tv Charlie Rose PBS July 13, 2016 12:00am-1:01am PDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. once again we look at dallas and the aftermath of the horrific events there. today president obama and former president bush spoke at a memorial service. here's the coverage from the "cbs evening news" with s& s&p t pelley. >> our sorrow can make us a better country. those were the words of the president this afternoon. he eulogized the slained police officers of dallas, but seized this moment of national attention to plea for reason from both sides of a racial divide. >> we wonder if an african american community that feels unfairly targeted by police and police departments that feel unfairly maligned for doing their jobs can ever understand each other's experience.ing it's hard not to think sometimes that the center won't hold, that
things might get worse. >> the center was where the president tried to draw both protesters and police. he criticized each for ignoring the truths to be found in the middle. >> and when anyone, no matter how good their intentions may be, paints all police as biased, or bigoted, we undermine those officers we depend on for our safety, when study after study shows that whites and people of color experience the criminal justice system differently, that if you're black you're more likely to be pulled over or searched or arrested. we cannot simply turn away and dismiss those in peaceful protest as trouble-makers or paranoid. >> mr. obama eulogized the five officers, but also brought into the room the memory of the two men killed by police this month
who were the reason for the dallas protest. >> even though who dislike the phrase black lives matter, surely we should be able to hear the pain of alton sterling's family, just as we should hear the students and co-workers describe their affection for phi philando castile. >> as a nation, president obama said we asked too much of our police. >> we underinvest in decent schools, and allow poverty to fester, so neighborhoods don't offer prospects for gainful employment. we refuse to fund drug treatment and mental health programs. we flood communities with so many guns that it is easier for a teenager to buy a glock than
get his hands on a computer or even a book. then we tell the police, you're a social worker, you're the parent, you're the teacher, you're the drug counselor. we tell them to keep those neighborhoods in check at all costs, and do so without causing any political blowback or inconvenience. don't make a mistake that might disturb our own peace of mind. and then we feign surprise when periodically the tensions boil over. >> the president said we must reject despair. we are not as divided as we seem. here's more i from the service. >> ♪ o say can you see b by the
dawn's early light ♪ >> there were five empty seats at the memorial, each holding an american flag, representing the officers who were killed. dallas mayor mike rawlings. >> we realize that our pain is your pain. you want to do what we want to do, honor the lives of these five officers, lorne ahrens, michael krol, michael smith, brent thompson, patricio zamarripa. >> the mayor also praised chief david brown for his leadership in the wake of the tragedy. >> he represents not only dallas, but police officers, police chiefs, this higher calling across the united states of america. >> chief brown known for never being at a loss for words today decided to use lyrics from a
stevie wonder song to honor the officers. >> we all know sometimes life's hate and troubles can make you wish you were born in another time and place, but you can bet your lifetime that, and twice it's doubled, that god knew exactly where he wanted you to be placed. >> the theme of the service was unity. former president george w. bush, who lives in dallas, only miles from where the attack happened, directly addressed the fallen officers' families. >> your loss is unfair. we cannot explain it. we can stand beside you, and share your grief. we can pray that god will comfort you with a hope deeper than sorrow and stronger than death. >> he also acknowledged their
sacrifice. >> they went where do the called. they defended us, even to the end. they finished well. we will not forget what they did for us. >> president obama met privately with families of the fallen officers after today's service. scott, those families will now begin the process of burying their loved ones. the first two funerals are tomorrow. >> we continue this evening, looking at the events in dallas. >> you can see, i think, the emotion on his face today in that speech. i think that, if you talk to people who see him every day, these are the moments that really trouble him, that haunt him. to some extent they're beyond his control. and to some extent obviously they're a function of larger forces that he has failed to tame, but, you know, they weigh on him. they probably would on any president. >> also this evening, bill bill
bratton, the commissioner of the new york city police department. >> i get up and say what a beautiful day. crisis are an opportunity to defeat challenges. we have the dual propellant of terrorism. we saw that in orlando, san bernardino. we have aurora. we have what just happened in dallas. the multiplicity of motivations is going to be more of it unfortunately, but with that, out of that, comes the opportunity to have frank discussions about explicit bias, about race in america, about terrorism and the concerns that muslims have. >> rose: and we conclude this evening with calvin trillin, whose new book is called "jackson 1964: five decades of reporting on race." >> i think that what happened in
dallas made me think of how fragile everything is. just takes one guy, because in a way what was happening in dallas was something that was -- that was wonderfully american. there were the cops protecting peaceful demonstrators who were demonstrating against the behavior of the cops. and that's almost textbook of what free speech and democracy is supposed to be. and one guy can stop it. i think that the difference is what the african american community thinks about -- they thought it then and think it nog in the culture of the police, systemic rather than just one guy who got scared or shot two. >> rose: a conversation about
dallas and race from the president and many others next. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we begin this evening with president obama's speech in dallas. five police officers were killed last thursday by a racially motivated gunman whose shootings followed the shooting of two black men in louisiana and minnesota. the president urged the nation to meet the challenge of this difficult moment.
