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tv   First Look  MSNBC  June 19, 2020 2:00am-3:00am PDT

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here with us. historical record, possibly. on behalf of all of my colleagues at the networks of but i don't know how manyges. nbc news, good night from our temporary field headquarters. >> in the minute or so that we have left, let's look at the supreme court ruling very quickly. how surprised were you this conservative court, we remind our viewers that two of those conservative members of the supreme court, gorsuch and a stunning blow to president kavanaugh were appointed by this trump. the supreme court has blocked his administration from shoving president, he's complaining by down the daca program. the nature of the court, but it is the second surprising were you surprised by the ruling this week from a conservative court. rulings this week not swinging plus, president trump lashes in the conservative direction? out at john bolton just today >> i was a little surprised, especially the lgbt ruling, one after stunning revelations from his new book started to emerge. and lawmakers from both of president trump's appointees signed onto. sides of the aisle are voicing so i was surprised, but, you their frustrations as well jo and social media sites tamp down know, john roberts is -- he's a on posts by the president. guy who is careful about facebook had removed a campaign precedent and we know that. ad facing controversial imagery and he is careful about -- and i think there is something to what and twitter takes down one of was in supreme court justice clarence thomas' decent about
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the latest ruling that this was his posts because of manipulated a very politically fraught time to put out a ruling like this. it could affect the presidential media. hey, there, good morning, everyone. it's friday, june 19th. election, and i think that has i'm alex witt. to be somewhat of a while the supreme court has consideration. but you know what, we have in the next couple of weeks we ruled the president cannot shut down daca, chief roberts was the expect to see an abortion case deciding vote and author of the ruling and we'll see how president trump's appointees opinion where the 5-4 decision find on that. >> buckle up everyone and pay attention to twitter. shawna thomas, thank you so allows daca recipients to remain much. that does it so much for us in the country they call home. on this friday morning i'm alex >> the decision is amazing. whit, "morning joe" starts right i'm so happy. these kids and their families, i feel for them, and i think all now. good morning and welcome to of america does. "morning joe," it is friday, june 19th, along with joe, >> an emotional chuck schumer there, but the roberts opinion willie and me, we have nbc joined by all four liberal contributor shawna thomas, members of the court did not address the constitutionality of cofounder of axios jim vanhigh,
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the daca program. the decision instead was based and alicia menendez. on errors of the program to today is the holiday, rescind it provide nothing juneteenth, which marks the reasoned analysis for doing so. official end of slavery in the robert writes, dhs has the u.s. we'll be talking about the significance of this date and the president's claim that he is flexibility in addressing any the one who made the day, quote, very famous. >> nobody knew about it, reliance interests and could actually. did willie know about this? have considered various accommodations. while the agency was not required to pursue these accommodations, it was required to assess the existence and strength of any reliance interests and weigh them against competing policy concerns. clarence thomas writes today's decision must be recognized for what it is, an effort to avoid a politically controversial but legally correct decision. joining me now danny cevallos. good morning to you. okay. so this decision is certainly a relief for hundreds of thousands
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of dreamers, but how is it not necessarily the end of daca because how was it decided, i guess? explain it to us. >> daca when it was first instituted was not an act of congress. it was not a work of legislature. it was a memorandum by the prior administration essentially saying don't enforce the law. we're going to create this additional program for folks, and they can rely on it and possibly stay in the country. now, everybody on both sides of this argument agrees that the next administration has the power and authority to unmemorandum the original memorandum. however, the law requires if they do so, they have to follow certain procedures. there's no question the trump administration can end daca, but they have do it in the right way. if you look at justice thomas's quote that you have up there, the second sentence was
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factually correct. the long-term decision would be the act of the legislature. when an administration governs by a memorandum like this, it can always be taken away by the next administration. the administrative procedures act, however, just requires they do so in a procedurally correct way by putting down a valid justification. >> okay. so in this argument, the summary that was written by john roberts, the last part of it says it was required to look at the interests and weigh them against leading policies and concerns. its failure to do so was arbitrary and capricious. does that mean they wanted to get rid of it but didn't have justfication for doing so? what does it mean? >> it takes on a whole new meaning during the trump
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administration. yes, it can be done, but it can't look random and unjustified. like you were told in school, they have to show their work. they have to show what the legal justification is. they didn't do that in this case. or the justification they gave was legally flawed, and the administration can't go back and say, well, we really meant this in that original memorandum. they, instead, are going to have to start all over again. again, nobody on either side doubts or disputes that the trump administration could achieve the result it wanted by ending daca. it just didn't do it in the procedurally correct way. so this is really just a short-term victory. the only long-term solution, again, as clarence thomas says s going to be federal legislation. >> okay. danny cevallos, many thanks as always, my friend. meantime the president continued to tear into his former national security adviser john bolton, denouncing the bombshell revelations he made in his forthcoming book.
