tv Charlie Rose PBS July 8, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT
>> glor: welcome to the program. i'm jeff glor of cbs news filling in for charlie rose who is away this week. we begin with al hunt's interview with senator bernie sanders. >> this country faces enormous crises. i don't honestly know how we would survive four years of a donald trump, how we would survive a person who is trying to divide us up, who is running his campaign on bigotry, who doesn't even recognize the reality of climate change, who wants to give hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to the top 2% of 1%, who sin difficulting another group every day. >> glor: we continue with the summer olympics in rio. >> the olympics have this kind of unique thing in that once the games start you forget a little
about the surroundings and the outside because the performances are so great. you see someone like michael phelps or carrie walsh jennings. and the sport often supersedes the surroundings. this feels different, though. >> we can both appreciate the athletes on the field at the same time we raise the important criticisms about what's happening in rio but the olympics in general. >> glor: rich cohen, author of the sun, moon and the rolling stones. >> when i was a did i heard in the rolling stones everything dirty and nasty that i wanted to try when i was older. they were like a gang, the outsiders or westside story. it wasn't just the music, it was the band, the dirtiness and nastiness and infighting, that was all in the music. >> glor: al hunt with bernie
sanders, the sum or links and the rolling stones, when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> glor: bernie sanders stunned the political world this year by running a very competitive race with hillary clinton for the democratic presidential nomination. he received more than 12 million votes in the primaries and caucuses. she got 3.7 million more and will be officially nominated in
philadelphia in less than three weeks, but big questions remain for challenger. will he endorse clinton? how enthusiastically, what are the important elements in the democratic platform and any rules changes and how or whether his candidacy has changed the party. we are pleased to welcome senator sanders with us tonight. when are you going to endorse hillary? >> our campaigns are working together. i said i'd endorse the winner of the democratic primary. >> hunt: there are reports it could come next tuesday in new hampshire. >> coming together on running the issues and running the campaign that needs to be run to make sure donald trump doesn't become president. >> hunt: are there any other questions that have to be resolved on the platform?
>> we're working together but at the end of the day, we're going to be united and do everything we can to make sure that donald trump does not become president. >> hunt: final question, will you endorse her before the republican primary? >> we are working to make sure that we can be most effective, most effective in making sure that somebody who would be a disaster for this country, mr. donald trump, does not become -- >> hunt: can i get it out of you before -- >> that's not what the important issue is. the important issue is how we work together. how we rally the american people, how we address the major crises at the we face and how we go on to transform the -- >> hunt: when you do this, let me ask you how active and enthusiastic you will be. a number of your party are thinking of addressing one of the other parties. what do you say so them? >> this country faces emorms crises.
edon't honestly -- i don't honestly know how we would survive four years of a donald trump, how we would survive a person who is trying to divide us, who is running his campaign on bigotry, who doesn't recognize the reality of climate change, who wants give hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to the top two tenths of one%, who seems intent on insultings a different group every day, whether mexican-americans, women -- >> hunt: so a vote for stein or johnson would be? >> you're talking to someone who is the longest serving independent in the congress. my own view is we have to do everything we can to defeat donald trump and elect hillary clinton. >> hunt: let's talk about some of the issues. you were pleased with your college affordability plan, she
moved closer to your position on that. what are some of the other things you want to see her move on before the platform is finalized? >> it's not a question of her moving. it's a question of the democratic party and secretary clinton addressing the major crises that we face. >> hunt: what are some of the other crises? >> you know, one of the issues that we have to talk about is a nation -- as a nation is focus on the real issues. what are the real issues? for 40 years the middle class in this country has been disappearing. we have go desk levels of wealth income inequality. the top 1 tenth of one% now owns as much wealth as the bottom 90%, are we allowed to talk about that? >> hunt: are you satisfied the platform talks about that? >> this is the most progressive platform in the democratic party. >> hunt: what has to be in the plat form. >> i want to see very specific
language about raising the minimum wage to $15. i believe in this country, people who work 40 hours a week should not be living in poverty. >> hunt: they call for it now, but it needs to go further? >> it needs to be clear. we need to make sure that the t.p.p., which is in my opinion a continuation of the disastrous trade policies of the past, who led to a race to the bottom, we should be very clear saying that should not come up in the lame duck session. >> hunt: senator sanders, that would be a direct slap at barack obama who is the most popular figure and is most popular democrat in the party right now. i know you're opposed to it. opposing it is not a slap, but saying i'm sorry, mr. president, you can't bring that up in a lame duck. >> i had the impression we lived in a democratic society. >> hunt: we do.