>> i've seen how inadequate words can be in bringing about lasting change. i've seen how inadequate my own words have been. so i'm reminded of the passage in john's gospel, let us love not with words or speech, but with actions and in truth. if we're to sustain the unity we need to get through these difficult times, if we are to honor these five outstanding officers who we've lost, then we will need to act on the truths
that we know. that's not easy. it makes us uncomfortable. but we're going to have to be honest with each other and ourselves. >> rose: president george w. bush also spoke at the memorial. >> at times it seems like the forces pulling us apart are stronger than the forces binding us together. too often we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions. >> rose: on the campaign trail, clinton praised reforms made by the dallas police department. she spoke in new hampshire where she accepted the endorsement of her former democratic rival bernie sanders. >> and i'm asking for all of us to really search our hearts and minds to make sure we don't have implicit biases.
let's learn from police departments like dallas that had made strong progress and applied lessons nationwide, because everyone in every community benefits when there is respect for the law and when everyone is respected by the law. >> rose: joining me now is peter baker, who has covered the president, and knows president obama well. peter, tell me what you thought of the speech today, and is this vintage obama? is this a role that he handles well because he -- you can see the anguish in the president as he spoke in dallas. >> i think you did see that anguish. i thought this speech really serves as kind of a bookend, kind of a sad one, because, you know, in 2004 he first came to our national attention with a speech to the country at the democratic convention in which he talked about how there's not a black america and a white america and a red america and a blue america, but a united states of america. it was that hopeful sentiment, that idea of, you know, common
purpose that he rode to the white house four years later. here he is now, at the end of this presidency, and he's faired a series of episodes like this, that are so searing, so painful, that even he said today in his speech, i have moments of doubt about what is happening in our country, but he said not to give into that doubt, to understand that race relations, as hard as they are, are still better than they have been in the past, and to pull together in a more hopeful future. >> rose: how would he define what's happening in america? >> well, i think what he would define it as, as a continuing leftover effects of a long period of racial history in our country that goes back to slavery and jim crow an and so n and so forth. while progress has been made, because he knows in his own life that progress has been made, it doesn't mean every bit of bias
and hatred has been stomped out. he had to draw a line, saying we're not picking sides between police and african american communities, that those sides have to find ways to work together, to get past this kind of incendiary moment. >> rose: did he write the speech himself? >> i think he had a lot to do with the speech himself. in the last few days, trying to work on, it's difficult for him, because he's given a version so many times in the last fuelers. he struggled to find words to convey something that will have impact. he said, i don't know that my words will have impact that i want. they're inadequate. that's an admission for a politician who has lived on the strength of his oratory, and he's found that speeches, that words, have not been enough to heal the country. >> rose: it's interesting enough, isn't it, peter -- and
i'm asking -- here's a man with extraordinary skills and resume, so to speak, in terms of harvard and harvard law and all that he's done, but a black man with a kenyan father, and a white mother, and written beautifully about it in talking about his father and growing up, as he had, but a man who as president basically did not want to come head on -- correct me if i'm wrong -- talking about racism? >> well, i think that's right. i think that's right. i think he came into office wanting to be a president for all americans, not just the first african american president. look, his place in history he knows was written the day he took office, right? he's the first african american ever to serve in the white house as the president of the united states. that's the first line in his obituary. he understands that, but he does not want to be identified strictly in those terms. he had a lot of on his plate at the time. we had an economic crisis, two
