tv Morning Joe MSNBC February 15, 2021 3:00am-6:00am PST
but the reality here is president trump lost re-election. republicans lost control of the senate. republicans no longer hold the house. they have lost everything that republicans warned about donald trump when he became the nominee, it happened. it was worse than we ever imagined at the company toll. now it's on all of us to try to rebuild and change this attitude of zones that has come into our politics. thank you for getting up "way too early" with us this monday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now >> after he's out of office, you go and arrest him. so there is no opportunity where the president of the united states can run rampant january to the end of his term and go away scot-free. the department of justice does know what to do with such people. >> president trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office as an
ordinary citizen. unless the stat chute of limitations is run, he is still liable for everything he did while in office. he didn't get away with anything yet. we have a criminal justice system in this country. we have civil litigation. and former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either one. good morning. welcome to "morning joe". senate minority leader mitch mcconnell with the not so subtle suggestion there are other paths to hold president trump accountable. something one of president trump's lawyers pointed out during the trial. we will point out what the charges could be. the senate did acquit president trump for the second time this weekend. 57-43 verdict that was 10 votes short of the 67 two-thirds majority needed to convict. seven republicans did vote to convict.
we will dig into what the future holds for those seven republicans who are already feeling heat from a republican party still grappling with whether donald trump will be its leader. and what the end of the impeachment trial means for president trump's ambitious morning. mitch mcconnell, after this vote, suggesting the former president still may face judgment in the courts. we'll get to that. it is monday, february 15th, presidents' day. joe and mika have the modern off. we have mr. jonathan lemire, eddie glaude jr., host of "way too early" kasie hunt, historian jon meacham. he occasionally unofficially advises president biden. and founder of the the bulwark author of "how the right lost its mind" charlie sykes. good morning to you all.
a very busy morning to you today. charlie, there et me begin with you. you have been talking and thinking about this a lot, not just the last couple of weeks, but the last four or five years, what donald trump has done in the republican party, what he means for the future of the republican party. you called the vote a defining vote for the party. what did those senators tell you on saturday? . >> well, first of all, mad respect for the seven that voted to convict. but you think about the votes that republican had taken. i think it's 17-240 to say they're okay with what happened january 6th. look, it is donald trump's party but worse. you think about the last four years and republican party's acquiescence, looking the other way for the racism, xenophobia, the lies, mockery of the disabled, women and all of that. but now they have decided they are going to look the other way to sedition, violence,
anti-democratic authoritarianism. and i think this party is -- you know, i think the impeachment damaged both donald trump and the republican party but also changed donald trump. i'm sorry. it changed the republican party. the republican party now has a large constituency of extremists, including extremists who are violent. we talked a lot about cowardly republicans. one of the reasons they are cowardly pause fear is a major factor now in right-wing politics and republican politics. and i don't think that's going to go away. i think many of the right-wing extremists who invaded the capitol are going to feel emboldened and i think you will see the republican party continue to unfortunately apiece those factions. it is donald trump's party, which is not new. it is in some ways worse. >> jon meacham, seven
republicans voted to convict. richard burr today will face censure in his home state of north carolina. so of course there is blowback on these votes. back home from donald trump himself, from members of the maga movement saying you crossed this president, showing him still out of office there will be a price for stepping out of line with the former one-term, twice impeached president. . >> yeah. if i were senator burr, i would embrace that. sometimes we talk about obituary management. those seven folks just helped their obituaries. i think about this a lot. we're in the part in the actuarial cycle where folks in watergate are moving on. it is interesting to see what is
it that you're remembered for. i'm sure senator burr is a lovely man and has done a lot for north carolina and america. i promise you the thing that looms largest is he decided we're a constitutional republic not a cultive personality. in many ways, that's what that vote was about. the other interesting thing, and i hesitate to offer any advice to you because you haven't done well enough in your life and career. but you had an interesting slip of the tongue at the top of the hour. you said we wonder what this will mean for president trump's ambitious agenda. and that is a sign of the ubiquitous of the former president of the united states. and i'm not arguing therefore we move on. one of the great mistakes we made in this country historically is in the aftermath of the civil war, during reconstruction, we did not hold
insurrectionists, rebels, accountable for what they did. on this presidents' day, one of the things to think about is we to have a different president. and 81 million americans made what i would argue is the right choice in november. and 57 united states senators, not enough, but 57 united states senators said that this man was -- the former president was guilty of inciting insurrection against his own government. and that 57-43 number, while not determine active in a constitutional sense, is probably not that far off from where the country at large is about the republican party. so this is charlie's bailiwick, not mine. if i were a republican right now stkpeufs thinking not in 10-minute terms, which is what they are doing, but 10-year
terms, i would feel an existential crisis >> well, senate minority leader mitch mcconnell had a strange moment when he voted to acquit and then gave a speech for all the ways he in cited an election. he said, we have no power to convict and disqualify a former officeholder who is now a private citizen. here is how he couched that in the floor speech. >> the people who stormed this building believed they were acting on the wishes and instructions of their president. and having that belief was a foreseeable consequence of the growing crescendo of false statements, conspiracy theories, and reckless hyperbole, which the president kept shouting into the largest megaphone on planet
earth. there's no question, none, that president trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. no question bit. . >> january 6th was a disgrace. american citizens attacked their own government. they used terrorism to try to stop a specific piece of domestic business they did not like. president trump is still liable for everything he did while in office as an ordinary citizen. he didn't get away with anything yet. . >> mcconnell's speech, he got a load off his chest. but unfortunately he put a load on the back of republicans. that speech you will see in 2022 campaigns. i would imagine if you're a republican running in arizona,
new hampshire, georgia, where we have a chance to take back the senate, they may be playing senator mcconnell's speech and ask you about it as a candidate. and i imagine if you're an incumbent republican, people will be asking will you support senator mcconnell in the future. i like him. he worked well with president trump. i think his speech is an outlier regarding how republicans feel about this. . >> kasie, as you know, mcconnell flirted with the idea that he was open to voting for conviction the last several weeks. he leaked to various press outlets. was there really ever a chance that mitch mcconnell, minority leader of the republican party, was going to vote to convict president trump? . >> willie, i actually do think that there was. i think the challenge and the problem was that there weren't enough others in his conference that made clear to him that they would be willing to follow him town that road. i think it's possible if he had made the case behind the scenes
we could have gotten to 17 republicans. but that is still well short of half of the 50-member republican conference. if that's how mcconnell had voted, he would have essentially not been able to remain the leader in his conference. spe decided he actually did want to continue in that role. again, i'm just trying to explain to everyone what the thinking is. mitch mcconnell is all about power politics. so his vote was about retaining his power inside his conference, inside the senate. his speech was trying to get powerback for republicans across the board. because he just wants to win in 2022. he knows he can't do that in suburbs in swing states if he embraces donald trump and what happened. they cannot embrace this violent rhetoric.