and i had the impression that the overwhelming majority of the democrats in the house and senate areo supposed to the t.p.p. i am a great fan of barack obama but he's not right all the time. i'm not right all the time, you're not right all the time, what democracy is about is the willingness -- >> hunt: do you think the clinton people will agree to putting a plank in that says no t.p.p. in the lame duck, from your conversations? >> you will have to ask secretary clinton. we are working as hard as we can to make that happen. when we can ask ourselves why the middle class is in decline, why new mexico income wealth is going to the top 1%, one of the reasons is a disastrous trade policy that forced american workers who compete around the world to make pennies an hour. when you see people powerless, you have an investor at a time dispute system in the t.p.p.
which says, mining other things, that companies like transcanada pushing for keystone pipeline which was reject bid the president, they can go to a third-party tribunal and ask for billions of dollars from the united states government. you are lessening democracy as a result of this t.p.p. >> hunt: in the draft so far a ban on fracking and call for carbon tax, neither one is in the draft so far. do you expect them or insist they be in the final. final? >> ask me about should we have them. the answer is i happen to believe that climate change is an extraordinary crisis facing this planet and i believe that if we continue to allow the fossil fuel industry to go their merry way, the planet that your grandchildren will inherit may not be a particularly habitable planet. so i think we have got to move
aggressively in every way we can and i think we need a tax on carbon, we need to end fracking today. >> hunt: i'm not trying to give you a trick question or media question. what i'm trying to find out is how important are those provisions for you to be an enthusiastic campaigner? >> they are important for my grandchildren and your grandchildren and billions of people on this planet. that's what they're important for. this is not a political issue. it happens to be donald trump happens to believe climate change is a hoax. i think donald trump is out of his mind because the entire scientific community believes climate change is real and they have told us they have underestimated the crisis we face. so i am going to try to be as aggressive as i can on this issue, not for political reasons or to embarrass anybody, but to make it clear the united states has to lead the world, china, india, russia will follow us but we are fighting for the sphiewch of this planet.
>> hunt: the center piece of your campaign was campaign finance reform, the rigged system as you called it -- >> that's what i called it. that's a fact. >> hunt: yes. and hillary clinton said, yeah, she agrees. you know, i remember bill clinton said that in 1993 and 1992 and nothing happened. barack obama said that in 2008 and nothing happened. presidents seem to give lip service to that and then it becomes -- >> i don't think that's quite fair. >> hunt: i'm not saying they changed positions, it -- >> you can't in this case cast equal blame. you have a republican party whose leader mitch mcconnell, you know what mitch thinks? mitch thinks citizens united did not go far enough. mitch thinks we should allow the koch brothers and billionaires to employ candidates. you want to run united states senate? the koch brothers will give you a check for a few hundred million dollars. that's mcconnell's view. that's not the president or
hillary clinton's view. so you may argue maybe democrats haven't been as strong as they should have been, but on this one all the blame rests with the reps who love the idea that the koch brothers and other billionaires can finance their campaigns in. my view, we have to overturn this disastrous citizens united and go further and move to public funding of elections. let me be very clear, this country is moving toward an oligarch form of society where you have a handful of billionaire families controlling everything in. terms to have the united states senate, koch brothers are pouring tens of millions of dollars trying to gain control of the u.s. senate. is that appropriate? i think not. >> hunt: much of what we're talking about is what goes in the party platform. barney frank forme member of congress says platforms are the miss congeniality of a beauty contest, they are likely irrelevant. >> i strongly disagree. they've become the blueprint for the future. i'm not saying every plank in
the platform is converted into legislation, but it is the basis for which the party stands, and one of the other things i'm going to fight for is the make the platform the more relevant document and in fact demand that party move forward based on what's in the platform. >> hunt: not just about the platform but say this is the mandate. >> yes. >> hunt: you're saying being allowed to vote in all the primaries, from your conversations, do you think that's going to happen? >> there are differences of opinion, but i think we can win this one because, on the surface, if you go to a state like new york state, 3 million people in new york state who declared themselves as independents could not participate in either the democratic or republican primary, could not play a role in selecting who the candidate could be to run for president, i think that's on the surface
