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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  February 12, 2021 3:00am-6:00am PST

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everything that republicans were willing to essentially at least look past, they have to give a final answer this weekend. are they going to choose a different kind of america or stick with what former president trump has left us with. thank you so much for getting up "way too early" with us on this friday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. >> he has done it before. he will do it again. what are the odds if left in office that he will continue trying to cheat. i will tell you 100%. not 5%, not 10% or even 50%, but 100%. if you have found him guilty and you do not remove him from office, he will continue trying to cheat in the election until he succeeds. then what shall you say?
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>> president trump declared his conduct totally appropriate. so he gets back into office and it happens again, we will have no one to blame but ourselves. >> the lead impeachment managers in both trials of donald trump warning against the same thing. along with joe, willie and me, we have staff writer for the atlantic magazine, anne applebaum. professor of international politics at fletcher school of law and tufts universities, and professor in law at georgetown and msnbc legal analyst, paul butler is with us. so house democrats rested their case against donald trump yesterday with the lead impeachment manager urging senators to exercise, quote, common sense and warning of what could happen if trump is not
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convicted. >> if we don't draw the line here, then what's next? what makes you think the law making and violent mobs is over? if we let him get away with it, and then it comes to your state capitol or comes back here again, what are we going to say? >> you know, i'm not afraid of donald trump running again in four years. i'm afraid he's going to run again and lose. because he can do this again. >> when you or i make a mistake and something very bad happens, we would show remorse. we would accept responsibility. president trump didn't do any of that. he was asked by a reporter, quote, what is your role in what happened at the capitol? what is your personal responsibility? and this was his answer. >> -- my speech and my words and my final paragraph, my final sentence. and everybody to the t thought it was totally appropriate.
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>> on january 12th, president trump had seen the violent attack on the capitol. he knew the people that died. and his message to all of us was, that his conduct was totally appropriate. i'm a former prosecutor. and we're trained to recognize lack of remorse. but it doesn't take a prosecutor to understand that president trump was not showing remorse. he was showing defiance. he was telling us that he would do this again. that he could do this again. >> you know, there were times, willie, that i would walk a little bit of the room. the tv was on. impeachment arguments were being made. and i just shrugged my shoulders. are we really pretending that a case has to be made? because everybody that was watching yesterday, every one of these senators, they all know the basics. they know that that mob came to
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washington, d.c. because of one person, because of donald trump. >> they had been there the whole time. >> he had called them to washington, d.c. they also -- we also know, and everybody that's in the senate understands that his intention all along was to disrupt the proceedings. that's why we learned this week there was a permit for his speech, and he changed it to a speech and then a march for a mob up to the capitol. then we understand all the riots, while the insurrection, while the cop killing was going on, he was watching with glee as the trump terrorists were brutalizing police with american flags and breaking through windows and threatening the lives of mike pence and other members that were inside that building. we learned also that he talked to tommy tuberville who said mike pence has just been taken
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out. so he said i can't talk to you, mr. president, because mike pence and everybody is in danger. ten minutes after that he tweets an attack against mike pence to put him more in danger, to put his life more in danger, to put his wife's life more in danger, to put his family's life more in danger while they were chanting, hang mike pence. and of course we understand what happened after. that the president has shown time and again utter remorseless for all that has happened here. so why are we having this trial? we're having this trial because some republicans actually care more about their political careers than they do this republic of ours. that's why. >> no, that's exactly right. and the evidence was overwhelming. the presentation was comprehensive. but we knew a lot of this beforehand. it was damning beforehand.
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now, as you just laid out, we have all this new information that bowl sisters the case. if you did a blind test and said this is president x, if you were a united states senator and you heard all of this evidence, is there any doubt that the vote would be unanimous to convict. if this were barack obama god forbid, bill clinton, if hillary clinton had become president, don't you think it would be unanimous just based on the evidence. instead you have republicans coming out again yesterday reiterating they are going to vote to acquit. this is a waste of time. the videos are offensive. they are showing the videos too many times. it is getting gratuitous. complaints about the presentation being made. you had three republican senators, mike lee, ted cruz, lindsey graham, meeting with defense counsel last night. they said they were talking about process about how the next day would work. meeting with president trump's
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attorneys. today we will see them present for just two or three hours, they say, present their defense, move to senators' questions and get a vote to get this over with they hope by saturday or sunday. jamie raskin concluded the case yesterday by posing the questions the managers would have asked former president trump had he agreed to sit and testify. >> we would pose these preliminary questions to his lawyers, which i think are on everyone's minds right now and which we would have asked mr. trump himself if he come to chose to testify about his actions and inactions when we invited him last week. one, why did president trump not tell his supporters to stop the attack on the capitol as soon as he learned of it? why did president trump do nothing to stop the attack for at least two hours after the attack began?
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as our constitutional commander in chief, why did he do nothing to send help to our overwhelmed and besieged law enforcement officers for at least two hours on january 16th after the attack began? on january 6th, why did president trump not at any point that day condemn the violent insurrection and the insurrectionists? and i'll add a legal question that i hope his distinguished counsel will address. if a president did invite a violent insurrection against our deposit, of course as we allege and think we have proven in this case. but in general if a president incited an insurrection, would that be a high crime and misdemeanor? can we all agree at least on that. . >> anne applebaum, they know
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they have the republicans in the bag, they have the votes to acquit donald trump and they don't have to make much of a case. but, as i said, can you imagine what ted cruz would have said, done, and voted on if this were barack obama having done 1/10th what we have seen the last few days. . >> no. technically speaking, there is no case. that's why the trump legal team has had so much different presenting one. i think what you have to understand here is republicans in the senate, like republicans in other parts of the party, not the whole party. you have to imagine they have been captured by an alternative ideology or alternative way of seeing the world. they are no longer part of the constitutional agreement of the united states. they no longer are playing by the same rules. they no longer are interested in rule of law. they have convinced themselves for a variety of reasons, partly
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self-interest, partly pressure from the their electorate that they believe the democrats are so evil, marxist, insane they have no choice they have to convince themselves they are outside the law and president trump is outside the law. they are now following a different path. the attack on the capitol wasn't republicans attacking democrats. it was a mob attacking our political system. and trump was urging that on. that's what they are had he now in sympathy with. >> so, anne, it reminds me, again, just looking at not the democratic and the republican party but even looking at a divide inside the republican party. watching a lot of republicans leave the republican party. richard haass announcing yesterday he was doing it. hundreds of thousands are doing it across the country. it remind me so much of what you
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wrote about in "twilight of democracy" about friends that you knew in poland and the split. not the split between the left and the right. the split between the right and the center right. and a lot of it had to do with the conspiracy theory of b a crash. as you explained -- an airplane crash. and as you explained the conspiracy theories changed every day, and it didn't matter that the facts constantly changed and constantly contradicted themselves. they became identified with this. the same thing appears to be happening here in the united states where these republicans, they really don't care what the facts are. they don't care about the cop killers. they don't care how many died. they're going to follow donald trump. and those conspiracy theories and those facts no matter what. >> you have to understand
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conspiracy theories as a kind of alternative reality. they now live in an aldered reality, some consciously, some unconsciously, in which donald trump did win and in which the election was stolen. or they have agreed to go along with it for a variety of reasons, personal and political. but you're right, this kind of division ten reality and alternative reality that splits political parties, it happened on the left in the past. it is happening on the right now. it is happening in more than one country. it's a damaging pattern. one of the things that was very striking in the last week, the sight of liz cheney, daughter of a republican vice president who is herself no liberal going on fox news and saying donald trump lost the election. joe biden won the election.
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and that statement being so shocking she was actually denounced by laura ingraham and others just for saying what was true. the party has divided over the question of what's real and what's not real. part of the party is headed in this alternative direction. they believe in an alternate ideology and live in an altered reality. >> castro talked about the implications of the big lie and the attack the capitol had on the country's standing in the world. >> the world watched president trump tell his big lie. the world watched his supporters come to washington at his invitation. and the world watched as he told his supporters to march here to the capitol. and president trump, our commander in chief at the time, failed to take any action to
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defend us. as he utterly failed in his duty to preserve, protect, and defend. and now the world is watching us wondering whether our constitutional republic is going to respond the way it should. and the way it's supposed to. >> think of our diplomats and negotiators as they sit around a table discuss trade and human rights. to fail to convict a president of the united states who incited a deadly insurrection, who acted in concert with a violent mob, who interfered with the certification of the electoral college votes, who abdicated his duty as commander in chief would be to forfeit the power of our example as a north star on freedom, democracy, human
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rights, and most of all, on the rule of law. >> so dan dresner, i want to ask you about that. this is an issue mika and i have debated for some time, and she may want to follow-up with this. but this idea that because of what's going on here america's position in the world will be forever damaged. i look at china's problems, president xi's problems. i look at vladimir putin's problems. i'd rather have our problems especially with the administration we have now, the president we have now, the secretary of state now that we have. what do you think right now in early february 2021 -- let me get the year right. what do you think our standing is in the world as it pertains to donald trump?
