tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC February 25, 2015 12:00am-1:01am PST
iran, there is no counting on the consequences. we listened to the neocons who cheered us. we listened to those who loved the sight of a toppling egypt and hoping for a toppling syria. let's hope that they are sane in iran even as the screwballs on our side of the world cheer for yet another u.s. war with far worse consequences than we can imagine. is that is hardball for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts
found justice very swiftly here. this has been a trial that has lasted for nine days them heard testimony from psychiatrists, both saying that chris kyle and chad littlefield were killed by a man who was high on marijuana and drugs and then other psychiatrists who said they were killed by a man who had a psychosis who believed the world was being invaded by pigs. that chris kyle and chad littlefield were pig hybrids. the problem with that case, according to the state and the jury agreed. that eddie ray ralph fled the scene like guilty man. that is the key point in this case. you have to know that what did you was wrong and that's what the jury decided. that eddie ray ralph knew what he was doing was wrong because he fled the scene. he will spend the rest his life in the texas penitentiary.
the prosecutors have decided not to speak. we did hear briefly from chad littlefield mother's jury. and in the stand in the courtroom for the victim's impact statement was the half brother jerry richardson who told off eddie ray routh exactly what the family was feeling. that they took a brother, a father, a loved one from the family. they said that he will never live that down. that he will be a murdered, labeled a murderer the rest of his life. >> so now begins that phase where not only the family members but the community there absorb what has happened over the last two years. we again as you were saying, not expecting at this moment to hear from the prosecution, although that was hoped for by some watching this case in addition to that, we've had the victim
impact statements. that is done is what you're saying. how than mood in the courtroom? >> reporter: here in the courthouse, it has been very tightly controlled. it was heavy security because before the trial, there were death threats made against eddie ray routh. they were protecting himself, protecting the witnesses in this case. it was a big case, the largest murder case ever in this county. and they didn't take it lightly. the jury was selected over the course of several days. two men and ten women on the jury. all white. that is basically a reflection of this county here. and they found the verdict that they believe what the prosecutors were saying. that chad littlefield and chris kyle, two men that were trying to help eddie ray routh were gunned down. shot in the back six and seven times each. and there was really no motive.
there was a suggestion at a motive, that when chris kyle came back to pick up eddie ray routh, chris kyle and chad littlefield did not shake his hand. he later told psychiatrists for eddie ray routh's, he told his psychiatrist that he was put off by that. he was offended by that. and the prosecutors used that as a thread of a motive that maybe, just maybe he was mad enough at these two because they didn't respect him enough that he killed them. >> the information available in material of what he was saying and thinking prior to the case, very sparse. the example you bring up. what they had in terms of pushing forth the hypothesis. eddie ray routh, if we can put up the pictures of him there. and the pictures before at the police station. very different. >> what has been the commentary
of that change that you have seen, charles? >> well, it was suggested that eddie ray routh was heavily indulging in drugs and alcohol before this. now that he's in jail and hasn't had access to that, he's had some pretty good food and gained some weight. the prosecution shot down the argument by the defense that eddie ray routh had a psychosis. his attorneys put on psychiatrists who testified that he told them that he believed pigs were invading the earth. and the two men were pig hybrids who were out to kill him. he thought it would be a one-way trim to the shooting range. that they were going to kill him. there so towed kill them before they shod them. now on the opposite side, the state said, that doesn't make sense. they may have thought he was a little off.
you heard about the text message that he sent to his friend chad littlefield. that this guy behind us is straight up nuts. in the opening statements, they said we really don't know what they thought. they didn't think he was a danger because they took out all the guns from the truck and laid them out on the table at the shooting range. they wouldn't have done that if they thought he was dangerous. they even gave eddie ray routh a pistol to shoot. obviously they didn't think he would turn the gun on them. in his mind, he thought they were going to try to kill him. so he shot them in the back six and seven times. a murder here that has shocked the community. and finally now we have justice. >> charles hadlock there for us live in stephensville right after the verdict came down. not too long ago. the jury only having the case for about 2:45.
