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tv   Victory with No Name  CSPAN  February 7, 2016 8:00am-9:26am EST

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>> up next on american history from colin calloway 1791 battle for ohio territory. the heavy american casualties embarrassment forced the army to recalibrate the threat u.s. territorial interests. the defeat was lost and received renewed attention from native
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american study scholars. for the nal library study of george washington hosted this want. 90 minutes. >> it is a pleasure to welcome calloway. to speak. his torn inent his and tive american history you know the significance of native americans in the making george washington and his story. but i think it is significant a lot of great books on george washington and native american peoples bring outly ones that the full perspective of native they an groups as well as could, particularly reflect latest literature that has been transformed the last 30 years and more. proffer calloway -- professor calloway is one who is leading early american
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historians have learned the incorporating native american history into american history. he's currently professor of and professor of native american studies at dartmouth. b.a. and ph.d. from the university of lee which english man n studying native american history which 1970's in england is an extraordinary story itself. after moving to the united fores he taught high school a few years in springfield, vermont. he served for two years as the director and editor for the history of american at the newberry library in chicago which is really for understanding native american history and center as the newberry is an extraordinary institution. he taught seven years at of wyoming and has been associated with dartmouth when he came as a
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visiting professor but a permanent professor there many years. incredibly prolific. he is one of these people whose and writing all the time and producing so much those of look on enviously at the production because not only write a lot he writes brilliantly. wimp craft. treaties and troet making. the indian history of american institution, native americans in dartmouth. people, indians and highlanderses and colonialen in scotland. documentary survey of american indian history. american revolution in indian country which is the first time came across his work which is a brilliant survey of the varied experiences of native american complicated revolution. transformation of north
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america. one vast winter count the native lewis and st before clark. i will steal his thunder if he about ng to make a joke this book the wuone vast winter vast book id was one and it took him a long time with name like that it had to be big. over a few hundred years the emographics of native american peoples in the wells. british american realizes. worlds for all indians, uropeans and remaking of early america. tonight he will talk about the latest become the victory with native american defeat of the first american army. lease, everybody welcome colin calloway. [applause] [applause] you, sor calloway: thank everyone. it is a pleasure to be here. mount vernon so
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i'm a novice, i guess. english that he you laid on me. a big book but it is quite a little book. a largeride project on book i have been working on for some years which i'm calling the agenda world of george washingt washington. doing that, i wondered why this, which i had forever, department feature so much in the things i was writing about george washington. he pictuvictory with no name ia book about a ballttle on a sing 1791.november 4, st. normally called clair's defeat when the john was indians in
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northwestern ohio. lost his whole army, which was significant at that was the se only army that the united states had. i wondered why i was not finding in the things i was reading about george washington because he was the in chief. imagine if obama lost an army. a strange quiet. that is kind of what brought me that and the fact it is something in the work i had done i had come across lots of times and i wanted to understand more about it. being in native american studies and historian of native help draw ouldn't kphaeurpbs with cuss -- -- risons with dust uster's last stand and where
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george custer in 1876 got others with him got killed in the battle of little bighorn. everybody knows about that or thinks they know something about that. moviesave been books and nd anheuser busch murals, all kinds of things. it is almost appear iconic epic struggle in american history. ere, the skwrepbtdz inflict ed close to 1,000 casual -- indians nflicted close to 1,000 casualties at the time when the nited states could ill afford th that. yet not many people have heard about it. it was appear interesting about, not only involving human beings and a human tragedy, i as all battles are, but
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of what mple of how -- we choose to remember and what we choose to forget as we history.t our i don't just mean the united states but all nations do this. selective in the things that come to the fore and the that stand outle and nently in our history what that history says about us. a war against indians it is a war about land. american agenda policy is land policy, really. american of the revolution with the treaty of only in 1783 britain not recognized the independence of colonies and new united states, but it also to the united states
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everything south of the great north of florida and east of the mississippi. was really in many ways had. the united states that was its resource. asening left-hand had been at the under of the french and war, seven years war 20 years earlier the united states war and it wasng broke. and to build a nation it needed as land offered the those coffers.ll build the infrastructure of the in theand give direction nation's growth. he united states -- and i say this in all my classes -- is a on indian land. is that not rhetoric, that is just a fact.