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and i'll ask the question we asked while he was in. how much lasting damage will be done because of what people have seen this week? >> i think america's standing has recovered somewhat since donald trump left office. there's no denying that. if you take a look at polling, it would be safe to say a lot of the rest of the world feels a palpable sense of relief that donald trump is no longer the president. they understand where joe biden is coming from. they recognize joe biden's foreign policies as policies that are traditionally american. so in that sense you can argue that america's standing has recovered somewhat. and i think the tpurpbgt along we go into a biden administration and the degree to which trump reseeds from view, the damage might be perhaps less than feared. that said, the problem with january the 6th, the problem
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with republican senatorsen masse, despite the evidence that is literally in front of their face, they are going to vote to acquit, they can no longer take u.s. democracy for granted in a way they were able to do so for decades, indeed in some cases, centuries. the fear is not what the u.s. government will do now. joe biden is the president. you know, for the next four years, you will see what looks like a conventional foreign policy. the fear is, is this the last you see of this kind of illiberal pop last authoritarian leader in charge of a major political party. and the fact that one of the two major political parties in this country refuses to repudiate these sorts of actions, even when members do repudiate it or
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repudiated themselves by state parties, national leaders. that is i think going to give the rest of the world more pause. it weakens one of the most important elements of diplomacy, which is our ability to credibly commit. if joe biden signs an agreement, and even for that matter he gets congress to ratify it, will the next republican president commit to it. so this is -- the problem is not just trump. the problem is what is the republican party stand for from here on in. and is what they stand for consistent with what we consider longstanding american values. >> they will make a big statement with the vote coming up this weekend. paul butler, the job of impeachment managers is not just to remind us and the jury how terrible that day was, but that president trump incited the action we see in all the videos. the congresswoman of colorado
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showed many rioters who stormed the capitol said they were following the orders of president trump. >> there are statements before, during and after that made clear the attack was done for donald trump, at his instructions, and to fulfill his wishes. donald trump had sent them there. they truly believed that the whole intrusion was at the president's orders. as one man explained on a live stream he taped from inside the capitol, quote, our president wants us here. we wait and take orders from our president. >> does he not realize president trump called us to siege the place? >> let's call trump. yes. dude, dude, let's tell trump what's up. >> just say we love you, bo.
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no. he will be happy. what do you mean? we fight for trump. >> are the leader of the oathkeepers militia group was waiting for trump's orders about how to handle the vote in the days that followed the election. the "new york times" reports one group texted, poet us has the right to activate units too. if trump asks me to come, i will. part of the argument we will hear from the defense team is that president trump didn't innocent to incite with his speech, he didn't intend to incite those couple of months and it's out of control how the people responded to what he said. what do you make of that argument? >> overcome by the incredibly powerful case that the democrats are putting on. the first day of the trial they focused on the insurrection, the violence, the assaults on police officers, the rush to keep our lawmakers out of harm's way. yesterday was all about donald
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trump. saying donald trump owns that. he said march. they marched. he said fought. they fought. they are trying to make three points. first, trump incited the mob. second, that was his intent. and third, that even as an ex-president he remains a clear and present danger, which is why he must be convicted and then barred from holding federal office ever again. so all the videos, all of these dramatic statements are designed to move the republicans to try to get the 17 votes they need which, along with the 50 democratic senators will result in trump's conviction. . >> all right. everybody stand by. we want to dig deeper into this conversation. still ahead on "morning joe", prosecutors in georgia are now
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investigating donald trump's bid to overturn the election. plus, one of the jurors in the trial, dick durbin and the recently sworn in secretary of homeland security will join us. you're watching "morning joe". we'll be right back. orning joe". we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ be right back. with moderate to severe crohn's disease, i was there, just not always where i needed to be. is she alright? i hope so. so i talked to my doctor about humira. i learned humira is for people who still have symptoms of crohn's disease after trying other medications. the majority of people on humira saw significant symptom relief in as little as 4 weeks. and many achieved remission that can last. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections, including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood,
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these people matter. these people risk their lives for us. so i ask you to respectfully consider them, the police officers, the staff of this building, when you cast your vote. these people are in deep pain because they showed up here to serve, to serve the american people, to seven their government, to serve all of us. and i ask each of you when you cast your vote to remember them and honor them and act in
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service of them as they deserve. >> those officers serve us faithfully and dutifully and they follow their oaths. they deserve a president who upholds his, who would not risk their lives and safety to retain power. a president who would reserve, protect and defend them. >> wow. the impeachment manager is making that plea to the senators to consider what happened to police officers during the attack when they decided on whether to convict. to that point, the "new york times" writes the capitol assault resulted in one of the worst days of injuries for law enforcement in the united states since the september 11th, 2001, terrorist attacks. at least 138 officers, 73 from the capitol police and 65 from the metropolitan police department in washington, were
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injured, the departments have said. they ranged from bruises and lacerations to more serious damage such as concussions, rib fractures, burns, and even a mild heart attack. >> you know, willie, i've been saying for four, four and a half, five years that these people who call themselves are conservatives are raging hypocrites. we can extend that to the liars who say they supported the cops, they support the blue, that blue lives matter. the blue lives matter movement hasn't embraced officer eugene goodman, a guy that saved the lives of senators. it's amazing that right wing extremists who have been lying the past year to try to attack black lives matter because they love police officers. suddenly have grown silent. where are the voices, the
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screeching far right voices? why are they not praising the police officers and condemning the rioters? it's fascinating to me that blue lives matter. not to them. not if trump terrorists are actually killing them. because they're not attacking these cop killers. they're focusing on nancy pelosi. it's her fault? or somebody else? they have seen police officers take the worst battering since 9 /11 and they are on mute. stack that on big government republicanism, sucking up to vladimir putin, turning their back on western democracy, turning their back on nato. just add that to the list of how all of these right wing wingists
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are not conservative. they are part of a political cult. >> can you think of a here error bigger than officer goodman. we have seen him perhaps saving the life of senator mitt romney. he waved him down and around him around. officer goodman, by the way, we will honored with the congressional gold medal, which he richly deserves. he and self other officers will receive the highest award for their bravery january 6th. it is, as you listen to the arguments and the evidence, again, it's almost become a cliche. it is so much worse than we knew. 138 officers injured. 138 officers. we knew officer sicknick had
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been murdered. we know two officers later died by suicide because of in part the impact of what happened that day. the beatings and the trauma and the torture that police officers, capitol hill police officers, d.c. officers endured, the one squeezed into a door with blood coming out of his mouth. but it was so much worse than even that as the house manager's argument has revealed in the last couple days. >> so, anne, help us out with the unique perspective that you have, studying the split of conservative movements. what do we say as a conservative that doesn't think a $2 trillion deal is a good idea. doesn't think jamming a $15
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federal minimum wage bill inside that bill all at the same time is a good idea. what do conservatives do? where do conservatives go? people who have been center right in poland and 00 gather, what have they done? >> the first thing real conservatives need to do is try to take back their own party. and there are a few trying to do it. i mentioned liz cheney already. ben sasse, one or two others. despite whatever you think they have done in the last few years, whether they didn't behave sufficiently well in the trump administration, they are now
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trying to take the party, civilizing -- that is not the right word. putting on a path where it's arguing about ideas, not identity. arguing about a set of principles. and not about, you know, who we are as opposed to who the democrats are. that's the most important thing you can do. there will be some people who feel they can't do that. who will leave and join the democratic party. but making sure one of our most important political institutions, which is the republican party, doesn't go off in an extreme right direction and doesn't become dominated by anti-constitutional, anti-systemic mobs is really the most important thing you can do. >> paul butler, what was the most compelling part of the case laid out by the impeachment managers against donald trump?
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>> that donald trump sicked an angry mob on congress to stop them from certifying an election that he knew he lost. and all the videos, everything reinforces that central point. mika, i'm encouraging my law students to watch this week. because it's historic. but also to learn how to try a case. we are seeing amazing prosecutors and constitutional lawyers at work. great litigators never give up. so i guarantee you, jamie raskin thinks there's a way that i can get 17 republicans to open their minds. what do i do? when we were talking about officer goodman earlier, one way is to appeal to the values of
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those republican senators. their purported conservative values with the focus on officers who were victims is designed to embroil the gop members who say they are champions of law and order. one police officer died. there ought to be consequences. and then the images of the capitol not in ruins but badly damaged. that's to appeal to their sense of patriotism. the capitol suffered the greatest attack against the war of 1812. there must be consequences is the message that the democratic prosecutors are driving home. >> so, dan dresner, i had asked anne what we do in this country regarding the conservatives. what's your recommendation for the biden administration globally, how things have
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started. obviously, this has been a distraction. is it something that they just keep ignoring and moving past as joe biden continues to pursue his priorities across the globe? . >> yes, basically. you know, to that extent, the biden -- the white house played this exactly correct, which is despite the fact that much of the country has been absorbed with the impeachment scandal, joe biden was elected to get the country back on its feet. he was elected to address the pandemic head-on. he was elected to bring back the u.s. economy. he was elected to restore a lot of the crumbling institutions that make up the federal government. indeed, in some ways the most important thing for him yesterday was the announcement of 200 million more shots of the vaccine from moderna and pfizer.
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that's huge news. and the prospect that we might be returning to something along the lines of normalcy by the summer or fall of this year. stepping back, the big bet joe biden has made and the biden administration has made is a bet that i think most politicians would have accepted as a pretty good bet for most of american history, which is if you govern better and if you actually generate quality policy results you will be rewarded with re-election. your party will be rewarded with a stronger performance at the ballot box. the scary thing, as anne said, the thing about party politics, if you're a party that is only selling a story of you vote for us because this is who you are, then it doesn't matter how you govern. it doesn't matter that donald trump left the country in far worse shape than when he was elected. he can still be a potent force
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in politics. i think the biden bet is the right way to go. the disturbing thing if you think about 2020 is how much of a thing that was, though. aaron blake pointed out about 90,000 votes had gone a different direction, the republicans would be controlling the house, the senate and the presidency right now. and i think that's part of the reason why the reasons in the senate are loathe to condemn this person. they can feel themselves so tantalizingly close to actually getting power again. that's unfortunately apparently all they care about at this point. >> anne, are you expecting change in trend lines as it pertains to democracies that have grown more liberal in central and eastern europe since the rise of donald trump in the united states? do you expect any movement in poland, in hungary and other
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countries that have grown more authoritarian the past five years? . >> these things are quite subtle. it's not like something happens in u.s. politics and there's an automatic reaction somewhere else. but, yes, i do think if biden is successful and if he shows that he is capable of, as dan says, changing the subject, getting us to stop talking about identity, stoic focusing on the issues that polarize us, and start thinking about things we all have in common, like ending the coronavirus, or getting kids back to school. and if he can do that, and if he can -- it's not just a question of succeeding with those things or doing those things. it's also, you know, getting republicans to care about them and focus on them. if he can change the country's direction, and get us to talk about the things that we all care about, he will be seen as a success. and that will also inspire
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center right, center left, liberal politicians around the world. it will show there is a path back from this kind of authoritarian populism. and so, yeah, i do think a successful biden administration and the end of trumpism would have a very big impact in the long term, not just in the united states but around the world. >> anne applebaum and dan dresner, thank you both very much for coming on this morning. coming up, biden administration secures more vaccines. but how long before every american who wants a shot can get one? new reporting suggests donald trump and his doctors misled the american public about the severity of his health when he was diagnosed covid. . >> what a shock. really, i am shocked. >> "morning joe" is coming right back. >> "morning joe" is coming right back
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44 past the hour. live pictures of new york city as the sun comes up on this friday morning. let's go right now 20 krpbz dominic -- cnbc dominic chu. >> $15 minimum federal wage is still on the table. house speaker nancy pelosi said it will be in the package that the house sends to the senate overall. $1.9 trillion price tag remains. the plan for the democrats is to kind of get to work on getting the bill passed through the budget reconciliation, fast track way to push through the
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senate, vice president would cast a tie-breaker in the senate. in the past couple of weeks, we know president biden lowered expectations about getting a relief package that includes that $15 minimum wage. higher wages means higher taxes for the government, both federal and state level. don't expect to get a reprior on filing the taxes. the internal revenue has no plans to extend the tax filing deadline this year like it did last year, during the heights of the pandemic. the vast majority end up filing the taxes and filing before the april 15th deadline. for context, the average refund last year was around $2,500
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apiece. we will end today on something kind of interesting mere. alexa, amazon's alexa, that is. it will help you fight off would-be thieves. porch pirates could hear alexa's voice if you have one of amazon's ring pro doorbell model. it is called alexa greetings. it will run you $3 a month as a subscription. it will ask any visitors what they want or ask them to tape a video mental or tell a delivery person where to leave packages. i have a lot of those devices in my house already. i have a nest doorbell just to balance things out >> and they're listening to everything you say. . >> they are always listening. >> and they are taking it all into consideration. so just keep that in mind.
