person's stomach has some bearing on that? >> it does. >> a person like myself has a few extra inches, if i am prone, it's going to push further up into my lungs? >> correct. >> a person whose healthy, physical, muscular will have less of an impact? >> correct. >> but in terms of what we have learned about mr. floyd from his autopsy and medical records, we understand this to floyd had some heart disease? >> correct. >> we believe in some of his arteries number between 75 and 90% of his ventricular arteries? >> correct. >> that will affect blood flow
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in a person? been a correct. >> it body will have to work harder to get the blood flow. >> not really. >> how does that affect a person's respiratory. >> the coronary artery to eat -- the coronary artery is affecting and if it was contributing to shortness of breath, you'd expect he be complaining of chest pain and demonstrating rapid rate, we don't see either. >> we'll come back restoration -- i can't say it right. i'm taken by your accent. respiratory rate. >> compensator. [laughter] >> appreciate. >> 's territory great --
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respiratory rate. we understand mr. floyd, based on medical records has history of high blood pressure. >> correct. >> in terms of, we also understand mr. floyd previously was diagnosed with covid. >> correct. >> he may not have been symptomatic march 25 but it's fair to say a lot is unknown about the effects of covid on a person's lung long-term. >> not as much as it would appear because obviously we have a huge amount of information about long-term effects. >> and that can affect elasticity of the lungs? >> not elasticity, of its effect, it would be within the sensory receptors so it would
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not within this. >> okay but we learned about the toxicology -- excuse me, covid you testified that treatment of people with covid-19 includes leaving them in the prone position? >> right. >> those people who would be treated for covered prone position based on your calculations, you have a 24% decrease. >> this is people with covid during the time they have covid. >> so that is what you would expect, the same decrease. >> no, it's going to be different in somebody has say pneumonia, what's going to happen in the prone position will vary from one person to another as a result of the pneumonia, different than normal. >> okay so in that sense, every person is different.
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>> for certain. >> you calculated his respiratory rate to be 22? >> correct the matthew said that was within normal respiratory rates? >> yes. >> you would not describe him as hyperventilating? >> the word hyperventilation is open for misinterpretation, that is certainly not hyperventilation. >> it assists in the removal of carbon dioxide from the body? >> it is not that simple. >> in simplest terms -- >> in simplest terms, it gets rid of's carbon dioxide do not correct. >> frequently. >> in terms of the toxicology of mr. floyd, we did learn there were some controlled substances
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in his system? >> yes. >> we know there was, for example, nicotine, right? mr. floyd was a smoker? >> correct. >> smoking changes the lung function, agree? >> to some degree. >> we also learned -- i'm not suggesting all people who smoke have lung problems, right. >> 90% don't have any. >> go up to the microphone. >> i'm sorry. >> no problem. >> you focused your direct examination quite a bit in terms of fentanyl and it affects respiration rates. >> yes. >> you would agree generally that fentanyl is respiratory depressant? >> they can be. >> it is used in operating
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rooms? >> yes. >> is also used in management of chronic pain? >> correct. >> medically speaking, those are the only two reasons fentanyl would be prescribed? >> yes, probably. >> but you understand fentanyl has become more prolific. >> yes. >> you would agree generally there is a significant difference between fentanyl manufactured according to the united states, whatever rules apply, right? the pharmaceutical companies making different than the street dealers do? >> i would imagine so. >> so when a person is ingesting illicit street fentanyl, every time they take a fentanyl those,
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it is a different experience for the person? >> right but if it's affecting respiratory system, it will -- [inaudible] there's no way around it. they will not have an effect on respiratory. >> but the end result of fentanyl could include respiratory depression? >> right. ...
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curfew conditions where the physician can lawfully subscribe that in phentermine right. >> yes. >> but it's an exceedingly rare that that's actually done pretty. >> we would be able to subscribe it commonly for other types of persons printed. >> and i think the 80 hud, is that right. >> yes. >> so. [inaudible]. we also know that adrenaline will increase the heart rate, right. >> yes. >> and adrenaline can be put into the body in multiple ways, right. well, any things can cause a surge and adrenaline. >> yes. >> one of those things would be
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getting into a fight with someone. >> yes. >> for being afraid. >> and getting into a fight. >> and what was found and i understand that you call it the 10 percent tumor but in 10 percent of the tumor cases, that can cause an adrenaline surge. >> yes. [inaudible]. >> in terms of the use of fentanyl in the hospital setting, surgical setting, having become familiar with a what is called wooden chest center. >> yes. >> and can explain that pretty. >> in some patients you get an increase in the chest - >> so the lungs become less elastic you pretty so that would prevent a chest wall type rigidity, also decrease the
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performance of the lungs pretty. >> it would impede the ability of the lungs to expand. >> in your report, you wrote you would expect the peak respiratory depression to occur prevent and five minutes of ingestion. >> right. >> i become to learn that tablets were found or controlled substances were found in the back seat of the squad 320 pretty. >> i'm not sure with the status of the report is from that. >> so you've not been provided with any additional information since the time you prepared to report. >> i'm sure that is wrong, but i've been provided with a lot of thanks, i don't necessarily
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recall. >> will yesterday, we heard testimony from the state crime lab that they were in the backseat of the squad car. to punctually consumed bills, found in the back of squad pretty. >> objection. >> characterization of. [inaudible]. >> in his. >> you understand that pretty. >> no. i am not fully understanding. >> yesterday, the chemist from the state crime lab despite in this case. >> ruling sustained in the form of a hypothetical predict. >> i am sorry your honor, cannot hear you.