while donald trump brought new people in for republicans, that group is still a relative minority. there would have been millions of people who would have voted for whoever the republican nominee was, whether jeb bush or marco rubio. it is disingenuous when. the people that stormed the capitol are a hard-core version of president trump's supporters. many of them may not go to vote for everybody except donald trump. mitch mcconnell is looking at this saying, hey, i want to govern again. i want people to trust us to make policy again. we can't do that without absolutely con definitelying former president trump and what happened january 6th. i think it's so important just to realize that we have often -- we often cover republicans versus democrats. that idea has come under criticism the last four years.
chuck schumer could have given most of the speech that mcconnell gave. nancy pelosi could have given most of the speech that mcconnell gave. people who are serious about trying to govern the country and who want to think about it in the terms that jon meacham is doing, 10-year historical terms, their own obituaies some day, it is not american. we don't have to minutes word. there are republicans and democrats who believe that to be true. . >> so, eddie, if you talked to impeachment managers, we will talk to madeline dean later on this show. over the weekend they will tell you, we made our case. even some republicans who voted to convict said the house managers made a good case. they said they couldn't vote on technicalities. there were of course a group of republicans who this her minds made up well before this trial ever began. the case was made.
the timeline was built showing insurrection, and republicans couldn't bring themselves to vote to convict. >> absolutely, willie. i understand what case is saying here, there are republicans who hold that view. some have already decided they are not going to run again, so the risk was minimal in some ways. i think one of the things we have to say is there was a collision of two different americas that was evident in this trial. and that it wasn't about the facts. it wasn't about guilt or innocence. at least to me it felt about the defense of a particular way of life alongside of deep-seeded political interests. it becomes a deadly mix when it comes to the safety and security of our democracy. this collision of two different
americas is something that president biden will have to address. how do we talk about the underlying values that kept these two merck's? how do we begin to bridge? what we saw and what i'm hearing out of the mouth of lindsey graham are people who hold a different view of what this country should be. and the trial reflected that. you know what it reminded me of, willie, the trials in the context of the 1960s in the south where there was no concern about guilty, no concern about the facts. only a defense of a way of life. that's what i felt. that's what i saw. we have to figure out how we're going to address it. . >> yeah. the facts were undeniable. they lived through them. they were in fact, witnesses to the crime. jonathan lemire, the white house, the press shop has taken the pains to change the focus,
the covid bill. president biden did way in on the acquittal saying in a statement in part, quote, the bans of the charge is not in dispute. even those opposed to the conviction, like senate minority leader mcconnell, believe donald trump was guilty of a disgraceful dare reubgz of tattoo and practically approximate morally responsible for provoking the violence unleashed on the capitol. it has reminded us democracy is fragile, that it we must be ever vigilant. violence and extremism has no place in america. and that each of us has a duty and responsibility as americans, and especially as leaders, to defend the truth and to defeat the lies. it feels like today begins the biden administration. the cloud that hovered over the first couple weeks of his term
has gone. he can turn the corner and work on covid-19 relief. >> willie, joe biden framed his entire candidacy as a rebuke to donald trump. they were careful throughout his campaign not to just react to everything trump did. they had a solid message. they wanted to return to normalcy. we have seen the same approach during this trial. biden made a point of saying he was not watching it live. of course he was briefed. he saw highlights. but he wanted to focus on the business of governing. as much as he and his staff could say they could do two things at once. the trial could happen, but yet the white house could still respond to this pandemic. they of course acknowledged privately this was a distraction. it looked like democrats were going to have witnesses, potentially extending the trial days, if not weeks, where there
was real concern, that this could continue to linger. it would slow things down. to get the covid relief done by mid-march. they didn't call of to the senate. and a teal -- deal was struck. the trial ended on saturday anyway. you're right, today the biden camp believes they can sort of start anew. his official official trips. a townhall tomorrow. a visit to pfizer plant later this week, first virtual international summit this week. and he also looking to move forward without everything being about donald trump. as much as biden has wanted bipartisan ship, the republicans don't seem like they are playing ball. the vote reinforces how bitterly divided this country is. sure, seven republicans voted to convict president trump. by far the most any a president
has faced from members of his own party in a conviction vote. at the same time, let's remember donald trump said he felt that he could shoot someone on 5th avenue and his followers would stay with him. democrats now believe, they charged his words with leading to the deaths of five people. not one on 5th avenue but one in the capitol. republicans, for the most part, stayed with him, and are already sounding words like they are not going to break with donald trump any time soon and therefore potentially not help out this white house. so that's a concern joe biden still has. the fever has not broken, they don't believe. >> there's clearly no break with president trump after this impeachment vote. everybody stay right there. we'll take a quick break. still ahead, would calling witnesses have changed the outcome of the trial? we'll hear how the house managers defended their decision not to press that issue. plus, the fight against covid and the latest guidelines from the cdc on how to safely reopen
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why did you vote to acquit donald trump? >> because everyone knows you cannot impeach a former president. that's why we should have impeached him before back when i said we couldn't. >> well, that logic pretzels out. but what do you really think of trump? >> i think he's guilty of hell. and the worst person i ever met, and i hope every city, county and state locks him up. oh, god. that felt good. i've been holding that inside my neck for four years. i've got cracker crumbs in here. >> "saturday night live" with its take on mitch mcconnell after the vote on saturday.
