tv Book Discussion on No Room for Democracy CSPAN February 13, 2016 4:00pm-5:01pm EST
coverage of washington. who will talks about the creation of politico and its influence. reporter willical answer questions on south carolina and about a. nevada. >> appointed by governor rockefeller in 1970, richard rosenbaum became one of the youngest justices on the supreme court. next on history bookshelf, richard rosenbaum discusses his book no room for democracy: the
triumph of ego over common sense . talks about his role as a rockefeller republican and how the republican party moved from moderate to conservative. st. john fisher in rochester, nw york hosted this event in 2008. richard: i want to tell you about my book. i would explain the title, no room for democracy: the triumph of ego over common sense. i would tell you about the style of the book. there is no room for democracy in a political party, political leadership. if can't get anything done you don't have a dictator running the political party. it's all right to listen to what other people have to say, but
there are a lot of things -- decisions a leader has to make if you going to get anything done. i saw an article the other day in the new york times in which democratic congressman said we need discipline in the party. i got a kick out of that because that's what i have been saying for a long time. there are examples in the book about decisions that had to be no roomt come down to for democracy. that thereys felt are a lot of political office holders out there that have very little common sense. i'm not talking about republicans or democrats. i'm talking about politicians. republican,feller
which is becoming more like the dodo bird, extinct, but we are still out there plugging. is atyle of the book little different and i am delighted with the way it has been received. when i wrote the book i was thinking about children's books. when you read a child's book, they are usually entertaining to keep the child interested, but there is a message in the book, share your toys, consider other people's feelings. this book is written so that it is entertaining, but at the same time there are a lot of political lessons. a couple of examples, i feel for example that both parties have gone off the track by selecting bus presidential candidates in advance of the convention. it ineel compelled to do order to get that extra
publicity, but i feel they pay a heavy penalty. the vice president's standby equipment, and so if they would wait until the convention, it would make more sense to me. it would make the convention more interesting, and secondly you would not set up a competition between the vice presidential candidates and the president, and that is what happens. when you pick a vice president in advance of the convention, the candidate starts to carve out their own constituency, which sets up a natural tug-of-war between the vice president and the president, an unhealthy situation when you consider how impossible the job of president of the united states actually is. that's one thing i discussed in the book. another is that conventions have become irrelevant. by the time you get to the
convention, the choices are ready-made in the primaries. conventions are nothing more than cheerleading sessions anymore. the only thing of value is a the party together and gets them on the same page. that's what happens at conventions. if they would pick the vice president after the president, it would solve a lot of problems of that nature. the primary system, i discussed that, it is very badly flawed, and i will take you why. the primary system was instituted because the people wanted to say in who the candidate was going to be. what it has done is give the leaders cover, because what getens is that you normally 15% of the vote out of the primary.
the leader gets his people out, so there is still control of who gets the nomination, but they have cover. i'm giving you a brief overview as a lot ofas well funny stories and here, i hope you ask me about a couple of them. i love to talk about that. let me read from my book briefly. this is about the convention that took place in 1976. i'm sure most of the students were not born then, but you missed your chance by being born so late finding out how much fun you can have a convention. the last great political convention was in 1976. the last time no one knew who would get the nomination until the last vote on the rollcall.
now, you know in advance. there was a big contest between jerry ford and ronald reagan at that time. end, the difference was , sot 125 votes of delegates that was the last cliffhanger, the one it gave people excitement. in my book i say in talking airt the convention, "the was electric as the opening day of the convention drew near. times alerted its leaders that this will be unlike any convention you have was tched. the rollcall delegates took place on wednesday and the suspense before and during the polling was a most unbearable.
not until the last two states was there a sure winner. 1187-1070. againonium broke out while the frenzy bounced colorful, lightweight beach balls. i had lots the battle to keep rockefeller at the president's side. still, i released every moment of the challenge and made a difference. i enjoyed the power that is both real and strong. as the commission close, the new york times chief political writer wrote that it does not but richard, rosenbaum and the head of the new york delegation proved to be
the dominant figures overshadowing such heavyweights as the vice president and the states to republican senators. it was a good fight. i will always remember that by centennial year and the last great presidential convention. ." i wanted to take you one other thing and then we will get to the questions. october 19 was a sunday three weeks ago, and i was thrilled to come across an article and in your times which boosted my book and extolled the virtues of the book. i read the first paragraph of a six-paragraph article. it says, "you don't have to know richard rosenbaum to enjoy his memoir. , no room for democracy: the triumph of ego over common sense . you don't even have to like income although nearly everyone does.
