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tv   The Rachel Maddow Show  MSNBC  July 7, 2016 9:00pm-10:01pm PDT

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you handed a bunch of these out. >> we wanted to show a person of interest who witnesses at the scene say were involved in the sho shooting, it witnesses at the scene say was involved in this shooting in some way. so this is a person of interest, as you can see, they're in camouflage, and they have a rifle strapped, slung, with the butt sticking up. we know that rifles were used to injure and kill dallas officers and our d.a.r.t. officers. so if anyone knows or recognizes this picture, please, immediately call 911. do not approach this suspect. we'll bring him to justice. [ inaudible question ]
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>> right. so again, the initial release was, we had ten officers shot. >> we've been listening to david brown, dallas police chief and dallas mayor mike raulings. we continue to call the breaking news there where, tonight, the police chief has just reported that 11 police officers have been shot in dallas. three of those police officers are dead. eight are wounded. the shooting broke out well over an hour ago. we now have the feedback from the press conference. >> there's a lot of questions out there we wanted to make sure everybody knew what happened. after the demonstration, there were about 800 people in that demonstration. we had 100 officers protecting the demonstrators and the
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surrounding area. after the demonstration, a march was taking place to the west end. and at 8:58, our worst nightmare happened. our dallas public safety, dallas police department, d.a.r.t. officers, were fired upon by shooters. i'm sad to say we've had deceased, and it is a heartbreaking moment for the city of dallas. i'm going to let chief brown go over the details of that, and then i'll come back and close and we'll take the questions that we can take. chief. >> first of all, this is a very emotional time for our department, for the law enforcement community here in dallas and across this country
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as it relates to this incident. what i can tell you is that just before coming out, we got information that we had a suspect cornered. that's in the garage on the second floor. we believe that it's one of the shooters and we are negotiating with that person as we speak. so i'm going to have to get back real quick. but we do know what happened is that two snipers, at least two snipers from elevated positions at the protest rally march ended, began firing upon our officers. ambush style. and shot, what we believe, at this point 11 officers. we confirmed one more since we put out the initial 10. 11 officers were shot and 3 are deceased. some shot in the back. we believe that these suspects were positioning themselves in a
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way to triangulate on these officers from two different perches in the downtown area and planned to injure or kill as many law enforcement officers as they could. we are -- [ no audio ] >> we have been listening to david brown, the dallas police chief and dallas mayor mike rowlings at a news conference in dallas. we just lost that live feed. we're continuing to follow the breaking news from dallas where, as you just heard from the chief, 11 police officers have been shot. three of them are dead. eight wounded. that's from two different police departments. the dallas police department and the dallas rapid transit police department. they have essentially the same functions, as you heard the mayor say just now. there are about 100 police officers out on duty on the
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street tonight to monitor, as they put it, assist the demonstrators who were demonstrating in dallas tonight and in other cities around the country, in protest of police use of deadly force in cases that were videotaped, captured on videotape this week. one in baton rouge, louisiana. the other in minnesota. those videotapes have sent people into the streets around the country. and as the police chief reported, it was about 8:50 p.m. in dallas tonight, that would be 9:50 p.m. eastern time, when shots suddenly rang out. shots clearly now we know aimed at police officers. you heard the report just now that some of those police officers were shot in the back. the negotiations with one of the shooters -- there's now been reports there are two shooters and the police chief said the two shooters took up positions
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in a parking garage, in elevated positions. and they -- and from those positions, they each had different angles on their targets. this is another -- this is another photograph from the dallas police have released of what they believe to be one of the suspects who they are still pursuing in dallas at this hour. they believe that both suspects had long guns, that they were firing at the officers tonight. they were in negotiations. they reported, the police reported to be in negotiations with one of the shooters who they had cornered. that seemed to indicate about half an hour ago that we might be in the wind-down stage of this. since that report was filed, then another report came that active shooting had resumed and another officer had just been shot and had just been taken to the hospital after being shot.