quote
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trump called the book made up lies, trying to get even, the sick puppy as he is. he called his former cabinet member as a wacko for his peace talks with north korea. kim jong-un went ballistic just like his missiles. his statement set us back badly with north korea even now. i asked him, quote, what the hell were you thinking. he had no answer, just apologized. i should have fired him right then and there. when asked why he hired him in the first place, here was hiring peoplese yesterday. that you believe are wackos and
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liars? >> okay. i guess that was no answer. meantime secretary of state mike pompeo described john bolton who once worked in tandem with him in the trump administration as a, quote, traitor. in statement he writes book but has spread a number of lie, fully spun half truths, and outright false hoods. it is both sand dangerous that john bolton's final public role is that of a traitor who damaged america by violating his sacred trust with its people. [ indiscernible ] >> do what now. >> call john bolton as a witness
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after detective ind. "indiscernible kwkts. >> back then he wasn't called, and to me that's all water under the bridge. it's not going to make a difference that point. >> do you think it was the right decision go not call him as a witness? >> if we had called him as a witness, we might be in court. in the middle of a pandemic and everything going on, we might be fighting the administration right now. you might have to ask the house why they didn't when they had the chance to do so. >> as a remind e there were only two republicans who voted, senator mitt romney and susan collins. joining me now, columnist dabby lippman. john bolton has filed a matter.
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how is this going to play out? you've got plenty of reporters who have already read the book. it has been shipped to the bookstores. basically has the horse left the barn on this one? >> i think this is pretty much of a lost cause for the trump administration. i have a copy of the book in my own apartment. it's too late to stop the book. they've had six months reviewing copies of the books. they have taken stuff out that they thought was classified. and so, really, there's no legal justification for the administration to block this book. we do have a first amendment, which is pretty powerful in this country. >> right. so there's no expectations that secrets that the white house would be opposed to getting out there would be in this book because as you said, the white house has looked at the book, right. >> yeah. and the original officer, ellen
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knight, who deals with classified matters said that all -- you know, everything was fine and then she was only overruled by her superiors who wanted to keep blocking this book. >> okay. let's again remind folks a lot of reporters have looked at this book too. the expert are out there. let's move on and talk about the supreme court, which has halted the trump administration's plans to end daca. surprising setback given the makeup of this court. how is he reacting? >> he's not reacting well, but this also saves him from a political choice he would have need dodd because he would have painted the bad press, and he even was doubting if it was a good policy. this court ruling is very helpful to him because he doesn't have to get rid of the daca recipients. he doesn't have to send them back to their homes where there would be stories about how people working on the
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coronavirus researched at harvard how they can no longer stay in the u.s. so this is much less politically damaging than people think. this saves them from having to deport these kids. many of them are contributed to sight. >> okay. daniel lippman, thanks so much for getting up early this morning. i'll be reading the latest reporting from politico. still ahead, incendiary posts, facebook is cracking down on at least one of his recent campaign ads. plus he's gearing up for his rally in tulsa tomorrow. those stories and a check on your weather when we come right back.