senator hreubd say graham said republicans cannot take back congress in 2022 without the help of former president trump. senator bill cassidy of louisiana, who voted to convict, disagrees. here's what both said yesterday. . >> he was grateful to his lawyers. he appreciated the help that all of us provided. you know, he's ready to move on. he's excited about 's exci022. i said, mr. president, this maga movement needs to continue. we need to unite the party. trump plus is the way to come back in 2022. he's mad at folks, and i understand that. . >> will he remain a force in the republican party? what does that mean for the republican party? >> the republican party is more than just one person. >> charlie sykes, what an
interesting dichotomy here inside the party. republicans made clear which side they are with that vote on saturday. only seven of them voting to convict donald trump. bill cassidy stepping out and voting guilty and saying we don't need donald trump as much as some of these other senators are telling you we do. what do you think? >> first of all, lindsey graham is determined to become a punch line in american history, isn't he? look, this is going to be the defining face of the republican party going forward. i think cassidy is right. when you get into the general election, if this party becomes more trump yann, they will lose the constituencies that lost control of the house and senate. they will continue to seek an exodus of moderate republicans. they will be losing in the suburbs. they will continue to lose women, college educated. and i think that you're going to
see donald trump engage in a revenge tour that is going to make the split in the republican party even worse. i think mitch mcconnell's speech was extraordinarily. it was clearly two-faced, hypocritical. but he stepped up and got some things off his chest. the one thing he made very clear, donald trump may have been acquitted but he was not exonerated. he is still deeply damaged. here's the question. you have the republicans that hid be heaped a technicality. almost none with exception to lindsey graham, defended donald trump or praised donald trump. he's damaged goods. it will be somewhat difficult for them. they will be able to do it because this is who they are. we think he is good for the country. maybe we should have four more years. so this is going to be an interesting test for this political party here. there is a gap between the institutional republican party led by mitch mcconnell, which has decided to move on from
trump, and the base, which for the moment i think is sticking with donald trump. 2022 is going to be a republican civil war. and i think they will have a problem with the general elections if they continue down this path >> listening to lindsey graham the last couple of weeks, you go back to the night of january 6th, the night of the attack on the capitol when he pounded the rostrum and said count me out. where do you see this going, though? where is this divide? it was highlighted in a interview with nikki haley, tim alberta where she made a point of saying we have to move on. we shouldn't have followed president trump down the big lie of the election. yet she also in that article, over the course of a number of interviews, praised president trump and praised him previously. in fact, a couple of weeks ago said we need to move on from what happened january 6th. this is the tension from people who want to run, people who
worry about him running, people who think they need his support if they want to hold or win a new office. how does that play out with donald trump in the background? >> yeah. no, you lay it out exactly right. looking at senator graham and the shift from the night of the 6th to where he is now reminds me of this bit in tom sawyer where tom sawyer said an evangelist came to town was so good that even hucf finn was saved until tuesday. when the holding and keeping of power is the organizing principle, then everything else becomes a means to that end. and that's where human nature tends to be. and it is very much where
this -- i hadn't heard this phrase before, but the trump plus idea, which senator graham said. if that's the principle, then it's not in a politically irrational thing to do what the republicans who are standing by trump to do. it is in fact, politically rational. the difference is, and this is what is interesting for all of us, it may be politically rational but it is constitutionally derelict. and i'm going to be careful how i use this word. morally derelict. the root of the word moral is not about right and wrong. it's about custom, the way we conduct ourselves. i'm not wagging my finger. when fdr said preimminently the presidency is a place of moral leadership, he meant you set a certain tone and you create an arena in which certain behaviors
are acceptable and certain behaviors are not. it does not mean there is all agreement. this is not about cancel culture. this isn't about any of that. it is about the republican, lower case r, arena, in which we debate our differences. and what the republicans with trump have decided, this is not a partisan point but a clinical one, he is key to their holding power. and therefore it doesn't matter what he does. because without him and his approval, they will not maintain their place in the temporal political order. and that's become their overarching goal. and i don't think we have to overthink this. what i do think is important is to remember that there is a vast part of the country that
adjudicated this in november. and it's a sign of trump's warping capacity for the country that we tend to forget that joe biden won the presidency. with a margin higher than harry traoupl, higher than john kennedy, higher than either of bill clinton's. since it's presidents' day we will have a full-on dork fest, which is redundant because i'm talking, we have to disen thrall ourselves. it's hard. it's hard. we're doing it right now. and we should. because if you don't talk about an illness, if you don't treat an illness, you can't fix it, right? you can't heal it.
but i would suggest to -- and i'm fascinated by, fascinated by of the 74 million americans who voted for trump, how many of those folks are unreachable. and how many of them in the privacy of the voting booth, because i don't want to tell a pollster -- they don't want to admit to all of us that maybe they were wrong and they're rethinking this. but what part of that 74 million are open to reason and evidence and open to changing their minds? and if it's 20 million, that's a pretty significant shift in american politics. >> he have huck finn, obituary
management on my bingo card. >> the statements by senators who voted to acquit made clear that he escaped conviction mainly perhaps only because he is no longer president. mr. trump's dishonest challenge to the 2020 election, even after multiple defeats in court, clearly broke those bounds and culminated in the january 6th riot. mr. trump may run again, but he won't win another national election. that's the view of the wall street journal editorial board. is that the view, kasie, of the senators, 43 who voted to acquit donald trump. don't they believe donald trump may always be there and may perhaps run again in 2024? . >> there's two questions here, willie. the editorial board of the wall street journal is asking whether donald trump could fr win a general election and become president of the united states again. it's likely that the vast
majority of the senators who voted either way believe that that's the case. and the suggestion by mcconnell that there may be criminal liability here and he will be held accountable, underscores that reality. that is different from what happens in primary elections. donald trump has incredible sway over the base voters, as charlie was talking about. and a lot of those people are the ones who vote in primaries. if that base and donald trump is choosing primary election candidates, that's a legitimate threat if you are a member of the senate who is up for re-election soon. it's part of why only one republican, lisa murkowski, who is up in 2022 for re-election, voted to convict president
trump. nobody up in 2022 voted for it because they are all up. he's going to have trouble running them against democrats. jonathan lemire, that's my question for you, after having covered donald trump for so long, what do you think the role is going to be that he is going to want to take in this? i realize he is folked on the idea of revenge. i have had some people suggest to me perhaps he doesn't have the attention span to focus on this and get it done in a way that is a serious threat to some of these republicans. >> it's not clear what the next chapter looks like for donald trump. first of all, he was uncharacteristically, for him, silenced and disciplined during the trial. they said you have the votes in the bag. anything you do could mess it
up. the lack of his twitter account made it easier to say to him, focus on your golf and don't worry about this. he grew anger towards his attorneys and these republicans who broke from him. he has been in a rage about republican officials who he feels defied him, in sufficiently loyal. there's talk of the president appearing before -- the former president appearing before cameras this week, having a media event down in florida. certainly a huge swath of the republican party is still loyal to him. but he has shown in the past an ability to drive fund-raising and has a huge bank of -- his email list is massive. he wanted to be relevant. whether he follows through or not remains unclear. there is more skepticism that he
would run again in 2024. eddie, let's chew over this. i wanted to get your sense of it. saturday was this microcosm, this example of this split. it seems like most of course are still going to be with him. lisa murkowski had a bring it on attitude. unique to her in alaska. but many republicans are still very afraid of him. what could republicans do to break free, to test the waters of trying to get away from donald trump. how do you think that will be received by the rank and file of republican voters. >> i'm not sure, jonathan. there seems to be there could be some actual attempts to address
the scale of the problems that the nation faces, that the republican party could actually join with the biden administration in a post partisan way to address the devastation of covid-19, to address the economic ills we face, to try to put the country, in some ways, on a better path. perhaps engaging in the actual governance of america, engaging and responding to the crises that ordinary everyday people are facing. perhaps that may do something to change folks's minds. but to shift from a trump naval gazing that he symbolizes something. he's not the substance of something but he symbolizes something. what is that? and how might we understand it apart from him? right. as my mother would say, i'm glad
to see the back of donald trump's head. but we see he still has some influence. what is the nature of what he symbolizes. it has everything to do i think with grievance, resentments and hatreds that aren't reducible to cult-like following. they could stand or stand beyond his political presence. so part of what i'm trying to wrap my mind around, even as i listen to my good friend jon meacham, what do we do with the stat feeling out there among 70 plus million folk who would choose, after four years of evidence, to support this fellow because he represents something, symbolizes something, other than they are mindless, cultish followers. . >> that's an amazing point, eddie. if you think about it, charlie sykes, put together what eddie is saying here and john is saying here about the 74 million
people who did vote for president trump, what they believed what he represents to him, with him out of office but still in the background, still threatening perhaps to run again in 2 4eu. what happens to the true die hard trump supporters. are they going out and voting. what does it look like with trump's in power in many ways but not technically in office. . >> we don't know jon's question has been haunting me. what percentage are completely unreachable. how do you have a conversation with somebody who won't acknowledge basic facts, who is basically so deep into the alternative reality world. i honestly don't know the answer to that. but it's not 74 million. one of the things that really strikes me is that the republican party has had so many easy off ramps from trumpism.
