tv Dateline Extra MSNBC July 9, 2016 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
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first and foremost for the families who have been killed, but also for the entire american family. as painful as this week has been, i firmly believe that america is not as divided as some have suggested. >> hello, i'm joy reid near in new york. speaking in warsaw, poland, president obama capped a devastating week for americans with the deaths of two black men at the hands of police officers first in louisiana, then minnesota. and the ambush attack on police officers in texas. it was a week of unspeakable violence. and outrage. >> no justice no peace. >> there were two fatal police shootings of after american american. 37-year-old alton sterling on tuesday in baton rouge, 32-year-old fill lan dole castile on wednesday near the twin cities. >> oh, my god, please don't tell
me he's dead. please don't tell me my boyfriend just went like that. >> reporter: the shootings left a trail of sorrow across the country. this is alton sterling's 15-year-old son. and this is fill lando castile's mother. >> it was my son today, but it could be yours tomorrow. >> reporter: there are so many questions but no easy answers. >> would this have happened if those passengers, the driver, the passenger were white? i don't think it would have. i'm forced to confront and all of news minnesota are forced to confront this kind of racism exists. >> we cannot allow black men to continue to be slaughtered. this morning i woke up to my wife literally crying. >> this is not just a black issue. it's not just a hispanic issue. this is an american issue. >> reporter: by thursday, america was a nation on edge. it was a day and night of
protests. with an urgent message. black lives matter. in downtown dallas, a crowd estimated at more than 800 people marched through the streets. there was passion. but there was also peace. in a week of us against them, black versus white, the police and the protesters in dallas seemed determined to get along. >> when the officers asked that we would stop for our own safety, we did so. they helped direct our route. and it was a peaceful rally and a very peaceful protest. >> reporter: for almost two hours demonstrators chanted and marched peacefully. dallas police by their side. then just before 9:00 p.m., as the march was ending, the crack of semi-automatic fire. >> all of a sudden, we just heard gunfire and there were shots ringing out it felt like from every direction. we didn't know which way to hide, which way to go. >> reporter: people scattered gripped by panic. >> just started to run and grab kids and them their mothers get
somewhere safe. we didn't want anyone hurt. >> reporter: one mother was shot and injured shielding her children from the bullets. this father and son lost each other in the crowd. >> reporter: what was the most terrifying part about all of it. >> the most terrifying part was us being separated and not knowing where the bullets was coming from and seeing an officer drop right in front of you. >> reporter: as they ran away from the gunfire, police ran toward it and it quickly became clear the shooter had police officers in his sights. >> all of the cops were shot. i saw cops bending over, man. it had to have been like five or six cops getting shot down. >> reporter: but where was the shooting coming from? how many shooters were there? >> somebody's really armed to the teeth. >> reporter: the police scanner burst into life. >> we've got a guy with a long rifle. >> reporter: but in this chilling video, there he was rifle in hand, taking cover behind a pillar, moving with tactical military precision.
by now, more police had rushed to the area. a sea of squad cars, a fail lanks of officers in s.w.a.t. gear, warnings went out. stay away from downtown. >> there's four comes down. >> reporter: but those civilians caught in the area holed up and hiding witnessed what happened next. none of it seemed real. >> there's a sniper from up here somewhere. >> it's a sniper? >> get down. >> reporter: nowhere seed safe. one man prayed in the parking garage. behind him, the sound of sirens and more gunfire. >> get back! get back! >> reporter: by 10:23, there were reports of four officers shot. a few minutes later, it was ten officers shot. three of them dead. the police chief said he believed there were two snipers. >> they're shooting! >> reporter: on twitter, dallas police posted a photo of this man in a camouflage shirt who was apparently carrying a long
gun. possibly a rifle with the message, this is one of our suspects. please help us find him. the man later identified as mark hughes is seen in this video walking up to an officer and giving him his rifle. it turned out he wasn't a sniper, just a protester who had a license to carry the weapon. after being questioned by police, hughes was released. meanwhile, the grim numbers continued to rise. 11 officers had been shot and police announced the death of a fourths officer. >> looks like it's inside the el centro building, inside the building. >> reporter: then nearly two hours after the first shots were fired, police and s.w.a.t. teams converged on the el cent toll pashing garage and cornered a suspect. a cluj student on the campus captured the sounds of gunfire. >> there's somebody shooting at el centro college. >> reporter: chaos and confusion. was there one shooter or two?