wars, so he didn't talk much about race in this country in his first term. it's been more in the second term that he's opened up more. that's a function of circumstance. obviously he doesn't have an election to worry about anymore, but there's been a series of events from ferguson to baltimore to minnesota, louisiana, and dallas. they've forced him to become more of a leader on these issues, to talk about them more. i think it has to be a disappointment to him that a presidency that hoped to be a symbol of progress now is finding itself in the end of its term, you know, dealing witheútt seemed so painful and so harsh and so irreconcilable. >> rose: we're joined by allen blinder of the "new york times." tell us about dallas today, what happened there with the president coming, with joe biden there, former president bush also there. >> absolutely extraordinary scene in dallas today. the event that the president spoke at, as well as former
president bush, was an invitation-only event here. it was largely, the symphony hall was filled with police officers, most dallas police officers, but also officers from los angeles, wellesley, massachusetts, and the mood in the room was one of hope in a lot of ways, but also a recognition there were tough issues to talk about. president bush touched on those. president obama touched on those. it was interesting watching how the reaction evolved before and afternoon the speech. when i spoke to people before the speech, they weren't sure what to make of president obama coming to dallas, what he would say amid all of the turmoil. a number of police officers i talked to were quite skeptical of what he might say. afterwards, a lot of positive response. >> rose: what do you think it was about the speech that touched them? >> you know, i had the chief of the los angeles county sheriff's department tell me that he thought the president straddled the line very well, that he recognized that there are sacrifices that police officers
and other law enforcement officials are called to take every day, but also pointing out that the black american experience has been difficult, that law enforcement is often blamed for that. he said he thought -- the president managed to weave together a few different narratives in american life and talk about how they affect everybody. >> rose: peter, back to you. in some sense, again, of this president -- i mean, this is -- he has said before that's worst day of his presidency was the bombing in newtown. >> yes. rose: i mean, he feels deeply these acts of violence. >> he does. what's interesting, of course, because he's such a -- you know, detached personality at times, he doesn't necessarily emote in a public way the way, say, bill clinton and george w. bush did as president, and yet he does feel these things deeply. you could see, i think, the emotion in his face today in
that speech. if you talk to people who see him every day, these are the moments that trouble him, that haunt him. to some extent they're beyond his control. and to some extent obviously they're a function of larger forces that he has failed to tame. but, you know, they weigh on him. they probably would on any president. >> rose: in dallas, there's great respect for the dallas police department, because of its leadership. am i correct? >> absolutely. i have had more people come up to me in the last couple days and said they wished the chief would run for president. deep respect here. it should be noted that the chief has had his critics here. he's very popular. he's been very popular, especially since last thursday, but just a few months ago some of the officer groups were criticizing him, in pointed ways. at least one had called for his resignation. so it's been an up-and-down tenure for david brown, the chief here, but the department
in general has a deep well of respect in this city. >> rose: how would they characterize it? simply that he's stood up for them, but at the same time -- go ahead. >> officers in dallas were concerned a few months ago about some of his shift scheduling, but people in this city, in the last week, officers have been talking a lot about how chief brown has stood up and told hard truths, that they have felt needed to be discussed on a national stage, but weren't really being talked about in a high-profile way. they've talked about his news conference yesterday where he talked a lot about the burdens that have been placed on modern police officers, talking about how in dallas there's a loose dog problem, and the police are being asked to help with that. so in the last few days, despite all of the tensions and turmoil that have sometimes shadowed the chief's tenure in dallas, he's really become a popular figure among his officers. how long that will last, we'll have to see. >> rose: is there a sense that dallas is healing? >> i think there's a sense that it's a slow healing process.