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facebook removed a trump campaign tiezment yesterday to remove a symbol identified by
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nazis. the ad showcased an upside down red triangle which the trump administration claimed was used to invoke antifa. facebook said in a statement, we removed these posts and ads for violating our policy against organized hate. our policy prohibits using a banned hate group symbol to identify political prisoners without the context and condemns or discusses the symbol. before it was removed, it received more than a million impressions. it's not clear whether the trump campaign was even aware of the origins of the symbol. but trump campaign's director tim myrta defended the statement saying it's used in an ad about antifa. pretty straightforward. he also pointed out it was not a hate symbol by the anti-deaf
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nation league. twitter is cracking down by checking president trump for manipulated media. this marks the fourth time the social media site has added a label to one of the president's tweets. last night the president tweeted a video of a fake cnn report with the headlines terrified toddler runs from racist baby and racist baby probably a trump voter. the clip shows a young white boy chasing black boy before showing, quote, what actually happened in the viral video last year, this precious video of two toddlers running toward each other ending in a hug. it ends with words on the screen, american's not the problem, face news is. if you see something, say something. they labeled the media manipulated media to give people more context. trump's rally in tulsa tomorrow will be his first since the beginning of the coronavirus outbreak. in "the wall street journal," trump said some attendees might
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catch the virus, but, quote, it's a very small percentage. when asked if he would be fine with his daughter ivanka trump, and senior adviser, sitting in the audience. he responded, quote, first of all, she's young. elderly are more likely to become ill or die from the disease. and the box emphasized the proper protocols. in that statement the venue wrote in part, quote, given the health department's recent rohrss of increases in coronavirus cases and oklahoma's encouragement for event organizers to follow cdc guidelines, we have requested that the trump campaign as the event organizer provide bok center with a written plan detailing the steps the event will institute for health and safety. the trump campaign issued a response writing in part, quote,
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we received a letter from arena management and we're reviewing it. we take safety seriously, which is why we're doing temperature checks for everyone attending, and providing masks and han sanitizer. still ahead, president trump says he expects the coronavirus to just fade way. but one state in the south has hit a new record-high with the cases. we're back with that in a moment. this is an athlete, twenty reps deep,
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to over 3,000. florida has raised over 85,000 cases. this comes as the states continue to ramp up testing and work to reopen their economies. despite a surge in covid-19 cases in parts of the country, the president claims the u.s. is nearing the end of the pandemic. that was one takeaway from one "wall street journal" interview where he also said he would not make a dramatic increase in testing despite second-wave fears. in fact, he explicitly told the journal he thinks testing is, quote, overrated and emphasized he created the greatest testing machine in history. during the interview trump also allowed for the possibility that some americans wore facial coverings not as a preventive measure but as a way to signal disapproval of him. for a first look at your forecast now, let's go to meteorologist bill karins, and not a moment too soon. i was rendered speechless in the last part about him.
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your turn. >> there's been a lot of speechless, alex n 2020. it's great to see you, by the way. >> you too. >> let's get to this forecast as we head into the father's day weekend. we have a lot of active weather in the middle of the country iechlts typical summertime stuff. a lot of overnight stuff in the central plains weerchl had as much as 7 inches in lincoln, nebraska. we're continuing watch in w wichita and down along the border. we're not going to have a lot of severe weather, but we will see some. sweetwater midland, we could see a little, maybe an isolated tornado. today's forecast, nice in the northeast. boston up to 88 degrees. by the way, northern maine today, caribou, maine, is forecasting 96 degrees. if that happens, it would match their all-time record-high temperatures.
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snushl heat in northern new england. we're cooler in the rockies some of let's get to the weekend forecast. let's get you into your father's day weekend. pop-up storms on saturday, mid-atlantic region. we'll see hit-and-miss storms. we do have to watch out for a few strong storms, des moines, the quad cities, madison, back to green bay, and late saturday, some of those storms could be trying to arrive toward chicago. and for father's day, i don't think anyone's plan will get rained out, but we will see scattered storms in the mid south. we'll see hit and miss storms in pennsylvania, the areas of mid-atlantic, washington, d.c., maybe around new york city. sunny and hot for much of the areas of the west. i haven't done an event forecast. it seems like in forever, but if you like horse racing and you're into the triple crown, it's a liksed mixed up. the belmont will be running saturday.