>> everything is locked down. >> reporter: around 11:30, police say they took a female suspect into custody but a male suspect was still at the scene. the drama switched from shooting to talking. around midnight, police say they're negotiating with the alleged shooter who was now trapped inside the parking garage. >> the suspect saturday that we will eventually find the ieds. >> reporter: ieds, improvised explosive devices, a new concern for police. the shooter added that he was not affiliated with any group and that he did this alone. negotiations broke down. gunfire broke out. then dallas police decided to break out a weapon few even knew existed. they sent a robotic device armed with a bomb into the parking lot. >> the suspect is deceased. as a result of the detonating the bomb. >> reporter: with the sniper dead, police turned to their own
losses. in a powerful and poignant moment, officers saluted their fallen comrades outside parkland memorial hospital where president kennedy was pronounced dead more than 50 years ago. in total, 12 police officers had been shot. five were dead. >> it has been a long morning. >> reporter: as sun rose, dallas mayor mike rawlings and police chief david brown held a press conference to discuss the deadliest day for law enforcement since the world trade center attacks in 2001. >> and i want to say first of all, thank you to all the emergency personnel that have worked through the night and their calm determination to make our city safe. >> reporter: the shooter was identified as micah xavier johnson. he had also served his country in afghanistan with the u.s. army and as a member of the army
reserve, records showed. it's hard to explain the unexplainable, but chief brown cited the shooter's own words. >> he said he was upset about the recent police shootings. the suspect stated he wanted 0 kill white people, especially white officers. >> reporter: police secured downtown and swept it for bombs. nothing was found. by late friday, the mayor said johnson was the lone gunman. and governor greg abbott said. >> i have no information about any co-conspirators. >> reporter: ar one of the worst weeks any of us can remember, there was a lot of talk. >> the past 24 hours in dallas has been a venerable tale of two cities. on the one hand it has been the tale of heroism of police officers. at the same time, it's been a tale of cowardice by an asass in. >> there has been a vicious, calculate and despicable attack
on law enforcement. >> reporter: and many are left wondering what actions will this country take to finally stop the violence. i want to now remember some of the too many lives lost this week to violence. all theton sterling was 37 years old whether he evers killed on tuesday. sterling had for years so would cds in the convenience store marking lot where he was killed and family members say he had recently obtained a gun to protect himself from muggers. a joy full and jen ross man. his family and friends held a traditional second line parade thursday in baton rouge to celebrate and honor his life. philando castile was 32 years old. he was remembered this week as a kind gentle man who cared deeply about the children who attended the st. paul, minnesota schoolser with worked as a kuj supervisor. phil as he was known, was engaged to be married. his girlfriend and 4-year-old daughter were in the car when he
was killed. brent this son joined the dallas rapid transit police forces in 2009. he was 42 years old and just married a fellow officer two weeks before he was killed. officer thompson had trained police officers in iraq and afghanistan and been an instructor at a texas police academy before joining d.a.r.t. the d.a.r.t. police chief remembered him as a great officer who served admirably. dallas police officer patrick zamarripa was 32 years old. he had joined the neighbor right after high school and served three towers of duty in iraq as a naval security officer. he was married and had two children, a 2-year-old daughter and i step son. his family remembered him as a dedicated passionate police officer. dallas police officer michael kroel was killed in the line of duty thursday night. officer kroel had previously worked fort wayne county, michigan sheriff's department before moving to dallas to join the force. sergeant michael smith served with the dallas police
department for 28 years. he also served in the army for seven years. officer lorne ahrens had served with the dallas police department since 2002 after spending ten with the los angeles keep the sheriff's department. he was married to a dallas police detective and was remembered by colleagues as a big man with a big heart. stay with us. up next, we'll hear from political leaders reacting to this week of violence in america and the co-founder of black lives matter. [burke] hot dog.seen it.covered it. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪
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in from political leaders following repeated acts much violence this week. many have spoken unity, and understanding even some politicians who may surprise. >> you this has been a tough week. first and foremost for the families who have been killed but also for the entire american family. >> a few perpetrators of evil do
not represent us. they do not control us. the blame lies with the people who committed these vicious acts and no one else. and as the president rightfully said, justice will be done. we also have to let the healing be done, as well. >> we're one people. we're one family. we're one house. we must learn to live together as brothers and sisters. if not, we will parish as fools. >> let's start here. let's take a moment to the pray for all the families and the loved ones suffering today. >> we can begin to truly confront this. confront it by acknowledging the truth that despite decades of progress on many fronts, millions of our fellow americans feel that they are treated differently because of the color of their skin.