pretty stupid. >> hunt: the idea of caucuses is to have more participation. >> i think we should look at caucuses. what i like about caucuses, al, is it demands more of people. i believe in democracy. i want to see people yelling and screaming and arguing about the important issues facing america. i want to see the media start focusing on the real issues facing america rather than personalities and conflicts all the time. so i like the idea that people have to spend a couple of hours at a caucus and talking and arguing with their neighbors. on the other hand, what i recognize is that the caucuses at 7:00 in the evening, you know what, you may be working, baby sitting, on the night shift you can't come out. so i think a reasonable compromise is what you call a firehouse caucus, and that is you can come in anytime during the day, cast your ballot. if you want to stay for a prolonged debate and discussion, you can do that as well. >> hunt: if you did that and allow independents to vote in primaries in 2020, you would be
pleased. >> yes. >> hunt: a number of sanders support, says in picking hillary clinton's running mate ken cain woulrunning -- saying timkaine . >> i believe he's a decent guy. i believe we should have as our vice presidential nominee a very strong progressive voice, somebody who has a history of standing up to big money interests, somebody who is going to fight for the working families of this country and who has a history of doing that. >> hunt: does tim kaine meet that test? >> i don't want to comment on tim kaine. >> hunt: these sanders representing themselves as sanders people -- >> there are 13 million sanders people and all have a different opinion. tim kaine is a very decent guy. i'm not getting involved in that. what i am going to tell you is there is a lot of anger and frustration out there. people feel that washington does not listen to them, they're working longer hours for lower
wages, they're worried about their kids' future, childcare, they want a government that responds to them, not wealthy campaign contributors. my suggestion is let's have someone who's a real fighting for the working class and middle class families. >> hunt: in asking the question, one comes away with the impression you don't think tim kaine quite meets that test. >> with all due respect, this is media stuff. >> hunt: does elizabeth warren meet the test? >> i would be pleased if she were picked. >> hunt: there are some democrats -- let me ask you this, did hillary clinton win this nomination fair and square? >> well, let me answer it in this way -- we knew what the rules were when we went in. we new that in new york state 3 million people who were
independents were not allowed to vote, and that there were many closed primaries along the way. i was, you know -- we knew what we were getting into. i think the rules in many cases are absurd but we knew what we were getting into, of course. >> hunt: so in that sense, she won it fair and square. am i right, if there had been different rules, you're saying who knows what the outcome could have been. >> yes. >> hunt: the james comey report on her private email server, if that had come two months earlier, would it have changed the outcome? >> i don't know. what media does is spend a lot of time talking about hillary clinton or donald trump or bernie sanders. but you know what the american people want? they want to know why their jobs went to china, that's what they'd like to talk about. they want to know why the koch brothers can spend tens of millions of dollars in a so-called democratic society to elect the united states senate.
they want to know about the morality of so few having so much and us having the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major country in the world and what i find myself in terms of media having to keep talking about the issues and not getting involved in hillary clinton and donald trump. let's talk about the issues facing the american people. if you do that, which candidate is better able to respond to those crises, and i think hillary clinton is very clearly. >> hunt: the reason i raise that is the american people also care about trust and surely care about the issues you're talking about and this seems to go to the question of trust. paul ryan, the speakerrer of the house, said yesterday that hillary clinton should not be able to get security briefings. >> did he? i am likely shocked paul would say that. let me make this wild guess that tomorrow the republicans will say everything else. let me make another wild guess that they will try to make this the major issue to have the campaign. let me also make a guess that media will not talk about the agenda of the republican party which is to give huge tax breaks to billionaires, that they
reject the science on climate change, that they want to cut social security, medicare and medicaid. what do you think, al, is that a good guess? >> hunt: senator, you're a good guesser on these things, but i think what you're saying is this is not a relevant issue. >> no, it is a relevant issue, and donald trump's business background is a relevant issue. i don't mean to suggest these are not serious issues, but what are more serious issues is the disappearance of the middle class of this country. i have been around the country. i have gone to native american indian reservations where the life expectancy is of a third world country. i have been in areas where, when people turn on the drinking water, the water cannot be consumed because it is full of pesticides. i have seen people working incredibly long hours and not making enough money to take care of their families. i've seen kids whose dreams were to go to college, not being able to go to college. all people trying to live,