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we are joined again by kxas scott friedman, who is on the street there in dallas, has been reporting to us tonight from the scene. scott, that tragic update that we just got in the news conference brings the total to 11 shot, three dead, eight wounded with police officers. there was an earlier report indicating possibly seven bystanders, not police officers, also injured. we're very unclear now on the number of people not in law enforcement who could have been injured in this situation. that number is the next one we're going to try to get some definitive information about. do you have any more information about that, scott, the number of demonstrators or bystanders who were injured tonight? >> reporter: i do not, lawrence. i can tell you right now, i have a police sent circling overhead where we are right now. it's moved back from the main area of activity and appears to be looking now for someone or
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something on a street corner not far from the heart of the action. just a short time ago, we had dallas police come through the street we're on about a block and a half back, yelling with mega phones to people still out here to move back further. they also told us to stay down behind walls or along walls in the area for our own safety. again, the helicopter, we're not quite sure it split off from the main area, but it appears like they're looking for someone with a large search light along a street that is sort of outside again of that main area of activity here. >> scott, the police are showing pictures that have been submitted to them apparently by people who are at the demonstration of this one person of interest that they're calling him, one picture taken of frontal with his face very clear and another from behind, showing him with a rifle, carrying a
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rifle, which in this situation is -- that's legal in texas in this situation, isn't it? >> reporter: we do have open carry here, and people do exercise that right from time to time. that's right, lawrence. >> and they want us to have that picture up there, especially the one that shows the suspect's face, because they're looking for help on who this person is. they've given the phone number there in dallas to call if you have any information on who this person is. that is 214-671-3485. i wanted to repeat that number to an audience outside of dallas, because it's entirely possible someone far outside of dallas might know who this person is or have something helpful about this person that they could communicate to the dallas police. scott, the indication that they
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were scheduling a press conference was something that i took as a possibility that the situation might be under control. but chief brown said this is a -- he had to make this a brief press conference, specifically because the situation is not under control. >> reporter: yeah. it's very much still under way here, lawrence. in fact, the officer came by just a short time ago just reiterated again, it's on. it's still very much an active scene here. it's about an hour and a half, maybe a little more than that now, since we first heard the first police radio traffic indicating that officers had entered a building where they appeared to have the suspect cornered at this time. at one point, an officer on the radio indicated they had made verbal contact with the suspect, at least for a moment. we obviously don't know if that has continued or not. but there have been some reports here, and you heard the police chief mention there was still an active shooting going on here. not very long ago.
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so we know that officers have been in the building where they appeared to have at least one shooter cornered for quite some time. but this is still under way. >> scott, have you heard any more shots? >> reporter: we have not. and that's interesting. as we were hearing over the radio that there were perhaps other gunfire, we have not heard anything from where we are, and i would estimate i am about a block or less from one corner of the building that appears to be the center of the police activity here. >> we want to go back to jim cavanaugh. jim, i wanted to get your reaction to what you heard during that press conference, that hastily scheduled press conference of the situation that is still possibly a live fire situation. >> reporter: right. well, a lot of big facts he gave out. one, that they said they might have planted a bomb downtown, so we have an ongoing search for
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that. possibly that came from their interaction with this one shooter as a reporter just said, maybe inside a parking garage. so they might have yelled back and forth. he could have alluded that he had a bomb planted somewhere in downtown. so they've enlisted the help of the fbi, atf, dallas bomb squad. they put up the person of interest, lawrence, that they say witnesses had given them these photographs. as you pointed out, it's an open carry state, so someone can walk around a demonstration with a rifle like that, and it is completely legal. you know, before those laws were around, the police would immediately come up to someone like that carrying a rifle, you wouldn't be allowed to do it in many states, carry a rifle like that on the street. so this guy apparently some citizens took photographs of him. now the question is, was he just a citizen open carrying a rifle or is he one of the snipers who could easily walk into any
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parking garage with his rifle and his ammunition just saunlter right in with his rifle in full view and then start shooting the police. that's what their challenge is, to find out who he is, to negotiate further with the one they have cornered to squeeze him down. and then also simultaneously do a search of the downtown area for any bombs or explosives that police said they might have planted. >> the chief has used the phrase "person of interest" in his statement about this suspect who we showed the picture of. what threshold would be necessary for the chief to use that phrase "person of interest" here? presumably, the police are getting photographs sent to them now by demonstrators, certainly if anyone was there in an open carry situation, they would have been photographed and someone would have sent that photograph in. would they just get this photograph from someone who is carrying like that and say okay,
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that's good enough or would they have to have had some additional information, possibly something this person was heard to have said? >> i think you're exactly right on point. when they say a person of interest, it's almost like we used to say years ago, we want to question you. it's someone we want to talk to. they could still just turn out to be a witness who is openly carrying a rifle who is not involved or one of the shooters. if they say he's a suspect, we suspect him. that moves more towards the level of probable cause. it's a person we want to arrest, a person we have a warrant for, he's our suspect. they're not sure themselves. he's of interest to us. we have to find out more. >> jim, i -- >> it's not clear to them either. >> jim, i have to interrupt you. and the only reason i have been doing interruptions tonight is to bring the tragic news that the death count has increased,