>> every american has the right to live in safety and peace.
the deaths of alton sterling in louisiana and fill lan dole castillo in minnesota also make clear how much more work we have to do to make every american feel that their safety is protected. >> episodes like this must not harden our divisions but should unify us as a country. >> it is more dangerous to be black in america. substantially more likely to end up in a situation where the police don't respect you and where you could easily get killed. and i think sometimes for whites, it's difficult to appreciate how the real that is, i mean that's an everyday day danger. >> one of the things that gives me hope this week is actually seeing how the overwhelming majority of americans have reacted with empathy and understanding. >> respect, decency, compassion, humanity, if we lose those fundamental things, what's left?
we need to to take a moment here for reflection, for thought, for prayer, for justice, for action. right now, let's let justice be done and let's also let some healing occur, too. >> i got arrested many times during the '60s, left bloody, unconscious by police officers. but i never hated, and each time i would see a police officer whether on capitol hill, or back in atlanta or some place in texas
or louisiana, wherever, wherever, i said thank you for your service. >> joining me now is a littlia garciaza, co-founder of the black lives matter movement. you heard the montage of political leaders on both sides of the political spectrum. were you surprised with the
exception of some people sort of on the extreme end, were you surprised at how uniformly positive most of the reaction has been after dallas? >> no, i'm not surprised. i think that what i'm excited and happy about is that the far right narrative that black lives matter is somehow a hate or terrorist group is a message that seems to be dwindling away and rightfully so. i think that the majority of people in this country understand what it is that we're up against and what it is that we're fighting for. i think the majority of people in this country understand that we are not anti-police, but we certainly are anti-people being murdered in our communities. and i think that the majority of american people understand that we are at a crossroads. and that that crossroads is really which way are we going to go? are we going to go backwards in the direction of further separation and segregation in
the direction of further challenges in terms of people being able to come together and have the things that they need for their basic human dignity or are we going to move forward together and try and figure out solutions to some of the many challenges that we face as a a society. >> alisha, black lives matter felt it important to really tweet out a very explicit message saying that black lives matter stands for peace, justice and freedom, not for murder. i want to play you what president obama said in warsaw and still having to couch the black lives matter movement in the terms that you're going to hear right now. take a listen. >> americans of all races and all backgrounds are rightly outranged by the inexcusable attacks on police whether it's in dallas or any place else. that includes protesters. it includes family members who
have grave concerns about police conduct. and they have said that this is unacceptable. there's no division there. >> do you worry ever, alicia that, what happened in dallas and events like that will have a chilling effect on people's willingness to protest over the core issue of police involved violence? >> no, i don't worry that it will have some kind of chilling effect. i think that what the incident in dallas has done as encouraged us to look out for each other and to be one together in our fight to make sure that we are able to be achieve a transparent, accountable, and safe mode and method of policing. and until we get tote that point, i think we will continue to see demonstrations and
protests. i don't think that it will have a chilling effect. i do hope, though, that as we move forward, that part of what we're doing is remembering that we have some issues that we need to to solve. and that in our grief and in this time of mourning, that we also remember very clearly that we are, again, at a crossroads where we get to decide which direction this country goes in. >> and while we are in this moment where people in both the republican and democratic parties, people who consider themselves people of the left, people of the right really are coming together for the most part around this idea that there is a core problem with policing that has to do with race, what would black lives matter want to see done if we have this space to get something done, what two or three things would black lives matter adherents bant to see specifically done? >> uh-huh. i think there's a range of things that we would like to see done. the things that i would like to highlight today are that we want an end to the police state.