they came to a decision very quickly. thank you so much for that. during closing arguments as we were listening to that, the defense reviewed the evidence that eddie ray routh suffered from schizophrenia. take a listen. >> we watched the doctor who works with schizophrenics every single day of the week. and he has for 20 years. they watched a smart man, a good psychiatrist. he doesn't deal with schizophrenia. he was only diagnosed one time in 30 years. and the president of the medical association, it sounded like that's about what he does most of the time. he is not dealing with patients like the doctor does every single day. and the doctor told you eddie is suffering from schizophrenia. >> joining us live, brian weiss, special prosecutor.
the jury did not buy that. >> no. but it was exactly what the defense figured they had to do to distinguish their expert. a work horse from the state's expert who they wanted the jury to believe was a show horse. in a situation like this, it is almost as if this jury goes back in the jury room whenever there's a battle of experts and chooses up sides like we would playing wiffle ball as kids. the fact that this jury was out as little as they happened to be, again, giving them time to go back in the jury room, select the foreman, even take a mill vote fortifies the notion in my mind that this really was almost a slow plea of guilty. >> now as we look forward. we're an hour into this verdict that came down from the judge. as simple as guilty and it moved forward to the mandatory
sentence of life in prison for eddie ray routh. is there an appellate process, is an appellate court going to be part of the next steps as we look to the next several weeks? >> absolutely. the first stage and the next 30 days, the defense team will get together and they can if they want to file a motion for new trial which essentially begins to catalogue whatever legal mistakes they think that judge jason cashon made. that's pretty much a formality. i think they have a better chance of winning the heisman trophy than a motion for a new trial. then appellate process starts in earnest. a three-judge court that will probably hear this case sometime within the next year. written briefs will be filed. oral argument and a decision ultimately rendered. as we talked about, the over/under is not good for the defense. less than a 4% chance of success during that first appeal. and then on to the court of criminal appeals and austin, our
state's high court for criminal cases. >> why are you saying the likelihood of getting that which you just described, a retrial in essence here is like winning the heisman? why is the chance so small? >> well, because this judge has demonstrated and wasn't inside the courtroom. from following media reports daily. did he what we want great judges to do. he made calls based upon reason, common sense and the law. and with the exception of the change of venue, historically, defendants simply don't win on appeal with any great frequency. and on a case of this nag me to do, a case that is not just resonated within the county but literally nationally and internationally, appellate court judges in texas who are elected to six-year terms are not unaware of the significance of a case like this. and it is not going to make it any easier for eddie ray routh to ultimately win down the
appellate road in the next two to four years. >> does appellate court say there was a movie that came out. $400 million at the box office. a lot of attention no doubt at the oscars this past weekend nix part of the element saying the defense saying we wanted a fair trial, maybe we didn't get it. >> it is the argument they're going to make. remember, this jury was instructed from the very beginning not to follow the case in the numbs, on tv, and social media. and we like to believe, in fact, there is a presumption in the criminal justice system that when we tell the jury that, they are ultimately going to follow that mandate. and again, it is not that this case wasn't highly publicized. not that this movie didn't do great numbers at the box office. it is not that chad and chris were american heroes. it is that the test is so very difficult that so long as a
juror can disregard what they've seen, heard or read, that's all that the law requires. the sixth amendment doesn't guarantee you a perfect trial. it guarantees you a fair one. >> in short, a lot to watch in the next 30 days or so. but not likely that we'll see any change in what has happened this evening. thank you so much. appreciate your time. criminal defense attorney and former special prosecutor. as we've been at what's happening in the courtroom there in stephenville, one of the statements that were many, many were looking to hear was a reaction from family members. and chad littlefield's mother came to the microphones not too long ago. >> we've waited two years for god to get justice for us on behalf of our son. and as always, god has proved to be faithful and we're so thrilled that we have the verdict. that we have tonight.