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which it has increased now twice. we now have another officer who has died. that brings us to four officers who have been killed and you can see that's coming in a tweet from the dallas police department saying with heavy hearts, we are devastated to report a fourth officer has been killed. that is four out of a total of 11 shot. we do know that one of the officers who was killed was from the rapid transit police force. that presumably means that the other three are from the dallas police force. we had a report that two officers were in surgery recently. it may mean that one of those officers in surgery didn't make it through surgery. but this is the situation we are in. this is a situation in which the numbers have changed in the
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tragic direction throughout the last hour and a half now going up. i want to go to cal perry. cal, what's the latest? >> reporter: monitoring various things online, including cbsn, the digital channel of cbs. they've interviewed the brother of what this person identified as a person of interest. he said the rifle was unloaded and he gave the rifle to police earlier in the protest. police say they're looking into this. this is an ongoing and fluid situation. but that is what is being reported now. >> i want to go back to jim cavanaugh. jim, as i was looking at that photograph, i was wondering about the kind of thing we have seen in open carry states at large demonstrations, including at some political speeches given here and there, which is people making the point that it is an open carry state, wanting to
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make that point for a variety of reasons. and a variety of political reasons from left to right. it is the possibility, as we look at that picture, that this is someone who was just making that point, putting himself among the crowd and deliberately, possibly wanting to be photographed. and that would help explain, as you just did, why the phrase "person of interest" was used about that photograph instead of suspect. in what we just heard from that person's -- the person who claims to know him, that this was an innocent use of a gun like that. that would explain why it says person of interest on that. >> that's right. and it upsets some citizens, of course, because they're taking photographs of the guy, front and back. they see him with the rifle, even though it's completely legal in texas. you can see from those photographs it's earlier, more daylight.
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the demonstrators behind him, they're holding hands, holding up signs, smiling. the second picture where you see his back, there's a little boy on maybe his father's shoulders. so this is before any shooting. so this guy is either just exercising open carry or if he was the shooter, nothing had happened yet. but i think that's what the police are trying to do, sort out who is this guy, what is this about? open carry is a right in texas, but it also gives a lot of apprehension to people. if someone is walking across a parking lot to the supermarket where you happen to be a customer and he's carrying a rifle, who is he and what is he here for? used to, you couldn't do that. and now you can. and all of these mass shootings we see around the country, people are walking in with a rifle. we see the horrors of orlando and there's no way to stop them, because they haven't violated the law and cities and states
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have to deal with those issues. but we don't know his real role here yet. he may just be a witness, a demonstrator that is not involved at all, that is just doing an open carry and the police ought to sort that out. but they have the one guy barricaded, negotiating with him, yelling at him. and they had to get the information from him somehow. you know, about the bomb, that they planted a bomb. that could be just something he's yelling to keep the police at bay. it could very well be that he did plant a bomb. if you're willing to shoot ten plif police officers, you may plant a bomb, as well. >> we're joined by congressman pete sessions, whose district in dallas is where this kerred. congressman sessions, i'm very cory for the loss that the police departments there have suffered tonight. unprecedented tragic loss for
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american law enforcement and for especially texas and dallas law enforcement. i just want to get your reaction to what's occurred tonight and any additional detail you might be able to help us with. >> yeah, it is sad. i'm here in washington. we've been on the floor of the house tonight doing business. to come back and find out now, the most current 11 officers shot, four killed. it seems to me that what has happened is a peaceful protest that the dallas police department was very, very much a part of, the peaceful, peaceful opportunity to come out in dallas and to say, all the lives matter and that the police joined with these citizens, i assume, of dallas in a peaceful way. it was a deliberate attempt to
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kill police officers. and it's obvious that when 11 officers are shot and four killed, that we have some really, really sick people. and it's sad, and the dallas police department is, i believe, and have heard regularly, one of the finest police departments in the country. they work hard and diligently. i know many of the officers. i've known them for 30 years. they are men and women of integrity. they're men and women who care about each other. it's a very diverse police department. it's one in which hispanic officers, men, women help each other. asian officers. it is a sad night. and in fact, this is about a mile from my house, though i don't believe -- i believe this was a shared part of the city with another member of congress. but i will tell you that dallas has tried its best over the
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years to be aware of itself to the world, to the nation. we, of course, were home to a shooting in 1963 that shaped some of the history of the world and some sadness. we've tried sense then to be very, very cognizant of peaceful interaction with each other. and unfortunately tonight, someone has taken advantage of that. it's a sad thing with the family and for the city. i mourn with our city, but mostly for the families who lost officers. >> congressman sessions, we've heard from the mayor and the police chief who held a brief press conference and in a situation where as far as they knew, the possibility of a shooting was still live. officers engaged, they believe, in a negotiation with at least one of the shooters.