and what that means is, we don't want our lives to be dominated and inundated by the criminalization that many of our families face every single day. what that has to look like then is transparent and responsible and accountable policing. so the way that we get there are through mechanisms like community control of the police. the other way that we get there is by making sure that our funding formulas are balanced in the city that i'm from, 40% of our city budget goes to policing. meanwhile, we're having agextreme housing crisis. we're having extreme crisis in terms of unemployment and so we do need to right size how much money that we are investing into law enforcement in our communities. and then the final thing that i would just offer here is that i think it's important for us to make sure that we are demille triesing the police meaning we don't want our -- the folks who are supposed to be protecting
and serving us using weapons of mass destruction in our communities. those types you have weapons are not necessary and ultimately, we need to different ways to keep each other safe. >> and i'm wondering, alicia as you do your advocacy, do you hear from individual police officers or people connected to the police department who's themselves want to see some of these changes? >> i do. i hear from police officers who lament about the culture of silence that there is around some of the police violence that we're seeing across the country. i hear police officers saying that they also are really concerned about the degrees of racism that they experience and encounter in their own departments. and i also hear police officers saying that they are concerned, as well about the lack of services and supports for officers and so what that then looks like is that you have officer who are going into communities already traumatized, already under the impression
that they're under attack and so their policing is unnecessarily aggressive. these are things that i think if we come together as people who want to see the similar goal of transforming policing, that we can address right this minute. >> here's hoping that this moment of clarity produces something positive and concrete. alicia garza in oakland, thank you so much for being here. >> thank you for having me. up next we get a historian's perspective on what we've seen this week and what it means for our country. ah, it's my brother. keep going... sara, will you marry... [phone rings again] what do you want, todd???? [crowd cheering] keep it going!!!! if you sit on your phone, you butt-dial people. it's what you do. todd! if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. it's what you do. i know we just met like, two months ago... yes! [crowd cheering] [crowd cheering over phone]
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the carnage this week has made clear to many americans the deep social divisions in our country when 2 comes to race and policing. but it also comes in the midst of a heated presidential campaign and joining me now is nbc news presidential historian likal bes loss. i want to start with as a historian, how it struck you to see the events in dallas unfold near dealey plaza to culminate in taking those fers to parkland hospital, that vigil outside parkland hospital given the fact that the last time dallas was in the national consciousness in such a tragic way was the assassination of john f. kennedy. >> right, john kennedy, 1963. it seems like a lifetime and a half ago. and in a way that probably is the best way to think of all this because i think about history all the time. i think that's a good thing.