they could have taken an off-ramp after the election. the vote over the weekend was an incredibly easy off-ramp. the evidence was overwhelming of his built. but also it was just time to move on, as mitch mcconnell had to say. yet they haven't chosen to do that. and so i don't know where this is going. one of the easiest things the republicans could do in order to get their mojo back is to do what they have done all along, which is to be a reactionary party. to be the non-democratic party. to simply say we're in opposition, pretend they care about fiscal responsibility again. all of those things. this is the one thing that really animates the right. they are united is opposing liberal democratic policies. but the problem is now they are going to get caught up in this debate about trumpism. are they going to continue to embrace the nationalism, to rail against free trade.
is it going to be the anti immigration party? it's not clear because they could have stepped up and say we are the alternative to what is going on right now. but unfortunately they have this trumpian cloud over their head and they're not in a hurry to get rid of it. yeah. joe is not here this morning. i will channel him and remind everyone he lost the white house, the house and the senate and impeached twice. thank you. we didn't pick up teapot dome scandal on your bingo card. we will look for it tomorrow. coming up, the impeachment is over but the former president's legal problems are not. plus, the latest on the pandemic. scientists have said the british strain of the coronavirus is more contagious but is it also more deadly.
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because the world responds. i'm marcela and i put myself out there with godaddy. donald trump was acquitted in his impeachment trial, but he still faces legal threats. "the wall street journal" reports the manhattan d.a.'s office is zeroing in on the financial dealings of the former president's manhattan properties. they are examining loans he took out on several properties, including the trump tower in the financial district and a hotel and condominium building in columbus circle. the investigation is the latest in manhattan district attorney cyrus vance's probe into the trump organization's business dealings. there also could still be investigations in washington, d.c. into the capitol riot. and president trump could face criminal or civil charges there. in georgia, prosecutors are
investigating trump's efforts to pressure state election officials to overturn that state's vote. joining us now, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and msnbc legal analyst, joyce vance. it's good to see you. we heard this directly from mitch mcconnell. after he voted to acquit, he said, yes, i voted to acquit but i will leave it to the courts to this impeachment trial. if you are donald trump, where would you be looking first for your greatest exposure and threat? >> mitch mcconnell was quick to kick the can down the road to the justice department not realizing there were two purposes served in the impeachment and criminal justice system. but the former president faces a three-ring circus here. each of the districts poses eta
real threat to him in some cases in new york, there appear to be criminal prospects from the state and from the federal government. let's talk about georgia, willie. it seems tailor made for the president's conduct. of course it's on tape, which is something prosecutors like to have when they talk to juries. the charge would be something in the area of solicitation of the georgia secretary of state to engage in election fraud with the former president, who was very specific. he asked for precisely the number of votes that he would need to win the state of georgia to be found for him. so it's on tape. you play it to the jury. then what happens? the charge could be a misdemeanor or a felony, depending how it's charged. if it's a felony, the sentencing is one to three years. this would be a first-time offense, non-violent offense. so it would be up to the state court judge whether he would subject the former president to
prison or some kind of probation. but that looks like a very real prospect. one caveat, the evidence has to be developed in the course of an investigation. exculpatory evidence you don't expect turns up. this is not a fast process. you have to use a grand jury, subpoenas. it is not to say that prosecutors are moving slowly. but the process itself is not one designed for speed. we're not looking, i don't think, in something in the next 30 or 60 days. although some of the new york investigations look like they are further along. certainly the notorious southern district of new york case involving michael cohen, where the president is individual number 1. . >> and the president infamously asking to find 11,780 votes, one more vote needed to swing the election in his direction. in new york, there is always so
much swirling it is hard to sift it all. an investigation into the trump organization, real estate dealings, tax fraud. where is the biggest problem, as you see it, for former president trump in new york in his home city? >> sigh vance, has opened a can of worms. once you start investigating one area of the trump organization's work, you don't have to put on blinders. other instances of potential criminal conduct come to light, then the investigation follows the evidence. it doesn't just focus on the crime you identify at the outset. it looks like in manhattan, where they have been at this for a few years now, they have sunk their teeth into some variety of fraud. and this could be a real problem for the president because of the ability to get paper that backs up these sorts of allegations.
but no one should pretend the cases are easy. they almost always turn on willfulness or intent. that means prosecutors have to jump into the mind of a defendant and prove what they were doing is something they intended to do, that it wasn't simply a mistake or something that was done inadvertently. that you cheated on your taxes on purpose, not because you got the numbers wrong as a result of an accident. these cases are not straightforward. >> jonathan lemire, there is the case in washington, d.c. where the attorney general has signaled that office may look into the president's role into the attack on the capitol january 6th and do what the senate could not do, which is to go after president trump strongly there. >> and that's the one where donald trump and his associates have been most keenly worried about since he left office. we know in his final days as president, some of the half-hearted measures he took,
remember the videos he put out where he finally condemned the violence, they were done with one eye on trying to reduce his legal exposure that aides told him, white house counsel told him he could be held legally responsible for what happened at the capitol. joyce, let's just go there. walk us through the matter in washington, d.c. how likely do you think it is the president could face charges. how vulnerable is he? is this something that could materialize? what sort of penalty, judgment could he face? >> so i think it's extremely likely there will be an investigation. it's always tough to prejudge the results of an investigation. but as with the white collar sorts of charges in new york, again, if we're looking at something in the district of columbia, conspiracy to incite
insurrection, you have to deal with the state of mind issues and what the former president intended to do which, as you point out, jonathan, why he made all of these exculpatory statements after the fact when he realized he might have found himselves in the crosshairs of law enforcement. the most compelling piece of evidence about donald trump's state of mind is his reaction to the insurrection as it was unfolded. reports that he was delighted. his failure to take steps to stop it. when confronted by kevin mccarthy and told they were his supporters in the capitol, that he was the only person that could stop it, he didn't act in the moment. that's the sort of evidence when a jury hears it and the judge tells the them they can infer state of mind from someone's reactions to events could be very compelling. but, again, i'm going to hedge my bets. because prosecutors have the obligation of proving a crime
beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. and the federal principles of prosecution tell prosecutors not to indict unless they have sufficient evidence, that means evidence admissible in court. and it has to be sufficient evidence to obtain a kweupbgz and also to sustain it on appeal. that means proof beyond a reasonable doubt that is something that really can't be subject to a different interpretation that's exculpatory to the president. so, look, i'm bullish on this case. i have to be honest and say that if i was involved in the investigation, i'd be champing at the bit. there's a lot of good evidence. but it's far from a sure thing. proven intent is tough. . >> a little dose of reality. you would have a jury at least that had not pledged their allegiance to the defense. great analysis as always. good to see you. >> still ahead on "morning joe", we will talk to mad lean dean on
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like so many other men living in florida, donald trump has again escaped from justice. this has to be the dumbest trial i have ever seen. the jurors deciding the case were the ones attacked by the defendant. the trial took place at the scene of the crime. right after the trial ended, one of the jurors who voted to acquit trump ran out and said someone has to prosecute this guy, he did it, this man belongs in jail. are you going to impeach a president for everything, don't you think sending a mob to kill the vice president. i feel bad for pence. 43 of his friends are lying, come on, mike, they only tried to hang you. stop being a drama queen.