" moment to seeat it in the times, now c-span is here. i want to express my appreciation to st. john fisher for this event tonight and to everybody who has come. i'm so delighted to see so many students. it makes one feel younger when you are around students and can talk to them and answer the questions, so i appreciate that you came tonight. , jim, we can go to the questions. jim: that's fine. come on back and join us at the table. richard: i can stand. are you deferring to my age? jim: i and deferring to comfort. one of the things we might want to start with. this seconde
distinguished guests, and i don't mean you jim. [laughter] locally longerd than any recent chairperson and also has a unique opportunity of serving as state party chair. it would be kind of interesting to see his reaction to this idea of no democracy within political parties, what changes have taken place, and maybe get the ball rolling that way. it is the first political book i have read beginning to end. it was a great testament to the life of dick rosenbaum. we should all be so lucky as he has throughout his career. he earned a lot of it.
he enjoyed a great relationship with nelson rockefeller, which makes a huge difference. i did not have the same ,elationship with george pataki and you are so much more instrumental in moving state policy than i was. perhaps you can talk about that. i think your relationship with nelson rockefeller was unbelievable for an elected official and the chairman. richard: thank you, steve. i knew steve would like what i said before in no room for democracy. being county chairman, incidentally, is a tough role. i think it is the toughest job in politics. i have often said that.
you are right in the middle of things. you nuts forunit patronage, jobs. nelson rockefeller was very inspirational character. i doubt we will ever see the likes of him again. he was like a royal governor, very wealthy, great personality, very sunny personality, and the kind of guy that if you felt depressed about something and wanted to see him, to bring minutes later you would walk out two feet off the ground. very inspirational character. when i took the job a state chairman, and this speaks to steve's question, when i took that job i did not really want it. the governor wanted me to take it. i had been the county chair and we had had some successes. he called me in, and when he
called me i thought is going to elevate me on the court to an appellate court. it was somewhat surprising when he said that he wanted me to run the state operation, and i said, let me think about it. i told him, you know, i probably would do it for one thing. i am more afraid of my wife and i am of you. [laughter] that's true, too. [laughter] so i kept hemming and hauling. it.alked me into doing i said, governor, the problem is i understand all your state chairmen are nothing more than errand boys. he looked at me and said i have
not ever had anybody who really understood politics. have a i would like to leader who understands politics, and if you take the job, you can make all the decisions and i don't want to do this political stuff anyway. i'm more interested in running the state. i said, ok, on that basis, i will take the job, so i took it. he was as good as his word. great rockefeller was a user of people, but you wanted to be used. if he didn't use you, you felt left out. i got right into the thick of it. good thing i was in good physical shape because my office was three blocks from his office. every 15 minutes the phone would ring, the governor has to see you. the governor has to see you. i was running up and down the street like a jackrabbit. it was tough. i couldn't do it now. it was a great experience with him. he did leave a lot of decisions with me. i always like to illustrate that
death, but i think this is a funny story. i and ther and attorney general would meet every sunday at the mansion to talk about the week's agenda. months in theree job, and it was really amazing, we had lunch with the governor every day and we talk about stuff. it was a wonderful experience. he was teaching me a lot of things that i enjoyed learning. we had this dinner one night at the mansion and he said, you to appoint --ided to the parole board. i said, who is he? you made a deal with me. i'm supposed to make those decisions. he said, i made the decision before you got here. that was absurd.