i don't recommend that happeneding to civilians but i think particularly a week like this, a terrible week, it's a good moment to think about the history of this country. as you know, joy, the united states was born exactly 200 407b years ago this week, oddly enough. if you look at over all that history, i think one thing that anyone has to be impressed by is the ability of this country after a horrible week like this to heal and unite and improve. sometimes it takes maddeningly long but sometimes after an awful week like this we come to see what lincoln called the better angels of our nature. that's hope that's true. >> you know better than mos that 1963, the death of john f. kennedy that precipitated the election where lyndon johnson had to step forward to the fore, the two of them were still grappling with the country's sort of founding conundrum of how to be a country born in this
legacy of savory. that was still the central question at issue in 1964. how did our politics deal with that fact back then when lyndon johnson was trying to do that and run for president. >> we were lucky enough to have a president is, lyndon johnson who was in that case from the south and particularly sensitive to all the difficulties that would be brought on and also the opportunities by the civil rights act which he signed two days before the fourth of july in 1964. and so you had a healing president. he always used to say his favorite part of the bible was where isaiah said come and let us reason together. so during that year, you had a leader who was a grown-up. sometimes in american history, you've had a horrible week like this and there are leaders who try to exploit that and exacerbate violence for their own political purposes. i think one thing that's been a hopeful sign the last couple of days is that we have not had that and our leaders have
actually been quite inspiring for the most part. >> yeah, and we know there were two things that sort of resonate with me that came out of the two assassinations, two of the three that roiled the country in that period that you did have this big move toward gun control after the kennedy assassination or at least the idea of mailing guns through the mails. but then you also had in 1968 all that was happening in terms of rioting and urban violence and that wound up playing a role in the 1968 election, too. >> it did. george wallace was running for president. he provided to exploit that and say the rioting that's happened is an example of my -- the need for people to realize that i'm right in saying there's a big need for law and order. we're not seeing that here this week. sometimes you have to be grateful for what you're not seeing. but i think one thing if you go through the entire history is that the way we've dealt with the week liking this best is when we take a moment to absorb this and then decide what to do. that was easier at the time of
george washington because if you wanted to argue with george washington, you would either have to get on your horse and go see him, that would take days or write a letter which would sometimes take weeks. the result was that the democracy had a moment to take a breath and do this with some deliberation. one advantage that we've got that they didn't have in those days is that because of our means of communication nowadays, we can have the kind of national conversation about in that was impossible at the beginning. >> and we also, of course, through the magic of cell phones can actually see in realtime some of the things that were even precipitating the riots in the 1960s. can you talk about the nexus between and i like you love history because it is so cyclical between black lives matter now and really its equivalent during the civil rights movement that john lewis and others were involved in. >> he was so eloquent in the clip that you showed. they were saying that the
situation as of then was is not acceptable and where we the demonstrators, he and the others were making all sorts of sacrifices to change the country. the whole rule of this country, you know, if you had to look at one theme that runs throughout is the country sometimes does take a long time but it does change. does adapt, it does reform in whatever way that's going to happen and you have to assume that 2016 is not an exception to that. >> and it has been striking to watch political leaders who have just been at such loggerheads with each other over everything and the debate has really deteriorated in a way distressing to a lot of americans. but something does seem to be different after dallas. you are seeing i guess the grown-ups in a lot of these politicians come forward. do you feel hopeful that this can last or is this a memttory blip before we go back into the madness of the campaign? >> i do think it will last. i can think of a lot of other presidential campaigns when nothing exactly like this has happened but sometimes things