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it was all native american land. now it is not. fact is an important determinant of many things in and manyerican history things in george washington's life. apologize for i the quality of some of my images. rudimenta essarily rudimentary. most inept person when it comes to computers and my know it. once did one of those fancy bullet points and one of my stuck up his s and and said hey, professor, did your daughter do that for you. and your point is? happening.u what is its nited states got
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independence from britain, then t built a nation moving westward. though i always think of george washington as a person looking directions. looking east to britain across the atlantic. that is the old. looking west into indian country and that is the new. lands is ing those something that happens from through through war, negotiation, through conflict. constant. a and it is something that i think the george washington and secretary of war henry knox deeply out and think box. this is henry knox. redundant showing you a picture of george washington. it is significant because he is of war.y lodged in the is department of war which is where think those relations to
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take place and it would remain here until 1849 when they are transferred not to the epartment of state but the department of interior which is rather an odd place. like to appreciate these guys dge that think seriously about how we are going to do this. must and nation that -- indian land with as nt to do that much justice, fairness and honor as we can do. sets up, i think, one of the of the l contradictions united states indian policy. there ill be expansion, must be expansion, but we will do that honorably and we will do with the paoeeople whose
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lands we will take. i don't think this is crocodile tears. wrestled with this for a long time. -- their gel is to treat goal is to treat indians justly fairly and try to develop a and policy that is systematic, rderly, not accompanied by bloodshed and mayhem if possible. make just ands to fair treaties with agendas by with of course indians give up their land. agreeentually, hopefully, to live like americans. the problem comes, of course, thanks.e indians say no then what do you do? and then your choices are limited.
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his, i think, exemplifies location of the northwest territory. area where this is played out and the scene for our story tonight. -- when colonies much set up coloniesup many of the had enormous grants of land. actually irginia grants the nobody knew what it was. here was the treaty of lancaster in 1744 where the iroquois think they are giving on virginia's western front. they think they are talking the shenandoah valley.
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but the charter could be they are giving up the ohio country and beyond. the question becomes , the end of the revolution what will the former colonies do to which estern lands they have a legitimate claim. shouldn't this be a national resource? cede those states lands to the federal government. georgia does not divisive up on 1802.stern claims until so it is really not the ohio be seen re that could as federal land and what are we going to do with it. muchber of land ordinances written, many by thomas jefferson and culminate in the ordinance of 1787.
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actually ank this is brilliant document. what has happened. colonies had tish revolted against the crown. a pretty chad rail -- thing to they had secured their independence and many justified not as a ned that radical departure but as natu l natural. colonies were children of mother country, and like all hildren they grew up, they became stronger, more ndependent, and they moved away. that is what had happened. that is ok. then what happens if, from colonist that will
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become states citizens move on new land and the process begins again for of people move to minneapolis minneapolis, and as they grow in trength and number and become resentful of government from hiladelphia or washington they inadvocate that same reasoning. ow we will siphon off and become another country. o that instead of having 50 states we might have had a dozen different countries. the northwest ordinance provides the answer to that. the answer is that as the west and create new communities they will not be dure a permanent the d class status the way american colonies were. they will be territories. territorial status will be
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tempora temporary. territory has 5,000 people they can form a elect a t and legislation and once they have they can set up territory competition to enter union on the same equal status as the other states of union. i think that is incredibly a way of locking expansion national interests and an ng nation building expansion goal. it was also understood or that the expansion would be orderly. he lands would be surveyed and measured and bounded. would be divided up into townships.uare
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it would be settled on a kind of new england model. so, starting with the western border of pennsylvania, that is proceeded. sanction sets up the territorial system of the united states. process that most tates come into the union with expansion, with some exceptions. nd it explains if you fly over the united states and look down everything is in squares. and look er britain down and the guys who built the they areal over the place -- they are all over the place. is a blueprint for national expansion. in the northwest ordinance that we will deal honorably with the indian people living there. e will not invade their