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[inaudible]. [inaudible]. [inaudible]. >> let me ask you in the form of a hypothetical question. if partially ingested bills that were determined to contain both
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fentanyl and meth amphetamine were found partially ingested in the backseat of the squad car and that those pills have come with the dna of the deceased individual person, meaning they took them. in those pills would've been in his mouth at about 218. 42018. is it fair to say that you would expect the peak fentanyl respiratory depression to be taken in about five minutes pretty. >> i was a would depend on how much of what was ingested. it won't tell you anything about whether it was ingested or some of it or anything. but, if there were any amount of it ingested, yes, the peak would be five minutes pretty. >> so if it happened at 2018
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work there about when the individual was in the back of the car, you would expect that peak respiratory depression it to be around 2013, right pretty. >> you are really confusing me. >> i think i can actually say it is been a long week. so, 2018 is the injection point and you would expect peak respiratory depression by 2023. >> correct. brady. >> that beats continuing afterwards right. >> yes. >> you've also described in your directed testimony, but you have interpreted to be in anoxic seizure right at 2024. >> correct., 202421.
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>> and that was what you saw in with the jury was reflected in from officer body camera from officer thomas lane. and it was the kick of the legs, right. and after that point you can see the officer thomas lane pull the leg down right and you can see it kick up again right. >> yes. >> sorry. >> i have a tendency to go fast. that is what you recognize and 46 years of being a pulmonologist and intensivist in your experience pretty. >> obviously there was additional information but the leg was moving. >> and would be reasonable for police officer to interpret that same behavior as resistance. >> objection your honor argued.
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>> you testified that the last breath of mr. george floyd was at 2025, 16, right. >> correct. >> prior to the .12 people who were there would've appeared to have been breathing, right rated. >> is hard for me to say pretty. >> prior to that point. it would be reasonable that he would appear to be breathing, right. >> yes. >> in fact he showed us a segment where you could or you were able to count his respiratory rates right. then you said at 2035 and zero six, sec. is when the first air was pumped back in. >> correct. >> and you understand that paramedics arrived at 2027 and
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45 seconds. >> yes. >> so the time between the paramedics arrived and mr. five got his first air, was roughly eight minutes, almost nine minutes. >> yes. >> and according to the timelines in the drive to the hospital was about five minutes. >> i am sorry, i do not catch that pretty. >> were you aware that the drive to the hospital is about five minutes predict. >> i was not aware of it. i have no reason to dispute it. >> between 2027 and 45 seconds, when emts first arrived, and the time they got him to have an error in his lungs, there was a result nine minutes. >> yes.
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>> your honor, i have nothing further. [inaudible]. >> doctor tobin, just a few questions for clarification sir. you had just been asked a lot of questions about science and medicine changing and constantly changing and evolving, by the nano second by the millisecond, you heard of this. >> yes. >> on the go to the time when mr. derek chauvin was on the back of the neck of mr. george floyd, did you see him get off of the back of mr. george floyd by the nanosecond, by the millisecond, by any seconds for the nine minutes and 29 seconds that you thought. >> no i did not pretty. >> if you look at that time and three seconds and you focus on,
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or if you consider all of the nano seconds milliseconds, and five minutes and three seconds, where was mr. derek chauvin, the vast majority of that time. >> he was on mr. george floyd's neck and on his back. >> and that constantly changed pretty. >> no. >> now you ask questions about what injuries were noted pretty. >> yes. >> and i think the reference was made to the trend that hypopharynx pretty does it make any difference you whatsoever pretty. >> no less whatsoever. i would not expect that pretty because the effect on the hypopharynx are not something that is going to remain at the time of an autopsy. the times changes that we see sing the somebody with sleep apnea, not tents something that you will see the following morning when you look at somebody. it is just not there. >> there is also a reference made from the absence of the
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neck and does that make any difference to you whatsoever. >> no because whenever i go to the chart i said in the heart of bentonite of the the bruising of my bottom when i leave. so would not expect anything in terms of that. so if you had somebody, it's not as if somebody is jabbing against it so you would not expect anything in the way the bruising to pretty. >> in the fact is there any correlation between the absence of bruising on an autopsy in the forces necessary to restrict breathing. >> no. the totally different because in terms of status forces and dynamic. >> what about low oxygen. if nobody has suffered or dies from low oxygen. >> yes. >> does that show up an autopsy. >> no. >> in the fact that it doesn't doesn't have any meaning to you. >> it is not because low oxygen is a function just like
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arrhythmia is a function upcoming doesn't leave a fingerprint on the autopsy. it is just there, something that happened. but it won't leave any fingerprint afterwards, you don't see it. summa but it doesn't mean the person didn't die from low oxygen pretty. >> no absolutely not. and you can take so that he was suffocating with a pillow, this very clear to you after you've suffocated that the person is dead from the peloponnesian war not going to see the effects of low oxygen read. >> now you are asked quite a few questions about mr. george floyd's pre-existing health conditions and you cited a number of those. and do any of those conditions have anything to do for the cause of mr. george floyd's death in your professional vignette. whatsoever pretty. >> none, whatsoever. >> on the cause of those conditions a manner pretty. >> the cause of death is a low level of oxygen. it was because the brain damage
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and the heart to stop. >> you are also asked questions about substance abuse and mr. floyd's it system. and i think that you were asked questions about nicotine, remember that pretty. >> yes. >> he didn't die from taking delete printed you are asked questions about fentanyl and meth pretty any evidence that he died from meth pretty. >> no, none pretty. >> u.s. questions about whether he had ingested any fentanyl within five minutes of his time of death pretty. >> yes. >> i think you explain to that us that if somebody is suffering from a fentanyl overdose, you would see a depression in the respiratory system. >> yes. >> and depression been some repression in the rate of ability to breathe. >> correct. >> did you see any repression whatsoever in mr. george floyd. >> absolutely not. it was normal pretty. >> inhabitants than of any
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fentanyl and is system, depressed is bringing, it in any way whatsoever pretty. >> no. and further, carbonite and cut dioxide pretty. >> thank you doctor tobin, no further questions. >> two quick questions pretty in terms of the carbon dioxide level, you testified that it was at 896. >> ninety-seven predict. >> you testified that the carbon dioxide was at a 96. >> it was 89 pretty. >> and i was also measured at 102 pretty. >> they are teary is the one that you need to look at. >> and in terms of the ingestion of that just generally speaking, fentanyl and also because - >> it would have to be due to
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respiratory depression pretty. >> fentanyl can also cause a death as a result of low oxygen pretty. [inaudible]. >> fair enough, thank you. [inaudible]. >> mr. nelson run a fentanyl could be at a cause of death factor pretty you're familiar with the way the people die from fentanyl. >> yes. >> today or do they not go into a, before the die from a fentanyl overdose. a. >> yes they would. >> and was george floyd ever in a coma. >> no. >> thank you doctor tobin. >> doctor thank you so much. >> thank you. >> let's take a five minute break. [inaudible].