the funerals begin tomorrow here. tomorrow dallas will start to say good-bye more formally to two of its officers. they'll continue throughout the week. i think people want to see really how those funerals go. chief brown made the comment yesterday that he would be -- this would be the hardest week of his life, the most challenging thing he's ever done. >> rose: allen, thank you so much for joining us. >> my pleasure. rose: peter baker, who's written so well about so many politicians, and especially this president and his leadership, soon will be going to be a bureau chief, and soon will write a book about ji jim baker. >> thanks, charlie. rose: thank you. we continue our discussion with bill bratton, the new york city police commissioner, who announced yesterday that the
number of shootings in the city have hit a historical low in the first half of 2016. i'm pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. >> great to be with you as always. >> rose: let's talk about dallas and many ramifications, because you have always been viewed as a police commissioner, as a head of police departments that have tried to look to the future, and have tried to maximize the best that there can be in police work, both in terms of culture, in terms of technology, and in terms of finding and training best possible police officers. so with that context, talk about dallas. >> dallas is certainly an american tragedy. as you recall, charlie, two years ago we had a similar experience in new york with two of our detectives murdered just before christmas, and we had this conversation. i've been very admiring of chief brown in terms of his handling, not only of the horrific events that night, but since that time,
really helping america to understand the dilemma that american police face in today's society. >> rose: right. >> we have become the kind of catchall for all the ills of our society. we put an awful a lot of burdens on the shoulders of our young police officers. but he's also reflective of something that's not oftentimes recognized in american policing, just how good so many of our chiefs are in major cities, that the progression of professionalism in my profession over the last 40 years, since i joined the police department, boston 1970, has been extraordinary. the creativity, the humanity, the passion that american police chiefs bring to the profession, he's representative of that. he's certainly one of our most outstanding. >> rose: tell me what the professionalism is and how you achieve it. >> professionalism is the idea that we recognize that we are a
profession that is continually in need of improvement. we have come a long way on that journey. it's a constant journey. you never get to the final destination. and i've watched the changes over the last fo now 45 years ad it's nothing short of phenomenal. as a profession, american policing has progressed much more rapidly than american society as a whole. >> rose: because of leadership in police departments? >> it's a combination of leadership and creativity -- creative leadership in police departments. most of the profound improvements and changes have originated at the local police level. the whole concept of community policing, partnership, problem-solving, focusing on prevention. >> rose: then someone would ask, why are we having so many more incidents? there's more evidence of it, therefore it's easier to prove. >> actually the number of incidents are relatively small, but they're magnified incredibly by the world we live in, the
world of social media. >> rose: right. >> was there more of it in the past, or are we just now accurately reflecting what it's always been? i think we have much less than the past, certainly in the '60s and '70s, when we were dealing with the issues of '60s that we lived through, how incredible those times were. we are not where we need to be, but we're certainly farther along than where we used to be. >> rose: what's your reaction to president obama's speech? >> i had an opportunity to not see it but read it on my way to this interview. i think he hit the right notes. he's incredibly eloquent in these times of crisis. the high-wire act as a black that he has to walk, as a president that he has to walk, in some respects he's on the same high wire that american police say are on, that every word we say can be construed depending on the prism that people are looking through to see it.
>> rose: he said, words are inadequate. my words have been inadequate. we have to act on the truth we know. what can we do better? what action must we undertake? then quoted from the gospel of john, let us love not with words or speech, but with action and in truth. i mean, we've had a lot of speech in terms of when a police officer is shot or when a -- there's an action by a police officer, which is a tiny minority of the police, but at the same time we walk away from these with words, and the president is saying we have to act. >> well, think of the term, let us speak with truth. one of the things -- to fix a problem you have to admit that you have a problem. we've been upfront in american policing in recognizing that we have many problems. that among our ranks, are
racists, criminals, and there's much less than when i came into the profession. i can guarantee you. there's still 1% or 2%. we can't allow ourselves as our profession -- i refuse to allow my department, my profession -- to be defined by that 1% or 2%. we can't tolerate that. at the same time we have to admit that we have things to correct. certainly i've sought in my now 30 months as police commissioner here in new york to address so much of what the black lives matter movement, for example, they have 10 areas of focus that they are demanding change. as i look at those 10 points, the majority of them, we're already doing in new york. they want improved training. there's no department in america that does more trainings than we now do in terms of the whole idea of dealing with race issues, with legitimacy, with we've come so far, and i'm