seniors trying to live on $10,000 a year social security. how often do we talk about that, al? >> hunt: some. 1% of hillary's e-mails? >> hunt: but to just wrap at the up, what you're saying is, yes, it's a serious issue, but you don't agree with paul ryan that she should be denied security clearance. >> that's correct. >> hunt: let me ask you about young voters. you had great appeal. >> you think charm did that? >> hunt: i think it was. it's ca charisma. (laughter) no, i give all the credit to your wife. >> you may be right. >> hunt: donald trump says, you know, on a lot of the issues that the young people were attracted to bernie on the system is corrupt, the system is rigged, corporations have too much power, trade deals are bad. i'm closer to bernie than hillary clinton. >> let me say, it doesn't give me pleasure to say this because i have many conservative friends whom i like and respect, who honestly believe what they believe, but i have to say that
donald trump is a pathological liar, and i think that's not just me saying it. many reps will say the same thing, that he says things which are just blatantly not true. politicians are all known to stretch things a little bit, no doubt. he lies all the time. so i think whatever he says, you know, if he tells you it's sunny outside, take a hard look to see whether the sun is shining. he just does not tell the truth. i think what he is trying to do is in a very opportunistic way try to win votes that may have come to me, but i don't think he will be successful in that regard. >> hunt: and young voters should not listen to that? >> what young voters want, i think -- here's what i think a lot of the young people -- first of all, by definition, young people are idealistic. they understand that this country can be so much more than it is right now and they're looking out there and worried about climate change and criminal justice and racism and
sexism, and you know what else they're worried about, al? for the first time in the modern history of this country, unless we change it, they're going to have a lower standard of living than my generation. we're moving in the wrong direction, and they don't accept that. they are tired of living school $50,000, $60,000 in debt and not being able to get married or have kids. so i don't think that the young people will fall for donald trump because one thing about the young people today which is a beautiful thing is they reject in a very strong way bigotry and sexism and racism and homophobia. >> hunt: it's clear that you did not come away from this campaign with an especially high regard for the media. >> yes. >> hunt: just elaborate on why. >> it's not a personal thing. >> hunt: right. it's because even some of the questions we discussed today, this campaign is not about hillary clinton. it is not about donald trump. it is not about bernie sanders. it is about the american people.
now you tell me, you're a media guy, how much time do we really talk about the decline of the middle class? should we be talking about as a nation the morality of so few having so much and so many having so little? do we talk about it at all? do we talk about the pharmaceutical industry making -- 50 top five companies making $50 billion in profits last year while charging the american people the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs? and is it possible we don't talk about it because of the ads we see going to the tv industry? am i right? >> hunt: i'm not going to speak for the entire industry, but it's not just the ads. you're saying the broadcast and printout list -- >> are multi-national corporations who clearly have a bias. >> hunt: senator, as you reflect back ton this campaign, i know it's hard to do because it's just ending right now, but what are your good thoughts, and do you have regrets? >> well, a lot of beautiful
thoughts, and i'll tell you, al, what the most beautiful thought of all is that i am optimistic about the future of this country, because i have spoken to so many people, working people, young people who really, really want to change this country for the better. i've seen their eyes of hope, of willingness to stand up and fight, and that is what has inspired me and will continue to inspire me. so, politically, what we have got to do is take that energy of those young people who now, in many instances, do not feel welcome into the political process, to figure out ways they can be involved and help transform this country. >> hunt: any regrets? well, look, if you think back, you always could have done things differently and we certainly could have, but i think it's fair to say that we did a lot better than most people said we would, that we ran a great campaign, had a great staff, so i think it would be an extraordinary experience. i just want to thank so many millions of people who have been
responsive and supportive and, you know, the political revolution continues. we're not giving up. >> hunt: and return to the senate? >> that is an understatement. >> hunt: senator sanders, thank you for being with us. back in just a moment. >> glor: the 2016 sum or links begin in a month in rio. top golfers say they will not compete in brazil because of zika. the united states is to be among the top swimmers. jewels boycoof from rio.