a live picture at 7:00 in the morning on presidents' day, february 15th. the ap's jonathan lemire, princeton eddie glaude jr. and national affairs analyst, host of show time's the circus and the hell and high water podcast from the recount, john heilman, pulitzer prize winning author doris concerns goodwin, bulwark's tim miller, previously served as communications director for jeb bush and spokesman for the republican national committee. and adrian el rod, recently served on president trump's kpwaeupbs and inaugural committee. joe and mika have the morning off. a lot to sift through. john heilman, let's start with you. any surprises for you in that vote on saturday?
some are facing censure back home by republican parties. what do you make of what we saw on saturday? >> hey, willie, you know, i think we could go through and make the case that rich burr's vote was the surprise. i sort of had the feeling, and i think i said on the show, there would be a couple of republicans who would vote to convict who we didn't necessarily expect. i think the number overall ended up obviously a historically bipartisan impeachment, the most bipartisan in history. yet not anything close to the number you would have needed to convict. we were all waiting on mitch mcconnell. i think the biggest surprise of the day was not that mcconnell voted to acquit but was the fact that mcconnell voted to acquit and went out and gave that rather extraordinarily cynical speech immediately thereafter. and, you know, i know you guys talked about the balancing act,
the politics of that. but it is -- it was the most stunning thing of the day in some respects, seeing mitch mcconnell, really you could see the wheels turning in mitch mcconnell's head all the time, trying to calculate it at all times what is the way in which he thinks is the best path back to power for himself and for senate republicans. and that's how he played it out. he tried to play both sides of the issue. whether that will end up working for him and senate republicans in the long run, i don't know. joe is not here this morning. but, you know, his conclusion at the end of this all on saturday was this is really -- may mark the end of the republican party. i think this is a good case it could be true. it requires a little more elaboration than we have time for in this particular moment. >> yeah. defining moment at the very east. let's look at what some of the several republicans who voted to convict donald trump.
ben sasse wrote, if we were talking about a democratic president, most republicans and democrats would simply swipe sides. tribalism is a hell of a drug, but our oath to the institution means we're constrained to the facts. senator romney said, president trump also violated his oath of office by failing to protect the capitol, the vice president and others in the capitol. each and every one of these conclusions compels me to support conviction. senator lisa murkowski of alaska, who is up for re-election next year, the nation's elected leader, the commander in chief of our armed forces swore an oath to defend america and all that we hold sacred. he failed to up hold that oath. senator collins of maine said, abuse of power and betrayal of his oath by president trump meet the constitutional standards of high crimes and misdemeanors. and for those reasons i voted to
convict donald j. trump. senator pat toomey said this. unfortunately his behavior after the election betrayed the confidence millions of us placed in him. his betrayal of the constitution and his oath of office required conviction. and here is republican bill cassidy of louisiana. >> our constitution and our country is more important than any one person. i voted to convict president trump because he is guilty. >> right after cassidy's vote, the executive committee of the republican party of louisiana unanimously voted to censure senator cassidy. the louisiana house republican caucus chair tweeting at cassidy prying in part, you are part of the problem with d.c. don't expect a warm welcome when you come home to louisiana. here's how senator cassidy responded to that. >> i'm attempting to hold president trump accountable. and that is the trust i have
from the people that elected me. and i am very confident that as time passes, people will move to that position. >> and senator richard burr of north carolina explained his vote to convict by saying this, quote, by what he did and by what he did not do, president trump violated his oath of office to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the united states. north carolina's state republican party committee will hold an emergency meeting tonight to vote on censuring senator burr. here's what senator lindsey graham of south carolina had to say about burr's vote. >> north carolina, the biggest winner i think of this hole impeachment trial, is laura trump. my dear friend richard burr, just made laura trump almost the certain nominee to replace him if she runs. and i will certainly be behind her because i think she represented the future of the republican party.
>> so tim miller, richard burr on his way out, announced he's retiring next year anyway. lindsey graham going on tv and saying that makes room for another trump, lara trump, wife of eric trump, president trump's daughter-in-law. just take in some of what you heard there. seven republicans came out and voted to convict. most just won re-election or are retiring. bill said i voted guilty because donald trump is guilty. i listened to the events, i lived through the events of the day. i know what happened. >> nothing gets your blood pressure than hearing lindsey graham talking about lara trump for being the face of the republican party. i think that is the significant result of that set of comments that you just played. i think the republican party
decided this was going to be donald trump's party. they had a chance to put a stake through his heart over the weekend. lindsey graham, who i have sat in private with, and heilman, while he called donald trump's worst names in the book, has decided that he wants trump to be in charge of this party. and i think that's a baffling decision. it's a decision they have made that is purely out of cynical politics. that was the most telling quotes. bill cassidy i think did make a courageous decision and deserves praise. if you look at louisiana, the statement was exactly right. he is not going to get a warm welcome down there. and i remember being in the building when donald trump walked in the stadium. he has very big support down there in louisiana. people who were booing the president, including me, was not getting a warm welcome.