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territories or wage war except, in just and , lawful wars authorized by obviously a ch is phrase to think about. often do we go to unjust and wars and acknowledge it? not very often. the time the northwest is framed a group of speculators who call themselves the ohio company are busy at washing. this is one of -- at work. this is the minister from ipswich, massachusetts, the ohio new ny where influential nglanders, many veterans who not been d who had
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they tely compensated and met in boston. line in my man newt a bunch of new [inaudible].t and do was to ntended to raise a million dollars by stock in the company and from congress uy that llion acres of land they would turn and sell to the settlers. a money-making scheme. these were men of vision and people e the kind of that the federal government anted to be in charge of its westward expansion. south of the ohio, kentucky, be murder and to
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mayh took iing land by marking tomahawks. we wanted this to be more civilize d. to work with ent members of the government. hey had friends in high places and friends in government. n some cases they themselves were in government. 18th century ideas of what might constitute of interest were at least from what we think they should be today. essentially what happened here asked ohio company 1.5 ress to grant them million acres. $1 to be but they actually got more. company got in
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on the act and said if he can and we .5 million acres will sell that land to fortune investors. the going rates of the land were $1 an acre which doesn't seem like much. this company got a better deal. first they got congress to agree, well, surveying this will ake time and money and what is more not all of the happened will be of equal company. be poor land. make is of 66 cents and acre. now will they pay for it? continental currency. the money congress will printed fight the war that was complement h
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tphefpbl. it they had it to make sure this they wanteded to be ahead
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you didn't because ant 1kw59ders on that 4r57bd skakeling a claim that would be difficult. tiny army that the united the ohio river in 1780's.e much of what they are dock is trespassers. fields annual ng expelling them. they are jumping the gum. land companies to get there first and be believe able to to the sellers. -- for r land another s the shawneeis s
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rom the time of the revolution mu . they were indigital believes -- in tkeupblg indigenous. 17th ere there before the century when escalating wash european trade had a diaspora. migrated west to illinois, pennsylvania, go aboeorgia. connections with indian i think so that they reassemble d. bordere right where that
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people thought with the british revolution. you are defeated people. on your land. the british allies gave us that land. but that land is ours. it was a treaty by right of conquest. of ahere was an instant treaty in 1786, where one of the shawnee speakers said we can't live like this to your putting -- there's not enough
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land to support our women and we will starve. presented the american a with richard butler were led to die in this battle. they refuse to accept the wampum belt. one of them picked it up off the table, dropped on the ground, on the floor, and grounded into the third with his boot. indian people in that region were still talking about that five, six years later. this was such a gross act of disrespect to the rituals and by which human beings reached out to one another. they made peace. it was a clear message that this was a different, more aggressive power with which the indian people were dealing with.
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but indian people quickly got wise. they formed a coalition and sent congress a message. they said we are not can put up with that. when i can have the united treaties with individual indian tribes. if you want land, you have to have the agreement of all people who are affected by it. that is not what the united states wanted to hear. they tried to divide the opposition. land,ing to secure the the northwest territory, what the u.s. does is to try negotiate a treaty to get those multiple tribes to confirm the land sessions in those earlier treaties. meeting. a
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named after a general in the revolution. indian leaders turn up and agree. treaties, these without the people speaking for the people. these are people who may be making a role for themselves, working with this new power. which was an option, and strategy of the survival. they were disavowed by most indian people. they said we are not can have anything to do with this. now the government can reconcile with what the do northwest ordinance is that it would do. honorably andl fairly with indian people, and never invade their territory,
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except in just wars, authorized by congress. -- make amake an reasonable treaty with the indians, but they wouldn't listen to reason. they would have to give up the land that they are committed to defending. so now the u.s. has to go into war mode. josiah, -- sent josiah, to make the reason. to see it their way. they followed the same pattern. the french have done it. the british did it. george washington did it. when you launch -- send an army into indian company, the objective is not usually to find
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indian warriors and meet them in battle. the objective is to find indian villages and indian cornfields and burn them. that was how we defeated indians. in the 19th century on the great plains where people were hunting ,uffalo, we did the same thing by destroying indian villages in winter, killing their pony herds, and also systematically exterminating the buffalo. by doing that, you render women and children hungry. comes, they have no chance -- choice but to come into the reservation. the same thing applies in the 18th century. destroy the cornfields. there's no time to replant another crop.