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cnbc's dominic chu, have a great weekend. the fulton county district attorney's office is investigating former president trump in his attempt to overturn the state's are ultimate in the election there. he sent a letter to state government officials asking their offices preserve documents related to the phone call in which the then outgoing president press secretary of state brad raffensperger to find the exact number of votes to overturn his loss in georgia. the probe likely will extend beyond that phone call. >> what i know about investigations is they're kind of like peeling back an onion. as you go through each layer you learn different things. to be a responsible prosecutor you must look at all of those things. to be fair to everyone involved, this is a very important matter, as you have already highlighted.
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yes, the investigation seems that it will go past just this one phone call we have discussed. and so you look at facts to see did they have intent, did they understand what they were doing. detailed facts become important, like asking for a specific number and then going back to investigate and understand that number is just one more than the number that is needed. it lets you know that someone had a clear mind. they understood what they were doing. and so when you are pursuing the investigation, facts that may not seem important become very important >> paul butler, this may just be the beginning for president trump. of course that phone call is on tape. brad raffensperger had the presence of mind to tape it because he knew president trump would come out and miss con strao you it. you can look in arizona, michigan, nevada, where people went in and tampered and helped
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try to change the vote. >> impeachment is just the beginning for donald trump. he and his lawyers are going to be in civil and criminal courtrooms all over the united states. it's funny because in georgia his defense is the same as impeachment. the defense is, he didn't actually mean it. it's just trump being trump. you know how he is. he said when i tell my supporters to fight, i don't mean that literally. in georgia it's the same. when i say, you need to find 100,000 votes, i didn't actually mean that. and the republicans in the senate may fall for that defense of don't believe your lying ears, but i don't think an atlanta jury would. i don't think juries in states where he faces civil and criminal liability will be nearly as sympathetic as these 44 republican senators.
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>> not even close. state attorney for palm beach county dave aronberg. you know, dave, when the president accused me of things that i think would get most people sued, i was told, well, you know, even if you could get past the immunity that a president sometimes carries with him. i just heard it. since he's a public figure, you know, lawyers said that would be all he needs. all right. fine. by the way, i don't believe that. i think he could still be sued for that. you i'll tell you what a good case is. if you're a prosecutor, and you are a prosecutor, when somebody says i'll tell you what i need, i need you to find me 11,780 votes. and that same public official
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lost by one vote less. he can't play dumb. donald trump of course is dumb. and this is evidence of it. by saying that on the phone call, he showed that he knew exactly what he was doing. and he would do anything he could get and was saying steal 11,780 votes. it could not be more specific. talk about how damning that will be to the president if this case is brought. >> yeah, joe. there are tapes. those are prosecutors best friends. you don't have to read a transcript. you've got it there on the recording. there is a clear predicate to opening a federal investigation. you can get three years in state prison for election fraud. and misdemeanor if you interfere with the performance of election duties. the key, though, as the
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professor said, is proving inept. it is always a challenge to give the mind of a suspect. but here you have some evidence. the fact that he didn't ask to find fraudulent votes or missing votes. yes, i found a specific number. 11,780 votes, to be exact, which is one more than trump needed to beat joe biden in georgia. so the defense that trump will make, a, i believe in these conspiracy theories. you know, i'm just trying to exercise my first amendment rights. but also counter to that, he knew that his own former attorney general, his own former election security chief, the republican governor of georgia who was an ally, and all the judges that heard this stuff, including his own appointed judges, debunked it. if prosecutors could show these were indeed bogus, it goes a long way of getting a conviction
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beyond a reasonable doubt. >> and what would a conviction in that case mean for former president donald trump? >> mika, there's a one-year minimum in state prison for the charge of felony solicitation of election fraud. you could get a lesser sentence of suspension alley interfering of the duties of an election official. it will be up to a jury. this is not the u.s. senate, a political body, where you have jurors in cahoots with the defense lawyers. this is real stuff in a community, fulton county, which went for biden in a big way. if you're wondering if the president could get a pardon from the governor, well, first they're not on good terms. but even if they were, in ga there is a special committee on
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partisan polls. trump doesn't have a great record on the deep state. >> wow. that's a case to watch. state attorney for palm beach county dave aronberg. thank you very much. paul butler, we're asking our guests to bring up a name of somebody in the history of our country, a black american, who you want to highlight today. who do you choose? >> especially this black history month, barbara jordan, the congresswoman from texas. when congress was considering the impeachment of richard nixon, she gave one of the great political speeches. she said the constitution had an elegant beginning. we the people. but it didn't include her. she said her faith in the constitution is complete. and then some of the most stirring words ever uttered on the house floor, she said, i am not going to sit here and be an
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idle spectator to the diminution, the sub version, the destruction of the constitution. in this second impeachment trial, i hope every senator on that floor represents those words and is inspired by this heroic african-american woman. >> beautiful. professional in law at georgetown university, paul butler. >> still ahead, house managers wrap their case against former president trump yesterday with some new evidence, including how trump may have been personally informed that mike pence was in physical danger when trump then attacked the vice president on twitter during the attack on the capitol. more joe is back in one moment. t
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if we don't draw the line
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here, what's next? what makes you think the nightmare with trump and you his violent mobs is over? if we let him get away with it and it comes to your state capitol or here again, what are we going to say? >> you know, i'm not afraid of donald trump running again in four years. i'm afraid he's goes to run again and lose, because he can do this again. >> welcome back no "morning joe". it is friday, february 12th. along with joe, willie and me, we have national security expert, columnist at "usa today" and author of "the death of expertise" tom nichols. and white house correspondent and host of "way too early", kasie hunt is with us. a lot to cover this hour. >> so, kasie, talk about the split -- we were talking with
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anne applebaum earlier. but what you are seeing in the senate. it's interesting. i saw a picture somebody posted a few days ago of mitt romney glaring at josh hawley while he was on the floor. you could see romney burning a hole in the back of hawley, the insurrectionist and traeurt's head. it's fascinating a lot of people like mitt, like murkowski, collins. some of the constitutionalists on the one side while you have, you know, she dictionist ted cruz. who else? mike lee. a guy who said co-conspirator to cop killers should get a mulligan. and others in another clump. there does seem to be a divide
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starting to happen in the republican party. talk about it. >> yeah. that photo of mitt romney glaring at josh hawley from the night of january 6th really i think sets the stage perfectly and helps us understand what we saw yesterday. so, joe, i was in the chamber yesterday during a break in the action. and i actually find those times can be the most interesting. because the cameras in the chambers are turned off. the senators know that. there's always a handful of reporters because of the reporters in the gallery. what i noticed in this break is a cluster of senators around mitch mcconnell's desk. he sets next to john thune. around them were a collection of people, some of them we know are likely to convict. mitt romney, lisa murkowski. but there was a wider group. bill cassidy who voted the trial was constitutional.
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jerry moran, the senator from kansas who some sources suggest may be open to voting for conviction, though it is very circumspect at this point. richard burr came over to have a conversation. as this was unfolding, senator mcconnell went over and had a conversation, both wearing masks, with richard shelby, who is now retiring. one of the last old bulls in the senate. and you could really see the physical divide between them and lindsey graham, mike lee. josh hawley sitting, again, up in the balcony watching instead of sitting at his desk on the floor. at one point, graham, lee, went and huddled with the defense attorney. this is the divide literally playing out on the floor of the senate. that group around mcconnell is fascinating to me, joe.
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we do not know how mcconnell is going to vote. while i had previously had a sense that we would see these five republicans vote to convict or there would be some sort of landslide, it would be 20 plus people, i think now it's possible we could see between 9 and 12 vote to convict. it is clear there is some sort of conversation happening among this group. that is the reporting i'm going to be looking into today. and you talk about john thune being around the mcconnell group. obviously concerned and some of the things he said over the past, that concern is only growing more by the day. tom nichols, if you're john thune, mitch mcconnell, mitt romney, lisa murkowski, susan collins, if you're an institutionalist, if you believe in the united states senate, if you actually believe in the
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republican party, as many of them do still, how do you allow yourself with a guy who said that a co conspirator to cop killers should get a mulligan? there doesn't seem to be much of a future in that wing of the party. >> i suspect the way they have gone through it is the way they have much of the trump era, which is to grit their teeth, grip the arms of their chair, and just try to get through it, which seems to be the motto of a lot of these republicans is to simply just survive the next
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round of humiliation and pain brought because of the complete subservience to donald trump. i think it's right to note that people that are probably the angriest at people like hawley and cruz are institutionalists. people who take the senate seriously. i was a former senate staffer to be on the floor of the senate is to feel you are in a sacred and important place. i think one of the things that divides some of these folks, josh hawley is not a serious person. ted cruz is not a serious person. the senate is just a vehicle for the folks whereas whatever my agreements with some of the other folks mentioned, they take it seriously as a thing in itself to be protected and respected and treated with some gravity.