bill cassidy will potentially have physical threats to him. it was refreshing to hear somebody see the results. one final nitpick of those list of statements. ben sasse claiming this is a both sides thing is a total misread. there is no equivalent on the democratic side. there is no militant wing of democrats holding joe biden flags and racist flags that are interested in ripping away the rights and the dignity and the democratic vote of people on the other side. the democrats have their problems, sure. but there is no equivalent of this. this idea that had there been a democratic mob charging the capital, trying a coup that the democrats would have all supported except for six or seven is preposterous. it's what ben sasse says to make himself feel better. >> ben sasse also back in
nebraska facing censure votes twice in his home state. he just won his election. so he is safe for a while. extraordinary, is it not, as you look over the scope of history that a vote based on the evidence that all of us saw, on a day that all the senators experienced. everyone was a victim and witness to a crime that took place. they were exactly what happened, why it happened. it was laid out for them in plain terms by the house managers that they would not vote to convict perhaps in part at least because they didn't want to face some of the wrath from their voters and state parties back home. . >> well you know, willie, i think how the voters will respond is not yet finished. yes, the senate vote is finished. what happens in the days and months ahead. lincoln used to talk about that all the time. he said it was everything with public sentiment.
anything was possible. without it, nothing is possible. i'm not sure. there is still some optimism in me. people who felt what happened that the case was powerfully attacked may well indeed begin to change their feelings. it is not overnight thing, a public opinion. that whole attack went against the ideals of the country. there was something right or wrong about it. if that feeling sets in, other people in louisiana may come forward and support him. this is a battle. it's not just ended by the republican party censuring. there are people in the states that can be organized to do that. a lot of other senators should be asked, how do you feel about the merits of the situation with trump? maybe many of them will be willing to tell the truth that they felt on the merits it was pressed and they would have voted for it without their jurisdictional fig leaf. and the business community taking a lead after
charlottesville, after black lives matter. it provided voting venues for people. it has a lot of customers. they sort of popped into the area where the government has not been able to deal. and maybe they will be able to deal something they have held accountable for campaign contributions for those who didn't certify the election. i think public sentiment is still being formed. i think way back to 1856. somehow he was bled into unconsciousness, it brought livery home to the north. it had been in the south before that. that began the collapse of the whig party. the great change in consciousness that took place after the beating at selma, alabama, during the civil rights struggle for voting rights changed the sentiment in the country. when that sentiment begins to change, there is a real power. i think we have to say that's the battle we're fighting now and not just assume because the
people are censured, there is not another group of people that can be mobilized organizing. that's the necessity. the case was made for history. as a historian, i can see 50 years from now, that is how they will say it. the timeline. they did it. it will be the first draft of history for sure. . >> you're right, mitch mcconnell in his speech after the vote to acquit, he began to make that case, that draft of history, saying this was not some great exoneration of donald trump, despite the fact that he voted to acquit, but they didn't believe they had jurisdiction. there are all kinds of problems with that argument as well. adrienne, you worked of course on the biden campaign, the inauguration as well. you know a lot of players around the white house. what is your sense of how they're feeling today? obviously they would have
preferred donald trump were convicted, a vote that would bar him from running from federal office again. is there a sense that since the impeachment cloud has been lifted the stage belongs to them and they can focus on covid relief? . >> yeah, that's right, willie. all of us pwaof preferred a different outcome. kudos to bill cassidy for just coming right out there and saying that donald trump was guilty. democrats trying to blame his vote and the decision that was made on parity on democrats and republicans is just, you know, ludicrous. and i think nobody believes that. and they are trying to have it both ways. going back to the white house, they've got a lot of work on their plate. they made it very clear that they are focusing on the work on the american people, not focusing on the impeachment.
you heard nary a comment from the white house on impeachment. they are getting vaccinations out, their goal by this summer. getting this rescue package passed, supported by 90% of the american people, many of whom are republicans, by the way. that's where their focus is. that's where it should be. you know, look, joe biden spent almost 40 years in the senate. he worked with republicans and democrats to get a lot of legislation passed when he was there. i think he would like to see this get back to a time where we can get some bipartisan work done. based on what we saw last week and this weekend, i don't see that happening. you know, i'm hoping we can get to a better place. i think mitch mcconnell had a real chance, a real opportunity to turn the table and get back to an era where republicans are putting their country first, the safety of americans first. we did not see that last week. and i think it's a clear sign
that donald trump is still holding the run party hostage for the foreseeable future. >> there was some hope because of long relationships in the senate and time in the senate that joe biden might be able to glad hand his way to get some of this covid relief through. republicans have already signaled they will stand in the way of a lot of it. they want to get pieces of it through but not the entire package. so what does this relationship now post impeachment vote, where 43 voted to acquit donald trump in the attack on the capitol, what does the relationship look like by the white house you cover every day and this congress
? the maneuvering here over the course of the period of time since january 6th, you know, if you take into account the totality of it, right, mitch mcconnell's speech on the night of january 6th after the capitol was ransacked when they called business back in on the electoral college gave a speech that was powerful and that was admired by many, not just many republicans but many democrats thought mitch mcconnell was the kind of mitch mcconnell they had wished to see for many years that night. and then you saw him signaling over and over again in that period thereafter they was open to impeaching donald trump, open to convicting donald trump. his wife leaves the
administration. he let the world know where he was. and then, then pulled back the football from charlie brown on the timing of the trial, as you pointed out, kept the trial from happening while donald trump was still in office. then again floats the notion that he might vote to convict further into the after trump has left. toys with people again. sends a signal to his colleagues that he might be open to, as i said, to convict. and then decides to vote to acquit on these procedural grounds. what is all that about? i think it's about mcconnell, i think he was undecided late into this process. but i think he was trying to balance in his totally calculating, totally self-serving, manipulating way, he felt like he could not continue to be the leader of that caucus if he was on the wrong side of it. and i think he was testing the waters with his caucus about how many of them might follow him if
he voted to convict. when he realized he didn't have anything like the numbers that he would need to maintain his leadership with the caucus, he ended up where he ended up and then had to give that speech in which he tried to, for the purposes of donor maintenance, for the purposes of the larger electorate, to try to put the party and the republican senate caucus in the right place relative to history to say to the broader country, which was for conviction, by the way, hey, this is terrible. we can deal with donald trump in the courts, et cetera, et cetera. by and large, hugely cynical performance. i think the question remains, will it work? and, you know, the one thing that's been true about mitch mcconnell, he behaved in all of those ways, mock veil yann, cynical, manipulative, often the behaviors have worked for him, accruing to his benefit and accruing to the benefit of republicans in the senate. so we'll see two years from now, whether the gamble and cynicism
paid off. eddie glaude, as you have been saying, the pull of what he stands for the pull of his voters, the threat of donald trump looming out there, was stronger than the evidence that those senators not only saw and heard from house managers but lived through on january 6th. >> absolutely, willie. and i'm just reminded of something my father said to me yesterday. he said whatever mitch mcconnell was shoveling out of his mouth, we need to hold our nose. that's mississippi wisdom right there. you're absolutely right. and i want to take this question to doris. she said something that struck my attention. -- call the my attention rather. she talked in 1965 and the shift in public sentiment. we also know the civil war happened. cities began to burn.
