tv Amanpour on PBS PBS April 18, 2018 6:00am-6:30am PDT
welcome to amanpour on pbs. tonight director general of the world trade organization, roberto azavido on slouching towards a trade war between trump's america and china. and the emotional battle over breakfast, when we should be grappling with the facts. plus, an extraordinary story of a high flying air doctor, who harbored a very dark past. and the american author who uncovered her truth. my conversation with the award winning writer, john hemingway. ♪ good evening, everyone, welcome
to the program. i'm cristian amanpour. shinzo abe arrives in florida to meet with president trump at mar a lago resort. north korea will feature high in their talks. but so too will an issue on which trump has been remarkably consistent, his whole life. that is trade. as a businessman in the 80s it was japan had him riled up. now it is china. and now he is president. so how dangerous its this period of tit for tat tariffs and taunts. roberto azavido director general of the world trade organization and on the way to discuss all this in the united states. i caught up with him earlier in london. his organization, underpins the entire system of global commerce, and trade resolutions. mr. azavido welcome to the program. can you tell us, those of us who are lay people, are we in the middle of a trade war, on the
bring of a trade war, what is the situation between the united states and china? >> technically we're not in a trade war. politically we could be moving towards that. i think -- the situation is very dire. the u.s. and the china are not talking the same language apparently. the situation of the imminent of a trade war, possibility that we have a trade war is bad enough. we already have the economy that is picking up. beginning to pick up. >> global economy. >> global economy. so, it was pretty good. we expect that this year and the next, could be, could be positive as well. but the tensions, just the fact that a trade war could happen is already affecting the markets. >> we have seen that. we have also seen stabilize a little bit. reading everything trump tweets. everything the chinese respond. so, what does a trade war look like and what is the impact if it gets to exactly that level? >> there are different levels of
tra trade war. could be localized. one or two sectors. something like that. or could be really spread out. if it is truly spread out. trade war. people ask me. what will be the impact. how big is it? how much do we lose the? it depend on the type and size of the trade war. we did a study. if we went back to what we had, in terms of tariffs, before the system was established. global economy would contract by 2.4%. 60% of global trade would disappear. >> 60%? >> huge. huge, that's bigger than the effect of the crisis after 28. cession of 2008 a. deep han >> if we have a full out trade war. let's hope not going to happen. >> right now as we have been sake, tariffs are a threat. we are sort of on the verge of, not quite yet over the edge yet.
a week or so ago, president trump tweeted that president xi and i will always be friend no matter what happens with our dispute ontrade. china will take down its trade barriers because it is the right thing to do. taxes will become reciprocal. and a deal will be made on intellectual property. great future for both countries. what if he is wrong? what if he is wrong, china doesn't take the steps he think it will. >> china is ready to have a conversation. i've really do. china would be willing to silt down and have a conversation. they told me personally, that's what they would look to do. but they find it difficult to get to the kind of -- type of conversation and objectives before they have the conversation. >> too much in the twittersphere, not enonough fac to face talks? >> i think there is not
enough -- understanding. on what is being sought. >> what is being sought? do you understand what is being sought? you said there are concerns. president trump. the united states, has legitimate concerns. with aspects of china's trade practices. what? reciprocity. china should open the economy. but all these things are not that easy to translate into, into, negotiating terms. saying something like that is easy for the, for the political establishment to understand. so the public opinion to understand. but for a negotiator on the other side. it is not that clear. they need more clarity. they need more details to know, to know exactly what is being sought. intellectual property for example. intellectual property is an extremely technical area. if you don't sit down and explain exactly what you are talking about, the other side
will be guessing. >> so, what was your advice, would your advice be to the trump administration, and to the chinese about this current impasse? >> i have been asking both sides to sit down and talk. and, have a conversation. it's not -- not that obvious for the reasons we talked about. but, i, i think, that -- that, the moemment of technical moves where you take threats. where you, where you -- make public statements, which are important in this context as well. is not going to do the trick. not going to disarm detention. we need more than that to get to a real, solution finding mode conversation. might not do the trick. might exacerbate the situation and make it much worse that in is now. >> it could. the most difficult scenario is one where, you say, and expect things publicly. and, you do it in such a way
that the other side is politically unable to accept. >> because their back is against the wall? >> yeah, they have a public opinion too. they have, considerations on the other side too. they have to face to face on the side as well. beth side both sides. if you go too far. you make it impossible for the other side to react. that judgment call is tricky. >> do you think that china is, playing it kind of smart. some of the -- some of the tariffs that is suggesting, hit right to the heart of the trump voter base. farmland, middle united states. and that kind of stuff. but we are already hearing, supporters, express real worry about what, what, a trade situation like this could mean for them. >> that's, that's, textbook tactics when you are threatened by a measure from another country. yie if you are going to respond in some way, you make sure it will hurt.