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coverage begins on nbc at 3:45 post time. slowly, the pga tour is playing golf and slowly things are starting to happen. >> yeah, they sure are. i hope it's sunny on father's day because you, my friend, are a world-class dad, bill. thank you so much. >> thank you. let's talk about what the supreme court's decision on daca means for hundreds of thousands in the united states thachlts's next. plus, at least one of joe biden's picks for vice president is now out of the running. we're back in a moment. s twenty-four seven. so where you go, the pro goes. go with align. the pros in digestive health. and if stress worsens your digestive issues, try new align digestive de-stress. it combines align's probiotic with ashwagandha to help soothe occasional digestive upsets, plus stress that can make them worse. and try align gummies with probiotics
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welcome back, everyone. i'm alex witt. we begin this half hour with a stunning blow to president trump's immigration agenda. the supreme court has blocked his administration from shutting down the program that has shielded hundreds of thousands of young people brought to the u.s. as children from deportation. nbc news justice correspondent pete williams has the details. >> reporter: it's the second surprising ruling this week from a conservative supreme court, a big blow to president trump, and a huge victory for those in the daca program. >> it was a huge relief to shut down all of this confusion and worry honestly. >> you can come out of the shadows. >> reporter: president obama launched daca deferred action for child arrivals. since then, 800,000 young people known as dreamers brought to the u.s. by their undocumented parents have been allowed to
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stay, go to school, and get jobs. president trump could have shut it down the same way, by executive order. instead his justice department declared it illegal and the homeland security ordered it ended. by a vote of 5-4 with chief justice job roberts joining the courts for liberals, he said it was too much of a shortcut. roberts wrote the opinion saying the government failed to properly evaluate how ending daca would affect those who relied on it to stay here and get jobs. in a dissent, justice clarence roberts called it a controversial but legally correct decision. among the strongest supporters of daca, the medical community, relying on 27,000 people in the program to help fight covid-19 like javier castro, a nurse in houston. >> it just doesn't seem logical
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or fair to take us out of circulation when we've been providing so much for this country since daca was implemented. >> our thanks to nbc's pete williams for that report jiening me now, president of community change action. lorella prayly. good morning to you, lorella. thanks for joining me. curious to get your reaction to the president and his reaction to the supreme court ruling, calling this horrible and politically charged decision. >> well no, surprise there. we know that president trump launch hisd campaign waging war on immigrants and the latino americans in this country. he's continued to do that since then and we're likely to see that in the lead-up to november. but what's clear is in a 5-4 ruling yesterday the supreme court affirmed that dreamers are
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here to stay. while we prepare for the worst, we hang on to hope and hard work, grounded for the people what a wonderful testament to the people in power we saw yesterday. >> absolutely. lorella, when you said the dreamers are here to stay, is that in the long term? we have heard this has shut down the confusion, but has it? is it a done deal or might it be revisited? >> it's not a done deal i. is a band-aid program. ice a stop measure. it does not provide permanent protections for undocumented people in this country. it's simply an ability to give people an ability for a little more certainty. it's by no means a done deal. we have to go back to congress. they have to deliver a permanent
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path to citizenship and we've got to win in november. it's absolutely clear to me that yesterday donald trump and stephen miller and others in the white house went back to the drawing board and started to think about ways to take this back to the courts. so it's really a stopgap measure. i was once an undocumented person in this country. my sister is a daca recipient. i know she wakes up with a little more certainty, gets back up to fight, and the resiliency we've seen with those who have led this fight and continue do so is undeniable and undoubtable. so bring it on, trump. we're going to bring it to the polls. we're going to bring it to the polls. >> you say congress has to take care of it. what are your plans via your group? what are you going to say to congress? what's your first action?
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>> congress -- well, the democratic house has already passed the bill. it's passed the american promise, the american dream and promise act, and it's waiting for the senate to take up the bill. here's what's important, that republicans yesterday started saying they should, of course, solve this in the congress, but it would be conditions on additional resources for enforcement both for interior and for the border, and what i've known to be true for a long time is that dreamers do not allow themselves to be bargaining chip, that if republicans really wanted to get this done, there's a bill waiting for them, it is sitting for mitch mcconnell to take it up for a vote, and it needs no additional conditioning in order to get it through. so it's truly a matter of political will, not trying to use young people as pawns in a negotiation. >> i know you'll continue to speak up on this. loreal la praeli, thank you for talking with us this morning.