committed to ensuring that that journey continues. >> rose: i want to talk about training in just a moment, because there's something i think we call implicit racism. >> that's correct. rose: i want to talk about that, part of the training that goes on at the nypd as i understand it. black lives matter, you have said, i have no concern at all with black lives matter, the name of the organization or focus of concern of blacks, but the concern i have, any organization that seeks to stereotype us, define us, the germ that allows racism to grow is the stereotype, the painting of a wide brush of a race, color, or religion. when you have protesters claiming all police are racists, or cops are cold-blooded killers, you have the same construct. >> exactly. to continue that quote from my press availability yesterday, i talked about that would be like us, with the 40 million blacks in this country, the unfortunate reality there's so much crime in that community, but they were
the victims of that crime, do we define all 40 million blacks as criminals because they have criminals in their ranks? no. we seek to effectively focus on those who are committing those acts. similarly the problem i have with black lives matter, i don't have a problem with their goal, if you will, or with even the term "black lives matter." they're black, so they're concerned -- >> rose: you have trouble with, though? >> i have trouble with some of the rhetoric, which is painting with that broad-brush this idea of -- its very origin was to go after the police. and the police only are a part of the societal issues they're trying to address. the societal issues of the criminal justice system, whether it's the prosecutors, the judges, the incarceration system, the rates of incarceration, the concept that so much of what leads people into a criminal life creates a path for the criminal life, the societal injustices that they
suffer, the idea of schools that don't teach, government that doesn't seem to be responsive to their needs. the total abject failure of the well-intended effort to deconstitutionallize mental institutions in the '70s, which was a catastrophe. we deal with that continually today. >> rose: here's a clip from the president's speech today. >> while some suffer far more under racism's burden, some feel to a far greater extent discrimination. although most of us do our best to guard against it, and teach our children better, none of us is entirely innocent.
no institution is entirely immune. and that includes our police departments. we know this. >> rose: you'd agree with that 100%? >> 100%. rose: how do you teach what's called implicit acts of racism? >> actually implicit bias is the term that's used. >> rose: implicit bias. >> it's something as we're focused on training of the nypd, we've increased phenomenally the amount of training we're giving to our officers. we recently put together a three-day retraining program for all of our personnel with a lot of focus on implicit bias, understanding that we all have it. that's the reality of it. and understanding that, how do we control it, how do we -- >> rose: how do you help people understand it? >> by first off, don't correct the problems. you admit you have a problem. by admitting that it exists. the science now shows it. science proves it. there was a study that just came out the past couple of days from
harvard looking at police use of force, and finding that there's implicit bias in most use of force by police, except interestingly enough in the most catastrophic use of force, the taking of a life. in that instance, that use of deadly force, they could not find implicit bias or bias on the part of police officers, but in many of the interactions, the vast multitude, that it was there. so knowing it exists, that that -- recognizing that it exists, that's how you begin to solve or deal with the problem. if you deny it, you're not going to address it. >> rose: and so but you have these programs to help them understand where there is implicit bias? >> that's correct. rose: by asking a series of questions, what would you do in this situation? >> it's still an imprecise science, only coming to grips with. american policing in some respects is ahead of the cousin from trying to address it, even
though we're still trying to define it oig you're in new york city. is this true in police departments in less urban areas? is there any difference in police departments in less urban areas? is there a difference in geography? is there different standards of police departments? >> that's an interesting question. i don't have an answer for that. the department that works with a lot of minorities, is that bias increased or lessened, in a community that has no minorities? it's a very interesting question, charlie. i don't have an answer to that one. >> rose: you think what of david brown, the police chief of dallas in terms of the way he's handled this? >> phenomenal. he's one of our best. >> rose: did you know of him before this? >> oh, yes. major city chiefs meeting here a couple months ago here in new york. no. he's somebody that's well regarded, lime myself and most american police say in major cities, we are firm believers and supporters and implementers