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we are in a phase, the protection of the constitution, the establishment of some kind of rule of law here that you have a group of people just determined not to take it seriously and to make a mockery of this thing. even for the people that are going to vote to acquit, that's got to sting. it's got to be something they wish would be taken more seriously, even if they feel they have to simply, you know, grit their teeth and put up with it. they don't have to do it this way, which is really humiliaing on top of everything else, on top of all the other humiliations they are about to endure. >> they had their minds made up long ago. in wrapping up their case against donald trump yesterday, house democrats look to drive home the fact that inciting the attack on the capitol was donald trump's long practice of
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inciting violence. >> no matter how many people inside and outside government begged him to condemn extreme elements, promoting violence, and indeed civil war, in america, race war in america, he just wouldn't do it. that's because he wanted to incite and provoke violence for his own political gain and for his own strategic objectives. i'm going to play for you just a few clips from over the years when the president's words successfully incited supporters to evaluating his opponents. >> see, the first group i was nice. take your time. the second group i was pretty
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nice. the third i will be a little more violent. and the fourth group i will say, get the hell out of here! >> get them the hell out of here, will you, please? get him out of here. throw him out. >> i got a little notice in case you see it. we have wonderful security guards. they said, mr. trump, there may be somebody with tomatoes in the audience. so if you see somebody ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? seriously. okay. just knock the hell -- i promise you, i will pay for the legal fees. i promise. >> house managers showing the pattern of inciting violence. as you talk about the vote counting, what you witnessed in the chamber, something i heard from a democratic senator, their
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appeal to republicans is vote to convict here. vote to convict the president of the united states on these impeachment charges. and then you won't have to vote on the next vote, which is to say he cannot run for federal office ever again. it's a majority vote and we have that covered. is that an argument that appeals to any republican you have talked to? >> well, that's the question, willie. and i haven't had the chance to really dig into it. and framing it as this is how democrats are trying to appeal to republicans is the right way at this point to convey it. they're essentially saying, okay, there's 17 of you that can vote to convict the president then we, democrats, can say that he can't run for office anymore and this would allow republicans to essentially say, okay, constituents who believe this election, because president trump told them this election has problems, we represented our constituents in the senate with our votes. it's actually a pretty classic
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tactic on all kinds of different issues to vote to allow the process to go forward and then to vote something a different way on the underlying bill, for example. but i'm not sure, again, counting to 17 is still extremely difficult in terms of actually getting the conviction. that of course is required if you're going to actually bar him from office. the other point i wanted to make too, willie. mike rounds, after listening to ted lou saying, you know what, if you allow this to go forward, he's going to run again, he's going to lose and this is going to happen again, rounds said that resonated with some republicans. so i think that is really something to keep an eye on and to watch as well. none of them -- if this was a secret ballot, they don't want to have to deal with donald trump running again. you know what, that is even likely true for ted cruz and josh hawley who want to run for president themselves. obviously they're never going to say that in public or admit to it in any form.
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i will probably get angry emails for even suggesting it. but taking him off the stage is something that so many republicans want to do. they're still afraid of what that might mean among his supporters. you were talking about the senate, a place valued in and of itself. >> right. >> josh hawley, ted cruz, they want to be out of the senate and be president of the united states. they're putting their ambitions ahead of all of those other things you were talking about. . >> you know, it's been a launching pad for years. i remember the story about harry reid after barack obama -- i mean, just got to washington saying, hey, listen, you don't like it here. why don't you just go ahead and run for president. on the republican side of that, ted cruz doesn't give a damn about the senate. he never has. josh hawley doesn't give a damn about the senate. he never has. >> he made that clear this week. >> i've never been in the
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senate, right? but i give a damn about the senate. there's a lot of us who actually believe that the senate has to be the world's most deliberative body. they need to at least aspire to do that every day. regardless of what's happening the past four years, the past 40 years, practice, blah, blah. it's never been perfect, okay? it's never been perfect. it wasn't perfect during the trump era. it wasn't when strom thurmond was killing civil rights bills. it wasn't in the lead up to the civil war. it's never been perfect. but you can at least continue to aspire to make it when our founders thought the senate should be.
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those institutionalists. i'm a conservative with a small c. institutionalists sounded pretty damn good right now. i like institutionalists. i like small c conservatives. i like traditionalists. i like people who follow custom, conservativism with a small c. kasie is so right. those institutionalists may be our hope to send a message to donald trump and parts of the republican party that what happened on january 6th was not okay. and i also want to say really quickly, kasie brings up a great point. that was a wonderful sort of turn of logic when he said on the floor i'm not worried about donald trump running and winning begin again.
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oh, no, we will beat him again. i'm worried about him running again and losing. because look how that loss brought the greatest history and crisis since 1861. >> yeah. for ted cruz and josh hawley, if they don't understand how transactional and brutal this relationship that they have with trump and trumpism is, this was presented house impeachment managers presented evidence indicated president trump may have been personally informed that mike pence was in physical danger when trump attacked the vice president on twitter during the attack on the capitol. >> the vice president of the united states of america, his own vice president, was in this building with an armed mob shouting, hang him.
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the same armed mob that set up gallos outside. you saw those pictures. and what did president trump do? he attacked him more. he singled him out by name. it's honest live hard to fathom. >> it's hard to fathom how many republicans just continue to feed into what trump wants. and then he kicks them in the face. let's bring in fernando esprellas and on univision radio. you got a lot of people talking. if mike pence had been assassinated during the riot, he would have declared martial law and suspended the transfer of power. this is the logic of a coup
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attempt, why trump made noest to save his vice president. fair enough. do you think, fernando, that this is a compelling case for the republicans still holding toward trump that he would do in one of his top people if it helped him win? >> sure. good morning, mika. clearly here what we have is a big question raskin asked at the end of the presentation yesterday. what was trump doing for those two hours? the information we have now is that he was fleefully watching on television. he must have realized he was running a tremendous risk. as bad as things were, it could have been a lot worse. as we all understand now. he must have known that. advisers must have known that. they had to make an affirmed decision to take any care, any action that could have saved the
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vice president and the rest of congress. and i think maybe -- i sent that before we found out that trump knew pence was in trouble. maybe i have ptsd from the coup i lived through as a child in central america. coup plotters don't know how all the events will shake out. they're watching. they know he can make certain decisions. and i think what happened was here he realized the coup was not going to be successful, there wasn't going to be some sort of huge break and maybe that's when he pulled back. but i think that's the real question republicans have to answer. yeah. you know, tom nichols, we always think it's bad. we always think it can't get worse. and then wii find out that donald trump was on the phone with a freshman senator.
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and the freshman senator said i can't talk to you anymore, mr. president, they just rushed mike pence out of the chamber and hung up the phone on him. trump waited 10 minutes and then put out -- blasted out a tweet to all of his followers that that mike pence betrayed the cause. donald trump knowing mike pence and his wife and his children were in danger, and he sent out that tweet not in spite of that fact but because of that fact. >> donald trump lives his life mediated through television. we have to stop being shocked at the fact that donald trump is a
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sociopath. that has been proven over and over and over again. for trump, this was a television show, and he was either going to win or lose at the end of it. the fact that there were real people involved who could be hurt, including the most loyal person in his orbit who could have been killed means nothing to him. i think instead of dwelling on, you know, the obvious emotional disorder and derangement of our now former president, it's -- what is still remarkable is that there are several republicans who, when confronted with this reality, their reaction is to basically say, eh, what are you going to do? that's how it went. that's how the guy is. i'm not going back to missouri, to texas. in the house, i'm not going back to upstate new york. i'm going to have to do what i have to do to stay in the
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emerald city f. that means voting to acquit this guy, then voting against impeachment or acquit him, that's what i'm going to do. we spent a lot of time thinking how to coddle republicans who just have to do their duty and won't. we talked about secret votes. if they didn't have to say it out loud, all they have to do is get up in the morning, recite the simple the oath they are supposed to recite. they will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. and they just can't do it. >> they can't do it. fernando, if this vote goes the way we expect it to this weekend, they can't get the 17 republicans and donald trump is acquitted as someone you just referenced who lived through something in south america, what does it say about our country, what does it mean going forward. not just for the united states senate and for the congress, but what does it mean for america
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that we will have made this statement that former president trump is not held accountable for what happened january 6th? >> well, i think we would be repeating so many mistakes of countries in the black where the coup plotter gets forgiven, there is amnesty so everybody can get back together and hug, and then it becomes more dangerous either directly because of the direction they take like hugo chavez like he did in the first coup, or he inspires, hey, that wasn't too bad what he did and giving us an opening to advance with our goals. so i think the united states has a democracy brand which has been severely challenged and damaged by donald trump. and we have here an opportunity -- it's not the last opportunity -- to pull it back together and essentially say to the world this was an aberration, something that happened, we're going forward. going back to what we are. not perfect, but certainly champions of democracy.
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i think if republicans say it once again with just the mountain of evidence against him, it would be discrediting to them. but i think to the united states of america even more so. >> fernando, thank you for being on the show. still ahead on "morning joe", dick durbin, new chairman of the senate judiciary committee and a juror in the trump impeachment trial. plus, the latest on covid relief as democrats appear to be going full steam ahead toward a party line vote. you're watching "morning joe". we'll be right back. we'll be right back. did you know you can go to libertymutual.com to customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need? really? i didn't-- aah! ok. i'm on vibrate. aaah! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪
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presidential candidate nikki haley feels donald trump won't be involved in republican politics much longer. when asked if the gop could heal with the former president in the picture, haley tells politico tim alberta, quote, i don't think he's going to be in the picture, she said, matter-of-factly. i don't think he can. he's fallen so far. we need to acknowledge he let us down, she continued. he went down a path he shouldn't have. and we shouldn't have followed him. and we shouldn't have listened to him. and we can't let that ever happen again. joe, your thoughts? >> well, kasie hunt, you were talking about the clumps of people on the senate floor. that's going to be happening in the republican party at large. that's going to be happening with people who want to be president in 2024.