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[inaudible]. [inaudible]. [inaudible]. >> the pulmonologist doctor tobin in concluding his testimony expected to be the first of a number of medical witnesses here on the five day the trial former minneapolis police officer, derek chauvin. charge and they may 25th 2020, death of george floyd.
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another witness lined up next and there taking a five minute break or so. officer derek chauvin charge and three counts of second-degree murder, third-degree murder and manslaughter. and again, this is five minute break or so in the proceedings in a reminder all of our viewers, we are re- airing tonight here at 8:00 o'clock at "c-span2" and as always, all of our previous coverage available at cspan.org. >> i just a reminder that you are under oath. [inaudible]. >> doctor, look at exhibit 943 focusing on the restraint.
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you are focused on the first five minutes and three seconds in particular that mr. derek chauvin was applying his weight to mr. george floyd's neck. >> correct. >> and why was a time period, after the first five minutes and three seconds, less significant to you pretty. >> because at that point, where the extended his leg, that you see there that is happening at the point we see that happening, is at 2421. that is when he had suffered brain injury and we see and we can tell from the movements of his leg, that the level of oxygen in his brain is caused what we call the seizure type of activity. the just medical terms but basically, it means that he is kicked out his leg and it takes sentient form, that he is
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straightened out as like. and that is something that we see as conditions in patients when they suffer brain injury as a result of a low level of oxygen. >> will talk about that in a moment doctor tobin but is insignificant to you whether mre off of mr. george floyd's neck after george floyd was unconscious pretty. >> now predict the movement happened around a different time but obviously, the key thing is that everything up to the time that we see the hypoxic, the brain injury that is occurring. when the officer derek chauvin moved his knee after that. it's really not going to have any impact on this case. >> which help the ladies gentlemen of the jury understand that if mr. derek chauvin is applying pressure on the side of the neck as we see here in
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exhibit 943, is a translate into narrowing of the hypopharynx pretty. >> again it will depend on what is the orientation of officer derek chauvin body and the orientation of the leg and then also in particular into what is the orientation of mr. george floyd and where exactly is the orientation of george floyd's head because if it's the ligament on the under the knee, the officer derek chauvin is going at various compression of hypopharynx and then as a moves to the side, and an officer derek chauvin's weight is coming down on the side of mr. george floyd neck, and you have a huge compression of the hypopharynx. >> and again looking at exhibit high for three focusing on the first five minutes. was knee overarching light on the side or was the back.
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>> for the first five minutes, of the left knee is on the neck virtually all of the time in the right knee by my calculation, the right knee is on his back 5e reason that i can't say it's on 100 percent is because most of that other time, i don't get a good view of the camera has moved around. his body camera so i can't see it right before that period of time, crucial period of time the five minutes and three seconds, i can see officer derek chauvin nissan is back back for over 57 percent of the time. >> let's talk about the third mechanism, the prone position. with effective mr. george floyd been placed in the prone position, also had an impact on the narrowing of the hypopharynx
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pretty. >> yes, facing him on the prone position has several different effects but particularly, it also causes narrowing of the hypopharynx among other things that the prone position to test. is a concept of physiology referred to as long - what is that and what does it refer to pretty. >> that is just the way that week long specialist, we measure how the size of the long in the different locations and we quantify out in different areas and what level of the long areas whether it is different segments of the loan behaving in different ways. >> do you have an illustration that you brought to help us better understand pretty. >> yes, i have read. >> i am going to show you this marker exhibit 929 and ask you to identify it.
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>> yes identified 929. this is, it shows you long function and it shows you hypopharynx. >> in his and it an accurate illustration of nonfunctioning. >> yes it is. >> your honor, i also wanted give exhibit 929. >> 929 is received. >> if we could start at the beginning. >> do i go ahead. okay. >> let's not talk over each other, were getting into that bad habit. so ask the question again. >> thank you rated i'm just going to ask you doctor tobin if you would explain to us what we see in exhibit 929. >> we are looking here at the lungs inside of the chest. the chest is in. we see the long inside and
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around this space. and we are saying as the, you are looking at the breath going in and out and it generates the pen six volume, shown as a waveform down at the bottom and so that is what happens in somebody with what would regularly be. this is tidal volume. >> severe you can seek the justice expanding on the front, using the action of the chest. and then with each breath, you can see air going into the long and that produces the tidal volume breath. so this is the size. and then on exhalation, going back up. >> dr. tobin, is there . [inaudible].