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nosenator amy klobuchar announced last night she's removing herself to be a possible running mate for joe biden. >> this is a historic moment. i truly believe when i told the vice president last night when i called him, this is a moment to put a woman of color on that ticket. there are so many incredibly qualified women, but if you want to heal this nation right now, my party, yes, but our nation, this is a helluva way to do it. >> biden responded to klobuchar's comments, tweets, amy frrks the moment you announced you were running for president in a snowstorm, it wasn't hard to see you have the grit and determination to do anything you set your mind to. you know how to get things done. with your help, we're going to beat donald trump. they're requesting an extra
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debate be added to the schedule before election day. t"the new york times" reported yesterday they tried to negotiate for one more than is typically held. trump's team also pushed for the debates to be moved up before the republican and democratic convictientions starting as ears labor day. brad parscale told the paper, quote, we want fair debates, sooner, and a bigger schedule, and we don't want them up against football games as many americans need to see the stark differences and accomplishments between donald trump and the record and sleepiness of joe biden. in response, they said, we're not going to ride the roller coaster of the ever-changing trump campaign position on debates, nor are we going to be distracted by his demands. law enforcement officials have been kept busy due to an
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uptick in illegal drug tivgtact. we're going to get a look at the first report from overseas. your first look at "morning joe." we're back in a moment. facing leaks takes strength. so here's to the strong, who trust in our performance and comfortable, long-lasting protection. because your strength is supported by ours. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you. did you know prilosec otc can stobefore it begins?urnth is supported by ours. heartburn happens when stomach acid refluxes into the esophagus.
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...with key nutrients to help support... joints, muscles, and bones. try boost mobility, with added collagen. nbc news is reporting a massive uptick in cocaine trafficking. officials have recorded several huge cocaine seizures at major ports and docks around the world in recent months. in antwerp, belgium, they say they've receive 22 tons from us so far this year. joining me, our correspondent will em marx. good morning to you. tell us why there's an increase in cocaine trafficking. >> well, alex, you mentioned 22 tons so far this year. that's 20% higher in the same
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period last year. it was a record amount of cocaine seized here in antwerp where you have 10 million or so of these containers behind me arriving through the port every year. it seems to me there's a huge uptick of the smuggling of coke inside those containers. one person i spoke to, i asked him why they were trying to increase the road. take a listen to his answer. >> some of the criminal organizations had seen what was coming and they wanted to make sure the goods were still reaching the other continents. on the other hand, we also need to declare that some of the officers working in the source ports, in fact, also have been shifted toward other tasks, which were more related to covid-19, which clearly gave a bit of a security gap at some of the ports because you have less
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law enforcement doing the profiling and doing those inspections. >> reporter: and, alex, you can probably hear some of the trucks around me here. we have thousands passing through the ports and terminals every day, dozens being scanned, though, for the illicit contraband, things like cocaine. a lot of things have turned up positive in the last few months. not just belgium. you have dea and the department of homeland security working closely with their counterparts to try to detect and then seize these cargoes. >> but to the point there, that sound bite from the man you interviewed, clearly another disastrous effect of the coronavirus pandemic. will em marx, thank you so much from antwerp. let's get a check on your weather with meteorologist bill karins. i think it's going to say summer pretty clearly across the country this saturday, right? >> father's day is always like that, hot, dodging thunderstorms, a little
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different than typical mother's day when it's a little cooler and more springlike. this time again, we're going to dive into the numbers and curves and give you your forecast for the upcoming weekend. yesterday we were right around the $120,000 number. the leading numbers were california, then north carolina, which was the second for the first time. illinois, new york, and florida. and it was 747, which is pretty close to our seven-day moving average. as far as moving cases yesterday, we still had a little uptick again, 27,000, almost 28,000. the leading states that were over 1,000. and, of course, california was up there over 3,000. same with texas and florida. arizona and north carolina. so that's kind of the overall big numbers burke let's show you the seven-day averages. this tells a completely different story. we're right now, if you see with the thursday's mark there, the seven-day average is the highest it's been in the last four weeks. it's actually going up. we peaked at 32,000. yesterday we ended up just about
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25,000. so not even that far off of that crazy peak when we had new york state reporting like 8,000 cases a day. and then if you want to come pa pair th to a comparison, look at the fatalities since late march. it's down to 665 fatalities per day. if you want to say it's spreading by cases, it is, but we're still watching the fatalities going down. there's a lag. we'll see with the new case surge if that begins to change and if the fatalities go back up, but it will be interesting. let's dive back into your weekend forecast. we're watching record highs in new england, especially northern new england. ite e going to be a hot day in chicago, 29. i know the atlantic regions had a break. that will be ending as we head throughout the weekend. even portions of vermont will be 90. 91 in cincinnati. look at what happens next week.