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they believe they've identified two different positions that two shooters were firing from. have you been able to have any contact with the mayor or police chief at this point? >> in fact, they are busy. that they are doing the very best they can. david brown, our police chief, is a well regarded leader who is for peaceful solutions. but no, i am not. i'm trying to let them do their job. i'm in washington. i'm watching -- i have been watching for the past two hours from my home here. and i am concerned that what happened is, these officers may have somehow perhaps let their guard down to find that more were shot. i don't know of the confrontation, i don't know the circumstances, and i'm very
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fearful that what happened is, they were sadly, sadly mistaken and lured into a circumstance. and there's a thought that there is a bomb or some explosives that are in the area also. so it's a sadness that they've been targeted. >> congressman sessions, obviously, as you said the then administration is going very peacefully. every report indicated that the dallas misconsidpolice consider themselves out there to facilitate this then administration. talk about that, the way the dallas police approach demonstrations lake this. >> the dallas misdepartmelas po are very integrated into the community group of people. they are very friendly. men and women of the police department are seen in good light downtown.
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they have a tough job to do. there are people who are homeless, who are having problems. the police always, from our opinions, have operated in ways to be of assistance. they've taken to people to hospital. our first responders, our firefighters, they work well together. this was a circumstance that was expected to be -- and dallas tries to be a part of the nation of the sobering viewpoint that we have to come together in this country. we cannot solve our problems by looking at each other with differences in a way that is hateful. and i think the officers had been tweeting out during this. i was told by a number of my police officer friends and the community of police officers that they had been tweeting out that they were proud to be with these group of people.
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they were not there to do anything of harm, not the protesters, not to do anything of harm. but were there to be a part of saying dallas needs to be aware to avoid these things in our community. there's sometimes where you have peaceful opportunities and interaction where people do wish to say not here. and it turned into a different circumstance. >> congressman sessions, you mentioned national tragedies that occurred in dallas in 1963. sadly now, july 7th, 2016, will be a new date of tragedy in dallas, this situation unprecedented, especially in -- >> not five blocks from where president kennedy was shot. >> and this is -- for law enforcement agencies of this size, to have 11 shot, four dead, is a stunning blow, and congressman, i'm very sorry for
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the losses that your friends in that department have suffered and the loss that you have suffered tonight. greatly appreciate you joining us with everything you could help us with on this tonight. really appreciate it, congressman sessions. >> you bet. thank you. >> thank you very much. i want to get an update now from cal perry. cal? >> reporter: confusing situation. i'm just going to report this as clearly as i can. the person of interest, and we've seen the photo circulated by the dallas police department. there is video circulating widely online that shows that person of interest ground level during the shooting. ground level during the shooting, not at an elevated position, walking naturally with this rifle slung over his shoulder. multiple eye witnesses are now coming forward and saying that this is not the shooter. that the police are circulating the wrong photo, and these videos, it is clearly him in the video. nbc is going to independently confirm this. we have our own process, but widely being circulated online
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is this video showing this person of interest with this camouflage on street level as the shooting is taking place, not in any kind of elevated position where the snipers would have been. >> i just want to indicate on this phrase "person of interest" going back to jim cavanaugh. this is why they used that phrase, "person of interest," instead of the word "suspect" and they put out the photograph in the hope that helpful information would come in. and that could be helpful information in more than one direction, helpful information indicating this person's status should be elevated to suspect or helpful indicating that this person may not have been involved in any way. so it seems to me it makes perfect sense that the dallas police would have put this picture out and asked for help. >> exactly. and even the person himself they want him to call in and say i'm joe smith. my picture has been on the news,
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what do you need? and i left my rifle with the patrol officer. okay, we needed to talk to you. we just need to make sure, and then it's all sorted out and the police know firsthand that this person is not involved. so that's a common technique. a person is put out, who is this person? we need to talk to this person. they may be a witness. sometimes they're a victim. but it doesn't seem like this guy is. it seems like those pictures, as you and cal reported, he's probably just an open carry and he might have even surrendered his rifle before he left the area. >> we want to go back to some of the video that we have shown that was taken, captured in camera phones on the scene there tonight in dallas. some of it shocking video, and some of it includes the audio of a number of shots that is just impossible to count, as you're hearing this video play out with all of the shots in it. one of them was taken by a man
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named michael batista, who was very near the street location where the officers were being fired at. we showed you that video at some length. earlier tonight, i think we have that video ready to go again now. [ gunfire ] [ sirens ] [ sirens ] >> they're shooting right now, and there's an officer down. it's coming from the right over
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there, from around these buildings. i don't know, main street and lamar. this is main street and lamar. there's an officer down. they're moving in on somebody. i think they might have got somebody. don't worry, i'm behind a tree. i think another officer is down around the corner over here. they got s.w.a.t. over here. i can't really -- i can't really get any closer. i'm safe, man, don't worry about it.