and thank you for being so compassionate and treating us with respect and honoring us. thank you very much. >> chad littlefield's mother speaking. joining us now, former congressman, patrick murphy, host of msnbc's taking the hill and a veteran of the iraq war. and you know, as we've watched this entire story develop over the last couple years, it has been a tough story to tell and tough for those in the military community such as yourself. and to listen there to chad littlefield's mother come out and speak with such courage, and really saying that everybody has treated them with dignity throughout this process. and some might say, that doesn't often happen with cases like this. especially given what the headline demands from many places. >> yeah, richard. when i heard chad's mother live on tv, you know, my heart broke. it is hard not to think about
how your own mom would react. we've all been following this case for over two years. at the end of the day, there are three marines, their lives and their families that have changed. one will go to jail for the rest of their lives. these are combat veterans. part of 1% of america. frankly, less than 1% of america that is borne such a heavy burden during the longest war in american history. many of these folks who have deployed multiple times. the defendant in this case, eddie routh, he deployed twice in iraq and then haiti. and two victims. you look at chris kyle. one of the most famous marines in our country, four
deployments. four times he left his wife and kids. to go serve. and when he came home, if you read his book, if you saw the movie "american sniper," how he personally struggled with ptsd. and there is no doubt that eddie routh, who did such a heinous act, let's be clear, a heinous act, he's been struggling as well. combat changes a lot of people. and oftentimes you don't come back the same person. which is why it is so important when we send our young men and women in harm's way. and that decision is made by our political leaders. congress makes that decision to declare war. we must do it for the right reasons. >> we have the victims and the families of those victims. chris kyle, chad littlefield and you have eddie ray routh. and as you discussed this on the
show, as well as conversations you had with other veterans, how do you distinguish between those different levels of pain? because clearly you can understand it in a way that others cannot. as you think of the littlefields and the kyles and the rouths for that matter as well. >> listen, richard, did i two deployments. my brother did two deployments. i lost 19 men in my unl who never made it home. that stuff weighs out every day. my pain and most folks that i know, pales in comparison to how the kyles and the littlefields feel until they leave this earth go and back to heaven. it breaks your heart to see what's going on. veterans, leaders, the majority
of veterans come back and they're fine. there are things such as post-traumatic growth. veterans come back and do phenomenal things. but there are so many that do fall through the cracks. and we have an ethic in our military that we leave no one behind. but we know 22 veterans every day commit suicide. we know every night in america, there's 49,000 veterans who are homeless or out on the streets. hundreds of thousands of veterans who have served in iraq and afghanistan that suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. and we as a country need wrap our arms around that 1% who have served. as long as we're in american history, and let them know we're grateful, we're there for them every day. not just a government problem. it is an american challenge. >> patrick murphy, msnbc host, taking hill. former congressman, iraq war veteran. >> we're joined by the former
district court judge. anything surprise you here? >> i was surprised at how quick the verdict came back. honestly. i thought that it would probably go over into the next day. but you never know what a jury will do. they can come back in five minutes or six hours or over a day or they can hang up. you never know. that's up to the 12 ladies and gentlemen who make the decision in the case. >> help us understand this here if you can, michael. that is mandatory sentencing. is that common? how have you dealt with that in the past when you've had to run cases like this? >> it's a statutory mandate in the state of texas and throughout many of the states. essentially it is this. if a case is a capital murder case, then the state has the option of doing two things.