jules, so much in the news regarding the to rio. you are there now. what is the mood and what do you make of where the preparations are at? >> well, i lived here from august through december 2015, and at that time it was really difficult to find anybody excited about the olympics. i returned this week. the overall sentiment i would say is a sort of selective shrug, if not people upset the olympics are here. activists and citizens were raising a number of questions about the games about the money spent here, to false promises. you see the bay was supposed to be cleaned up for the olympics and hast been at all -- and hasn't been at all. >> glor: what are they most worried about, for most who live there? >> i think it depends on who you
talk to. i talked yesterday to some environmental activists and thinkers and ghana barra bay sticks to their side. 80% of the water flowing into the bay would have been treated and would have been a terrific legacy for everyday people of rio. statistics came out and said the number was 21%, closer to. science said if you ingest three teaspoons of water behind me, you have a 99% chance of catch ago virus. and while there will be wind surfing and sailing in the body of water, the people of rio were hoping to get it cleaned up to swim and with be safe as well. that's a major concern and a major disappointment. >> glor: so water pollution, zika, doping concerns, never mind political unrest. >> and the other day body parts
washed up on copacabana beach. there are also the police. 85,000 security officials on hand to police the game, double the number we saw in london. you might think that's great, we have a lot of security officials to be there to keep the peace. to tell you the truth, the brazilian security officials here have a rough track record. amnesty international found one in five homicides in brazil is carried out by security officials. so it's really raised a lot of questions for people who live here, who's going to keep an eye on those who are keeping an eye on the olympic events and the protests that could even chute around them? >> glor: before every one of the games, there are major concerns. how many of the concerns go away when the games actually start and is that the right way to think about things? >> good question. first of all, the olympic motto maybe should be faster, higher disaster given what we've heard,
at this point. my first one was 2002, and i remember in the shadow of 9/11 seeing soldiers walking around and people thinking about, oh, man, are the olympics safe, even salt lake. and i sochi, the thought of terrorism. the olympics have the unique thing in that once the games start, you forget a little bit about the surroundings and the outside because the performances are so great. you see someone like michael phelps in the pool or the beach ball players like carrie walsh jennings. and the sport often supersedes what is surrounding. this feels different, though, and what's interesting what jules said, having covered six of these, the runup feels different, it feels brazil is a mess infrastructurely as well asive thing else going on in
that country from economics to security, and maybe they will eventually pull it off and keep people safe, but at least in myy olympic experience, i've not seen a pre-runup that feels this foreboding than what i've seen in rio. >> glor: brazil hosted the world cup two years ago. are there any lessons to be taken from that? >> yes, i think the people here have taken a lot of lessons. again, a lot of promises were made around the world cup and many have not been followed through. so a lot of promises made about the olympics, people don't give them much credence whatsoever. what you guys are pointing to is a larger pattern of olympics in the 21st century. you mentioned athens, beijing. there is a pattern. some of the elements are amplified in rio, but we've seen some of the same dynamics, even in london where the costs went through the roof, and that's one to have the patterns in the
21st century. it's like etch asketch economics. we've seen it in london where it was supposed to be about $3.8 billion and ended up being about $18 billion, a conservative estimate. same here. costs have gone through the roof in a place where hospitals are being shuttered, social services are being dialed back and where lots of people here can think of plenty of uses for money that's being spent on the games. >> glor: which leads to cities in only cases running away from the games. boston was under consideration in 2024 and because so many people spoke up and there was so much concern, they dropped it. >> and in, no if you remember, just how much of a backlash was there from citizens who didn't want the games. we're getting to a point where, you know, it's sort of interesting what gel jules saidi was in athens and i've seen the
games, the facilities are white elephants, they don't exist anymore. so the i.o.c. promised somehow this transforms a city, it's not the case. i wonder if we're just at a point where the games should just -- if you even conceive that they are still a noble affair, and i think they are at least athletically, maybe there should only be a certain number of cities to host the games and rotate around the particular cities because they can handle it infrastructure-wise and they don't end up crippling the economies, which i think we sadly too often see at this point. >> glor: jules, something to that? >> there is absolutely something to that. you look at the list biddings at the -- the last biddings, the
international committee went with bay i didn' beijing, not af democracy by any means. the cities public said no from krakow to munich to switzerland to stockholm said, no, we don't want those olympics, so maybe rotating among a small number of cities is the way forward. the international olympic committee is in slow motion crisis and they need to figure it out. >> glor: haven't they always? inevitably they're a selfish organization that often picks sites for games for reasons that are not fan friendly, that are noessarily city friendly. it does just get back to something you brought up before. so often when the events start and we get sort of nbc-fied, we fall in love with stories and