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it's over for you in d.c. you've had a nice early summer season to this point. 92 on monday, 94 on tuesday. and mid-90s in areas of the mid-atlantic too. alex, it was in the 50s and 60s this week in areas of the mid-atlantic. it was so summer-like. they're back to their swampy lake weather. they're used to it. >> i'm not. there goes your hair. thank you, bill karins. still ahead, another 1.5 million workers filed for unemployment insurance last week. we'll take look at how the new numbers mayim pal s may impact this week. we're back in a moment. and make no payments for up to 90 days on all 2020 lexus models. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.
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the jobless claims report was worse than expected as another 1.5 million americans filed for unemployment last week, bringing now the total for 13 weeks to 46 million. cnbc's julianna tatelbaum is
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live for us from london. good morning from across the pond. what can you tell us about the figures from the department of labor? >> they were worse than expected. 1.5 million americans have filed for unemployment in the last week. th economic damage caused by the pandemic is continuing. it was the 13th week in a row that the figures have held above 1 million. they have been on a declining trend, though, so a little bit of encouragement on that front. but still, very staggering numbers. and the claims remain more than double the pre-pandemic record set in 1982. in terms of the unemployment rate, most analysts expect the u.s. unemployment rate to be above 9% at the end of the year. one other development i want to highlight for you is what we've been seeing in mortgage rates. i have plunged to record lows. the average rate on a 30-year loan has declined to 3.31%. that's the lowest since freddie
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mac has been tracking the data. the 15-year has eased to 2.85%. a word from freddie mac's chief economist, the housing has shown strength and resilience, but it may be difficult to sustain because of the to sustain because of the number of homes available for sale. >> we heard about sin theatres preparing to reopen and here amc also preparing to reopen. when will folks get back in front of the big screen? >> amc is looking to reopen most theatres by july 15th. 450 more will open up july 24th. they're including safety measures, health protocol for employees. they're going to encourage guests to wear masks. they'll sanitize between
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showin showings. >> i'm thinking you need prepackaged popcorn or something in this new world order. julianna tatelbaum thank you. coming up janet napoll a know, who helped create the daca program joins joe and mika to weigh in on the supreme court's ruling. - [narrator] the shark vacmop. it combines powerful vacuum suction and spray mopping.
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we have been talking this morning about the supreme court ruling yesterday that the trump administration may not immediately proceed with its plan to end a program protecting about 700,000 young immigrants known as dreamers from deportation. the response from the white house was swift donald trump wrote, these horrible and politically charged decisions coming out of supreme court are shot beggun blasts into the fac people that are proud to call themselves republicans or
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conservatives. he followed with do you get the impression the supreme court doesn't like me. the daca was the second blow to the administration in one week. the president is now making the court an issue in the 2020 campaign saying the decisions this week means the court needs new justices. he tweeted he would release his list of potential nominees by september 1st. and john bolton has filed a motion to dismiss the department of justice's effort to block his memoir of his time in the white house. the justice departme-- he asked be thrown out regarding it's a regrettable retext designed to cover up what is, in fact, a determined political effort to suppress ambassador bolton's
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speech. the move comes after the trump administration filed a lawsuit asking for a restraining order to block bolton's book "the room where it happened". the white house argued that it contains classified information. let's bring in shawna cothomas. when the claims are made by the white house that there's classified information in the book, how is that so? didn't they get a copy six months ago and have to review it all? >> there's a process in the national security council to figure this out, and from what i have read, john bolton has said he went through that process and took some things out. there's even, i think, a quote in the book that i believe the "new york times" highlighted just about how something he wants to tell you that president trump said but that he can't because that had been redacted.
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so there's clearly a process that went on. but the white house hadn't given over their final approval. i know john bolton has said he got what he needed from the national security council to publish this book, but it was unclear in public if the white house had actually approved. i think their justice department filing is a way of saying we don't approve this. i think it's worth noting, say what you want about john bolton, he understands government, he understands washington d.c., he understands the process of these things. he's written books before about government. so he is actually probably one of those people who would be very, very careful about classified material. he probably thinks he's on strong ground. i haven't read the filing from bolton's lawyers, but i got to think he thinks it's fine to go ahead and put this book out on tuesday. now, it may -- he may run into issues with trying to reap the
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benefits of the book especially as they go through this court proceeding. but the truth is, i think you said in your intro that 200,000 books had been shipped already, right? >> yeah. the horse has left the barn. it's out there. >> at least 1,000 of those went to d.c. journalists based on all the articles out there. so there's no coming back from this. but the question really is, doe
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