they can try to seek the death penalty in the case or they can do what is called a mini camp. not seek the death penalty. in the event of a verdict of guilty, it is automatic. life without parole. >> michael, why did he do this? this that was one of the questions that's been out there. however, what the jury was charged with trying to determine is, did he know what he did was wrong? and was there enough information from your perspective, as you were watching this case, that would help us get a better understanding as to why he did this and was there enough information to understand that other question, did he know what did he was wrong? >> that's an extremely interesting point that you're making. i had this discussion earlier today with my colleague, jack helms. motive, of course, is not an element of the offense. but certainly it would be better for the state if they were able
to show a motive in the case. there really didn't seem to be one here. but that doesn't necessarily carry the day. there didn't seem to really be a motive when charles manson committed his horrible murders 40 years ago. and yet he was found guilty. and not guilty by reason of insanity. on the other hand, you have andrea yates killing her kids in the bathtub, and dina cutting off her baby's arms. there's no way to explain that. and the verdict in those cases was not guilty by reason of insanity. you don't really have to have a motive. you can think someone is mean, evil and psychotic. >> michael snims, thank you so much for all of your help on msnbc giving us the perspective on what's been happening as just happening about an hour ago. we had that verdict of guilty coming from the judge of eddie ray routh of the murder and
killing of chris kyle and chad littlefield. we're 1:15 into that. we'll have more. we'll be back. you had to go deep into the cupboard. embarrassingly deep. can this mismatched mess be conquered... by a little bit of dish liquid? it can if it's dawn ultra. now even more concentrated... just one bottle has the grease cleaning power of two bottles of this other liquid. here's to the over extended family gathering. a drop of dawn and grease is gone. just tell us your budget and the "name your price" tool helps you find a whole range of coverages. no one else gives you options like that. [voice echoing] no one at all! no one at all! no one. wake up! [gasp] oh! you okay, buddy? i just had a dream that progressive had this thing called... the "name your price" tool... it isn't a dream is it? nope.
a jury has just found eddie ray routh guilty of capitol murder in the last hour or so in the shooting death and the friend and fellow veteran. routh, a former marine had pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. the prosecution argued he was well aware of his actions. he's been sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. we'll have more right after this.
welcome back. breaking news this hour, the verdict coming down out of stephenville, texas. eddie ray routh found guilty at around 1:15 minutes ago. chris kyle, chad littlefield, the victim in this case. he will spend the rest of his life in jail. joining us now by phone. the former public defender and professor at the national criminal defense college. any surprises as we have been talking this evening? the timing certainly was very quick. less than three hours. 2:45. that's one element. another element of interest here is this whole idea of a social verdict. this being a very well publicized case. we had, as i was mentioning earlier in the program, the oscars just not two, three days ago. and the widow being there and bringing the dog tags there of chris kyle.
>> let's be clear. this was a tragic incident compacted in my mine by a tragic verdict. there was so much evidence that this was a very deeply, deeply disturbed person. i mean, you have a mother pleading for the v.a. to keep him. you have the text messages. but the burden in this case to show that he didn't know what he had done was wrong is so unbelievably high. when you look at something this heart breaking, when you look at something this tragic, it is natural to just think, how could anyone not know that that was wrong? and i suspect when you get back in the jury room, that's the sentiment that took over. that and the fact that very often, we don't make cheer what a not guilty by reason of insanity verdict means. right? there's always the sneaking suspicion that somebody is somehow getting away with something or getting off or getting away.
as opposed to being punished and held accountable. and those narratives are so important in a jury's determination. >> and you heard the narratives being brought forth by the prosecution, as well as the defense. and they were, have been, at loggerheads with that reason of insanity. what swayed you one way or the other based on what was said during the case? >> well, you were talking to your guests earlier about motive. let me ask you this. when was the last time you heard of somebody shooting somebody else because they didn't shake their hand? it doesn't happen. that's not what happens with normal human beings. what that is, that's a crazy person. all of this stuff about motive. and the profound lack of a motive. the utter lack of a capacity to explain why something happened. not necessarily legally relevant, or at least not an element of the case. it shows to my mind just how
aberrant. and what is mental illness but aberrant. >> they came back very quickly, why? is this a deficiency in the legal structures available to them in the courtroom? >> in a way, yes. >> or instead of the prosecution and the defense? >> no. i don't think it is a failure of the prosecution or the defense. i think it is a failure of the system more generally. entire idea of not guilty by reason of insanity. and frankly, the difficulty in overcoming the mcnaughton rule which says you have to know it is wrong. asking people to say, you didn't know it is wrong is very, very hard to do. especially in something as egregious as killing an american hero. >> what happens next? this case is over. basically as they go through the appellate court, not much will change. >> no.