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i appreciate it, though. i love y'all. there's somebody else down over there, as you can see around this corner. i don't know if y'all can see that. >> get out of there, get out of there! >> they're telling me to go. i've got to go. i got everything, man, i got everything. all right. i'm going to have to switch over to another app, because i've got to -- >> we have another update from the dallas police, and this one indicates that the person of interest whose picture has been circulated just turned himself in. the written statement begins,
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with heavy hearts, we are devastated to report a fourth officer has died. the person of interest whose picture has been circulated just turned himself in. another alleged suspect was in a shootout with dallas s.w.a.t. officers. that suspect is also in custody. a suspicious package was discovered near this suspect's location. the package is being secured by dpd bomb squad. we'll provide more information as we receive it. i want to go to jim cavanaugh. jim, the news that the fourth officer has died was something we already had. but now this news that the person of interest, whose picture has been out there, haste turned himself in, very important news. also, in this statement, that a suspect is also in custody. >> yeah. it's -- you know, it's still unclear. there were reports earlier of two shooters.
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but did that get confused? in other words, was there one shooter who was barricaded in the parking garage, which they now have in custody? and then the second man, who we don't quite know his status, who was carrying the rifle in the photograph. could be innocent open carry, or could be another shooter. or was witnesses confusing him as a second shooter? so that's not quite clear. the suspicious package that the bomb squad is going to disrupt and they'll use their robots and their disrupters and make sure we call it render it safe. and they'll take care of that. so maybe, maybe just possibly there's only one shooter and this other guy was mistaken for the second shooter. we don't quite know yet. we don't quite know his role, if he's an innocent citizen attending the rally with open carry. but he turned himself in. it doesn't seem to fit with the behavior of someone that would just shoot down ten police officers, that he would just surrender. you know, it's possible.
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sometimes people do those things, but it doesn't seem right at the moment. if you're in that kind of a blood letting, you know, just a mass homicidal mania, you know, it's not that you just -- oh, my picture is on television, i guess i'll surrender. that's not normal. not saying it couldn't happen, but i would say it's unlikely. so it's possible that some of the confusion that's going on whether there was one shooter or more. >> we've been in live breaking news coverage for two hours in dallas, texas where 11 police officers have been shot. four police officers killed. we're going to continue our live coverage now with brian williams. brian? >> lawrence, thank you. i've had the unusual experience of listening to you on satellite radio driving back into the city from across the liver in new jersey where i had to attend a meeting tonight. it got more and more harrowing,
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and unbelievable with each detail. and here is where we find ourselves as 12:35 a.m. east coast time. we have something of a national emergency happening in north texas. and that is, especially for people of a certain age, some of this is playing out right near where president kennedy was murdered. some of the dead and injured have been brought to parkland hospital, which was first in the news in 1963, as lawrence pointed out. we have, as you see the graphic on the screen says, 11 officers shot, four of them killed. we have nervous and anxious and desperate families of those officers, of other officers in dallas, streaming into hospitals, trying to get information from individual precincts. you're going to hear two different appreciations tonight,
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and one of them is dpd, dallas police department. the other is d.a.r.t., the dallas area rapid transit. and there is a mixture of officers this that group of 11. as jim cavanaugh and others have been warning, if you've been with us through this coverage, fog of war rules apply, as well. this is all early. we've had this mix-up in the photograph over the person of interest, over the suspect. we've had a mix-up in the number of suspects they may be seeking. when you listen to the press conference from the dallas police department, perversely, it sounds as if one or more sniper set up something of a kill zone in dallas, texas, perhaps using a parking garage near bank of america, if you're
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familiar with the downtown section of dallas, texas. we have a live guest on the phone from our television station in dallas-ft. worth dallas. scott friedman is with us. scott, what can you add to what we've just reported? >> reporter: brian, just a short time ago, we saw another armored vehicle arrive here, more s.w.a.t. team officers getting out of that vehicle, and running behind a building at el central college, which is near the bank of america tower that you just described. again, we have heard the reports here of a suspect in custody, but i will tell you from where i am standing, it has not changed the posture of the officers in front of us. we still have officers with guns drawn at the corner of one of those buildings. we are getting some reports, and fog of war certainly applies here. we're getting some reports of a car chase perhaps happening near our location on interstate 35 that may be related to this.