of community policing. it's something that he certainly stands very tall among police say in his advocacy and his creativity relative to that. >> rose: and you want to know what made him. in other words, what is it about him and how did he become, as you'd ask about you, how did he become the police officer he became? >> very interesting. blacks particularly in law enforcement, when you understand and fully appreciate all they're up against in life, and all thap that won't tell you about his negative experiences at the hands of cops growing up. >> rose: right. >> and yet despite that, they come in to policing, but they come in to policing with a passion that they want to make a difference. i've seen it time after time with black officers, this idea that -- this is the point if you think of what chief brown talked about the other day. if you want to create change,
become the change. that old expression. >> rose: right. >> so to the demonstrators, stop demonstrating, come on in, create the change from the inside. i loved that expression, because i've always loved the expression, because it's the idea that -- >> rose: change from within. >> it's faster, more certain than trying to force it from the outside. >> rose: do you -- i ask this often, you know, after there is a terrible use of guns and weapons that seem only for far, when they're used in these awful attacks like orlando. there's a cry after newtown. there's a cry for gun control. do you think there's something different about what happened in dallas? >> two thoughts. i've been a strong advocate of
gun management, gun control, ever since i became a chief. >> rose: are most chiefs of that frame of mind? >> we're divided. i think most major city chiefs, sheriff's deputies tend to go in a different direction because they're elected officials, and often respond to the electorate in their communities, but as it relates to dealing with guns, chiefs have to travel two paths. advocating for gun laws that are meaningful, but recognizing that with the congress of the united states not able to take action because they're basically under the control of the nra, that we also have to take other paths within our profession, which is strategic policing that's resulted here in new york city despite the prevalence of guns in the rest of america, despite guns particularly in the south, being brought into our city. gun crime reduction in new york city has been significant over the years, because we have strategies to deal with it. i can't wait for congress -- i'll be long gone, dead and
buried, before this congress ever does anything meaningful about gun control legislation. >> rose: not specifically about gun control, but this is what david brooks has said. quote, how can america answer a set of generational challenges when the leadership class is dysfunctional, political conversation has entered a post fact era, and the political parties are divided on racial lines, set to blow up at a moment's notice. >> uh-huh. that's america today. >> rose: but are you optimistic? >> my wife ricki who you know very well, tells me i'm the most optimistic person in america. i get up in the morning, and say what a beautiful day. i like challenge. i see crisis as an opportunity to address challenges. the crisis in america today around issues of race, violence, terrorism, we're going to see more of these acts unfortunately in the near term, because we have the dual propellant of terrorism. we saw that in orlando,
san bernardino. we have aurora. we have what just happened in dallas. the multiplicity of motivations, there's going to be more of it unfortunately, but with that, out of that, comes the opportunity to have frank discussions about implicit bias, about race in america, about terrorism and the concerns that muslims have about being portrayed as blacks are portrayed oftentimes because there's so much crime in black communities, they're all criminals. that muslims, that because most of the terrorism in the world right now is rising out of the islamic faith, that the prejudice against them, they're concerned about that. understanding that we can create change. i look at the change that during my time in l.a. we were able to create on the race issue, probably one of the most racially divided cities in america, that one of my greatest seasons as an "l.a. times" editorial talking as i left l.a. in 2009, finally a corner has been turned on race relations in
los angeles. out of this there's an opportunity to accelerate the rate of change, change for the better. i'm optimistic about that. i wouldn't stay in policing -- and i've stayed in policing for 45 years -- if i didn't think that was the case. i've encouraged also by the way american policing has changed more rapidly than any other american institution. i defy you to point to any other institution that's changed more in a progressive way than my profession over the last now -- since the 1960s. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> pleasure to be here wroig commissioner bill bratton of the new york city police department. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: calvin trillin is here, a staff writer at the new yorker magazine since 1963. he got his start as a journalist covering the civil rights in the south. his new book is called "jackson:1964," a collection of
five decades of reporting on race in america. i've pleased to have calvin "bud" trillin back at the table. never a more appropriate moment to have you. first let's talk about police violence against minorities, and at the same time the assassination of dallas police officers. >> there's a story in there about a police shooting of a black man. >> rose: right. police would have said a robbery suspect, that the black people of seattle thought a white policeman killed a black man. that's written in the '70s. i think it's not a new situation, but what's brought it to the fore is iphone cameras and video from camcorders, and