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that's how you defeat the indians. that's what palmer essentially does. he marches into ohio indian country, burns villages, and destroys crops. wheneal casualties occur their armies turn around to head home. indian people who evaporated in their advance come back. at the time he goes home, he suffers 200 casualties. he still claims a victory. george washington isn't buying it. george washington says i wasn't expecting much from the moment i found out he was a drunk. before he goes off the expedition, it is come to the president's attention that you like to drink too much. there is an investigation into this.
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it seems that was not the cause of the problem. when he was running into was an , likeng indian coalition little turtle and blue jacket, who were mounting committed resistance to this american endeavor. charge falls to officer clocked to -- clark. he married well. general, andted also government of the northwest territory. it was also a shareholder in the ohio company. inowned a thousand acres ohio. so was a secretary knox. to of the men appointed , whosioning the expedition
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, wasssistant secretary also a business partner of henry knox. speculating land. a lot of interesting enclosing it developments going on here. sinclair had been the person who negotiated the treaty of four, -- fort harmer. now he is given the job of getting the job done. attempt.e failed now the government and the land companies need to get this done. investors are not going to be able to sell land to settlers went indian war parties are rating south of the ohio river.
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so we have to defeat them. henry knox consistently underestimates what he is up against. he dismisses indian resistance as 200 renegades. the right-thinking indians will come away to our way of thinking. not onlyrestimating the capacity of indian people to mount resistance, but also the numbers against. right from the beginning, sinclair's campaign as something of a debacle. clear contract of a fraud. he is supposed to assemble his for what is now cincinnati. many troops came out of fort. , and fought on the ohio river.
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the impacts of the traveled over the mountain were wrong size and of poor quality. don't resist raindrops. gunpowder is wet. isarly, contractor fraud apple pie, nothing new. are investing in the company's and pushing for the campaign are also involved in that. the quality of the groups is lamentable. talks washington regularly about the quality of the militia troops he had any french and indian war and the revolution did he not recognize the need for a national army to do national things. there's still resistance to that.
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most the people who are turning ,p the campaign are militia people on short-term investment, people getting paid three dollars a month. the dollar is deducted for uniform and food. people are going to face what's coming to them. the determination of the indian people resisting. in just about every way you look at it, the indians are going to fight these guys are better prepared, better supplied, and in a better frame of mind. we use the term indian warrior so loosely, you might to get was one word, or even synonymous turns. -- terms. that is a stereotype we assigned to these people.
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certainly by this time they were. if you look at the 18th century and your shawnee, you've know nothing but war. it's hard to deal with these people, because they have known nothing but war. it was not a natural state of affair, it was regarded as an unnatural state of affairs. an abnormal say. it was something for which you prepared yourself. you prepared for the violence of comeback. it's a ritual. observed rituals, and it usually involve fasting and sexual abstinence. so one of the myths of the the americant is
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indians will do unspeakable things. well, probably not. if you go through ritual and sexual abstinence to prepare yourself for war, i don't think you're going to blow that with the first white woman who falls into your arms. especially if you take her captive and you were to take your own for adoption. in which case, she becomes a relative. powerfuld infringe incensed taboos. talk people in the army about meeting st. clair. they are praying, singing, chanting, they are preparing themselves for the ritual of combat. these young men with lots of experience as warriors are coming to meet an army that is , asprepared by any means
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far as i can see. st. clair is aware of the fact that is hopelessly behind schedule. he is not going to make it to northwest ohio in time to burn the crops. he is still lumbering along, and it is october. it is raining. it is snowing. he's making sometimes a mile or two a day, because asked men are having to sell the trees, to make room for the wagons that hold the supplies. his brought in different soldiers with him. he has women and children with him. his camp followers. like a town on the move. if there were all, sinclair thinks the indians don't know he is coming. they can't hear the bellowing in the woods, even though his men
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report sightings of indians. even though horses start to disappear. even though one or two people are killed. of course the indians know he is coming. they are monitoring his movement. on the evening of november 3, sinclair makes encampment on --t he thinks is the bank exactly the wabash river. he does not know where he is. thatorry is the same worry custer had at the little bighorn. he is afraid that the indians will scatter and run before he gets there. before he finds them and kills them. there standing around a campfire and warming the hands. the plan is, the next day we will get up early, march the next however many miles it is -- he's actually 44 miles away from -- will thinks he has
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get up early, march, will get this done. the indian army has come to meet him. they are lying in wait to have miles away. they are ready for the battle that they know is going to happen next morning. the next morning when the troops get up, suddenly all hell breaks loose. the group of militia camp across are engulfed by this indian attack. they run across the river, run into the american cap meant, people are still eating breakfast. the indians do what indians were not supposed to be able to do. their leaders have formulated an effective battle plan, and they have their warriors executing that plan efficiently and effectively. -- it'sit essentially you advanceard --
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in a crescent moon formation. as you engage the enemy, your wings envelop the enemy. they think they were surrounded when the battle started. then what happens is the ill trained troops, who are being the liberally, ill trained troops huddled together for apparent safety. the village is caught in a killing field. dislodge the to indians who were firing from the .rees and from cover this is not a european former -- formation.