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[inaudible]. [inaudible]. >> do swear or affirm testimony that you're about . [inaudible]. >> i do. [inaudible]. >> if you wouldn't mind removing your mask for testimony. and let's begin by having you speak your full name and spelling each of your names. >> my name is daniel eisen schmidt. >> thank you your honor. good afternoon sir. >> good afternoon pretty. >> what you are freighted. >> mss labs.
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>> in pennsylvania, how long have you been when this lab pretty. >> since 2011. >> when you do there pretty. >> i'm a toxicologist. >> did you have any other lab experience before joining them. >> yes, i did. prior to joining them from 1934 - 2011, i was chief toxicologist for wayne county, medical examiner's office and before that i was at medical labs and director of toxicology and prior to that, from 1982 - 1991, i was at maryland medical labs in baltimore, maryland and during the period also working sometime during i think it was 1986, as medical examiner's office in baltimore, as well. so adding this to your educational background could you describe to the jury.
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>> have a bachelors degree in biology from the university in new york and that was obtained in 1982. and i have a masters degree in pathology the concentration for in toxicology and that's the university of maryland, baltimore that was in 191986. and though my phd was at the university of maryland, baltimore in toxicology in 1991. >> you have any specialized certifications. >> and board certified as a fellow at the american board of forensics pretty. >> and that the requirements are, they change of the years but for the fellow requirement, you can apply to board after three years after you had your phd. examine your conditionals to see that your active in the field of forensic toxicology and if you
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have the right references in your academia near field they will allow you to sit for the examination predict if you path the examination, the fourth of so on for your final certification and after that, you have to do continuing education each year. and obtain a minimum number of continuing education credits and then every five years, we have to have or reapply to the board for accreditation pretty. >> have you measured hundred satisfied those credits successfully and are you up-to-date with all of the continuing education requirements as well. >> yes. >> i'm going to get back to your roll as a forensic toxicologist, can you describe your day today job duties as a forensic toxicologist at your lab you're currently at pretty. >> semi primarily responsibility is to do case review and what that means as when toxicology tests are performed at this lab, particularly ones that require different kind of test to be
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done. they wind up being reviewed by toxicologist or scientist to look at them in the context at all of that testing is done. individual tests are reviewed by the analyst in the laboratory and secretary ability as well but the final review come to toxicologist or scientist that looks at everything in the context of the entire case pretty. >> in that capacity come as a part of your job duties to offer reports and sign off on all that testing pretty. >> yes. >> how any cases have you reviewed approximately. >> i review about seven - 8000 cases per year. >> in terms of the work comes in to this lab, are there a variety of agencies that present samples for testing pretty. >> yes from medical examiners and corners. and from police agencies, for dui cases and we also get a lot
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of clinical samples from hospitals and referral operatories. >> so in that capacity does mss receive postmortem or death related samples as well as limitations pretty. >> yes we do. >> and as a lab, approximate how any tests or samples are done each day pretty. >> about 12 - 1300. >> when you say requisitions pretty. >> i would mean the testing or multiple samples. >> thousands of tests that year pretty. >> yes thousands of tests a day. >> so tens of thousands of test a year. all right, is mss, a license and accredited lab pretty. >> it is. >> and also national accreditations as well pretty. >> national and state
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accreditations. >> in this particular case, did mss labs received some samples for testing from a the medical examiner's office elated to george floyd rated. >> we did. >> and were there a number of different samples that were received. >> graham v. connor. >> what were the samples ultimately tested by mss labs. >> we tested the samples that were requested by medical camp teeth examiner to be tested so we attested examples that were lame labeled as possible blood and also tested on urine that was collected at the autopsy. >> in terms of the testing that was performed at this lab, where those test pursuant to standard operating procedures at the lab. in the process was followed, all of those tests. >> yes. >> getting to the results from that testing, one for the notable findings from the testing pretty. >> most notable testings was the
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presence of fentanyl and 11 nanograms of - and the the breakdown product of fentanyl, and concentration of 5.6 nanograms per liter and in addition we found with an editing and 19 - >> each of the substances, 15180 you have indicated that these were the results from the hospital in this case is that right pretty. >> that is right pretty. >> so let's start with methamphetamine, what is it. >> so methamphetamine is a central nervous system stimulant. it can actually be described, it really is pretty can be described as under the name of oxen and used for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and obesity and results in experimental use for the treatment of - and between 2016 and 2018, there was about 10000
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subscriptions in the u.s. written for it each year. >> so can methamphetamine be both a street-level recreational drug also prescription drug printed. >> it can. >> with respect to the results of the 19 milligrams that you found of methamphetamine, what significance if any is there to that amount pretty. >> that is actually approximately the amount that you would find the blood somebody that was given a single-dose of methamphetamine that was subscribed to them. >> so when you say they subscribe to the subscription drug form in which methamphetamine can be available, the results would be consistent with the subscription dose is that right. >> yes. >> would that be considered a low level of myth and that the main pretty. >> yes, very low pretty. >> and you also talked about the fentanyl results of the 11 anagrams per milliliter. first, what is fentanyl. >> so fentanyl is an opioid and
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- it is similar to morphine, but much more potent than morphine. it can be used to treat pain and also an adjunct use in surgery for anesthesia. >> and you talked about opioids, can you describe within hopefully i'd is pretty. >> so, opioid actually include both natural, semi synthetic and synthetic drugs that act on receptor which they act. oh we hates our natural products that are found which is morphine encoding. so opiate or opioids have - >> what is an example of an opioid. >> so fentanyl is an example of opioid pretty. >> but oxycodone also be an
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opioid. >> yes it would. >> and you also talk about similarities between the two pretty and you mentioned morphine as an opioid. >> yes. >> is that heroin pretty. >> so heroin is actually made from more pain moment heroin breaks down, breakdown two metabolite and then it eventually goes to forming pretty. >> so heroin breakdown into morphine and - morphine pretty do what toyota entered opioids have similar effects pretty. >> yes pretty. >> and getting back to fentanyl level in this case, you mentioned it it was 11 milligrams per liter, can the levels vary widely depending on and why would debbie pretty. >> because of tolerance. >> can you explain how an individual drug tolerance might affect the impact in particular drug like an opioid or fentanyl