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i will tell you that a police helicopter that's been circling over us for much of the evening broke off a while ago and seemed to be searching downtown streets away from the area that's been the center of activity for most of the evening. and we're not sure what to read into that, whether they were searching for a person who may have left that area, another vehicle, or whether they were looking for suspicious packages. we've heard police say they're concerned that perhaps a suspect or suspects may have planted explosives in the area, as well. so we don't know if they were perhaps involved in a search for some sort of suspicious package or device. >> scott, can you explain what an open carry law is for people who don't live in an open carry state, especially on both coasts. our viewers watching at this hour, whether or not the photo of the suspect turns out to be the suspect, it was a gripping
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image to see someone with an ar-15 slung over his shoulder. >> reporter: we do see that from time to time here, brian. i will tell you, we don't see it very often. i've lived in dallas for ten years, and i say maybe only a couple of occasions where i've seen somebody, you know, carry a long gun since that's been allowed, you know, here in the state. it is a right that some people choose to exercise. we have groups from time to time that will make a point of that, where they have an event, where they'll have rifles out in the open. we have folks now who carry hand guns, as well, on their hip openly, since that became legal here in texas not long ago. so it is something that you see from time to time. i will say in the city of dallas, it's not something that you certainly don't see it every day. if very often at all. >> scott, is it your summary of
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the police press conference, that they were trying to describe something of a kill zone, maybe triangulated snipers? >> reporter: that's certainly what the police chief said here tonight, he said in that news conference that it was more than one sniper who set up on roof tops with the intent, he believes, to target police officers. and obviously from the numbers and the fact that we're hearing so far just injuries and wounds to police officers, that would certainly appear to be the case. brian, this has been going on for well over two hours now, since i first got into the area and we were listening to very dramatic police radio transmissions, officers indicating they were attempting to corner one of these suspects in a building at el central college, located on the west end of dallas. and at one point, we heard officers say they had made verbal contact with the suspect. we don't know how long that
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verbal communication lasted. but we do know this has been more than two hours now where this has been an active scene here. >> and for our viewers for whom some of this is repetitious, we apologize. we've had something of a shift change here as we continue in live coverage. scott, just a situation, or people who aren't familiar with downtown dallas, if i am correct, this is blocks from dealey plaza, blocks from the book depository. bank of america is not far from there. is there an omni hotel that is close by? this is all within a several block area, correct? >> reporter: correct, it is. where i'm standing at one corner of the main portion of the scene here, it would be -- dealey plaza would be two to three blocks from my location. so certainly this, as it was
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then, just a devastating night for dallas. you can imagine the difficulty of these officers as they're out here and continuing to try to do their jobs and bring this situation to a close, and they're getting word that a number of their colleagues have been killed and wounded tonight. their thoughts certainly with them and with their families. but also more immediately focused just on the situation at hand and trying to bring this to a conclusion. >> scott, we are fortunate we know to be able to have this time with you on the air. we are also aware that you have a job to do. in thanking you, i want to let you know that while you have been walking, we are watching a phalanx of police cars stopped behind an individual car. i would not be surprised if this turns out to be i-35 or at least an off and onramp. as scott mentioned, everything is heightened, of course.