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you go back into the ranks and starts over again. this,about three hours of sinclair apparently survives. he puts on a cloak so is not targeted as a officer. it rapidly become just a route. as we know, that's when the casualties happen in war. wars, that'sonic where the casualties happen. the instinct for survival takes over, and trumps the discipline that has held them in check. naturalistic -- the natural instinct is to run to safety. that's when the cabaret comes. -- calvary comes.
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and just hacked down people take them captive. what's left of st. clair's army limps its way back down the road that they are calm. the casualties are about 630 dead, and two or 300 wounded, plus unknown numbers of captives. as st. clair left, he had an army of about 2000. desertion and -- sickness had to reduce that number. battle, he had to send his regiment on the path to protect the wagons are coming up behind. not from indians, but from deserters from his own army. by the time the army happened, he had many 1400 effective men. they are virtually obliterated. when that news reaches philadelphia, of course, this is
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huge. because this is not only shocking for the human tragedy involved, this was united states own army. at a time when the united states is a baby, two years and since the constitution. the nation is still try to build itself. as tried to establish itself as an independent nation. people in the western frontier who are thinking of maybe going into a spanishnd, because control the mississippi. the u.s. can't get that sorted , then western farmers might be the better off of the spaniards. talk to the british about joining quebec. se future republic who
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is anything but certain. it was precarious. this is the beginning of our becoming terms of united states as we know it. i seems like there's a certain inevitability about it. x did know and that. people in philadelphia were talking about nothing else. the newspapers picket up. people wrote poems about it. people wrote songs about it. the really bad, i would recommend you reading them. there was a fueled political division, the very thing that washington wanted to avoid. there was a congressional investigation, the first one in
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american history. excuse me. to thelso gave rise first use of executive privilege congressional group investigating it decided to follow the money. , some werem saw looking forward, tracing it back up the line to alexander hamilton, who was nobody's favorite. the congressional committee demanded documentation. washington huddled with his cabinet and said what we do? the consensus was we have to turn over the documents. with the president should have the right to withhold any documents, disclosure of which might be debt to mental -- detrimental to the public .nterest
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those of us who lived through watergate, i can see that most of you did, we all know what that is. but that's where it came from. the indians did it. cannot reverse this defeat immediately. it has to rebuild its army. it also has to rethink how it organizes, pays for and structures its army. but that's about rebuilding a national army. a much more professional army. under the command of general .nthony wayne he is the person to get the job done. in the meantime, the u.s. has to buy time for itself. washington in knox go back to plan a, making treaties with indians. they sent out embassies --
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emissaries to come with an agreement, a compromise. if not the ohio river, maybe muskingum river. militantsthe indian who had resisted and rejected such offers before st. clair, yes,ot now likely to say we destroyed your army, now we'll compromise. diplomacy, the indians go to philadelphia. he had a pretty hectic schedule of having dinner with indian delegations. senecas andthe --tern intercourse to act they want to build army and divide the indian coalition.
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as happens with a fragile coalition like this, having achieved their objective, which they think they have, what's the hold them together. different agendas. some of them begin to say maybe a compromise would be so bad. going to have to learn to live with these people at some point anyway. maybe now's the time to do it. the opposition, the indian coalition is a fragment of what it was. it's early doesn't have the same -- little turtle is no longer in the same position of authority. he is shifted his position. he's going to become but the u.s. will be call a piece chief.