how important is presidential leadership in these moments of crises where certain kinds of choices are being made where that different america is asserting itself and in some ways jeopardizing the policy? what role might president biden play in responding to the deep divisions that are in full view in this very moment? >> it's a great question, especially on presidents' day. here we are celebrating george washington and abraham lincoln.
you can pick off one on infrastructure. he can get a couple. maybe on a different bill he can get a couple. but i think if we just live in an era where there is comity and we feel a sense that ordinary business is being done in the capitol, some of that fascination with president trump will wear away. if public sentiment, as said before, if the majority were for conviction and a solid majority now, having listened to all that evidence feels that way and public sent the sets in and he doesn't have the same bully
pulpit and we make up not thinking about what he said, maybe that normal -- some normality will return. if the virus gives us normality returns to get us back to public life, it will be a huge change of atmosphere for the people in washington. and i wouldn't put it past the idea that we may be able to get things done. you've got to believe you will or you won't. i'm on the side of something may change in that crazy situation of washington. >> tim miller, in many ways saturday's vote closed the book on him being president. not the last we have heard from him as a long stretch. but his presidency is over. so at the end of it now, you have been one of the many people, many conservatives who stayed true to your beliefs, to your core, not a cultist, just believed things you stayed onto. where are you left? where are republicans like you who didn't follow donald trump off the cliff left?
what do you do now? what is your next move? >> i love to hear doris' optimism there. i wish i shared it. i guess i share it in the small sense that maybe joe biden is well positioned to work with republicans and get things done. i wish he would get more credit on fox and other places -- he's lived up to his campaign promise. he hasn't tried to divide the party. i don't share doris' optimism. those of us in the never trump movement are rather homeless now. i think we will splinter. i think there will continue to be a broad coalition that joe biden led from people who were almost socialists to quite
conservative folks that did not like the anti-democratic vent of the trump era. i think that will continue in the short-term. some of us will fight within the republican party and get on the side of liz cheney, adam kinzinger and those trying to fight in republican primaries. there is an accountability project trying to do that. i find myself more aligned with this joe biden wing of the democratic party. and i think the democratic party is going to go through a lot of what the republican party went through. you know, not -- again, as i said healerier, not in the same way but where they are rising in the democratic party. and i think joe biden's win in the primary shows when it comes to the voters, a lot of us in washington are trying to decide where do these never trumpers fit? what's the next play? what's the next strategic play. but the voter never trumpers,
the suburban in houston, dallas, they decided they are democrats now. at least for the time being. maybe that will change in 10 years in aoc is nominee. but these folks are democrats now and i think it's important to recognize that when you're analyzing our politics. . >> adrienne, obviously joe biden, president, is going to have to deal with republicans if he wants to get legislation through here. but on covid anyway, as jonathan pointed out, they may go the route of reconciliation. democrats could get that through. >> i think they are left with no choice. and where they are going and this perceived lack of desire to work with democrats, to work
across the aisle. again, it is supported by 90% of the american people. i think the white house made it very clear if we can get this done in a bipartisan way without having to go through reconciliation, we prefer that. that cannot happen as we are seeing. i think it will get past reconciliation and be a great thing for the american people while the white house is focused on trying to work with republicans they are focused on getting the job done for the american people. and covid relief cannot wait. we have millions of americans who remain out of work, millions of americans who need to get vaccinated. they have a lot of work to do. and they want to go ahead and get this passed so they can get the work done for the american people. >> all right. adrienne el rod, john heilman, tim miller getting reports online for the hair. glorious, as always. >> thank you. >> this month for black history month, we are asking many of our guests to talk about the legacy of a black american they add
myer. >> a. phillip randolph of sleeping carporters. he understand way back in 1941, the importance of bringing black masses to washington to pressure what was going on inside the halls of congress or the presidency. and he organized a big march in washington to protest the fact that blacks weren't getting jobs in the national defense industry, which was mobilizing in 1941. trains were there. arrangements were being made. and eleanor, good old eleanor steps in as fdr would call her, a welcomed thorn some his side. they arrange compromises. they don't have to bring them to washington because he will sign the executive order hopefully trying to bring an end to the blatant discrimination against black americans. then in 1963, more than 20 years later, he is the national director of the march on washington. the one i went to as a younger girl where we all sang "we shall
overcome" and heard martin luther king with the i gave a dream speech. a. phillip randolph deserves credit for having been the person who understood bring pressure from the outside. you have masses of people. and that becomes a big part of the civil rights movement. and he was a wonderful, dignified, classy man as well. . >> an excellent choice. doris, we could listen to you talk history all day long. but we will let you go have breakfast. house impeachment manager madeleine dean with her reaction to the verdict on saturday. backlash from some democrats over the decision not to call witnesses. and options still left to hold donald trump accountable. you're watching "morning joe". we'll be right back. ". we'll be right back.
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witnesses but that could not overcome the silly arguments people like mcconnell and capte were hanging their hats on. trying to have it both ways. . >> witnesses in a senate hearing tkphot come and stand before the senators and make any statements. it's a deposition. it's videotaped. and that is brought before the senate. so i know that people are feeling a lot of angst and believe if we had this, the senators would have done what we wanted. we didn't need more witnesses. we needed more senators with spines. . >> impeachment manager stacey plaskett and jamie raskin. joining us democratic congresswoman of pennsylvania, madeleine dean. congresswoman, it's good to see you again. you and i had this conversation 24 hours ago over on the "today" show. so i will spread the ball around a little bit here. but i was taken by something you said in our conversation
yesterday on sunday "today" when i asked how it felt to know trump got effectively away with it. you said he didn't get away with anything. what did you mean by that? >> well, the world witnessed what happened january 6th and then on saturday. 57 senators -- you know they stand to give voice to their vote. stood and said he was guilty. the most bipartisan impeachment verdict ever. it was to me a moment in history. he got away with nothing. we made a record, permanent record for history as doris kerns goodwin said of all the dereliction of duty by the president. >> congresswoman, kasie hunt has a question for you. >> congresswoman, good morning. it's good to see you. in terms of the witness question and the historical record, i
know obviously we had heard from congresswoman herrera butler. there were calls for kevin mccarthy. and mitch mcconnell raised this question about criminal liability. i'm wondering from what you know behind the scenes, in doing the investigation that you did, who else besides herrera beutler have knowledge of what the president did or didn't know throughout the siege who perhaps you would encourage criminal prosecutors to call in a trial. . >> i want to be really clear about something. we didn't need more witnesses. we didn't need more evidence. the 43 senators who voted to acquit hung their vote on a false technicality that their own senate had rejected jurisdiction because he was now a former president. we did not need more witnesses. we did not need more evidence. we needed more senators with a
conscience. think of the contrast here. mitch mcconnell stood and voted not guilty. within minutes he stood in that same place and said and i quote, there is no question that trump is practically and morally responsible. he said, and i quote, his was a disgraceful, disgraceful dereliction of duty. i would say to mr. senator mcconnell, whose dereliction of duty? potentially his own. we needed more senators with a conscience. >> i absolutely take that point. but my question is about what happens next and what you know about who also has more information about, you know, did the president stand in the way of calls to get the national guard in. what did he know about mike pence's safety or not. we have not heard from the people in the context of what may be the next conversation about the former president, and that's criminal, not political.