and they go for right. so this is not new. everybody does that. in the in the trade arena. >> the bottom line is for a long, long time. president trump has had a fairly, standard and clear, view on trade. and his view is that, that, the united states its getting had. the united states is being played as a fool. let me just play you this sound bite from a long time ago. to give you an idea of where all this start ford him? >> i believe it is very important that you have free trade. but we don't have free trade right now. because the if you want to go to japan. or go to saudi arabia. various other countries. it is virtually impossible for the countries. larry king live. 1987. long time ago. bottom line is, is he right? is, the united states unfairly shut out of various places. does the united states get the raw end of a lot of these deals. >> i wouldn't go as far to say the united states is is a loser
in these deals. i would say not the only one in the global arena. to believe tradeould be free. in that sense he will have mpany in t glol scenario. he was talking about japan. now china. every time there will be a new, some body else, new challengers, threats. sit down like people have done. and trade wars are good. and easy to win. is that true? >> i would disagree with that.
and trade wars are not good. they're detrimental. everybody loses. especially -- the poor people. if you take away trade. >> in terms of everybody. rich, economy. >> the moment those people spend less. they're a drag on the economy. sitting here in london. brexis, swallowed up the oxygen two years now. how do you judge the debate? all we hear about is politics?
>> you say often that you seek the truth. atou are going for the truth. the problem with the truth, in trad i that it is usually not what it looks like. politically it is very easy to use certain kinds of arguments, certain kinds of approaches. and public, public understands those simple things. trade is not simple. it is extremely complex. so -- if you really want to go for the truth, you will look, you have to look behind the numbers. i will give you one clear example. this -- this push back. on, on the imports. cheap imports. trade is disruptive some times. the reality its today. new technologies and innovation, are much, much, bigger. eight of ten jobs lost to technology, new technologies not imports. going for truth here is a much tougher proposition.
>> so what happens when people wake up. and brexit has happened. suddenly, wto rules. no major deals to work out with the eu. what are people going to see? >> how much different. it will be different. better or different better or worse? >> mr. chal emore challenging. some sectors. >> people's jobs. >> it could. how big, i don't know. did we have to be at this place? was nafta so broken that it had to take a president trump to, to, throw it all up in the air and try to renegotiate it? or was it going along fine for all parties? >> i am sure there were sectors, segments of the economic establishment in the u.s. that would look to improve the conditions of trade with mexico and canada.
others were happy. notbout the economics. about the politics. >> some people believe in chaos theory or disruptodisruptor. >> it is very interesting. because some times i hear people see, we are in a crisis. when a crisis happens, opportunity shows up. and, and we, we do something different. we think outside the box. the problem is -- a crisis some times, doesn't end the way you want to. so, so, it's okay to be vocal. and to, to, to, be disruptive. even, even, to ask for the moon and the sky. you know, things like that. but, you laugh to be extremely careful. you have to be extremely careful. not to let these things damage your long term strategies. so you don't end up in a worse situation than you were when you began, with your, with your
political rupture. >> roberto azavido. thank you for being with us. >> my pleasure. thank you very much. >> very fascinating analysis on subject that can be quite difficult to get to grips with. but now we turn our gaze to the big open skies of africa. for the remarkable true story of kenya's most famous flying doctor. the swiss woman spent decades flying up and down the countryside, caring for more than a million people by some estimates. her exploits and her selflessness made her a legend in her lifetime. but, after she died, at the age of 81, her friend and award winning writer, john hemingway discovered, a dark truth buried in her past. the gripping tale is the subject of his new book, "in full flight" a story of africa and atonement. he recently came into our studios to reveal all.
john hemingway, welcome to the program. >> thank you. >> the title of your book indicates there is a reveal. before we get to that. what drew you in the first place to her? >> well, i was a young journalist trying to make my way in africa. i loved doing profiles of characters. i came across many characters. i heard about a woman who was flying learned how to fly at a late age. she was helping the rural people of kenya. in a massive way. it was exponential what she could do with an airplane and medical degree. >> i was fascinated to hear, and read, that the great filmmaker, did a documentary about her. even greater anthropologist, richard leakey said that perhaps no one did more to save lives in east africa.