that were violent and threatened to divide the country did happen and you had grown-ups to say, hold on a moment. you know, let's keep this country united and look at this in a larger framework. i think that's what we're seeing and we should all be very grateful for that. >> is there something hopeful even. past presidencies you have seen presidents in moments of tragedy even if they are incredibly divisive figures being able to bring the country together? do you see the possibility of that in the people that are running today? >> i do. that's because it's in the dna of this country. through all of our problems and all of our conflicts and we've been through wars and a civil war, terrible economic crises, social crises, so much feeds that still remain, somehow, there is something in this country that causes people when a moment like this comes to say, this is a moment to unite. but at the same time it, decide what we can doing to make things better. >> well, michael beschloss in horrific circumstances but it is
always a wonderful opportunity to get to talk to you. thank you very much. >> thank you, joy. >> after the break, can the recent tragedies begin to help us reset the relationship between police and communities of color? i called for help as soon as i saw her. i found her wandering miles from home. when the phone rang at 5am, i knew it was about mom. i see how hard it's been on her at work and i want to help. for the 5 million americans living with alzheimer's, and millions more who feel its effects. let's walk together to make an even bigger impact and end alzheimer's for good. find your walk near you at alz.org/walk. and i quit smoking with i'm chantix. i had a lot of doubts going in. i was a smoker. hands down, it was, that's who i was. after one week of chantix, i knew i could quit. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. chantix definitely helped reduce my urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation,
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he's also chief of more than 4,000 officers, the married father is a self-described loner in a very public job. >> i david brown. >> reporter: less than two months after he was sworn in as chief six years ago, he was tested in both a professional and personal way. >> it appears the shooter is going to be david o'neal brown junior. >> reporter: chief brown's only son and his namesake was himself killed after he gunned down two other people, one of them a police officer. >> i remember closing my son's casket in the church. i remember sitting at the burial site and everything else is a blur. >> reporter: the 30-year police veteran las also endured the violent deaths of his brother and his former police partner. while sometimes abrasive, he's also known for his kindness, often posting pictures on social media showing his dedication to the people of dallas. >> we are not going to let a coward who would ambush police
officers change our democracy. >> reporter: and tonight, when his city needs it the most, he's a strong, steady voice of compassion and concern especially for his fellow officers. >> all i know is that this -- this must stop. this die visiveness between our police and our citizens. >> reporter: chief brown has dedicated his whole life to one job. >> but i could tell you i've never been more proud of a police officer and being a part of this great noble profession. >> reporter: a department that has been put to its greatest test with its chief commanding the way. rahema ellis, nabs news. up next, the attorney general calls for unity. and auto coverage, which reduces red tape, which saves money. when they save, you save. that's home and auto insurance for the modern world. esurance, an allstate company. click or call. esurance does insurance a smarter way. they offer a single deductible, which means you don't pay twice when something like this happens,
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justified. but the answer must not be violence. the answer is never violence. i urge you to remember, today and every day that, we are one nation, we are one people, and we stand together. >> attorney general loretta lynch was among the many voices urging americans to come together after the deadly shootings this week. and for more on where we go from here, i'm joined by "washington post" writer and msnbc writer jaunkt capehart, mia wiley, and eugene o'donnell former nypd officer and professor of law and police studies. thank you all for being here. let's talk about this just a little bit. i spoke with alicia garza. one of the things she said that was fascinating me, she talks to police officer who's also say they want this dynamic to change. so how if we all agree on it, we've got bipartisan agreement on it, how do we take steps to get it to change. >> i'm going to defend them because this is absurd to be
demonizing black lives matter which is across racial group of people. the civil rights movement was demonized. dr. king was called a communist. there's nothing new about this. these are kids cross racially who -- and this is encouraging i think, and it's going to also impact on policing, hate is really becoming totally uncool in this country among young people. they're putting the older generation to shame. i don't want to oversimplify it but that's really important to say. the idea cops have some sort of investment in the status quo or a love of yesteryear that's a myth. they get direction. they get clarity, we can move forward. >> i want to play a little bit of kellyn nixon, a young father who brought his adorable little boy to the dallas protests just as an example of the kind of people who were there. there were families there. let's take a listen to him, what he believed that protest was about.