these body cameras they have. i think -- i think that what happened in dallas made me think of how fragile everything is. it's taken one guy -- because in a way what was happening in dallas was something that was -- that was wonderfully american. there were the cops protecting peaceful demonstrators who were demonstrating against the behavior of the cops. and that is almost textbook of what free speech and democracy is supposed to be. and one guy can stop it. i think that the difference is what the african american community thinks about -- and they thought it then and they think it now -- is that there's something in the culture of the police that's systemic rather than just one guy who got scared
and shot. >> rose: you think that too? >> i think that a lot of the police forces in this can you please are trying to change that. >> rose: yeah. >> but i think it was a normal thing at the beginning. >> rose: when we say systemic in the culture of the police, what is it? is it racism you're saying, or is it simply an absence of respect for individuals? what? >> i think it's a -- rose: color? >> yeah. i think there's a certain amount of racism. a lot of things aren't -- >> rose: you think it's found in police more significantly than other institutions because of the nature of what police work buys and what you're exposed to. >> well, you're exposed to criminals by definition. but no, i think it's around society. sometimes it isn't obvious. i mean, look at the birther
business where bernie sanders described that very well. he said president obama's father was born in kenya and my father was born in poland. nobody's demanded to see my birth certificate. i mean, what is that? that's underlying racism. occasionally something happens, and as the -- i say in the beginning of the book -- often people just take it for granted, take things for granted. used to be, when i was young, it was taken for granted that people in the south, white people in the south, were white supremacists by virtue of their geography. as you know -- you're from north carolina, right? >> rose: right.
>> -- it wasn't true. on the other hand, it was taken not as something that was disabling. it was taken as a sort of regional peculiarity that was regrettable, sort of like bragging among texans, something like that. >> rose: i want to turn more to the book in just a moment, but staying with the dallas story, this story, what did you think of the president's words today? >> i thought they were what a president should say. >> rose: any president? >> well, yeah. but the president is the president -- >> rose: i understand, but did you think they were particularly inspired, eloquent, put it in a context so it that would be more easily a vehicle to move to some kind of action program or solutions? >> i'm not sure of that. rose: what's the solution? >> the dallas police department has a good reputation oig absolutely. and the police chief has -- >> the police chief was great. i thought it was interesting when he said that everything -- all these problems were put on
the police. >> rose: right. that it's too much. >> it's too much for the police. it used to be during the struggle for integration, which ended up not happening basically, and people said it's too much to put on the schools. >> rose: right. >> so we have to combine the -- rose: they say about that the military, too. we're demanding too much of our soldiers in terms of nation building and everything else. >> right. but, on the other hand, the armed services are probably the best example of desegregation that we have. >> rose: absolutely. >> and i think it's very simple. it's because they were just told to do it and they did it. >> rose: you know how long ago that was? that was during truman's administration. >> right. ose: 1948. yeah, truman left in 1952.
>> it's because eisenhower said you can't legislate morality, which of course we try to do with all kinds of divorce laws, everything like that. you can't legislate morality, but you can legislate behavior, and that's the armed forces did. >> rose: this is four decades, 50 years of reporting. how have we changed? clearly things are better in part. >> things are definitely better. rose: the president said that. >> but he's right. things are -- i mean, when i went to jackson for the 50th commemoration of the freedom ride, both the police chief and the mayor were african americans. that wouldn't have happened -- i mean, there's some obvious things. i went to get my car serviced the other day, and i didn't deal with anybody who was just a regular white person. there were people of color of
one sort or another. i mean, things have progressed. but then you have, say, voting laws passed now that are not just in mississippi, but in pennsylvania, that are obviously meant to keep black people from voting. you don't get your house burned down for trying to vote, but you get standing in a long line asking for identification that you don't have. >> rose: what do you think of black lives matter? >> well, i think black lives matter -- >> rose: as a movement. >> well, as an obvious thing, way to go. as i say, i think this issue -- yes, of course, all lives matter, but you can't have a movement saying all lives matter. it has to be black lives matter matter, because they didn't seem
to in their view. and, you know, the idea that they're responsible for the sky is kind of silly. >> rose: when you set out to write this, you were drawn back to race? was there some precipitating thing or moment? other than your editor says it's time for another book. >> i've been the last few years visiting an nyu classroom. the professor robert cohen used to teach at the user of georgia, and his field is civil rights and race relations. he suggested that i put these pieces together for a book. i mean, put some of the pieces together. there are more of them than that. and i thought -- i had never actually thought of that.