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someone who advocates the following the right road as survival for his people. the indians are preparing to meet this new american army. what are they doing in preparation for that? what they usually do is they ritually fast. and then the battle doesn't happen. and so they disperse to go hunting to feed themselves. and then the battle happens. that's when wayne advances. that is how he timed it, not deliberately, that is how it happened. so it was a quick battle and the indians are defeated and they actually are not defeated with any kind of heavy casualties that wayne and his officers claim, by some counts, the indians actually inflict more casualties than that they suffered, but the real blow to the indians is they have been led to believe by the british that the british would be there
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for them. the british would supply them. the british would provide protection when they needed it. and the indians leaving the battlefield ran to a british fort that was being built and asked for shelter. the problem is, this is 1794. there is a worrying thing called the french revolution happening in europe and the last thing the british want to do now is get involved in another shooting war with the united states. so the gates remained closed. the indian people, veterans of that battle, said that is what really dispirited them. what had happened on the battlefield, they could revisit that, but the betrayal by the british, again, was what really cost them. the indian leaders meet at the treaty of greenville at a whole generation of new people are there including little turtle
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and blue jacket and a rollcall of indian leaders from before the revolution, during the revolution, and after. they signed this treaty and give up about two thirds of what is ohio and then they keep the treaty. they keep the treaty. they try, many of them, to live according to this new american way of life. they don't go to war again. younger indians who don't join this treaty, people like tecumseh, they will go to war at another time. the leaders of the coalition keep the treating. another thing is this interesting picture which the picks little turtle talking to this group of officers in this negotiation and here is an american officer taking notes.
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little turtle is speaking in miami. his language, his words, are being translated by one interpreter, right? and somebody else is taking notes on his knee. and we will write that up and that will be the treaty and that will be the record of the meeting and we will have an authentic record of what went on there. that is why i did a book on indian treaties once because we wanted to see the back story behind those formal documents that you've got and the way to interpret those terms must have been pretty incredible. and that opens up that territory. in 1795, there are 5000 more american people living in ohio. by 1800, 45,000. in 1803, 60,000 people.
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by 1830, 938,000 people. this opens up a tsunami, literally, which engulfs the indian people who are living there. many people are going to be removed. those who have survived have of course found new ways of surviving and they will not be standing toe to toe with american power. they will be developing new strategies. i want to show you the sky. -- this guy. this is an interesting fellow. he fought at the st. clair defeat. he fought at the victory with no name. his name is william wells. he was captured by indians as a boy and was adopted as a miami indian.
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he later married little turtle's daughter. as a young boy, he used to work as a decoy on the ohio river, where settlers would have boats forging the river. he would go to the banks of the ohio river and would yell, help, white boy. the boat would pull in to help him and then the miami warriors would jump out and kill the people and plunder the boat. he fought with the indian people and then afterwards he changes his mind and he changes his identity and he changed his allegiance. he goes back to american society and he works as an interpreter and as a scout for general anthony wayne. he is at the treaty of greenville as an interpreter and then he works as an indian agent working with his father-in-law, little turtle, who is now on board with this plan, to help
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the miami and other indians to live a life like white men. his story ends when the war of 1812 breaks out. he found himself at the garrison of fort dearborn, which is what becomes chicago. when the war breaks out, a small american garrison was there and they are besieged by the local indians, pottawatomie indians who were aligning with the british. the garrison knows that they are in an untenable position, so they are leaving the fort and trying to make their way through the indian line. william wells leads them out and he leads them out with his face blackened in sort of traditional miami indian way of preparing for death. he knows he is going to die.
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and the pottawatomies attack, they enter the garrison, they kill a lot of people, and they kill william wells and they cut out his heart and the eat it as a gesture of respect for a great enemy. his life story and a lot of what i have been talking about here is about boundary, indians and americans fighting over a boundary, indians lying down their lives to protect the ohio river, and we sort of get an idea that the frontier is about that. there is a sort of hard line of separating the whites and the indians, but in fact, and this is the deeper tragedy of it, the front tier is not a hard line, it is like a sponge. you get people with very complicated and sometimes conflicted identities.