>> what will really took place last night is what's been taking place across america forever and that's hatred. it wasn't black lives matter, it wasn't police. it was pure hatred. and until we resolve our hate issue, then we'll continue to see these things. >> and mia, he had to scramble to protect his son and the hatred he was describing is this horrific mass shooting in which police officers were targeted. >> absolutely. and i think what's so important about this moment is how often people have come together activi activists, police officers, folks from all sectors of the community in all communities to say we actually are our own best hope as james baldwin once said. and so much attention on how we actually look at the kind of transparency and accountability that continued to support eve policing because i think u neen is absolutely right. one of the things we're hearing from new york city police officers, for example, is they want community policing. they like the fact that now they
get to have sector patrols where they get to know the neighborhood where they actually can understand the problems that are underlying some of the crimes that they see, understand better where the problems are and how to have a better relationship with the community in order to solve those problems. i think that's the kind of hope that we have. and the fact that we all understand that police officers need to be able to do their jobs. they're people in black communities actually want effective policing. > jonathan, you've been covering black lives matter for so many years now. it started officially in 2013, but the story of police versus the community and the tensions there goes much earlier than that, obviously. are we in sort of a moment, maybe a bubble when because dallas was so shocking when we have enough agreement that people might actually accept that black lives matter is actually trying to play a role that would help the entire society including the police to do their jobs better? >> i think so. and in a weird way, the fact that this ambush this horrible
thing that happened to the dallas police department is maybe the silver lining in here is that the dallas police department was doing all the right things. i mean, all the innings that the black lives matter movement around the country has been demanding of police departments, dallas is doing it. and you know, we have to expand and see that the president's task force and 21st century policing a lot of the things dallas is doing is what the task force is pushing which is what they're trying to get more police departments around the country to do, community policing, going from being, having the posture of soldiers to going back to having the posture of protecting, actually protecting the community and knowing the community that they're patrolling and that they're serving. and so i agree with eugene. another silver lining is that the black lives matter movement is not just black people. it's all americans coming together. nankfully a lot of these horrific things that have happened have been caught on
video and so now, everyone can see what african-americans have been complaining about, arguing against for generations. now everyone sees it, and once you see it, it is impossible to go back to the status quo. >> to the point today where serena williams on winning her seventh wimbledon, serena williams winning her 22nd grand slam, actually made a statement about this very issue saying i do have nephews and i'm thinking do i have to call them and tell them don't go outside if you get in your car, it might be the last time i see you eugene, that kind of police goes all the way up the economic spectrum. it doesn't matter whether you are a famous african-american or not famous, rich or poor. it's so ubiquitous it's hard to avoid the fact that it's a real problem. >> is there any doubt about this, is there any reasonable person that would doubt this now? we talk about community
policing. just to the put this into real life. staten island, new york, eric garner, a situation in which he ended up being killed. a terrible trauma for the community. i'm absolutely convinced that if we had a community-based police officer in that precinct, we had them in brooklyn whether he i was there, send one cop out there and this is not to ma line the cops the way this thing went down, but face to face interaction with a cop who is known to eric garner addressing had him respectfully, not confrontati confrontationly, i'm convinced that's a situation where it's overwhelmingly likely it would not have ended like it did. because people talk about community policing. let's call it the way it is. what is the actual benefit to it. that's one case where i think it would be beneficial. >> maya you work for the city of new york and know how difficult it is to get concrete changes because you also have a negotiation that's a labor contract negotiation with the police department. and unions that are there to
protect the interests of their members. and so this might be a secondary issue to them if they want really strong police officers bill of rights and things like that, that then make transimore difficult. how do cities navigate that divide? >> it's really important for cities to talk to all stakeholders and create a set of principles fundamental to change. for example, i think the new york city police department has done a great job of framing this as one city, safe and fair. that's it. those are the principles. we are all one. this is about all of us. and we all have to align around safety and fairness as twos core principles. . the rest obviously gets negotiated as you said, but what i want to is we have real successes over the past two years. for example, civilian complaint review board, fewer complaints in a pretty dramatic way from 2014. this is a very positive sign. the second positive sign is the fact that we have actually seen