we'll see golf for the first time and that will be cool and you think bolt will probably pull off another double and we forget about all this stuff. and what's interesting and jules can speak to this, they won't forget about it in the city. they foot the beal and have to deal with the aftermath. in the rest of the united states, we fall in love for 17 days and then not bothered by it again. >> glor: jules, the day after the olympics, what does roy look like? >> hopefully everything will be go smoothly and people won't get hurt. the athletics will look great. so i think you will see a collective sigh and go back to the garden variety political and economic crises that are engulfing the country now. let's not forget the president might be impeached during the olympics. looks like the final vote will happen after. my guess is everyone will turn their attention to the potential impeachment of the president of
brazil. >> glor: about the athletics, what are you most looking forward to? >> there is a lot to look forward to. one thing that's really interesting about this olympics is they're going to be a team of world refugees marching in behind the olympic flag. so athletes from syria south sudan, ethiopia, they'll goat to participate. they have been training with other countries' national olympic committees. there will be about ten athletes. that will help raise the issue of refugees around the world and put it on the burner of the world at the olympics. we can appreciate the athletes on the field at the same time raising important criticisms about what's happening in rio and with the olympics more generally. one athlete i'm excited about is fencer from team g.b.,
great britain, lamed lawrence hallstead -- named lawrence hallstead. he said we're athletes and we should speak out together and shouldn't be afraid of that. if we see injustice as athletes, we should stand against it. so i will be rooting for him as well because you can bet he's catch ago lot of flack for standing up in that way. >> glor: if any country needs attention diverted and uplifted it may be britain athletically and politically. richard, for you, the biggest athletic, the phelps swan song? >> between phelps and katy ladecky, missy franklin comes back, i think swimming will be extraordinarily of interesto the american public, i think gymnastics will as well. we saw gabby douglas glow up
last time. i'm a big track and field fan, and i love the prints mostly because i'm show. one of the great moments for me at the olympics has always been the moment before the 100 where the entire state is just silent and it's unlike any other silence you ever hear. the gun goes off and then these guys go. it's been just a pleasure to watch. you've seen bolt run. i'll be looking for, assuming he's healthy and i imagine he will be in a couple of days, i'm looking forward to see him go after the hundred for the last time. >> glor: is gal a threat? i think so but bolt has been an incredible performer in the big events. he's the greatest track athlete in my time and if he tripled back-to-back to back, i think you have to think of him as one of the greatest athletes we've ever seen. >> glor: we won't see the
russian athletes. >> the only ones who applied and got the i.o.c. give them permission to excrete in track and field. we won't see them en masse. doping will be a significant issue at these olympics because it always is and certainly with a lack of russians competing in track and field it becomes a bigger issue. >> glor: is there an olympic issue people aren't paying attention to now that you think deserves attention? >> well, i think, once these games are over, the attention will turn to tokyo the next summer olympics. a bribery scandal there, $2 million around the voting around the two '20 games there. >> glor: thank you to both of you. >> thank you.
>> glor: in 1994 a young rolling stone reporter got the chance of a life time, an interview with rock and roll legend keith richards. rich cohen was the reporter and the interview added to his life long obsession with the stones. he wrote a book cataloging his years with the band along with never before interviews with rock and roll legends, called "the sun, the moon and the rolling stones," the chicago tribune calls the book masterful and goes on to say hundreds of books have been written about this particular band and the rank among the very best of the bunch. so pleased to have rich cohen back at the table. >> thanks for having me. >> glor: first time for us about the table but not the first time for us talking. i said of you before and just noted here, one to have the great things about a book like this is so much has been written about the stones, but you bring this perspective to it that is unique, and that goes back to not just when you met them in '94 but your childhood. >> when i was a little kid, i'm
the youngest brother, and my was rhinestone cowboy by glen campbell. when i felt sorry for myself, i used to lay in bed and listen to it. i called it rhinestone therapy. my brother moved to the at tick and locked the doors to all comers. i heard the cow bell, that was honky tonk women. that picked me up and levitated me up into his room where i heard just enough of it before he beat me back downstairs but kind of ruined me for life and made me a life-long rolling stones fan. after college, i got this experience of going around to travel with the stones. >> glor: you called your brother's room heaven. >> i said he ascended to heaven, no parents, you could do whatever you want, because my parents were too lazy to walk up the extra flight of stairs. >> glor: let's talk about where it began with you and the