i said, when you have against --? these are, i don't know. if his name shapira, i would be for him. the problem with that he did not get it. [laughter] richard: i could hear the wheels moving. that is a true story. .fter that, he never intruded we flew in his planes. they were fancy planes. in fact, when he became vice president, he called me in to go to rhode island for a political gathering, and we got on air force two and i looked around candy in plasticet
cups. on his plan we had caviar, champagne. a secured him and said if you , you will havet you, you wil to move into a smaller house. we grew for a close and rockefeller became like a second father to me. way he got over the passed. steve: is it possible we can return to a time when you have a leader of a party having that much influence on policy decisions? richard: i think it is possible. i'm not sure we could produce
anybody like that. a lot of it was his personality. he had a very strong personality and people do not stand in his way. afraid to assert himself and go down to a legislator's office when he needed a vote and talk to them one-on-one. act arrogant, but not rockefeller. he would pop in the people's offices. like i said, he was an imperial governor. it was impressive when he did that. my book has a couple of chapters , 26 in all, and a couple of them talk about rockefeller. it is not just a book about rockefeller. there are stories, a lot of them funny, some of them serious. there is a murder in there. it can get pretty intriguing.
there was a murder that i knew was going to happen and i cannot do anything about it, but i won't go into that now. i'm sure you have a question. richard: going back to the 1976 convention, it looked like ford was a shoo-in, but at a certain point reagan had so much momentum that it was unclear. i remember watching the convention on television. .hat is when i first saw you somebody had ripped the phone out of the wall that you are using and you are holding it up on national television and seem to be having so much fun. i remove her saying, who is this guy, but everybody else was so serious, but the main point is int you were instrumental
getting the nomination for gerald ford. vicefeller had been president, and he essentially dumped him because he felt he needed to get the conservatives away from backing reagan, and rockefeller was not popular with conservative wings. ford in a sense betrayed the man youwas your mentor, and yet still brought the new york delegates to ford and won him the nomination. if you would say a bit about that. and also, little bit about your relationship with ronald reagan. what tim said is true could we came to the point where we boxed ourselves in. frankly, i lost a lot of respect for ford because he jettisoned rockefeller from the ticket.
in the ovale him office about it and said to him, mr. president, with all due respect, you are the president. don rumsfeld was the big troublemaker and all this. i've never forgiven them. they would lose their conservative base if they did not get rid of rockefeller. you know what, justice prevailed. ford lost new york state in that election. if rockefeller had been on the ticket he would have one and then president. he told me later that he made a big mistake. and ihouse members, will take why. they run every two years, and what did they do? richard: in order to do that, they have to compromise on every issue.
if you compromise on every issue, you develop a personality subjected to pressure which otherwise you would not feel. senators run for six-year terms, much different situation, but to im's point.n thame i was sitting in my office in new york at the time the ford -reagan contest was getting dicey. i called up rockefeller in washington come and at that time he was vice president, and i told him there is a lot of trouble brewing. the trouble was that the following tuesday was super tuesday, when you have six primaries. today it is like 15. we had six primaries on the schedule. me like ronald reagan was going to win five out of six states. if he did, his candidacy would have gotten too far ahead of
ford so that the lemming effect would take place, where people follow you over the cliff like lemmings do. it would have been on television, a lot of undecided delegates would of thought we have to get out. i told him we wanted to get together and talk strategy. washington and walked in, you know, if we don't release or delegates in new york for ford, where are not going to catch up. he said, that is your job. it is up to you. i didn't really like the decision i had to make, because i always felt that ford and reagan would have split the vote enough that rockefeller could have come up the middle and become president. that's what i was interested in seeing happen. after we talked about it, i think that rockefeller felt that back thedea of holding
delegates didn't work, he would be blamed for ford's defeat and he did not want that to happen. it's funny how wings change in politics. 24 hours can turn the world upside down and politics. is just pure speculation. you don't know who is going to come out of the woodwork. look at obama. anybody think he was going to run for president two years ago? i doubt it. that's politics. to new york after talking to him and sent out telegrams to the entire delegation, went to albany, voted for ford. i think we had 153 delegates then, but now will he have a hundred because we have lost a lot of congressional members in new york, and that is what it is based on. politics is a lot of fun, and you have to have the right attitude. youthtical party without is a party of the past and no
future. we need to encourage young people to get in on the bottom floor and work up through the system. it is the most important thing i can tell you. inhave to have young people politics. believe me, if you look at it the right way, it is a lot of fun. i never took myself so seriously and became so arrogant over it that everything was a monumental decision, but we did deliver the vote. it was a great convention. we had a lot of fun at the convention. i remember that we were ,urrounded by reagan delegates the utah delegation on her right, which was reagan, north carolina in front of us, which was reagan, and on the left was texas. --as was so conservative senatorservative
could knock it in the delegation. they would not let him in. every time reagan would come in, the delegates from texas would viva, reflecting the mexican influence in texas could i pass the word among my delegates that every time reagan comes in, you will yell out "v iva" -- [laughter] and reagan did not hold a grudge -- 1980, he asked me -- we really deprived him of the nomination, but he never held a grudge.