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and police fevehicles, as they should, kind of rule the roads in dallas tonight. if police have asked us to disseminate one message, it's to get people indoors. get people out of the central business district. and get people consen 2r5i9ed on information that may lead to the arrest or apprehension of a suspect or suspects in this. but it is an absolute emergency, lockdown situation in dallas, in the dallas-ft. worth metroplex. certainly in the central business district of dallas, texas. steven young of the dallas observer, is at city hall or was at city hall earlier, was on the scene when this went down. steven, what can you tell us? >> i don't know how much more i can tell you beyond what you've been talking about. we've been told to expect
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potentially updates from the mayor and chief of police throughout the evening. but i'm not sure what i can give you that you haven't gone through with scott. besides just, you know, i was at the protest earlier, and it was, you know, striking for how peaceful it was. it was a very peaceful protest. i had broken off from the marchers and was in a different part of downtown when i got a text about the shots and i moved as quickly as possible towards the west part of downtown towards the shots and just started trying to piece everything together. >> let me start with the protests. folks are presumably tuning into this, as they learn of this every minute. so some repetition is probably a good thing. as was the case in major cities across the country tonight, as was the case here in new york,
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because of these dual police ho shootings in the news, over 24 hours in baton rouge and in minnesota, there were protests in major cities. the one in dallas tonight was no different. they were largely peaceful protests. it was happening not at all far from dealey plaza. well-known land mark location to most americans alive today. and steven, of the amateur video we're seeing, it's just folks who were taking video of the -- of protests when these shots rang out from a high angle, correct? >> reporter: yes. i mean, that's -- i've seen a couple videos so far, and that's what i've seen. it was kind of -- the protest was actual hi near where the shooti shooting occurred. and people marched from the protest in a large loop, first east, then back west in downtown. as the marchers were getting
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back towards the end of their march, that's when the shooting began. >> and we've had a report, another media report in the last 15 minutes that there was another engagement with police, meaning live gunfire was heard again in the central business district. steven, where you are in city hall, would you be able to hear that? >> reporter: no. city hall is actually kind of isolated from the area where most of this is occurring. >> all right. steven young, thank you very much. we thank all of our contributors for calling in and helping us out. jim cavanaugh, former special agent in charge, alcohol, tobacco and firearms remains with us. jim, you and i have had too many occasions to be together on live television, linked by satellite, talking about a mass shooting. tonight is among the worst
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imaginable, because we have officers of the law, and you made this point earlier. by wearing their uniforms, they were targets. but presumably because they wanted to exhibit a peaceful stance, they were not kited up in kevlar. they were not in the kind of dpeer that poli gear that police were so criticized in ferguson for wearing in an urban setting. >> that's right. they were out there in their patrol uniforms. you'll notice the green shoulder tab. that's the patrol division in dallas pd. red is traffic, green is patrol. you'll see those officers ducking behind their cars there. they were there at the demonstration, apparently it was very peaceful, cordial. police officers understand the criticisms, and they live with it and work with it. they want to be better. they don't like any of these
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shootings that occur either. but they want to be -- they're sometimes defensive. police officers also know when it's a bad shoot. they're not supporting a bad cops doing bad shoots, either. they're just trying to do their job and they need the thin blue line, we all do in a democracy, because we won't have a democracy unless we have the thin blue line. it is a critical point and part of criminal justice. so this strikes right at the heart of the american justice system. to shoot down 11 police officers in uniform in one of america's great cities, this is -- i can't even think when this has happened like this, just a sniper ambush. you pointed out, brian, the chief said it was -- he thought it was triangulated by two shooters, in other words, two different points of shooting. that remains to be seen. i think it's still unclear. was it two shooters?
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was it one shooter? it's still unclear. i'm sure they'll let us know once they get it calmed down. but they do have one person in custody, that's pretty important. >> jim, you talk about the thin blue line. having the unique perspective of a driving tonight, trying to get here, listening to you and lawrence on satellite radio, as this got more and more unbelievable. it started to feel like we had become unraveled. and when you think about it, the first time in the modern postwar era, americans really thought we were coming unraveled was dallas, texas, 1963. it's unbelievable. >> no, it is unbelievable. i was the assistant agent in charge of the dallas division right downtown was our office, just blocks from there.
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and walked those streets, worked with dallas pd. just a great force. the history of the assassination always overshadowed dallas as a city. and i talked with lawrence about the little known fact that the first time that lee harvey oswald was confronted at gunpoint by dallas police was inside the book depository. that's because the motorcycle officer heard the shots and saw the pigeons off the roof as he was riding facing the book depository would have made that l-turn, he saw the pigeons fly and he road his motor up. so dallas has had that sorted history. but that was a police force, j.d. tippett, a dallas policeman killed by lee harvey oswald. a solid case against oswald for killing tippett. so they've recovered.