stones. this book goes back to the blues. >> i'm from chicago. i got interested in blues going to the checker board lounge, buddy guy's club, because they'd serve your red wine when your opinion 14 years old. i went there as a kid. the rolling stones played there, muddy waters played there. i read about this club in amsterdam, the milky way, sitting there at a table and hearing muddy waters sing, you know, i'm a man, and it was almost like you could hear the music turning from the delta blues into the rock and roll, picking up all the steel that the trains at the illinois central went through, coming through chicago where guys like muddy waters had to plug in their acoustic instruments to be heard over the crowd and the music getting picked up by mick jagger and keith richards as kids in england and heard for them like this brand-new thing,
they try to copy it and they change it and bring it wack to chicago and record their second record at 2120 south michigan avenue chess records, sort of bringing the music back to the city. >> glor: and some were more comfortable about the way that cop idea and changed and evolved than others. >> it's the whole idea. is it theft, appropriation? you know, there's a great line by some jazz musician which is you can't steal a gift, in a way. the guys like muddy waters liked the rolling stones because they recognized that what the rolling stones were going doing was not what pat boone was doing. they weren't making these covers of tooty fruity like pat boone, they were actually doing something interesting and new. when al wolf went to england and needed a backup band, i think he got the yard birds. they were an incredible blues band. if you hear little red rooster of the rolling stones, it's up
there with the original versions of it. >> glor: for so many, it was beatles and stones. for you, there was always that comparison. >> early on, the they recognized the beatles filled the niche, they were the good guys, wearing the white hats. the stones could wear the black hats. so the beatles became love and the stones became sex. when i was a kid, i heard the rolling stones was everything dirty and nasty i wanted to try when i was older. the rolling stones were like a gang, it was like the outsiders, or west side story and you felt like the head of the gang was megan keith. so it wasn't just the music, it was the band and the dirtiness and fighting and infighting. >> glor: andrew at a very young age brought that out. >> basically jesus had paul, elvis had the colonel and the stones add andrew lou goldman.
before they had him it was from the rolling stones. they had six members and he made them lose a member and he fit them into the niches. when office did i heard somebody describe them they were so ugly they're attractive and that was going to be the stones and kind of the opposite of the beatles. >> glor: i asked andrew years ago what was the key to the success of the rolling stones and he said they showed up. >> yeah. well, actually, they literally showed up. early on there was a concert that the band that became the kings hat couldn't show up because there was a snowstorm and the stones filled that gig and it became regular and it became the craw daddy club that made them a sensation. they didn't know if they should play the first night because there was three people. they say you play and don't punish the people who did come
for the sins of the people who didn't. >> one to have the guys who did unfortunately have a problem showing up was brian jones, another band member who was lost for various reasons. andrew was involved in those machinations as well. for you, it must have been difficult to revisit some of that or talk to keith and nick about that. >> it's interesting. to me, the title of the book is the sun and the moon and the rolling stones, that's because when i first interviewed keith and told him when i was born which is 1968, he started to laugh and said, man, you should be answering my questions. what's it look for you, the sun, the moon, the rolling stones. brian jones died in 1969. i was the kid who grew up in the post-brian jones era. it was his band. he was the great musician. he named them, chose their set
list. the stones became successful, he lost control of the band. one of the things i loved so much about the rolling stones is all the things you have with your own friends, all the problems and all the feuds, they had. they are completely humenan that way and they would have a tendency to single a guy out and pick on him until he went insane and for a while that became brian jones and it's sort of agonizing to read about limit because he was such a great musician and his sound was so important in the music but you knew he was being driven slowly insane by the fact he had lost control of the band and became a drug casualty. and the rolling stones i grew up with is sort of built on the remains of this brian jones rolling stones. so to me it's like discovering the antique age. >> glor: so you were already so read in and listened in to the legend that is this band and then you start working for rolling stone and you obviously did some reporting beforehand but you get this assignment. >> right. it's funny when i first interviewed with roll stone, i
wanted to meet with winter, and someone said if he asks you who would you want to interview more than anyone in twocialtiond don't answer him because he won't let you. he asked me and i said bruce springsteen. six months later he said, how would you like to go out on the road with the rolling stones? i'm on a plane, fly to toronto and show up where keith had been busted. >> glor: yan as well. she said you're on rocken toll time, -- rock and roll time, they work all night. we go into a grade school and you can hear the brown sugar rif going lo the whole school. there in the grade school gym which was a place of torture for
many of us, the rolling stones have taken it over and they just, i watch them for about two weeks play through their entire catalog putting together their show, and that was probably the decision to be a reporter and not to go to law school like my parents wanted was sort of justified by those two weeks of me being the only audience for the rolling stones. >> glor: you said that was probably the best concert experience you had. >> just before they went on the voodoo lounge tour they did a pop-up show in toronto to play before a live audience. keith richards said the reason we keep playing is this music doesn't exist till it's in front of a live audience. people always say, well, i saw rolling stone at the meadow lands and they were pretty good. i said, you haven't seen the rolling stones. the rolling stones exist at a bar at 3:00 in the morning when everyone is drunk and keith richards is in the groove and i got to see them in that