i began to think of him as everybody's grandfather, a very nice person. in 1984, he asked me to do it again and i became fond of him. i was standing with him one time in new york at a hispanic gathering and people were coming in and out and i knew some of the folks. i would tell reagan the names and what have you. some but he dropped their comb on the floor, which amused me greatly, because i did not use combs. [laughter] richard: reagan picked up the comb and gave it to the person. i don't think there are too many presidents who would do that. i thought that was an unusual thing. he was a great guy. i like tim better in the end than i did ford. him better in the end then i did ford. would do a little bit more
and start going with questions. your references to how you felt ford betrayed rockefeller gets g that steve can comment on, too. when your temper came in the book, when you were upset with somebody, it always seemed to be over an issue of trust and loyalty. having some limited involvement in local politics here, which struck me is really that for most politicians, this common theme of the role of trust and loyalty, that something that steve has experience as well. i'm wondering if we could have the two of you take a couple of minutes and indicate -- this may sound like a cliché question to ask about trust and loyalty, but it seems very fundamental to the operation. richard: it is very indigenous and meaningful to politicians,
loyalty. i'm sure steve would agree with me. so much is based on loyalty. nelson rockefeller was a champion of royalty loyalty. if he thought you weren't loyal, you might as will disappear and vaporize because he would not talk to you again could i saw that happen to people. ? wouldn't you agree with tha ? would you agree with that? there's no more teamwork and politics. i was calledasons the iron chancellor is because i would not allow candidates to raise their own money. if you tried to raise her on money when i was chairman, i would put you in and say, listen, you want to raise your own money. great. you can use it all in the
primary, because you never get out of the box if you use your on money. let me show you how fundamental that can be. this genie got out of the bottle and we will never get it back in. it will take forceful leadership to do it. and raiseses out money and gets elected, now they are the incumbent. , a youngson comes in person or new candidate comes in and wants to break in and run against that candidate. tough job. the incumbent has control of the money. they control the money themselves. they raise the money and spend it. they have special interests and all these people supporting them. the new person, unless they are very rich, and this is very unhealthy and i'm sure the founding fathers never wanted it this way, and less you are a very wealthy person, you have to start at the bottom, which is where you did start. , started ringing doorbells
then you go on up the ladder. that can be done. hasraising your own money caused acrimony, people not getting along, brought the process to a total halt, why you don't get anything much done anymore. they go out and raise their own money. i think that has to change. we do need more people to come into politics, so i don't know if you agree with this. if you prevented people from raising their own money and told them that you are good to decide who gets the money -- , but the local level higher the level, the more money is necessary and individual candidates take over. richard: it's not healthy. they lose control. they do what they want. there's just so much money out there. me whenry dismaying to i see a elections and analyze
them, which is a hobby of mine, and i see we have that problem that discourages young people, discourages people who don't , from lot of money getting into the process. a very hard thing to do. before we go to the next phase of questions, do you have anything? i wanted to go back to your term and the vice presidency. >> you said you knew dick cheney when he was chief of staff for ford could he seems to be counter for your notion of standby equipment. i wondered if you had any thoughts about his role as vice president and perhaps what you think incoming vice president biden should learn from that example? it's interesting, the
vice president has his office in the executive building. cheney was moved right into the west wing right next to the president. is extremelyitics important. and that led people to speculate that cheney was running the government, but he wasn't. he had a lot of influence. i have known him intimately for a couple of years, and he comes across as a tough guy to deal with. action, you may not agree with this, i think he is very honest, sincere, and very hard-working. the fact that he has influence on president and you may not like with the president does, it is not likely that a vice president or any one individual affects the president's judgment that much that he really runs the country. about cheney talk in my opinion is not accurate. i have known him a long time. he didn't shoot me. [laughter]
i have got a sweatshirt with a target on the back and a dickthrough it that says, hunt club. [laughter] richard: well -- that's right. it was subliminal. charlton hassan was the head of the nra. heston was the head of the nra. when reagan was up for his second term, i was standing in the atrium where the nominations were about to take place and was not in the mood to listen to the
speeches. i had heard them all so many times, different people giving them, so i was trying to figure out a way to sneak out without being seen, which was tough for me because i am a little conspicuous. sons standing there and my was a page, and pages have to stay there. they run errands for the various elected officials and whatever they are called on to do. i was standing there and in charlton heston. i sneak out the door and go downstairs and talk to the reporters. i always had great respect and affection for reporters. areeeling is that there some you're responsible people like there are in every profession, but generally it is a tough job to be a good reporter.