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might have printed. >> so the person becomes tolerant to a drug, and they would have more and more of the drug to get the desired effect so, with chronic use the same feeling that you would in a concentration of fentanyl, you need to take more to get that effect pretty. >> so somebody is regularly using opioids or opioids, then individual within development tolerant. >> yes. >> you also talked about another drug, can you describe what ideas predict. >> so so in the body gradually eliminates fentanyl, it breaks it down from fentanyl to more fentanyl and that's a gradual process that occurs over time. it is one of the ways that the body eliminates fentanyl. >> indicated that the mound of this and the hospital was the case of 5.6. is that right pretty. >> yes. >> what is significant about
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that amount of fentanyl. >> while it shows that some of the fentanyl was metabolized to more fentanyl and also could mean it was pre-existing more fentanyl with additional document on top of that. but basically showed that when we see very recent deaths with fentanyl, we frequently see fentanyl with no more fentanyl whatsoever because after a very acute intoxication, the body does not have time to break it down. >> so can you describe and you see in overdose typical you may not see it. >> correct. >> in addition to those findings from the hospital lab, where there in the findings as included in your report. >> there was an incident the findings i believe there was coding which had been smoking, there was caffeine, there were evidence of prior marijuana use.
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i would have to look at the report pretty. >> to refresh your recollection. we could put on the screen just for the witnesses recollection exhibit 624. and then if you could positive findings portion. referring to your report now, describe the other findings with respect to this case. >> so the additional finding was a compound app, that is actually a precursor to fentanyl manufacturing but it is also a - fentanyl, not probably mostly inactive but it was measured as part of an additional testing was requested by the county medical examiner. in urine findings, we had positive findings of abba noise
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and fentanyl from those not confirmed because they weren't in the blood. it followed that and then we also had a findings for opioids in the year and we were asked to confirm those and we found it concentration of morphine in the red of 86 nanograms per liter. >> sorry you are saying that you will found morphine in the urine. is that right pretty. >> correct. >> was a found in the blood. >> no, it was not. >> and can a finding of morphine in the urine be indicative of a prior use in advance of the time of death. >> yes, i can. you can see morphine in urine for several days. depending on the dose and prior use pattern. >> and again, said because it shows up in urine longer than in the blood prayed. >> yes. >> so you tested both the
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hospital blood in the urine in kenya describe the findings in the urine with morphine and you're also discussing it the key findings in the hospital blood but they effect to the other findings in your part, can you summarize with the work and if they were significant at all. >> you mentioned campaign, which is present in any of us. encoding which is present in the metabolite of nicotine, from smoking. and then kevin abba noise, thc, 2.9 nanograms per later in his breakdown products of hydroxy and thc in 1.2. and in the inactive carboxy thc 42. >> and when it comes to the thc findings, relating to canada but noise, when impact is that have pretty. >> are doing turbid that but given the nature of the samples,
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and also what happens with them because they go into the back so they can be released slowly over time. anything like cpr could potentially release thc from the fatso and doesn't really mean a whole lot other than it was used at some point in time pretty. >> so i can made in the system and be detected for some time. >> yes. >> so we can take the down thank you. as part of your testing process at the lab, with their also some metabolite or other substances that were detected as part of the testing buffalo the lab reporting limits pretty. >> we did find substances that were below the threshold of two report. and that is why they're not on the report. they are part of the data package that was requested and one can see those there pretty.
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>> do you keep those litigation packages with that date as part of your standard operating procedures of the court business at ms as bat labs pretty. >> all of the data in the litigation packages actually pulled from that data on request but yes. >> so as part of the testing of the lab testing of the samples in this case, i would like to ask about the testing process for methamphetamine and whether there were findings of amphetamines unit. >> so when we test positive for methamphetamines, at the - and anything that is positive about 81300 certain professional by that procedure is been confirmed by an alternate procedure. in this case methamphetamine is positive in the screen and then we ran the confirmation test for amphetamines. in particular the test consisted of ten compounds. but were only interested in the
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larger compounds that were actually confirming in this case. so in this case we did check for kevin for the main and because of catalyzing, there was evidence of impediments but below the reporting limit so it was parted. >> and you recorded that. and does that mean that the body breaks down methamphetamine into and can mean overtime pretty. >> yes. >> in addition to confirming the presence of amphetamines, was there also an indication an on initial testing for morphine. >> there was an indication on the time-of-flight screen but because it was below the reporting limits, it was not confirmed nearly hundred barely an education pretty. >> that just means it didn't go through that second process. >> yes. >> typically describe for opioid
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therapy for people that are going through opioid treatment. >> and other components of it, also in the lockdown pretty and it's an essentially a generic narcan. >> yes. >> getting back to the blood communicated that was hospital blood. correct. >> what is significant for that pretty. >> will hospital blood if it is more rep. of what is actually circulating in the body prior to the time of death. after death, there are changes that occur was hard concentration that particularly an essential blood collected from heart. that's a post more than distribution with the drugs go from areas of higher concentration to lesser concentrations. that wasn't an issue, such as
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blood but it can still occur. ideally you would try to get a sample is close to the time of death as possible. >> were some samples taken after death. can there be some postmortem redistribution. >> i think that is possible parted it is a lot we don't know is certainly is possible and intends to increase concentrations rated. >> when you say increased conservation is having the level or higher than it actually was at the time of death. >> correct. >> what about how wallace's pretty. >> that his breakdown of the red blood cell. >> and did that have any impact on the testing in this case. >> no, that would have impact on certain clinical chemistry tests like potassium. the store the red blood cells
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when you analyze the blood sample for drugs, penalizing the whole sample. it would have no effect. >> so you mentioned that the lab received samples the day and thousands of samples a year, you compile data from the year 2020 with respect to conventional cases methamphetamine cases with us help you conceptualize the results in this case. >> sure. >> for demonstrative purposes, exhibit 920. [inaudible].