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obviously ted cruz, josh hawley are quite comfortable in the insurrectionist caucus, the cop killer's caucus. nikki haley doesn't obviously want to be in the cop killer's caucus. it seems she is trying to make some space for herself here. still, it is a dramatic move for her regardless. for whatever reason. >> yeah. it's a dramatic quote. and here is my question, joe. and this piece just dropped this morning. i have been trying to piece together a timeline here. because more recently nikki haley has said that donald trump doesn't deserve to be impeached. she said on fox news to give the gueye break. so as i am reading through this, the interview, according to the politico piece that tim alberta did where she made the comments was january 12th. so that was just as the impeachment articles were being written. it was as the memory was extremely fresh of january 6th.
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now, one of the things that happened to the senators was that politics set in. so i am wondering what nikki haley is going to say today about this quote. and she will be asked to explain it. is she going to try to walk it back? is she going to commit to it. the thesis of alberta's piece is the outline, she has to decide am i on the trump team or staking my will own path saying we need to move forward. she hasn't made up her mind. she knows she's running for president. she's not sure which side of the divide they will be on. that's the bet every republican has to make. and cruz and hawley are betting we can't win without the trump supporters. look at adam kinzinger saying absolutely not. we have to turn the page here. she is going to be an interesting figure to watch in that article. . >> incredible piece.
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it goes deep into her thinking. >> the news about donald trump, the information about donald trump, it's only going to get worse by the day. there are only going to be more lawsuits by the day that dig into what he did state by statement by state that will make him far closer to a vladimir putin style figure than a ronald reagan style figure. that is the smart bet. it doesn't mean republicans are going to be smart because they haven't the last four years as they lost control of washington, d.c. and all the reigns of power. it seems if she moves in this direction, that's the direction she's going. not shocked. gambling goes on. >> i'm just getting through this piece from tim alberta, which is an incredible document.
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you watch the progression of rhetoric when tim alberta pushes again and again about lying about the election. she said again and again, well, he believes it. her quote is that would be like you saying grass is blue and you genuinely believe that. is it irresponsible that you're color blind and you truly believe it? she said it's okay that he says the election is stolen because it's something he believes. and then she comes out with this quote we just highlighted a minute ago criticizing him. tom nichols, this is the dilemma perhaps for many republicans who have stood by either served at the site of president trump or looked the other way everything he's done the last four and a half, five years. how do you turn away from this president if you have stood by him so long? >> clearly the strategy for a lot of these republicans is to say a bunch of things that you will then cherry pick from
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later. i mean, haley is putting out a bunch of statements. and i just wonder how much longer we have to take nikki haley seriously of basically saying well i was for him before i was against him. and then i was against him after i was for him. she'll have a whole bunch of statements and they can say, well, she criticized him. she said this, she said that. but in the end she and many others refused to repudiate them. again, it amazes me how infant tilized the republican party has come because of donald trump. they sound like parents trying to explain why their kid is setting waste basket fires. he's a good boy. he doesn't understand. it doesn't matter. again, there is -- the next leader of some kind of center
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movement is someone who has to say donald trump was a disaster for the country. he is an authoritarian. joe, you compared him to putin. it is almost an insult to putin who is clever and ruthless and tough as compared to this kind of socio pathic incompetence here. so i think to answer willie's question, they're going to flood the zone. they will put out enough different comments so when pushed to the wall, they can say, well, i did say things. but they're never going to repudiate because they are making the same mistake of 2016. they think they will be the heir to the voters and the donations that will be left behind once they hi donald trump exits the scene. i agree with fernando. i think this is just a disastrous mistake. yeah. you know, willie, it is the mistake that these republicans have made time and again.
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they made it in the primary in 2016. they're like, okay, let's not attack donald trump because he'll attack us. we need his supporters and let's not -- and pretty soon he won. and nobody would stand up to him in 2018. and they lost the house of representatives by record-breaking margins in vote totals. and they wouldn't stand up to him in 2019. they lost southern governor ships in kentucky, louisiana. they wouldn't stand up to him in 2020 and they lost the white house and the senate. while he was obviously doing everything he could do to have the republicans lose the two georgia senate races. they still were kissing up to him. kelly loeffler and david perdue were still kissing up to him. that's just -- i'm sorry. that's just stupid.
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when are they going to -- maybe nikki haley has figured this out. but, willie, when are they going to figure out that this guy in the immortal words of lindsey, what's lindsey's middle name? it starts with an o. orenthal james. i don't know. if you elect donald trump, he will destroy the republican party and he will deserve it. well, here we are. and they still haven't figured it out yet. >> my god. . >> i'm still stuck on you sneaking o.j. into the middle of lindsey graham's name? >> what's his middle name? >> olan. just move on. >> this dynamic you playing out in the senate which is ted cruz, josh hawley, marco rubio and
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people who think they are going to be president some day don't dare cross donald trump for fear of losing some of his voters. so how do i criticize him in certain moments to say, look, i was critical of donald trump in the moments when i needed to be. but also not alienate his voters. it is an impossible dance to do. you're either on board with donald trump, you're on the train or you're not. we will see in this vote this weekend that a bunch of senate republicans are fully on the train. >> all right. >> okay. tom nichols, thank you very much for being on. we need to get to our next guest now. joining us now the secretary of the department of homeland security, alejandro mayorkas. before we get to the news, we would like to ask you outside the halls of the capitol and
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across america, there is and appears to be a growing existing problem with white supremacy. and is there any effort and concern from the point of view of the department of homeland security of domestic terrorism growing in the u.s.? >> good morning and thank you for the opportunity. there most certainly is. let me start on the note of that horrible day of january 6th. because i'm an immigrant to this country. and i came here with my parents as a very young child. my parents and my sister because of the opportunities, the freedoms and the liberties that democracy provided. and to see one of the pillars of that democracy destroyed was horrific sight. the rise of domestic terrorism in the united states, the rise of domestic violent extremism is one of the greatest concerns
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that we have in the department of homeland security, and it is one of our priorities to address it. through the provision of information, through our law enforcement efforts, along with state and local first responders, and community partnerships, we are going to tackle this challenge. >> will congress passing a law that makes domestic terrorism a crime help your efforts out? >> i think i look forward to working with congress to considering whatever legislation best equips the united states government in addressing this challenge. we're taking a look at the tools at our disposal currently and assessing with our partners in congress in a bipartisan way what other tools we need to best tackle this priority challenge of ours. it is urgent. >> mr. secretary, it's willie geist. good to have you on the show
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this morning. do you agree with testimony given last year by christopher wray that domestic terror in many ways has superseded foreign terrorism as the greatest threat internally to the united states? >> thank you, willie for the opportunity to be on the show. i do agree with director wray. i want to echo something else he said. many threats we face are persistent. whether one supersedes another at a particular point in time doesn't mean that the remaining challenge is behind us. the threat of terrorism from abroad is a persistent one. the threat of domestic terrorism here, the violent extremism here at home has emerged as an urgent threat.