reporters and fun wanted to go down to the basement of the building where they had these kiosks. they had one from the new york times, the los angeles times, the washington post -- and i got to know all these people. i was down there laughing and joking with them and having fun. the next day, reagan had a luncheon for the republican members of the and the republican governors. i was a senior member of the national committee, so i was invited. you could bring one guest. i brought my son. we are sitting there and there was no head table, just a big like a sun and satellite. we are talking, and incomes don regan, ronald reagan's chief of
staff, president of merrill lynch, which no longer exists, and reagan was a prominent guy. -- don regan was a prominent guy and i knew him because i knew his daughter, and i had talked to him about her. against to lobby him the 1986 tax bill, which killed savings and loans. it was a tough time for the banks. i did not want that legislation passed because i was representing a major company on the new york stock exchange in new york and wanted to represent the company and get this legislation killed. regani'm talking to don and i just finished talking and who walks in question mark charlton heston -- and who walks in? johnson heston. i said to him, mr. heston, i want you to know that i am really glad to meet you and i
thoroughly enjoyed your remarks last night. i wasn't even there. [laughter] me and: so he looks at chuckles and sits down. table andk to my asked me what i said to charlton heston. that i really enjoyed his remarks last night. they said, he gave the pledge of allegiance. [laughter] richard: what can i do? >> this seems to be a good place to go to questions. you have an important job here. if you will pass the microphone. >> you are such a charming guy that i hesitate to ask you an embarrassing question, but those who know me know that i can't resist anyway. that the bige shadow that hangs over the rockefeller administration in new york are the unfortunate events at attica.
there were some people, and i have no comment one way or the other on this, who feel that the government lost control of the state police. i wonder if you could comment on that criticism of rockefeller. you could not be governor of new york for four terms and not get some criticism. he wasn't perfect. i never really knew if he ordered the state leased to do what they did there. i don't blame him. that whole situation was absurd. they were killing each other, holding guards hostage. killed, but that's what happens. , but it make the policy
do support it. i don't think he could have avoided it. they just would give up. it was quite a few days, a week and half, four days? >> the end result, they found that the bullets that killed all those people, including the state police, were fired by the state police, so it wasn't exactly a well handled police action. how many police actions do you see today that are well handled? it is a dangerous business. thatll hold to the fact the whole situation was out of hand and people were dying, and so people died as a result. the me ask you a question, professor, what would you have done? >> i would get out of politics. [laughter] richard: wise answer. >> good answer. >> is there another question
from somebody? if not, we have more. on. some of the students,. come up. richard: when i first ran for office, my friend wrote an article, at bell ringer rings a bell, wasn't it? your first run -- richard: ok. tom wants to know about the story that involved -- there is a lesson. run for town judge the first time i ran for office. this condition of the hair was tough on me when i was a kid. you know how kids are? i hadou names, joke, and
gotten so self-conscious after i got in high school that i would call up a girl for a date and if she accepted i would think she felt sorry for me. day, idid except the felt she thought i looked funny, so i couldn't win. i had a very unhealthy attitude at that time. what tom is talking about is that somewhere along the way i overcame all of that. i made lemonade out of lemons. that's what you have to do with your life. i started to campaign for town judge and the thought occurred to me to hand out combs to every house i went to. people to this day stop me on the street, almost fit years ago, stop me on the street and kid me about it. you got your comb? you got a new comb. and i've made a career out of taking advantage of losing my hair. i resent his basketball players who are saving their heads.