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[inaudible]. >> what was the number again. >> i'm 20. >> if we could publish. [inaudible]. >> thank you, your honor. doctor, i'm going to have you describe what is shown on the screen. >> as of right now, we are looking at what happened when the levels metabolize over time. so gradually, the amount of fentanyl start to increase.
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[inaudible]. >> and that is what would happen is it metabolizes fentanyl. >> correct. >> can you describe what is shown here pretty. >> so this is data from the labs from the year 2000. we look at the fentanyl concentrations in postmortem cases specifically in those and only those, that were collected in non- peripheral blood for the reasons that i mentioned before, cardiac blood can have a significant postmortem distribution so we wanted to have her look at samples at a minimal amount of that. >> this was in the year 2000. with this from 2020 pretty. >> that was my mistake, it is 2020. this was the year 2020 printed we had 19100 - cases that we looked at and in studies postmortem cases, the mean concentration or average is 16.d
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in the median concentration was ten, median being about 50 percent above and 50 percent below. >> and with respect to the peripheral blood you've indicated that you chose the samples that would have minimal post morning distributions. why is that. >> because the sample that you have from the hospital blood he is probably going to have less issues of post morning redistribution had invented postmortem blood. >> and in these cases that are represented postmortem cases, these cases that you would be getting from offices of the coroner's office pretty. >> correct. >> where they are deceased or dead. >> correct. and also for the concentrations, those were 6.01, the means the median data
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2.2 nanograms per meal the ability to predict. >> just a clarify. with respect to these cases, the average levels of fentanyl was 15.8 nanograms the average level for 6.01 handicraft per milliliter. >> correct. >> what is shown here printed. >> so this slide shows postmortem cases and again for the year 2020. so out of those 90185 cases we had 15455 that included fictional and more fentanyl but there was 3,071,204 cases with no more fentanyl. there were exceptions for that for reasons of testing purposes. but those ones that were only fentanyl. a. >> so the site indicates there was a significant number of this thousand 71204 cases where there was fentanyl but no more
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fentanyl et al. >> next slide please predict. >> so this is switching gears, we are looking at the duis driving under the influence hotel concentrations that we founded in 2020. so these are blood samples there sent to the labs needed for the people that were suspected of driving under the influence of drugs. and also potential of the reasons the way they were driving. in this case we tested 2345 cases that were individuals that were alive. and other drugs may be present but this was specifically looking at fentanyl winning concentration of 9.5 nanograms per milliliter 5.3 and the norfentanayl of 5.42 in the medium of 2.2 pretty. >> just to clarify, please 2345
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cases, those individuals were alive is that right pretty. >> correct. >> and the average fentanyl levels were 5.9. >> yes. >> and the average norfentanayl is 5.4. >> yes pretty. >> next slide please. >> so this is just a break it down of the fentanyl concentrations we found it in the drivers were alive read so almost the majority of them were under 5 nanograms of fentanyl. we had another 26.3 percent between 5.1 and 10 nanograms per milliliter in the next set of data was led to her sitting cases which were between 11 and 15 nanograms. so that would be the same. that mr. floyd's level of 11 nanograms. that we had quite a few cases
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that were even greater than that. we had about a hundred and nine between 16 and 20. anyone between 21 and 26 and then we actually have 53 cases in subjects where it was greater than 50 nanograms per milliliter. >> comparing mr. floyd's level to the driving population, the individuals were alive, his level was within a quarter of the pie the dui cases the lab received pretty. >> will be right in their grade yes. >> and you indicated that those levels for drivers were found in 53 cases higher than 60 nanograms per milliliter. as of those individuals were alive advantage when driving at the time pretty. >> yes.
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>> so this is basically concentration and samples blood samples that were submitted by mr. tran five and we found fentanyl and 11 nanograms milliliter. >> next slide please. >> so this slide shows what the ratio of the parent drug is an 11 grams divided by 5.6 for the >> subdues the show in which the way that you would calculate it. next slide please. let's start on this slide pretty. >> so the slide shows the ratios of fentanyl levels between nine
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and 13 nanograms per milliliter so that range was chosen because mr. floyd concentration was 11 nanograms per liter and when we do driving under the influence work, we actually assign an uncertainty of measurement to that result. so if the driver had an 11 met nanograms present we would report that is 11 nanograms plus or minus 2 nanograms per milliliter. so i did this to see what kind of ratios do we see between postmortem in dui cases in the fentanyl levels is between nine and 13, the kind of ratios that we see. and we can see in the postmortem cases, mean ratio of fentanyl and norfentanyl was 9.05 with a median of .8. versus the dui population remained was 3.2 and 2.24. >> just to clarify, in the bar
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that shows the postmortem cases, without 3088 cases that you look at between the range of nine - 13 milliliters. >> yes. between nine and 13 pretty. >> the ratio was .05 on average is that right pretty. >> correct. >> with respect to the dui cases, cases between the range of nine and 13 are milliliter, the right. >> correct. >> so the average ratio is 3.20 rated. >> yes. >> how does mr. floyd's ratio compared to that data set rated. >> so george floyd's ratio is roughly just a little bit below the median ratio in dui so postmortem cases we know that are fentanyl concentrations, would be much higher than the norfentanyl because of the frequent, these are deaths due to fentanyl. other drugs may be present they can be other reasons for that debt, doesn't say this is only
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intoxication but just looking at it as a whole, large amount of data is what we observed. we know with the dui population, they are alive but of the drugs may be present as well. so it's really just sort of looking at how things look differently in the postmortem population predict. >> and this site also shows that mr. george floyd's a ratio with the average and even below the median for that found in the dui cases. >> yes. >> next slide please. >> so this slide is actually sort of a summary of a previous slide but it basically shows the relationship between fentanyl and norfentanyl and between postmortem, the dui cases and mr. george floyd freighted. >> and it shows how the norfentanyl levels increases over time over the fentanyl levels. >> and metabolizes.