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it's a great police force and they did everything they could that day. they've recovered and to have this happen to them is just heartbreaking to see this happen. and also the d.a.r.t. police, as you brought up and lawrence brought up, the transit police. you know, we've changed so much in america. transit police, university police, college police, facilities police. they're sometimes now the first line. that's where people attack, our transit or universities. sometimes those police officers are the first line in dealing with the shooters. so here's transit officers out there in blue. you know, operating that night in the thdemonstration. four of them shot down. >> especially when you're talking about the uniform making you a target, this is low resolution video, as our viewers know, some of this came off of
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periscope. some of it off of facebook live. some of it was just snatched down from social media. you look at the faces of these officers. they're getting out their kevlar. the vests are very heavy, and those canvas bags you see coming out of trunks and the back seat, they're getting their vests on, the officers who weren't wearing them because it was a hot summer night. a peaceful protest. these are officers coming in off shift. these are officers coming in from other jurisdictions, other precincts. other parts of dallas. and ft. worth, as jim cavanaugh mentioned, the city of dallas, the modern metroplex that it is, has worked mighty hard to get beyond its place in american history from that november day in 1963. and now this, which will link it to violence yet again in the modern era. we have two pieces of business
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to conduct here. we left you hanging on a live picture of a traffic stop. appeared to be on i-35, a part of the elevated interstate roadway. there we are. there was a car in front of the patrol cars, if we can widen out. and i got the strong suspicion that we were not pushing in as tight as could have for fear of what we would see, had this been another shooting incident. we are told this was resolved peacefully. and we are told from our station in dallas-ft. worth, kxas, that this was not deemed to be connected with tonight's shooting. but these are live helicopter pictures. i'll tell you what else, the skies are crowded over dallas tonight. because in addition to the police helicopters, which take precedence, as they should,
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heavy high powered flashlights on the bow of the ship, so to speak, all of the media organizations are up and aloft above dallas, stopping only to refuel, to bring us these live pictures. also, what has come in to us via our station kxas, is the following. this is sound, apparently an interview with a person identified as the brother of the suspect, the brother of the person of interest tonight. we're all going to be hearing this for the first time. >> that was him. on that corner, that was him. he didn't have a firearm. because i had a feeling with him having an ar-15 with him, when shots started firing, i said give your gun to the cops so there's no misidentification or question, nothing like that. and even though he gave his gun to a cop, they still got him plastered all over the media.
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>> so you saw him hand his gun over to police? >> 100%. whatever cop was on that corner there, he gave it to that cop. he don't have his gun. >> so you are confident? >> 100%. listen, man -- hold on, first of all, these guys came with him. so these are his classmates. 100% it's not him. >> we came together. he didn't even have it loaded. so i don't know what is going on, why we're still here. there's no other suspect. but he's not a suspect. we drove out here together. we parked right there. >> what's your name? >> david. >> and you rode out here together? >> i met him in arlington and we drove out here. >> they're saying there were two
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snipers, elevated positions. does your brother have any skill to do that? >> we were on the ground. >> my brother was marching with us. because he's my brother and i understood the severity of the situation, my first instinct was to tell him, get that gun away. the fire is coming from a different location. but i knew, i knew, because he had his firearm, that someone, a cop could misidentify him. so i made sure he gave his gun to a cop. >> do you know where he went? >> he was on his way home. he was on his way home. i'm telling the police, i'm telling the country -- >> and the police are pulling you away right now. >> whoever put this picture up as my brother as a suspect, mark hughes is not a suspect. his gun was not loaded. when the shots started firing, he gave his gun to law enforcement. >> why did he bring a gun to a peaceful protest? >> the same reason other people do, he was exercising his right.
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and he never thought about exercising his right he would be plastered all over the national media as a suspect. >> i suppose we owe it to the brother of the man who was mentioned as a person of interest, since his photo was plastered all over national media, to perhaps show the man again in the context of his brother's plea, that he not be considered a suspect. he was an individual wearing a camo t-shirt, with an ar-15 style long gun slung over his shoulder. there's been much hubbub on social media, and among media organizations that the wrong picture was aired, that perhaps dallas p.d., this their haste to get this thing solved, identified someone who was, in fact, as we just heard, innocent and not part of the shooting. this is the photo we were asked
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to disseminate. camo top, and that strap across his shoulder belongs to an ar-15 style long gun. to our viewers with us on msnbc, as we approach 1:00 a.m. eastern, 1:00 a.m. eastern, 10:00 p.m. on the west coast, i want to bring you in on what we have to do here and what needs to transpire in another 50 seconds. you'll have to hear me pause. we're going to bring online the nbc television network, nbc stations, across the country. we're in the heart of primetime, as many of you know, on the west coast. and of course, the central time zone where there is heavy interest in this story, in both the dallas-ft. worth metroplex, where our station is going wall-to-wall and pre-empting our
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coverage elsewhere in the region. so we're going to be recapping at the top of the hour for a national television audience that perhaps is not up on all the details of this and may have been watching entertainment programming tonight when we interrupt.

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