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is wells an american? is he an indian? he is born american, and he is adopted as an indian, mary's as an indian, is back to american, but when he dies, it seems like he chooses almost to die as an indian. i tell you this story not because of graphic detail but because it is one of a story that we know well but i think represents hundreds and maybe even thousands of other stories that we don't know well. this was the kind of thing that was going on for a long time. these wars not only divided people like races with one against each other, but they divided communities and families because of generations of cultural contact where people have been making love to each
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other more often than killing each other. i'm going to close with this. here i am a native american historian and i'm talking about war. also, perpetuating the stereotype of native american warriors that i always complain about. actually, this battle is something of an anomaly in that most indian people who have fought in america's wars have fought for the united states, not against it. that might seem like a surprise because we are on such a steady diet of westerns. but on wars that are fought, indians are on both sides. st. clair had some chickawa scouts with him, but they didn't do much good. the custer battle is very
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interesting. indian scouts see crow scouts coming from custer and they go and gather the news. the first news about custer's to feet is the crow indians get off of their horses and they weep and they walked back we being. i don't think that is because they loved george custer. if you knew anything about george custer, you would be skeptical, but if you is at the battle of little bighorn site, now, it is on the crow reservation which is where it took place. this was not only an indian-white battle, this was an indian-indian battle. the cheyenne had invaded crow territory and this required some
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to a lie with the united states. that happened all the time and in every war that the united states has fought from the revolution, indian people have been present in all parts of their population. i was giving a talk at shawnee state of your ago and this question came up, why would indians fight for the united states, even to this day, when they are so ambivalent about the treatment that the united states has meted out to them? you will see somebody draped in an american flag on a reservation, but the question was asked by someone in the audience and it was answered by a shawnee person. it was quite simple, they said. it is still our country.
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it's just that the government changed. [laughter] prof. calloway: thank you. [applause] prof. calloway: i will be happy to take questions. a cousin it is being felt, i think you'll have to wait for a microphone that we will give you. douglas: who wants to kick it off? i told colin that we have the best audience in america in this room every month, so somebody has got to give him a hard question here. prof. calloway: or an easy question would be fine, you know. [laughter] prof. calloway: i'm sorry. >> i would like to follow up on the comments you made about the soldier who, when he died, i guess it was the indians, they ate part of his heart. and i have run into various references to a certain amount
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of cannibalism that existed within the indian community of my research on the war of 1812 in that area. i was wondering if you could talk about if it was prevalent in multiple indian tribes or just certain ones or what degree did it exist? prof. calloway: yeah, yeah, it is a difficult one because you read these accounts and it is jarring. and i am not sure what dictionary definition is of cannibalism, but it is eating people, then i don't think that exist. i think what we're looking at is a ritual. this is not the donner party, right? this is ritual eating. but it is also complicated. there are well-documented cases, but i think sometimes, too, the impression that we get lies in the document, so i have seen instances where indian people
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talk about eating, eating people. so, for instance, in the early 18th century, it happened in two occasions. when the french go to war against the fox indians in present-day wisconsin, we usually give the french pretty good press for their relations with the indian people, what not all of them. they wanted to get rid of the fox because they stood in the way of extending their trade out to the sioux. and i think by definition this was a genocidal war. they were out to destroy the fox. at one point, they had trapped hundreds of these people in a village, men, women, and children. they tried to surrender and a message from on high comes down and says, no.
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at which point, and i remember the first time i was reading this, the people, mothers and fathers, were handing their children over the stockade to the indians on the other side who were fighting with the french were going to be killing them. and the indians on the other side were taking their children and they would eat them. what that meaning it was and the reason why they were sending them over was his they were giving them protection and by eating them, they meant that they were taking them in as their own. so those children would be adopted and would become them and the french new enough not to mess with that. so sometimes, i think it is the language that betrays a greater relevance, but i think there are clearly cases throughout wars where officers describe this in horror. my best take on this is what is
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happening here is that this is a ritual form of ingesting part of an enemy. with what meanings that has, i think it is beyond me. this lady here had a question. >> did you say what percentage of wayne's army were regulars? prof. calloway: no, i didn't, but it was very much a regular army. he called it a legion. you had regular troops and you had men trained in indian warfare, and it is a very different kind of army. the indians recognized that and they talked about that and they recognize that it was a different opposition and one of the things that comes out of this is that the idea in the united states that you could
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simply summon the militia when a problem happened. that gives way to the fact that we need to have a professional force, an instance and i forgot the date where congress is talking about, ok, if we are going to have an army, there has to have, we have to limit it to 3000 men. washington said, ok, we will send out a message to invading nations that they can only send 3000 men. [laughter] prof. calloway: it seems almost laughable but we were at a time when the united states was also establishing its post office, it's a road systems, everything else, it is still on its training wheels as a nation pretty much. douglas: we are running short on time, but i would like to ask one final question. as a founding director, i have my prerogative.