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>> next slide please. you also look at data with respect to methamphetamines for 2020 and the meth lab. and what is shown in the slide as of right now predict. >> this slide shows concentration of methamphetamines found in mr. george floyd's hospital sample, it was 19 grams per milliliter. and as we talked about earlier, and had me was below the reporting limits. so it was not reported. ... ... we had 3271 cases that had methamphetamine driving under the influence.
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2009, 75 included amphetamine 296 were methamphetamine. >> we are talking about the dui population, individuals 3271, individuals who are alive. >> next slide. >> this is a further breakdown of what we see in methamphetamine cases. the concentration and all dui cases was 378 of methamphetamine. median was 240 nanograms a milliliter and in the five to 25 range was five, being the lowest, we had 192 between five to 20 milligrams a year which is in the range of mr. ford's
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methamphetamine. >> mr. place level was 19 nanograms a millimeter? >> yes, it says on the bottom and again 94% dui cases mental contrition. >> mr. .9%. >> correct. >> next slide. what is shown? >> this is a further breakdown of what methamphetamine concentrations we've observed in drivers in the past 2020 and again other drugs that may be present in this case we had 196 cases between five and 20, 360350. 571 between 101 to 200. 578 between 501 and 1000 and an additional 215 cases
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methamphetamine was great. >> again, you had to 15 cases where the number was greater than 1000. >> correct. >> the biggest piece, 30.9% cases were between 201 and 500 grams a milliliter. >> yes. >> mr. flights level was exceptionally low? >> in relationship to the dui, yes. >> nothing further, your honor. [background noises] [inaudible]
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are right, it's a little unusual for you to testify in a death case, is it not? >> not terribly, i do work with medical examiners specifically are the ones to testify cause of death, usually i'm involved in a death case, it's usually growth resulting in death. >> so you work in a laboratory that works with medical examiners from your own country? >> correct. >> you perform these services in a variety of different contexts? do not just. >> so you testify some are clinical in nature, some are law enforcement in nature, some are death related? >> correct.
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>> at the time you became involved in this case, you are obviously aware of the significance. >> yes. >> your laboratory goes through an accreditation process? >> we do. >> part of the accreditation process is to establish standards and reporting? >> yes. >> so the reason i laboratory will have the threshold is to be consistent in how toxicology is reported to various ways? >> correct. >> one of those accreditation standards is to have and set this of a particular chemical component below the threshold, he would suggest it on the report?
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you are saying not there are instances where medical examiner if something was present at the lower threshold and depending on what the situation is, it could be reported as such, not common practice. in this case from. >> it is not common practice to report things that are below are chemicals below the threshold because it's contrary to the accreditation standards, agree? >> it does depend on the situation but by and large, if there is a reason we have cutoffs, we go below those, it's basically not something we would typically do. >> so an analyst comes in hypothetically and when you see certain markers have an indication thing, that would be
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because of the accreditation. >> i'm not quite sure i understand hypothetically comes in and a question is presented about the presence of a particular substance, the substance was below the threshold -- >> your honor. [inaudible] >> it's a hypothetical. the analyst acknowledge the possibility that would hypothetically be because of the threshold rules rex. >> i really can't speak about the crime lab because i don't
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work in the area so to me limited to toxicology and analysis blood or urine. >> so in other words, the reason we have these thresholds is the we set the rules, right reasons the thresholds were established has to do with validation will. thresholds are not set because of any it's what you have to use as a threshold, laboratory establishes those in right in accordance with validation. >> sop being standard operating procedures so if the laboratory states this standard and says here is the standard and then does something or reports something against that standard, that would be a violation
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standard operating practice? >> if it were reported without affirmation, yes. >> a few follow-up questions to your testimony, he was met with or spoken with members of the prosecution team several times? >> yes. >> including february 26, march 5, march 12, april 5 and april 6? >> that sounds right, i don't know exact date. >> understood. >> he wouldn't disagree if i told you those dates? >> correct. >> summaries of your conversations. >> correct. >> onto make sure i understand the difference between fentanyl and north. you would agree fentanyl is the active ingredient when you report the fentanyl concentration, the active
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ingredient? when a person and just essentially any substance, controlled substance, doesn't have to be an illegal drug, the body metabolizes that? >> correct. >> the body eliminates that? >> yes. >> through natural processes of the body. >> yes. >> the elimination of the substance results in a metabolite? >> yes. >> fentanyl, being the active ingredient, nor federal is the top? >> correct. >> in this particular case you discovered fentanyl concentration of 11 nanograms a milliliter? >> yes. >> a level of 5.6. >> yes. >> you testified on direct examination that that could be one of two scenarios occurring?