he'll die in prison. with the vast likelihood is that he will die in prison. that will, as i said, compound the tragedy. a guest or two ago made the point that these are three lost marines. and i think that's right. >> yes. that was patrick murphy. as we look at the legalistic structures that we're saying are deficient, is there enough here that something may change? >> i wouldn't be thatment on miss particular, no. i suspect that it will never entirely go away. but this sort of thing will continue to be repeated in court rooms around the country. i think that there needs to be a movement toward a deeper understanding of the fact. when there is a guilty by insanity treatment. they go to be treated forever, often for decades. this is not like you escape from punishment. this is more like we deal with the actual problem. in this case, somebody's terrible mental disability or
the guilty verdict in the sniper trial. eddie ray routh has been found guilty in the murder. that murder coming out about an hour and 15 minutes ago. routh pleading not guilty to the killings by reason of insanity. he's been sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. >> having received and accepted the jury's verdict in this matter, confinement for high of in the texas department of criminal justice without the possibility of parole. >> now shortly after the verdict was delivered, the mother of one of the victims, chad littlefield shared her reaction. take a listen. >> we've waited two years for god to get justice for us on behalf of our son. and as always, god has proved to be faithful.
keep calm and stay rational on what is emotional manipulation by people who are invested in our emotional manipulation and achieve it in large part by propaganda videos. but the ability of them to murder people they have captured and make videos of those murders does not correlate in any meaningful way to the threat they pose to americans in the middle east. isis is losing according to vox today.
the report feels like it might has well be coming from mars. joining me now is zach beauchamp. it makes me feel like cleveland is surrounded by isis. >> i'm right and they're wrong. here is why. isis is beating back, most importantly in northern iraq. a road has been cut off by kurdish forces, and in baghdad where they have made progress into territory held by isis. in syria, they have been stopped time and time again and pushed back with the help of u.s. airstrikes. they have lost their ability to make serious offensive moves like they were in the summer of 2014.
>> the summer of 2014 is when they kind of, literally, put themselves on the map in terms of the territory they took. so what i'm hearing from you is there are two forces that seem to be most effective against them right now. kurdish fighters an an iraqi army backstops by u.s. and coalition air strikes and you say they're winning right now. >> we need to be care about about the iraqi army that is kind of a mess. they're aligned with the government, but not officially part of the military. these militias have been helping the army make their major progress and territory. we're not sure how effective it is, but the militias with the effective parts of the army and the kurds have done serious harm
to isis. >> do we -- we have a mab showing territory here. you can see it is a little hard to see, but you see the map on the right is quite a bit smaller in certain ways than the mab on the left, particularly if you look at the western portion of that mab. there are significant portions of territory that essentially they no longer control. the question here is are we headed toward a route and victory? or essentially a stalemate? >> so in iraq, the prediction i hear is no. that isis in the long run will not be able to hold on to the territory. the first one is it doesn't have the amount of force necessary to administer to these territories like a government. they will stop functioning and
they have a little difficulty working there. the second reason is they're overmatched by the combined iraqi forces. they have all of these different factions bearing down on them with american air strikes, and they won't be able to hold on to the territory by pushing these guys out. >> and the other remarkable thing about isis is they have managed to ailenate -- everyone hates them. uniformly. groups that hate each other in any other context equally hate isis. >> is it because they like to kill people. it is part of their ideology that you have to submit or be destroyed. if that's the way you think about the world you're very bad at making friends. even al qaeda is friends with the syrian resistance because
in the years after 9/11, we know that the cia operated black sites around the world. undisclosed facility people were taking to be interrogated. the city of chicago is operating what is called the domestic equivalent of a cia black site. one man was convicted with two others of having an incendiary device. he was taken to a facility after his arrest and he described his experience. >> they took us to this building. we were never booked or processed.