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[laughter] prof. calloway: it's totally your prerogative. [laughter] >> in this case, i would like you to give us a preview of that next, the book, that study of george washington's indian world. tell us right now about this man who cut his teeth in indian war and diplomacy and failed miserably in many cases. prof. calloway: yeah, sure, and my reason for doing this is for getting into george washington and this is really a vehicle of most of my life and that is to get the indian story -- douglas: [indiscernible] [laughter] prof. calloway: is that it? that is to get my indian story out in a meaningful way, and
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george washington, if you can take an american icon and show the indian expeditions and the experiences and their life stories, i think it is a fundamental part of it. i mean, washington lives a long time. he lives for most of the 18th century, and through him you get not only this land policy that i have been talking about, but this civilization policy for the indian people. when i first got the idea for doing this, i read a lot of george washington biographies. most of what i read about george washington and the indians in ohio country when he was the young man, he followed this expedition and that was kind of it in many cases.
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but i also realized that every time and those biographers talked about land or western land, you can just put out western and put in indian, and then the whole book was about indians. he was a surveyor, he was a speculator, you know, he cut his teeth in indian country, but he was there for a reason. his vision of the west and the indian land was that it would become american real estate, whether it is owned by george washington or if it is the nation's territory. that is a fundamental story. but i also think that he is obviously a complex character. he wrestles with a lot of issues and dilemmas that plague
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american indian policy and plague american indian people for a long time and what i have enjoyed about doing this is how much time he spends with indian people. now so far, i haven't found any great sources written by washington that are insightful and informed about indian culture and indian languages and kinship culture or anything like that. when washington looks at indian country, he sees a land, and when he looks at the people, he sees either enemies or allies. as president, he had this constant stream of indian people coming to visit him in philadelphia. and i think just that, a snapshot of philadelphia in the 1790's where on almost any given day, you have an indian delegation trucking down market
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street or wherever it is, that is a vision we don't often have in american history, and the idea that this man sat down and smoked a calumet pipe is not an image that we have. i don't really have an idea of an aloof washington being able to carry that off. so i hope what i will be able to do in this book is add another dimension to washington's life, but the subversive purpose of it is to really emphasize how important indians were not just in washington's life, but also in american history, where i actually and genuinely believe that a lot of american history doesn't make sense. so many things in washington's life would not have happened the
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way they did had it not be for the presence of indian people or washington's presence in indian country. so that is where i am right now. that will be on my mind for a bit. douglas: we are very much looking forward to that. let's give him a ground of applause. -- round of applause. [applause] prof. calloway: thank you. douglas: there are books for sale right outside the door and we will make colin sign them all before he is allowed to leave, right over at this table, so look forward to that. and i look forward to seeing you all in the new year. so thank you very much for coming out and talking. prof. calloway: thank you. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit]
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>> next weekend on american america,v's reel vietnam histories from february 1966, the senate foreign relations committee chaired by fulbright, giving equal time to critics of the war and the johnson administration in hearings that were televised live to the nation. next saturday, february 13, at 10:00 p.m. eastern and sunday, february 14, at 4:00 p.m. eastern only on c-span 3. every election cycle were remind us how important it is for citizens to be informed. >> c-span is a home for
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political junkies and a way to track the government as it happens. >> i think it is a great way for us to stay informed. >> there are a lot of c-span fans on the hill. my colleagues are going to say, i saw you on c-span. >> there is so much more that c-span does to make sure people -- to know what's going on. january 28 marks the 30th anniversary of the space shuttle challenger accident. seven astronauts died when it exploded after takeoff in 1986. history on bookshelf, mike mullane discusses his book "riding rockets," recounting his experience of joining the first shuttle astronauts in 1979. four of those kills were in the challenger expedition. they held this even tin 2006. >> good evening. i would like to welcome our


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