so i did what the professor said. >> rose: you wrote a book? >> i wrote a book. rose: good for you, and good for us. you also reported on charlene hunter when she was a student at the university of georgia. >> right. that was a book length piece, so it's not in this book because i didn't want to excerpt it. >> rose: yeah. >> but as i mentioned before, and i think i mentioned in the introduction, i think there was a moment cuffing that story this made me think i was finally beginning to understand what was going on. she was in a dorm of hostile coeds, and we talked quite a bit on the phone. i was in atlanta then for "time" magazine. she mentioned once that she had come back from savannah, on the
train, and it was a terrible trip. i said, i thought that was supposed to be a great train. the nancy hanks it was called. >> rose: yeah. >> she said, you know, not where we have to sit. all of my knowledge and experience in the south of, all my reading of messy versus ferguson, the distinction between interstate and intrastate transportation, had just drained away, and i thought, they can't make her sit back there. i realized, it's not theoretical, it's personal. for african americans, in georgia at that time, it was personal every day. to some extent it still is. >> rose: you also say we have to keep learning certain lessons about race. >> yeah.
i think relearning. because some things become talked about, and then recede. that's always been true. i happened to be in the south that year at a busy time, integration of university of georgia, and university -- and new orleans, in atlanta, freedom rides and sit-ins, but two yeari got there nothing happened, because it was just total segregation, and there wasn't any really push from washington to change it. so, yeah, i think that what happens is that the question recedes into the background, and the idea that this is something we have to clear up before we get on with things. >> rose: it's interesting to me that a lot of journalistic careers were made during the civil rights -- covering civil rights in the south. >> yeah. rose: lots of them. >> because it was a wonderful story. >> rose: yeah. a powerful story, because it had
everything. >> it was a powerful story, it had everything. and mainly it had individual people, not politicians or movie stars or famous people, having to make serious decisions. i mean, i sat in the room -- in a sort of safe house that the freedom riders were saying in in montgomery before they went on to jackson -- when a student had to decide, did he really want to volunteer to be on the first bus or not. i wen went to a sit-in in atlann a greek diner, and it was sort of a wildcat sit-in. the proprietor had tears in his eyes, and he said, i really believe in what you're doing, but if i let you stay here without calling the police, my business is ruined, and my family is without any sort of
support. i mean, people had to decide those things. the people i have to say who were deciding for desegregation often didn't get through the thing well. either they -- either they were run out of town or there was pressure on their family or they started drinking or something happened. >> rose: is any part of you optimistic? because i've had people that i respect that think this goes back to slavery, and we never got over slavery. >> oh, i think that there's a lot to be said for that, that we never got over slavery. someone told me the other day, totally different context, that hhe -- this the idea of keepinga militia, and therefore a right to bear arms, had to do with the
fear of slave rebellions. i mean a lot goes back to slavery. i think that's separate from being optimistic that we're going to do something about it. >> rose: right, right. i wasn't suggesting the two were connected. you know, it's a long burden. it's a long burden of history. >> it is a long burden. and i'm optimistic in the sense that i look back on these years, and look back on particularly being in mississippi, or some place like that, and i think, well, we've come a long way since then. >> rose: sure. >> and a lot of different ways, but we've come a long way in race, but we still have a very long way to go. seems like two steps forward and one step back. >> rose: thank you for coming. it's great to see you. >> thank you, charlie. rose: the book is called "jackson:1964, and other
this is nightly business report with tyler mathson and sue herera. >> the builds. the dow follows the s&p 500 into record territory. but not everyone thinks stocks can stay hot. >> pay raise. the country's biggest bank plans to hike wages for its lowest paid employees and the ceo called it the right thing to do. >> big opportunity. will amazon's one-day shopping bonanza be a boon for some small sellers? all that and more tonight on nightly business report for tuesday, july 12th. >> good evening. >> welcome, everyone. it took more than a year, but stoc are at new highs. again today, the blue chip