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>> yes. >> one scenario is that a person took a certain amount of a -- fentanyl and enough time has passed to eliminate that, correct? will break it down into a metabolite. >> that is one. >> the other scenario is someone took some, the initial dose began to break down and the person took more so the active ingredient there but had not yet broken down, right? >> correct. >> so it either -- you described i think as an acute ingestion? or non- acute ingestion when you have fentanyl, fentanyl will break down more fentanyl but still take more fentanyl so you can take it while the first fentanyl was breaking down?
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>> correct. >> put into context of people who may consume alcohol, i have a beer, my alcohol concentration will rise to a certain level, right? based on the alcohol concentration, agreed? >> yes. >> my body immediately decrease eliminate alcohol. >> correct. >> i have a second fear, i add more alcohol was in my blood alcohol concentration to rise, correct? >> yes. >> that's similar with all substances including fentanyl? >> in general, yes. alcohol at a fixed rate over time, there's only so much you can eliminate, some drugs are a little. >> some may be faster, some may be longer. when you describe the results in this particular case, you're talking about -- i'll straighten
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that out, sorry. based on a strict interpretation of test results, there's no way to determine at what time in a particular amount of fentanyl was adjusted, agreed? >> i would agree. >> fentanyl, being a toxicologist is a lawfully manufactured controlled substance in the united states. >> it can be described backpack, lollipop, they can put it in lollipops. >> the fentanyl contain in a patch or lollipop, by an anesthesiologist is in a controlled manner? >> yes. >> when we are talking about illicit drugs that include fentanyl, you have no way of knowing what the particular fentanyl concentration is filled
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to fill? >> yes. >> every single pill you take becomes a unique experience for the person, right? >> that's true. >> regardless whether you have tolerance or non- tolerance, any single incident can cause adverse reaction? >> for sure, if somebody had a pill ten times fentanyl that another, then yes. >> and you have no idea? because they are not manufactured in a controlled environment. >> yes, sir. >> in terms of to understand there were some pills on the floor of the squad car? >> that is my understanding, yes. >> the pills were tested containing the dna of george floyd? >> i heard that, yes.
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>> presumably the pills were not in there prior to mr. floyd being in the squad car, right? >> i assume not, yes. >> so you understand they were tested, appeared to be partially ingested or dissolved? >> okay. >> so there would be evidence of acute ingestion of fentanyl and/or methamphetamine at the time mr. floyd was in the backseat of the squad car? [inaudible] >> sustained. >> are you familiar with the term hooping?
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[inaudible] >> answer if you know. >> i don't. >> in terms of your slideshow, i don't have the electronic copy of it, some follow-up questions, you reviewed in 2020 a total of 19185 fatal overdose cases, right? >> they are not necessarily fatal overdoses, they were cases from medical examiners we found fentanyl in their blood sample but they could happen homicide or other drugs involved so they were just random fentanyl concentrations. >> catch you.
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>> -- somebody may have been shot and killed as a result of a gunshot but as a result of the autopsy process, they collected the blood analyzed the blood as part of the normal autopsy process? >> correct. >> the cause or manner of death in a gunshot wound, homicide, we still look at the blood. >> is. >> a total of 19185, right? >> correct. >> when the slide says 19185 fatal overdose cases, you are suggesting it's misleading because you're suggesting a fatal overdose case? >> i didn't get said that that was something i corrected the other day and said it's not
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correct. >> okay. >> i apologize, he says fatal overdose cases, that is not correct. [silence] [silence]
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>> we are going to take a 20 minute recess, which going to do a little work in the break but 20 minutes. [silence] [silence] [silence]
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[silence] >> any light to shed on this? >> what's going on. >> i received stamp 49606 and apparently i printed it and started working on my preparation and apparently i received an updated copy of this presentation and its 49623 so
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it's like 17 page later when trying to verify when i received it because i was using this in preparation of this was all last night. >> was all provided, i'm not sure if it's the same batch that went out but obviously the witness made updates, an updated slide for the jury. >> i understand, mr. nelson has an earlier version, the updated version. >> show the updated version. >> correct. >> when was the updated version sent? >> the same day as the
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original -- [inaudible] [inaudible] >> we are going to just take our break. there's a lot of moving parts, i don't think anybody -- we can just acknowledge, without showing it again, you've shown earlier versions. >> fine and part of the problem we are experiencing here, i'm getting many of these items in pdf format, some are electronically from so many people involved, getting things in different formats so if i could have a second. >> yes, it seems like a good, nobody should be criticized
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oregon, just tell the jury this is what it is. >> i could provide an extra copy and read publish the slides presented we want to make sure we are not presenting information that's inaccurate. >> it is my fault, your honor. [inaudible] >> i must have looked and assumed it was a second copy of the same thing. >> tell them you were relying on an earlier version of the one witnessed showed. >> perhaps it would help if i could give, get a copy of the. >> until we are done with the break, let's reconvene, where
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are we at now? 2:45 p.m.? 3:40 p.m.? 3:40 p.m. >> the medical evidence testimony portion of the derek chauvin trial under way, day nine of the trial in minneapolis of the former minneapolis police officer charged in the death of george floyd. they heard this morning from pulmonologist doctor mark martin tobin and now daniel, a forensic toxicologist of the lapse in pennsylvania. taking a 20 minute break, we expect to resume about 4:40 p.m. eastern or 3:40 p.m. central. a reminder, we will re- air today's trial at the 8:00 eastern here on c-span2 as always, all coverage of today in previous days are available at c-span.org. while we wait for the trial to resume, testimony from earlier

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