environment in toronto and you realize what they are which is the greatest bar band in the history of the world. >> glor: you talked much more with keith than nick. you write unsparringly about mick at times and are candid in your estimation of what his successes and failures are. what was it about keith richards that sort of turned on that light for you? >> well, the thing that's great about the stones is it's the ying and yang of kit an -- of kh and mick. i worked with mick earlier. he has the pop star sense of he doesn't want to let you know who he is. he sort of remains mysterious and removed like prince, bob dylan, he has that ability. keith seems to have found out how to live in the world and comfortable in the world and his
own skin. i would say there is a keith richards how-to book like one for frank sinatra. there is none for mick jagger because he's a mystery. >> glor: you say you have the interviews, mick in particular, and you look at the transcript and you realize he didn't say much about anything and keith is the opposite. >opposite. i thought i got scoops about mick and got the tapes back and then there's nothing here. i would say it's like fishing and you think you've got a huge fish, you come back and you have a tire. keith, he mumbles, you can't understand him. sometimes he would start laughing as if he realized how amazing and ridiculous his life is and you would get those transcripts back and it's brilliant. those two guys together are the rolling stones. >> glor: mick's folks ripped
you after the first article came out. >> they said you mentioned keith richards 78 times but only mentioned mick jagger 32 times. this story is called on the road with rolling stones but that's not correct. it really should be called i love keith richards and want to have his baby. >> glor: you acknowledge later in the book you do in fact want to have his baby. >> i thought, he's right, i do want to have his baby. >> glor: keith did say something to you that stuck with you and really resonated and that is with respect to charlie watts. charlie seemed so like you. >> right. >> glor: what was it about that that made charlie -- because i don't think he necessarily liked or let a lot of people in like mick did. what was it about those interactions with charlie watts? >> i think i got this crazy access you don't get any more to them in those years. i used to drive back to the hotel with charlie watts and he was really into chicago and
jazz, stuff i'm interested in and we would have these conversations and about the civil war and american history. when i interviewed keith, i saved the tape, it's like that and the tape of marlon brando calling at 2:00 in the morning are my two great possessions. he said, charlie doesn't like many people. you're in. i felt like as the little brother, not being able to go to the party, i felt being able to hang out with people older and cooler than you and given the sense you belong and all those skills growing up in illinois came into play when hanging out with the stones. >> glor: is there a moment when you come down and appreciate everything that happened and say, my gosh -- >> yeah, about two years later i was walking through new york city and thought what the hell? i can't believe that! because at the time, i was young, it was going to be a cover story for rolling stone, i
also really idolized a lot of the rolling stone writers, like rourke and thompson, and knew the history of the magazine and wanted to do a good job, and i was trying to act as a professional and not a fan, so i didn't let myself really reflect on the amazing experience i was having till much later. that's what this book is to some extent. >> glor: through your lens. yeah, and i have this experience. i have a 12-year-old son and i was driving with him listening to his music and it suddenly occurred to me, this music sucks. then i thought, wait a second. this is probably because i'm an old guy. let me do research and see if i'm right. i realize, it does kind of suck. that's how i felt aboutç it. when i was a kid, you would wait for the next record like people would wait for the new iphone. you would think if it was the right record with the right collection of songs, you would have a good chance of having a
good summer. the right record could change your life. that energy of not just a great band and song but of a whole movement heading somewhere independenced and it died, and to me personally, i felt like it died when kurt cobain died. i was working at rolling stone and felt like the air went out of the balloon. this thing that felt so important, which to us was like a religion, rock and roll, kind of died and nobody stepped back and told the story. i was not old enough to have been with them in 1963 and '66, but my age is to step back and see the big picture. the famous quote, you have to wait till evening to see how glorious the day has been? i felt like that was my perspective and the goal of the book was to tell the story of rock and roll through the rolling stones. >> glor: what's next for the stones? >> people ask me how long do you think the stones will keep playing? they say, well, i think what will happen is they will be on stage and they will come out and
say, guys, you died three years ago. i think they'll just keep going and going because that's what they do. john lennon famously said, you know, they got to the end of the road on the road, and that was in the late '60s, and keith richard said there kind of is no end of the road. >> glor: the book is called "the sun, the moon and the rolling stones." ricrich cohen, so good to see y. >> it was fun. thank you. >> rose: for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications
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