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that is how i think we look at it across the homeland security enterprise. >> so, mr. secretary, let's talk about immigration and the remain in mexico policy put in place and is there under the trump administration, still there now. how will you be addressing that issue? >> thanks for the opportunity to address this. let me again set the stage for the efforts that we are announcing today. one of the greatest sources as our pried is our tradition as a country of refuge. for those seeking safe haven from persecution from their countries of origin. and our source of pride, our asylum system, our refugee system here in the united states was brought to a screeching and inhumane halt during the prior administration. we are incredibly devoted to
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rebuilding those programs and restoring our proud traditions and those sources of pride. the remain in mexico policy that the trump administration launched and that president biden ended is something we have been addressing around the clock. i am proud of the men and women in the department of homeland security working with international organizations to be able to announce february 19th we will begin to process individuals and consider their asylum claims through a program built with those organizations and the department of mexico to allow them to make their claims of asylum in a safe, orderly and efficient manner. it's going to take time. we launched the program on the
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19th. but it's an incredibly important for meme, for these migrants who indeed have been suffering terribly. it's very important for them to understand that they must wait. they must give us the opportunity to address their claims, to address the sources of their desperation in an orderly and efficient way. a drive to the border in haste will only exacerbate the humanitarian conditions that have been plaguing this program under the trump administration. so let us do our work. and i can go through the mechanics of the program if you would like. >> kasie hunt, jump in. you have the next question. >> mr. secretary, good to see you. i do want to follow-up on the
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point about a safe and efficient system. where are our capabilities right now on our side of the border that if in fact, the message that you are trying to get here isn't received and afford, and we have to deal with more my grants in a pandemic, are we equipped to handle that humanely? . >> we are building the capacity to handle that safely, efficiently and humanely. please understand, i cannot overemphasize this point, that we are starting from square one. and to rebuild an asylum program that delivers to people in need the humane conditions that they deserve and of which we can be proud takes time. it's not turning on a light
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switch. we are talking about rebuilding infrastructure, rebuilding facilities, rebuilding operations, bringing to bear the personnel and talent, implementing the policies and procedures to allow that. this program we are launching february 19th is just the beginning. it's a remarkable program we have built in the partnerships i have described where people can register for access to the united states asylum program remotely. they don't have to take the perilous journey to the southern border but they can register remotely through a virtual platform. we will address the needs of individuals according to the time in which they entered the remain in mexico program. and with the assistance of international organizations, we
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will address those who have acute vulnerabilities and expedite their processing. the international objections will test for covid. we will address their needs. we will do this in a way that protects them and protects the american public. >> secretary of homeland security, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it. and still ahead, the cdc is expected to issue new guidelines today on reopening schools. the new reporting on that ahead on "morning joe". on that ahead on "morning joe"
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i want to do something with a purpose because the world responds. i'm marcela and i put myself out there with godaddy. this week, we watched several women over the age of 50 stepping up to show their value. and they did so on the floor of the united states congress, where just weeks ago a mob of trump supporters attempted to
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lay waste to the u.s. constitution causing death and destruction and violently, physically aiming to impede the process of our democracy. standing in their way are leaders like congresswoman stacy plaskett of the u.s. virgin islands, which as a territory does not have a vote in congress but she can use her voice. that's exactly what the 54-year-old former prosecutor and mother of five did. >> this capitol that was conceived by our founding fathers, that was built by slaves, that remains through the sacrifice of service, men and women around the world. when i think of that and i think of these insurgents, these images incited by our own
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president of the united states, attacking this capitol to stop the certification of a presidential election. >> and then there's madeline dean, at 61 the pennsylvania democrat is a mother, grandmother, attorney, professor, public servant. you can add another tight toll that list, defender of democracy. >> this attack never would have happened but for donald trump. so they came, draped in trump's flag and used our flag, the american flag to batter and to bludgeon. >> and let's talk about diana, who is in her 12th term on
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capitol hill. there's a reason nancy pelosi tapped the 63-year-old lawyer to help make the case against donald trump. she's seen a lot over her two decades in washington. and there's one thing she never wants to see again. >> what unfathomable horrors await us if we do not stand up now and say no, this is not america. we will not just express condolences and denunciations, we won't just close the book and try to move on. we will act to make sure this never happens again. >> these women were part of a powerful team that made the case for conviction. i was taken by how these women owned the room. how they brought their full life experience to the table not just as lawyers and lawmakers but as mothers and wives and in doing that making their cases even
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stronger and more passionate. these are the women we are recognizing as we lead up to the forbes 50 over 50 list that will be unveiled in a few months. powerful women achieving great success and paying it forward. in fact, there are more women over 50 in this country than ever before. we're seeing an amazing trend. many of these women are transitioning from care taking or caring too much about what other people think to taking their careers in their own hands, whether it's creating new businesses, switching gears, or turbo charging the arc of their professions. you should nominate someone or nominate yourself. go to knowyourvalue.com to learn much more about that. we have much more ahead on the impeachment managers wrapping up their case against former president trump. their new evidence and their final arguments that the world is watching and that there's
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he has done it before. he will do it again. what are the odds if left in office that he will continue trying to cheat? i will tell you, 100%. not 5%, not 10% or even 50%, but 100%. if you have found him guilty and you do not remove him from office, he will continue trying to cheat in the election until he succeeds. then what shall you say? >> president trump declared his conduct totally appropriate. so he gets back into office and it happens again, we will have
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no one to blame but ourselves. >> the lead impeachment managers in both trials of donald trump warning against the same thing. along with joe, willie and me, we have staff writer for the atlantic magazine, anne applebaum. professor of international politics at fletcher school of law and tufts university, dan dresdner joins us, and professor in law at georgetown and msnbc legal analyst, paul butler is with us. so house democrats rested their case against donald trump yesterday with the lead impeachment manager urging senators to exercise, quote, common sense and warning of what could happen if trump is not convicted. >> if we don't draw the line here, then what's next? what makes you think the law making and violent mobs is over?
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if we let him get away with it, and then it comes to your state capitol or comes back here again, what are we going to say? >> you know, i'm not afraid of donald trump running again in four years. i'm afraid he's going to run again and lose. because he can do this again. >> when you or i make a mistake and something very bad happens, we would show remorse. we would accept responsibility. president trump didn't do any of that. he was asked by a reporter, quote, what is your role in what happened at the capitol? what is your personal responsibility? and this was his answer. >> my speech and my words and my final paragraph, my final sentence. and everybody to the t thought it was totally appropriate. >> on january 12th, president trump had seen the violent
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attack on the capitol. he knew the people that died. and his message to all of us was, that his conduct was totally appropriate. i'm a former prosecutor. and we're trained to recognize lack of remorse. but it doesn't take a prosecutor to understand that president trump was not showing remorse. he was showing defiance. he was telling us that he would do this again. that he could do this again. >> you know, there were times, willie that i would walk in and out of the room and the tv was on, the impeachment arguments were being made, and i just shrugged my shoulders. are we really pretending that a case has to be made? because everybody that was watching yesterday, every one of these senators, they all know the basics. they know that that mob came to washington, d.c. because of one person, because of donald trump. >> they had been there the whole
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time. >> he had called them to washington, d.c. they also -- we also know, and everybody that's in the senate understands that his intention all along was to disrupt the proceedings. that's why we learned this week there was a permit for his speech, and he changed it to a speech and then a march for a mob up to the capitol. then we understand all the riots, while the insurrection, while the cop killing was going on, he was watching with glee as the trump terrorists were brutalizing police with american flags and breaking through windows and threatening the lives of mike pence and other members that were inside that building. we learned also that he talked to tommy tuberville who said mike pence has just been taken out. so he said i can't talk to you, mr. president, because mike pence and everybody is in danger. ten minutes after that he tweets
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an attack against mike pence to put him more in danger, to put his life more in danger, to put his wife's life more in danger, to put his family's life more in danger while they were chanting, hang mike pence. and of course we understand what happened after. that the president has shown time and again utter remorseless for all that has happened here. so why are we having this trial? we're having this trial because some republicans actually care more about their political careers than they do this republic of ours. that's why. it comes down to that. >> no, that's exactly right. and the evidence was overwhelming. the presentation was comprehensive. but we knew a lot of this beforehand. it was damning beforehand. now, as you just laid out, we have all this new information that bowl sisters the case. if you did a blind test and said this is president x, if you were a united states senator and you
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heard all of this evidence, is there any doubt that the vote would be unanimous to convict. if this were barack obama god forbid, bill clinton, if hillary clinton had become president, don't you think it would be unanimous just based on the evidence. instead you have republicans coming out again yesterday reiterating they are going to vote to acquit. this is a waste of time. the proceedings are offense. they're showing the videos too many times of the attack that day. it is getting gratuitous. complaints about the presentation being made. you had three republican senators, jurors, mind you, joe, mike lee, ted cruz, lindsey graham meeting with defense counsel last night. they said they were talking about process about how the next day would work. those are three jurors meeting with former president trump's attorneys. and today we will see president trump's attorneys present for just two or three hours, they say, present their defense, move to senators' questions and get a vote to get this over with
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they hope by saturday or sunday. lead impeachment manager jamie raskin concluded the case yesterday by posing the questions the managers would have asked former president trump had he agreed to sit and testify. >> we would pose these preliminary questions to his lawyers, which i think are on everyone's minds right now and which we would have asked mr. trump himself if he come to chose to testify about his actions and inactions when we invited him last week. one, why did president trump not tell his supporters to stop the attack on the capitol as soon as he learned of it? why did president trump do nothing to stop the attack for at least two hours after the attack began? as our constitutional commander in chief, why did he do nothing to send help to our overwhelmed and besieged law enforcement
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officers for at least two hours on january 16th after the attack began? on january 6th, why did president trump not at any point that day condemn the violent insurrection and the insurrectionists? and i'll add a legal question that i hope his distinguished counsel will address. if a president did invite a violent insurrection against our government, as of course we allege and think we have proven in this case, but just in general, if a president incited an insurrection, would that be a high crime and misdemeanor? can we all agree at least on that? >> anne applebaum the reason the defense team will present today for a few hours before resting because they know they have those republicans in the bag, they have the votes to acquit donald trump and they don't have to make much of a case.
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but, as i said, can you imagine what ted cruz would have said, done, and voted on if this were barack obama having done 1/10th of what we heard over the last two days? >> no, of course objectively speaking there is no case and that's why trump's legal team has had so much difficulty presenting one. i think what you have to understand here is republicans in the senate, like republicans in other parts of the party, not the whole party. you have to imagine they have been captured by an alternative ideology or alternative way of seeing the world. they are no longer part of the constitutional agreement of the united states. they no longer are playing by the same rules. they no longer are interested in rule of law. they have convinced themselves for a variety of reasons, partly self-interest, partly pressure from the their electorate that they believe the democrats are so evil, so marxist, so
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communist, so insane that they have no choice they have to convince themselves they are outside the law and president trump is outside the law. they are now following a different path. the attack on the capitol wasn't republicans attacking democrats. it was a mob attacking our political system. and trump was urging that on. that's what they are had he now in sympathy with. >> so, anne, it reminds me, again, just looking at not the democratic and the republican party but even looking at a divide inside the republican party. watching a lot of republicans leave the republican party. richard haass announcing yesterday he was doing it. hundreds of thousands are doing it across the country. it remind me so much of what you wrote about in "twilight of democracy" about friends that you knew in poland and the split. not the split between the left
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and the right. the split between the right and the center right. and a lot of it had to do with the conspiracy theory about a crash. as you explained -- an airplane crash. and as you explained the conspiracy theories changed every day, and it didn't matter that the facts constantly changed and constantly contradicted themselves. they became identified with this. the same thing appears to be happening here in the united states where these republicans, they really don't care what the facts are. they don't care about the cop killers. they don't care how many died. they're going to follow donald trump and those conspiracy theories and those facts no matter what. >> you have to understand conspiracy theories as a kind of alternative reality. they now live in an altered
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reality, some consciously, some unconsciously, in which donald trump did win and in which the election was stolen. or they have agreed to go along with it for a variety of reasons, personal and political. but you're right, this kind of division ten reality and alternative reality that splits political parties, it happened on the left in the past. it is happening on the right now. it is happening in more than one country. it's a damaging pattern. one of the things that was very striking in the last week, the sight of liz cheney, daughter of a republican vice president who is herself no liberal going on fox news and saying donald trump lost the election. joe biden won the election. and that statement being so shocking she was actually denounced by laura ingraham and other fox presenters, she was
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attacked by other republicans for just saying what was true. that's because, as i say, the party has divided over the question of what's real and what's not real. part of the party is headed in this alternative direction. they believe in an alternate ideology and live in an altered reality. still ahead, senator dick durbin joins the conversation, we'll get his reaction so far and what the republicans are saying when the cameras are not rolling. you're watching "morning joe."