an increase in disciplinary actions where there have been substantiated cases. that creates more public trust that in the few instances because we should remember, there are 36,000 police officers not that many complaints in terms of the number of police officers, that where they are substantiated that actual action takes place including retraining. >> and at the same time, jonathan, the very real jeopardy that police officers face we saw in stark display in dallas, not only the jeopardy of people who may have a psychological issue who may have some paranoid view of police or some vendetta. we don't know what the motivation was there. but we know in a lot of the cases police are outgunned by some of the citizens that they're trying to police. >> yes, and that gets to the larger conversation about gun control and how the citizens are able to outgun the police. how it's possible that some -- a mad man with a gun or a mad
person with a gun could not only put the community in danger but the very people who are -- who are there to protect the community, put them in danger. there are several conversations that need to be had. there needs to be the racial conversation. there needs to be the societal conversation and just overall hatred and then there's the conversation about how is it possible that people who might have mental problems, who might have racial hatred or hatred in general, how are they able to so easily get the firepower to not only wreak havoc on communities but wreak havoc on the police departments that are there to protect those communities. >> and eugene, how do we get the officers themselves and police departments to the table in this conversation? it sometimes feel like whether we're having the gun control conversation or talking about community policing it's really the community and the citizenry and maybe sometimes not all of the political sides at that table. how do we invite the police community to the table? >> you have to have a real-life
conversation about what they live with and what they live with in urban america is not everywhere but it's complex and you have to have that conversation. otherwise, you lose them. and you have to convince them, have to convince them that the answer to absurd extremist hate dialogue coming outside, you should say keep it out of our agency and if it's inside, to say to people who say crazy things like the president is an islamic terrorist, that's insane. there's a cost for allowing people to say crazy things over and over again. and just nodding. we have to say wait a minute, that's crazy. so no simple solutions. i do think that the cops have to be addressed realistically. >> yeah. >> mental health, jonathan said it and i think it's critically important. you can't understand some of the shootings we've seen particularly dallas without understanding the fact that we have not invested sufficiently in this country in identifying and preventing mental health issues that result in homicides. police officers like teachers are actually dealing with the
frontlines of societal problems. we as a society need to understand and address in order to support more effective communities. that actually will support police officers, that will support teachers. that will superior safety and prevent people from getting to a point where they are getting involved in the criminal justice system because of mental health issues. $850 million is what new york city has put on the table to actually address this because it is a fundamental foundational issue. that is something that this country must address and people of color in particular because disproportionately low income, less likely to get the services they need when they need them. >> i'm wondering if both for the officers who now have to go on in this department in dallas and do their jobs with the psychological torment of what happened in dallas on their minds and at the same time, the families of people like fill lan droll castile who also have to go on. are we missing that entire piece of the conversation both for
police officers and for civilians? >> yes. >> i would say the cops, the issue with the cops is to remind them why most of them took the job and they know if they look hard, that they're respected dean down. if they show any mod come of respect that in my experience i think any cop tells you honestly, inner city america, if you show any modicum of respect, you get respect back. there is a fundamental wellspring potentially for creating a high level of interaction with the cops that's positive. >> and somebody who is going to go on and write about that and write columns about this, jonathan, do you feel in this moment somewhat hopeful about where we're going? >> i am 51% hopeful because i'm always hopeful. like i said before, i am hopeful because the people who were out protesting the shootings that happened, the police involved shootings that happened of civilians, it wasn't just black people who were out protesting. it was america out protesting in
cities across is the country. to me if we as a nation are going to move forward in the racial conversation, it's that coalition that's going to make it happen. >> absolutely. jonathan capehart, maya wylie, eugene o'donnell thanks you for being here. please stay with msnbc for all the latest developments as it happens. chris hayes picks up after the break. my teeth are glowing. they are so white. 6x cleaning*, 6x whiteningá in the certain spots that i get very sensitive... ...i really notice a difference. and at two weeks superior sensitivity relief to sensodyne i actually really like the two steps! step 1 cleans and relieves sensitivity, step 2 whitens. it's the whole package. no one's done this. crest - healthy, beautiful smiles for life.
you got to stick up for yourself, like with the name your price tool. people tell us their budget, not the other way around. so i was at the cool table all along. ♪ ♪ good evening, from dallas. i'm chris hayes and this is msnbc's continuing coverage of the tragedy here in dallas on a friday night. right now, a mass of healing is just about to start at the shrine. we are watching demonstrations against police violence as we've seen in cities around the country this week. this is minnesota. the site of the shooting of philando castile. this is the scene outside the convenience store in baton rouge where alton