>> oh, question. >> what did she do? >> she did medicine on a kind of -- on a massive scale. geometric how she could do this. land five tiechlz mes in a day. all her patients would be waiting at a mission clinic, under a tree. might be as many as 100. warriors, their wives. all had a cough or injury of some sort. she would treat them at an extraordinary fast paced way. she had a real instinct for, for, smelling out disease. and smelling out a problem. and, and coming up with, with a cure. >> what would you say was her greatest legacy in the medical zone? vaccinating the coast of kenya
all the way to the somali border. >> when did you start to sense that all was not as the it seems with her? >> well, i was always puzzled. why was it every time i asked her about her past, she was very happy to tell me about her childhood in france, switzerland. happy to talk about everything. some how the years, 1939 to about 1948, off-limits. and i pressed her. i did know a few things. i knew that she had been in the french resistance. and i knew that she had done extraordinary work there. after that. would not tell me anything. in fact, sunny would cut my head off every time i asked. >> how and what did you then discover? >> about a year after she died. came up with a predicament with
her neph. i said i loved his aunt. i wanted to write something. he bnd of medicine could serve as an example to so many people in the world. i wanted to find out more about it. however she always cut me dead about the war. he said. well, i didn't know either. my father did. but he never mentioned a word. that he died a month before ann did. this was a year after ann's death. he said, i did in h inherit her up in zabukia. i opened the safe. on the top most layer, was a file, it said, do not open. would you look to read it? would you like to read it? i got the file. the first page in the file was headed, crowcass, central ridge registry of war criminals. >> did your blood run cold? did you have any indication this
is what you may find? >> no. i thought she hadbused by the germans. i perpetuated that lie. it turned out to be a lie. so the whole list went down. there was ann spurry, only swiss on the list. printed in 1948. and she was wanted for crimes against humanity including torture. >> wow. >> that's where the entire investigation began. >> because she was taken to ravensbrook, concentration camp in germany which was specifically the only one built for women. female prisoners. >> right. e was in -- ravensbrook for 14 months. for maybe ten of the months, she was -- a normal prisoner. in fact, some times she did exemplarily work. there was one period of time. between september, 1944, until
the first of the year, '45. when the wheels came off. and, and, it was in block 10, which was her, tbors and lunatics. there she fell under the spell of one of greatest villains of all times, carmen mori. >> carmen mori was sort of in charge of the block. >> fellow prisoner. >> her being co-opted by the nazis. >> what was her influence on ann who want to the dark side? >> well, carmen mochltri really informed to the guards on a regular basis. but i had to say she was extraordinarily persuasive. she spoke six languages. could name drop like nobody else in the camp could. she knew hitl. knew everybody.
goebles. if she didn't know them. she said she did. it was very enticing. later after the war. ann said, that she was bewitched. and it is really critical word. because it is all, it is what happened in those four months. yeah. >> what was the crime, ann? >> well, her crimes were threefold. for torture. for actual -- assassination. >> assassination how? >> through, through -- injections of air. and of, of barbiturate. >> lethal injections? >> lethal injection, yeah. >> now in her defense. i have to raise this. there were three trials after the war. in which, she was accused of all of these terrible crimes. she was acquitted on the basis of lack of evidence. basically, the evidence by her,
her, her defense team, brought in all of these witnesses from the other blocks who had seen her in, in her good behavior. >> good days. >> yes, absolutely. >> but any case, she did claim it was mercy killing and all that sort of thing. however, i have to till yell yo having spoke tine three women who were in the same block. block 10. and they were doctors. at least one was a doctor. one was a nurse. and, and -- there was no such thing as mercy killing. it was not -- it was not -- >> option in ravensbrook. >> not an option, no. >> john, here you were diskufrlg after she died. after your friend died. somebody you kiddconsidered a heroine. this unforgivable past. what did it do to you as a person? did it change your view of her?
>> well, i am still puzzled by it. and i, i think i inject my puzzlement in the book. i -- i, i just can't -- forgive her. i've mean, i simply can't forgive her for what she did. during the war. on the other hand, i am dazzled by her achievements in kenya. >> you said, you learned that, it is relatable to all of us. in other words, perhaps everybody is capable of going from, a perfectly ordinary life, over the edge into the worst, worst horrors. but you said, you cannot forgive her. so i want to play for you, or read to you the other words of, one of the itnse yous, who tracked down. who was in the block 10. dr. louise leport told you in her last interview. in fact wonder if i could get you to read it. >> okay.
yes. 60 years ago, if i've had the met claude, that was the ann used in block 10. 60 years ago if i met clawed. and in the street. i would have turned my back on her. walked away. never talked. what she did in africa, was admirable. she went there for redemption. today, if she was still alive, knowing her suffering, realizing the beauty she made of her career, and knowing how much she has done for humanity, my reaction would be different. i would embrace her. >> i mean that really is forgiveness. >> that is. that is. and if any body could forgive. if any body is qualified. it would be dr. leports. >> your book, pardon the title is atonement. i want to play, a little interview the last you did with her. we'll talk about it. what is it about this part of
the world. keeps you going. you've should effectively be retired right now. >> you probably didn't understand what she was saying at that pin thoint. she could never retire. she had to continue atoning. >> absolutely. she was giving me, i think in retrospect some kind of code. she could only live with hersel adding up the people she saved. and all the others who came to ravensbrook. the largest, longest, cover-up in the history of the 20th century. she hid out in full sight.
she used it as a cover. inspired strategy. >> fascinating. john hemingway. thank you so much indeed. awe thank you so much. >> that really is a story made for a movie. and the rights have been bought. we'll see whether it ever develops. but that is it for the program tonight. thank you for joining us for amanpour on pbs. join us again tomorrow night. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