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impeachment manager joachim castro talked about the implications of the big lie and the attack on the capitol had on the country's standing in the world. >> the world watched president trump tell his big lie.
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the world watched his supporters come to washington at his invitation. and the world watched as he told his supporters to march here to the capitol. and president trump, our commander in chief at the time, failed to take any action to defend us. as he utterly failed in his duty to preserve, protect, and defend. and now the world is watching us wondering whether our constitutional republic is going to respond the way it should. and the way it's supposed to. >> think of the consequences to our diplomats and negotiators as they sit around a table discuss trade and human rights. to fail to convict a president of the united states who incited a deadly insurrection, who acted
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in concert with a violent mob, who interfered with the certification of the electoral college votes, who abdicated his duty as commander in chief would be to forfeit the power of our example as a north star on freedom, democracy, human rights, and most of all, on the rule of law. >> so dan dresner, i want to ask you about that. this is an issue mika and i have debated for some time, and she may want to follow-up with this. but this idea that because of what's going on here america's position in the world will be forever damaged. i look at china's problems, president xi's problems. i look at vladimir putin's problems. i'd rather have our problems than their problems, especially with the administration we have now, the president we have now, the secretary of state now that we
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have. what do you think right now in early february 2021 -- let me get the year right. what do you think our standing is in the world as it pertains to donald trump? and i'll ask the question we asked while he was in. how much lasting damage will be done because of what people have seen this week? >> i think america's standing has recovered somewhat since donald trump left office. there's no denying that. if you take a look at polling, it would be safe to say a lot of the rest of the world feels a palpable sense of relief that donald trump is no longer the president. they understand where joe biden is coming from. they recognize joe biden's foreign policies as policies that are traditionally american. so in that sense you can argue that america's standing has recovered somewhat. and i think the further along we go into a biden administration
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and the degree to which trump reseeds from view, the damage might be perhaps less than feared. that said, the problem with january the 6th, the problem with republican senators en masse, despite the evidence that is literally in front of their face, they are going to vote to acquit, they can no longer take u.s. democracy for granted in a way they were able to do so for decades, indeed in some cases, centuries. the fear is not what the u.s. government will do now. joe biden is the president. you know, for the next four years at least, you will see what looks like a conventional foreign policy. the fear is, is this the last you see of this kind of
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illiberal, populist authoritarian leader in charge of a major political party. and the fact that one of the two major political parties in this country refuses to repudiate these sorts of actions, even when members do repudiate it or repudiated themselves by state parties, national leaders. that is i think going to give the rest of the world more pause. it weakens one of the most important elements of diplomacy, which is our ability to credibly commit. if joe biden signs an agreement, and even for that matter he gets congress to ratify it, will the next republican president commit to it. so this is -- the problem is not just trump. the problem is what does the republican party stand for from here on in. and is what they stand for consistent with what we consider longstanding american values. coming up, donald trump sent them there.
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more and more members of the mob are admitting they were in washington on january 6th on the orders of the ex-president. we'll get the legal implications of that next on "morning joe." i'm looking for my client. i'm his accountant. i'm so sorry. hey! -hey man, you're here! you don't trust me here in vegas, do you? uh, well... i thought we had a breakthrough with the volkswagen. -we did, yeah! we broke through. that's the volkswagen?! -that's the cross sport. wow. -seatbelts! please just tell me where we're going. new advil dual action
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paul butler, the job of pous impeachment managers is not just to remind us and remind the jury of how troubling that day was. diana degette showed evidence that they were on orders to storm the capitol. >> there are statements before, during and after that made clear the attack was done for donald trump, at his instructions, and to fulfill his wishes. donald trump had sent them there. they truly believed that the whole intrusion was at the president's orders. as one man explained on a live stream he taped from inside the capitol, quote, our president wants us here.
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we wait and take orders from our president. >> does he not realize president trump called us to siege the place? >> let's call trump. yes. dude, dude, let's tell trump what's up. >> trump would be very upset. >> just say we love you, bo. no. he will be happy. what do you mean? we're fighting for trump. >> meanwhile, the justice department says the leader of the oathkeepers militia group was waiting for trump's orders about how to handle the vote in the days that followed the election. citing court papers, the "new york times" reports that one leader of the group texted an associate on november 9th saying potus has the right to activate units too. if trump asks me to come, i will. part of the argument we will hear today, paul, from the defense team is that president trump didn't intend to incite with his speech or his tweets over those couple of months, and
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that it's out of his control how those people responded to what he said. what do you make of that argument? >> it's overcome by the incredibly powerful case that the democrats are putting on. the first day of the trial they focused on the insurrection, the violence, the assaults on police officers, the rush to keep our lawmakers out of harm's way. yesterday was all about donald trump. saying donald trump owns that. he said march. they marched. he said fought. they fought. i think the house managers are trying to make three points. first, trump incited the mob. second, that was his intent. and third, that even as an ex-president he remains a clear and present danger, which is why he must be convicted and then barred from holding federal office ever again. so all the videos, all of these
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dramatic statements from witnesses and victims are designed to move the republicans to try to get the 17 votes they need which, along with the 50 democratic senators will result in trump's conviction. coming up, nearly 140,000 voters left the gop in 25 states in january. richard haass did the same thing months ago, but only decided to go public with that now. he explains why straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪♪
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and deliver future-ready protection, keeping you sharp for tomorrow. join us, the defenders, in our mission. cybereason. end cyber attacks. from endpoints to everywhere. it's no secret that the vaccination program was in much worse shape than my team and i anticipated. we were under the impression and were told we had a lot move resources than we did when we came into office. we have only been here three weeks we learned a great deal in those three weeks. scientists did their job in discovering vaccines in record time, my predecessor, to be
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blunt about it, did not do his job to get ready for the massive job of vaccinating hundreds of millions of americans. he didn't order enough vaccine. he didn't mobilize enough people to give the shots. he didn't set up vaccine centers where eligible people could go and get their shots. >> that's president biden speaking yesterday while visiting the laboratories at the national institutes of health. the biden administration finalized a deal with pfizer and moderna securing an additional 200 million covid vaccines for americans. the contracts each were signed with the companies guarantees 100 million doses which paired with the 400 million allocated by the trump administration should be enough, says the biden administration, to vaccinate all 300 million americans. though the president said the vaccinations likely won't be done by the end of summer. the white house facing criticism after it suggested
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schools will be considered open if in-person learning is conducted one day a week. here's white house press secretary jen psaki addressing that issue. >> can you explain to american parents that just one day a week of in-person school, does that count as schools being open? why should they be satisfied with that? >> they shouldn't be. i wouldn't be as a parent. and i am a parent. i have two young kids. i know many of you have kids as well. the president wants schools to open safely. we'll listen to science and medical experts. the cdc guidelines, we expect them to come out tomorrow. we are eager to hear more about the clear signs-based guidelines for opening schools, how we can do that safely and keep them open. the president will not rest until every school is open five days a week. that's our goal. that's what we want to achieve. >> the "new york times" reports that 175 experts largely agree
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it's safe for schools to be open for elementary students for full-time in-person instruction now if proper safety precautions are taken. the cdc guidelines are expected to come out today. joe, this is something that was announced on our show yesterday, that the cdc would put out new guidelines on school reopening. the biden administration says it will wait, not get ahead of the cdc. if the cdc says yes schools should be open, which by the way is something that the cdc director said last week at a white house briefing, that teachers don't need to be vaccinated necessarily as long as these social distancing and masking precautions are put in place, that schools are safe to be open. >> yeah. we'll see what the cdc recommendations are. but as it pertains to science and the "new york times" article says, there's not really a debate scientifically. politically maybe. let's bring in the chairman of
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the judiciary committee, senator dick durbin. this is obviously an issue that hits close to home with you. a lot of chicago parents up in arms, outraged by what's happening with the chicago city schools. what can you tell us not only about what chicago schools should be doing but also what the biden administration should do after it looks like science is fairly clear on this issue. it's safe to send kids back to school. >> i'm happy as a father and grandfather and with some of my grandkids in the chicago public school system that they have reached an agreement and in a matter of days kids will be back in the classroom. it's like willie said at the outset, they have to measure this against the safety issue. they have to listen to the medical experts in terms of the pace of it. we have to make sure not only the students are safe but of course the teachers and administrators. it's an awesome responsibility. i do not diminish the importance
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of getting these kids back in school. both for their educational achievement and their mental well-being. it's time. >> after we have criticized the trump administration for eight, nine months for not following science and after democrats did that regularly, should not the cdc also follow the advice of scientists who say it's critically important to get children back in school? >> yes. we want to follow medical expertise and science over political considerations. i think joe biden has said that over and over. i agree with him. that should be the standard. >> senator, let's talk impeachment. the defense for former president trump will make its case today. could be a vote as early as tomorrow after senators questions. do you have any sense after having sat through the last two
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days of house managers presentations of whether there are now more republicans perhaps than you anticipated that might vote for conviction? i think the conventional wisdom is that 17 is too high a bar to get conviction. are there more that have been swayed by what they saw in that chamber over the last two days? >> willie, i just don't know. i try to put myself in their shoes, measure what we've just seen. it's been an overwhelming presentation by the house managers of the facts and the law. videotape to back up everything that they said. the president's own personal tweets. all of this information is there. the question now when we look at senate republicans is whether they will be loyal to this president and vote against conviction, loyal to a president who turned a murderous mob on his own vice president in the closing hours of that day or whether they're afraid politically that if they vote against him in any way, shape or form they'll pay dearly for it
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at home. those are the factors that have been at work in the senate during the entire trump presidency. >> there's a group that announced they would not convict trump. ted cruz, josh hawley. but what about mitch mcconnell. a man you've known for a long time and worked with. he left open the possibility he would vote to convict. do you think he's taking seriously the process and do you take seriously the idea that he perhaps can bring others along with him and vote to convict former president trump? >> there was a moment when they presented the statements and the facts of those in the trump administration who resigned because of january 6th prematurely before the end of trump's presidency. one of the photos was of elaine chao who served as our secretary of transportation, the spouse of senator mcconnell. i'm sure he saw that and i'm
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sure he's thinking about that. i have no idea how he'll come down on this. she made it clear she couldn't continue with this president after what happened on january 6th. >> senator, based on what republicans have said over the past week or so, they're likely going to justify their votes against impeachment based on two arguments. one procedural, that this is an unconstitutional process. what say you to that? >> i think congressman raskin voted on that directly. we voted on that procedural question. joe, you've been in a courtroom. you know what happens. you file your early moogs to dismiss, whatever they happen to be. the court doesn't agree with you, you go on to trial. ultimately a decision has to be made on the evidence. the procedural question was voted on, 56-44. the senate said that the fact that donald trump is not currently in office does not bar
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this impeachment proceeding. so i would hope that the republican senators would acknowledge the obvious. they need to judge this case on the facts and the law and not hide behind some procedural opportunity they missed. >> so the other argument is going to be that what donald trump was doing is what every politician does. at the rally he was giving a political speech. in the past i've said to people at campaign events, we have to fight like hell to do this. we've got to be strong. our voices must be heard. we must let them know, blah, blah, blah. i've said it. i'm sure you've said things like that through your career. every politician has said that. so when republicans argue that donald trump said what most politicians said throughout their career, what say you to that? >> i'm sure we'll see
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high-flying rhetoric videos where we have said that to a crowd, but i have never known anyone elsewhere president of the united states and commander in chief speaking to thousands of people, you turn them loose to loot, vandalize, engage in violence and even murder. for goodness sakes this is way beyond the ordinary political rally. this was a deadly mission by the president and sadly he, cuted it. then, as it was under way, he did nothing. he sat in the white house, as they say, delighted with the results, as our capitol policemen were being beaten and one was sadly murdered in this situation along with a d.c. policeman and others who suffered grievous injuries. >> all right. senator dick durbin, thank you very much. we appreciate your time. coming up next, why an impeachment minefield awaits the 2024 republican field and some developing news going to break. russia says it's ready to cut
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ties with the european union if the bloc hits the kremlin with economic sanctions following the arrest of opposition leader alexei alexei navalny. and there's a new piece about julia navalny, his wife who has become a force to be reckoned with in the challenge to vladimir putin. she says i am not afraid. even though she like thousands of others were arrested during a recent demonstration, many are wondering if she may be the one to step into the leadership roll left empty during her husband's incarceration. the piece is by natalie johnson, you can read it at knowyourvalue.com. we'll be back in a moment with richard haass and i'll be asking him why he left the republican party.