i was in homeland square for about 17 hours handcuffed to a bench before i was finally allowed to see an attorney. >> that is not at issue. the issue is is it used for keeping arrestees out of official booking databases. denying attorneys access to the secure facility. holding people without legal counsel.
we also ask the office of may your rahm emanuel for comment. they have not responded, but today is an election day in chicago and rahm emanuel is watching the results of the poll. up next, the reporter will get to reply to the cpd. s nothing more romantic than a spontaneous moment. so why pause to take a pill? and why stop what you're doing to
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bar. >> it is a domestic black site. >> he was interrogated without being read his rights. he says when you go in, no one knows what's happened to you. joining me now is spencer ackerman. the cpd pushing back hard saying this is nothing. the facility there, people know it, and any time a suspect is brought there or any cpd facility in the city, they get booked. >> when do they get booked, where do they get booked. look at everything they say. they say you'll get access to a lawyer. when do you get access to that lawyer. how do lawyers get access to homan square. i had attorneys say when they go there they are turned away.
there is also no booking record. family members and lawyers don't even know where people are when they're taken to this place. all of these questions the chicago police hide. >> so you're saying this facility is used, that suspects are brought there to be interrogated without their lawyers and also outside of the normal channels of booking, right? there is a window of time they're in there. >> yes, sir, many times when the interrogations are finished they're either let back out on the street, some are suspects, some are witnesses. sometimes the police can't figure out if they have evidence on people and let them go, but if they do, eventually, they're taken by the 11th district and then they're booked. in between those times the people have essentially disappeared. people who do the unglamorous work of going to police stations
to make sure that no inherently coercive interrogations take place do not know where these people are. >> you are alleging, your reporting is alleging a massive cpd conspiracy to systematically violate the constitutional rights in a matter that is prima fascia, taking mace under the noses under the entire press core. do you stand by that? >> i do. >> how is it possible that is going on and it's not in the "chicago sun times" or any reader. >> i wish you could tell me that. you spent more time in chicago than i have. what i heard was that they tried to interest journalists in
looking into homan square for years and got no takers. why is that? i have no idea. what i have seen in the time that i have been reporting this and another story that a former chicago cop that became a guantanamo torturer, and had signs of doing that to black chicagoians is that is difficult to get institutional chicago to be interested in what happens to black and brown chicagoans. he was found unresponsive in a room. the medical examiners office could not locate any record for a cause of death. it remains unclear why he was every in police custody. the medical examiner contacted me and said that he died from heroin intoxication. how could he have been in
custody, if you know people who have done through heroin withdrawal, how could that have happened? how could he not have gotten to a hospital? how could he have been found dead? i don't have the answers because it is sure cause for investigation. >> today rahm emanuel is on the ballot, there is a reparations bill for the victims of a chicago police detective that tortured confessions out of people. >> he didn't just torture them, he electrocuted them. he did them to people in chicago that people don't care about. chicago police, whatever they want to say, they dodged the real issues, they only responded after my story ran, not last week. it has a history and a context. >> mayor emanuel is standing in the way of that bill.
spencer ackerman, thank you, the article is incredible, we linked it on our facebook page. "the rachel maddow show" is now. >> we'll have updates on the election in chicago tonight. and we'll have those as it comes in. thanks. so, it is fight night apparently right now. in terms of big fight nights, this is sort of like the biggest one of recent 50 years memory, right? muhammad ali and joe frazier. they billed that thing as the fight of the century. there is was a lot of other big boxes matches, so maybe it is hyperbole, but the hype for ali-frazier, it was like