[laughter] richard: where were they when i needed them? when i was trying lawsuits, i used to make jokes about being bald and stuff like that, and that kind of thing is good. people like people who can laugh at themselves. if you do it the right way, it can be a great advantage. people used to say to me, are you ever going to try to grow no, i have itay, insured with lloyd's of london against growth. it would ruin my whole act. [laughter] richard: anything else, tom? >> any of the questions? zack? richard: this is dangerous. this gentleman is the county attorney. >> by the way, we appreciate you planning your him questions [laughter] .
. [laughter] do you is a politician do when political interests and governmental interest start moving in different directions? richard: first of all i'm not sure this what you're looking for, but i will take you this. i'd in a perceive think the political leader should have other jobs. by that i mean one hat should be enough, because as soon as you start doing other things, you run into conflict we have a new county chairman of the republican party here, great guy, but i don't approve of the fact that there is a built-in conflict. you will always be in favor of your on situation. you will never be totally 100% committee to building the party up for everybody, in my opinion. i like this guy very much, but i runs not the way
around. i hope that answered your question. ok. i think part of the problem is that it is hard to get people to take those jobs now. it is a thankless job, county chairman. it's a tough job. it's hard, but we need to do more recruiting in our party anyway. we have to be much more focused, and we need discipline and hard work and all those things. you have to have some fun if you going to really do it right here . >> right over here. the gentleman in the sweater. >> you indicated you are close to the media. you like to talk to the washington post. >> by the way, they are here tonight. [laughter] i didn't mean to imply
that i don't like -- the city newspaper was always good to me when i was a young guy. >> i was just curious. richard: back to your question. >> i was just curious how you changed froma has 30 years ago, 40 years ago, their role and how they report the news and so forth, and what your observations on the media? richard: i will take you that i have an enormous respect for the and ofecause newspapers, course i am a newspaper person, i like newspapers, but television and radio, too. i think the media stands between the people and dictatorial government. i think freedom of speech, freedom of the press, are so fundamental that if they make some mistakes, that is part of the price of doing business.
i really feel and have always -- how elsee media will we reach the people? how will we get our policies across? when i was a judge, i'm still proud of the decision i made in a constitutional case where the city tried to force the newspapers to pay license fees to sell the newspapers from machines on the sidewalks. it was a big issue. it comes up every once in a while, and i sided with the newspapers because i felt that they had to be unfettered, able to do their thing. it was a long decision and a lot of reasoning, but it comes down to the fact that with a few exceptions the newspapers and the media, print media in particular because is not soundbites, stand between the people and anarchy, dictatorial
policies, all those kinds of things. reporting,hink the that it is the same way? soundbites and so answers, that kind of thing, but still there are some great newspapers out there. they morning i love to read new york times, great newspaper. i like the analytical part of it. i think it is interesting. it has changed. everything changes. there are responsible reporters. that article that jim referred to in the buffalo news by mccarthy, it was very well
written and very responsible. there are a lot of good reporters out there. >> i noticed you mentioned the dnc and the new york times, do you pick up the city each we? [laughter] richard: i see it now and then. it is on the racks. >> i'm trying to help here. [laughter] no, i don't pick it up every day, but i do it see it. it's around. >> i have to have a little fun. i have been on good behavior. richard: i do read it. i have read it on occasion. >> we have time for one or two bank more. over here. thank you. >> can you talk about the transition from politicians to offer? author, and are you already at work on your second book? [laughter] richard: the transition has been
a lot of fun. this is been a new experience. i wrote a book a few years ago -- it was more of a pamphlet. i have to be honest with you, i get a big charge when i read in , because that is a new thing to me. i never expected that. you get to a certain point in your life or you have accumulated so many stories, so much information, you feel you want to have something left for your family to find out what you are doing and all that went on. it is kind of a legacy. has been very important in my life to have done this, even know i will take you that i nearly abandoned it about 50 times. it is a lot of work, a lot more than i thought. it is tough. it consumes you. experience. i have enjoyed it.