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♪♪ really a lot of breaking news this morning. we just had breaking news from moscow about putin's possible split with the eu. this one, dateline -- sorry, coleman, alabama. i don't know if you've seen this headline or not. but a teen was reunited with his pet rooster lost at an alabama cracker barrel after a civil war
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re-enactment. this headline from al.com, this is what we call in the south, gracious plenty. they had me at lost rooster and civil war re-enactment. you throw in the fact it was lost at a cracker he's lost in r rel, the rooster's name is pete. he's very civil, when tin cannons blaring in the background, the headline really says it all. a teen was reunited with his pet rooster lost at an alabama cracker barrel after a civil war reenactment. two words, willie, roll tide, just roll tide. >> well, that could be two other words, were eagle, we don't know where he stands. how many times have we seen that story. again and again. it feels like you're on a treadmill sometimes, where every
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day you're reporting on a young man who returned from a civil war reenactment and lost his rooster in a parking lot at cracker barrel. disgraceful underrated in the north, it's fantastic. yes. >> first of all, yes, let's talk about cracker barrel, disgracefully underrated in the north, you could say the same about crystal. yankees don't understand crystal. i'm not going to even ask how many crystal burgers you had after midnight in nashville, tennessee over four years. >> those sacks, yeah. >> i'd get 20 of them. they're amazing. but yeah, cracker barrel, one of the great restaurant chains of all time. i understand, in san francisco, you know, they got, you know, they got the french laundry thing. but, you know, you want to bait that trap with cracker barrel, you're going to get me every time. i mean, it's just -- it's just amazing. but you are right, this story
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will be -- i mean, i feel like bill murray in groundhog day, this is an age old tale. right? >> well, it's exhausting, frankly, and it can be repetitive. but it's our job to report the news and again if a young man returning from a civil war reenactment loses his pet rooster in a cracker barrel, we'll be here to report this to you every morning. >> our next guest had that happen to him when he was 17 years old. richard haas. >> he loves that chicken fried steak, and who wouldn't at cracker barrel. director of policy studies at stanford university, research fellow at the hoover institution, and the president of the council on foreign
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relations, richard haas, chicken fried steak, or -- >> this was really mother's milk sort of stuff, we came of age with it. >> so we'll put the cracker barrel menu to the side for just a moment. i want to let you and joe get into this. you're now -- you've joined joe in leaving the republican party. i understand you did it some time ago but just made it public the other day. why did you leave the party where you've served for a couple of generations? >> look, it wasn't easy. i became a republican in 1980. worked for ronald reagan, both presidents bush, and i did it for reasons -- they supported a strong, sensible, i thought, american role in the world for the most part, modest government role in the economy. they believed in the rule of law, and principle. believed in an immigration policy that attracted and retained the most talented people in the world. that's not this republican
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party. and over the last year or so i came to the conclusion that i didn't see a way back, willie. it was difficult for me to come to that point, i have had sad to come to the point but i just didn't think the party could rediscover those roots and i decided to go public with it now just given recent events, january 6th. it was a private decision but i thought the time had come to be public because i was hoping other people might follow suit and just maybe, maybe some people on the hole -- on the hill casting this historic vote might realize there's self-interest. principle and the rest is obvious here. donald trump ought to be found -- ought to be convicted. but to the extent that the republicans in the senate are being motivated by calculation, i was thinking maybe just maybe if enough republicans made it clear, this is not the party we can support, we can't support people who are voting to acquit, then maybe it would make a difference. >> you know, lonnie, there are a
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lot of people, we talked to ann applebaum earlier this morning who described herself in the book as a thatcherite, following ronald reagan, there are people like myself and richard haas who don't have a party who at this time obviously are against what donald trump did over the past four years. but we also look at a $2 trillion covid relief bill that we -- that richard and i both think is bloated, and is not targeted enough at a time when the ceo is suggesting that our annual -- that our national debt is going to be bigger than our economy. and also that we're going to grow at 3.75%. i bring those issues up only to say, where do people like richard and myself and millions of other former republicans go? >> well, you know, there has to
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be a place for a vibrant center right conversation in this country. policy alternatives. joe, you've identified one area where i think there is a yearning amongst many americans to have a serious conversation, debt and deficit. what do we need to get this economy going, do we need to spend $2 trillion. that's a very real question, there are a host of other questions as well, for example, what is a clear eyed view, but a constructive one toward china look like, there's another area where i think you could find a center right and probably center left consensus, there are a whole host of issues on which i think it is critically important for us to be able to have a vibrant center right conservative movement that stands for matters of principle. i think that is hugely important. i think the question is, can that happen within the context of the republican party? or does it have to be some kind of new conversation? but i do think that our politics just won't work, joe, unless there is a very real conversation and people who are willing to stand up on principle
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and willing to say, along, there are policy alternatives here. i think, you know, at least half of americans feel that there has to be that robust discussion. >> lonnie, as you know, people who want to be president, at least want to be the nominee in the republican party first are going to have to start twisting themselves in knots in the way they talk about donald trump. just this morning former u.n. ambassador nikki haley, who served, of course, alongside president trump, often praised president trump, told politico's chief correspondent tim alberta this. "i don't think he's going to be in the picture, speaking of trump, she said matter of factually, i don't think he can, he's fallen so far, we need to acknowledge he let us down. she continued. he went down a path he shouldn't have, and we shouldn't have followed him and we shouldn't have listened to him and we can't let that ever happen again." as we pointed out earlier, lonnie, it was three weeks ago she was on fox news, ambassador haley, and saying we have to move on, give this guy a break,
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talking about donald trump and impeachment. how do republicans position themselves with trump still on the stage, or at least lurking somewhere around the corner? >> well, i think you're going to see, willie, a lot of different republicans try to do this in their own way. some will take the approach that ambassador haley has taken, which obviously is to begin to draw that distance, begin to say that there isn't a future for donald trump, you know, really take it directly at republican voters and say here are the ways in which, you know, you were misled. ways in which you weren't told the truth. that's one approach. you're going to have others in the senate now who have a much more difficult balancing act. some certainly are going to go the way of being fully supportive of trump, embracing him, believing he will continue to have a future in the conservative movement, people like ted cruz, you're going to have others that will draw a finer line, maybe people like senator cotton who are going to try and say, look, you've got trump and that part of the movement, but there's also an effort to reinvigorate this
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conservatism i talk about and then there are others who are going to have to draw a strict line against it. people like ben sasse. it will be interesting, the senate vote and how senate republicans react, that's something over the next couple days that will be an interesting story line for sure. >> richard, what's your reaction to foreign minister lavrov that russia is considering breaking ties with the eu? >> i take this as a threat. look, the russians don't like being on the defensive with the navalny situation getting sanctioned, they think the eu is divided, potentially weak. this is lavrov being something of a bully, pushing back hard. they also think they've got leverage over the europeans given energy issues. we'll see how this plays out but i think the russians are moving in a direction where once again you have a united states that believes in principles of human rights. i think there's a possibility here, joe, for a renewed u.s. eu approach towards russia and that
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would be a welcome development. >> all right, richard haas, and lonnie chen, thank you both very much. that does it for us this morning and for this week, we'll see you back here on monday morning. for now msnbc's special coverage of the second impeachment trial of donald trump picks up right now. this is msnbc's special coverage of donald trump's second impeachment trial. and as we come on the air new details on the former president's defense team about to get their turn to make their case. with trump attorney david schoen saying their entire presentation could start and end in less than four hours and even that may not be set in stone. nbc news that has learned trump's attorneys were still working on their arguments, even as late as last night, and getting some advice from republican senators, kicking around legal strategy with some of donald trump's biggest defenders, lindsey graham, ted cruz, mike lee. on the oid

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