i'm still enjoying it. we have had 15 of these booksignings, and we have already in the pipeline another eight going all the way into april, and i am going away for a while, so i'm not going to do too many of these for a while. i think it's time to get a little fresh perspective, then i will come back and do more. i'm just delighted -- i thought when the election took place that my book would go -- because it is a political book. it didn't happen. the opposite happened. that tells me the book is well-written and fun, and people are getting a big kick out of it. i get fan mail now. i have a pile of fan mail at home. people keep writing and saying how much they enjoy the book, that it is a page turner, and it makes you feel good. i am thinking about another book. i have a bunch of stories, but i
didn't realize i left them out of this book. i started thinking about them and i have started taking notes so i won't forget the stories, so maybe i will write a sequel. it's funny you mentioned, we are number 13 by the way, so when he mentions this at dinner tonight, i leaned over to the chairman and said, i would orher have been number 12 14, but given the turnout tonight, i think 13 has been a lucky number. 13 is a lucky number. god willing, i'm about to have my 13th grandchild. [applause] >> we can probably step in one more question -- yes, would you bring the microphone over to the city newspaper. [laughter] >> how much is this worth to you? [laughter] richard: i think i am getting set up here. >> there is no set up. i was curious because you
referenced a time when new york state was really at the top of its game. you are from a time where you were talking about a state that reallylly not even second to california, and now we are a state that has a lot of dysfunction. business wise we are 49th in terms of friendliness to business and so forth. what would you say -- i know this is a little bit of an economic and political science question, but what has happened? onhard: most people blame it an over exerted tax policy threatening business and spending way beyond our means. i don't think it is quite that simple. new york is a very unusual state. every once in a while a question crops up, why doesn't new york
-- why doesn't upstate become to states and break away from new york city. new york city without newark state is like a lay without a stage. -- without new york state is like a play without a stage. lifestyle,s, the they are all very attractive, but they cost money. right now we are in tough straits economically. i think spending is out of control. i have always felt that in the legislature. i think there are a lot of mistakes being made. -- iwhat really bothers me will tell you what really bothers me is when you talk about the state of assembly could they hold the judicial system hostage. assembly will tell you that we are not giving judges a race unless we get a rage. that is fundamentally flawed and should not be that way.
there is a lot of trouble in the legislature. people are gloating, it's great, the house is democrat, and the governor -- that is the worst thing that could happen to them. you know why? they have no one else to blame when they screw up. believe me, they will screw up. that is the nature of politics. you will get people fighting amongst themselves. it is always better when you have somebody else to blame. into -- mygoing mentor saying, we have a problem . he was all excited that we had one. the problem is we had no one else to blame. its troop you two years later, we were knocked out of office. you don't want to gloat about the results of an election,
because coming around the corner is a right cross that will take you out of the ballgame. sorry, a right star of david. [laughter] note, on that religious we will bring this to a close good i would like to thank all of you for coming out here tonight. [applause] great have made for a audience. nd i would like to thank our students, who we did admittedly bribed, but i hope they walk away with more than to credits and having been exposed to one of the giants of new york state politics. but clearly again thank steve for coming here and adding to the discussion.
more creditdeserves than the role he has gotten tonight, because i got to be the handledhead, while cam all the logistics for this event, so i want to thank him on a personal note. most importantly, i would like to thank richard rosenbaum for taking time out of his busy schedule, but more importantly for producing this wonderful available-for-sale as soon as we end this. "no room for democracy: the triumph of ego over common published by rit press. again, i thank you all for coming. enjoy some coffee. there are still some refreshments over there. once again, thank you very much, and please drive safe. richard rosenbaum. [laughter] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] richard: thank you very much. thank you for coming.
i enjoyed it more than you did. [laughter] richard: i will go out here and hope somebody buys the book. [laughter] history bookshelf, hear from the country's best-known american history writers of the past decade every saturday at 4:00 p.m. eastern. you can watch any of our programs at any time when you visit our website c-span.org/history. you are watching american history tv come all weekend, every weekend, on c-span3. [applause] cycle, we areion reminded how important it is to be informed. >> c-span is a home for political junkies. >> is a great way for us to stay informed. >> there are a lot of c-span fans on the hill. >> there's so much more c-span does to make sure people know what is going on inside.
next, margaret oppenheimer talks about her book, "the remarkable rise of eliza jumel: a story of marriage and money in the early republic ." poverty, eliza jumel became one of the richest woman in new york. the author describes her unusual life, including her marriage to aaron burr. this is a 50-minute event. >> welcome back to lunch and learn at the museum of american finance. there's been a big resurgence of this year all things hamilton. now we are going to learn more about aaron burr and we are going to learn it from margaret oppenheimer. this is her third book. she's written extensive