>> well, i would imagine there are going to be dozens of people who have knowledge of the president's state of mind. i give herrera butler great credit for coming forward and saying what she knew of the president's state of mind and has copious notes that the minority leader had. what i do think is this is a question now for the republican party. i was thinking, as i prepared for the trial of margaret chaste smith during the mccarthy era. a senator who in the june of 1950, joined by six other republicans stood in the senate and gave a declaration of conscience. she said i hope the republican party will not ride to victory on the four horsemen of callum any. where fear, bigotry, smear. it appears the republican party is doing that again.
i hope goodwin is correct, more people will stand up, having witnessed what the president knew and what did he do, fail to do. we saw evidence of his failure to move for two hours in terms of sending help. you saw his frailier to call the national guard. what was he doing? why wasn't he in safe hiding? after all, our government was being attacked by insurrectionists. there's lots we're going to learn. certainly i hope we do have a commission that will move forward and collect in an impartial way all the evidence, all the witnesses and that more will stand up with their conscience and say what they know. >> congresswoman, jonathan re-lear has a question for you. jon? >> congresswoman, i wanted to press you more on the witnesses if i could. certainly you make your case clear here, you believe you
outlined very much donald trump's guilt, that was done already by the impeachment managers. but why not have witnesses? there was a moment on saturday where they were very much in play. and in the terms of the court of public opinion, even if more senators weren't going to break that way, why not dominate the news landscape a week or two more? why not have the witnesses come out and further make your case, further damage donald trump going forward, further damage republicans even? why not do that? were these signals from other democrats? was it signals from the white house, they didn't want to distract from their legislative agenda? why not go with these witnesses to carry days worth of news coverage, if nothing else? . >> well, we would not have had the opportunity to call witnesses. it's not as though everybody was going to voluntarily walk in and say, sure, i'll sit for a deposition under oath. this would have been back to the subpoena game.
and, sadly, the president's counsel would have tried to bring in a whole host of people who had nothing to do with the insurrection on the capitol. you know, i'm a member of the judiciary committee. i think you know we subpoenaed don mcgahn many, many months ago. that is still tied up in the courts. the american people would not have tolerated, nor would the senate have tolerated that kind of devolving circus of subpoena fights. what we were able to do, and i think this was terrific, we were able to get the president's counsel to stipulate to the statement by the congresswoman. that was evidence. that's a witness who knew exactly what the president was thinking because mccarthy had told her and other members of their conference that the president was more concerned with what was going on with the insurrection and the big lie than he was about the safety of any of them or even his own vice president. it shows state of mind. that is witness.
so i appreciate all the questions on process and witness, but we certainly showed all witnesses, evidence. you saw videotapes of police officers. you saw them speak. you saw insurrectionists speak about what they were doing and who called them there. we had plenty of witnesses. and the procedural process piece i thought we were successful in getting the stipulation by the president's team as to the president's state of mind through the representative statement. >> congresswoman madeleine dean, one of the house impeachment managers who convinced 57 united states senators to vote to convict, including seven republicans, thanks so much for being with us this morning. good to see you. coming up on "morning joe", the cdc issued new guidelines for reopening schools, but will they actually help students back in the classroom sooner? some people are wondering. "morning joe" is coming right back. ndering. "morning joe" is coming right back ♪ ♪
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we are still at about 100,000 cases a day. we are still at around 1,500 to 3,500 deaths per day. the cases are two and a half fold what we saw over the summer. it is encouraging to see the trends coming down, but they are coming down from an extraordinary high place. . >> that is rochelle what lessen sky. they are still far too high even though the average fell below 100,000 for the first time since november. as for schools on friday, the cdc released its road map to safely reopen them, which includes universal mask use, physical distancing, hand washing, cleaning and disinfecting school facilities, and contract tracing. here is the director defending those guidelines.
>> we have work to do, especially when the country remains in the red zone of high community transmission. as that transmission comes down, we will be able to relax some of the measures. the real point is to make sure the science is consistent with guidance, which is consistent to say until we can ensure we have all the measures happening, the schools wouldn't be safe. . >> it sounds to me like you're asking for 100% mask compliance and a number of measures we'll never be able to achieve, and that makes me feel like, boy, i don't know if the schools will ever open until everybody is vaccinated. >> had there's literally that shows 90% of americans wear their masks, we can have the safely opening of schools. we have more flexibility and opening schools as our disease rates come down. so i would say this is everybody's responsibility to do their part in the community to get disease rates down so we can
get our schools opened. >> joining us now, dr. vin gupta, a pulmonologist. for parents hoping for clarity with these highly anticipated guidelines, i'm not sure they got them exactly. some of the standards closed schools that opened in terms of a community number that would have to be low enough to keep a school open. there is a big focus on mitigation. are they looking in the right place? >> good morning, willie. let me start off by first saying dr. walensky is tackling a tough problem. this is dramatically different conversation than it was six weeks ago under the prior administration. so that's one. two, everybody, from teachers, to parents, obviously to students, we all want schools open and critically to stay open. none of this start and close it, start it and close it.
it doesn't help anybody. three, the variance of causing alarm, and the causing of people to rethink, some of my colleagues in public health, what we should be doing about a vigilant approach to reopening, whether parts of society. let me say mitigation in general is hard to do, willie. it's easy to say it. it's hard to do. and the key crux of it, of all the experience i have been a part of and my colleagues have been a part of has been making sure there is adequate ventilation and easy availability of testing. you mentioned the five pillars of the cdc's plan. neither of those strategies are put into that plan in any meaningful way. it was confusing to us. why wouldn't these things that we have been talking about for months also apply to schools. is it because they're difficult to do? absolutely. it is vital that we do that.
i will lastly say community transmission rates should remain low. they're not in most zip codes across the country. it is hard to imagine how they will remain low. and the restaurants and other establishments opening up in over 48 states. maybe the quickest way actually to opening schools and keeping them open -- let me remind you. schools are open for hybrid learning in a lot of zip codes across the country right now. we can at least protect those that might be at highest rigging. that would be the quickest way to open because it's really complicated. it's just difficult as far as resources and time. >> as you know, the director said herself a couple weeks ago
and has to walk it back a bit that i don't think teachers need to be vaccinated to open schools. some schools, she didn't say all schools, should be able to open safely. it is something echoed by dr. fauci. do you believe that all teachers need to be vaccinated and that schools need to be ventilated as president biden has said? that's a huge project obviously to reventilate, to go into his physical plans across the country. do we need vaccination and ventilation before schools can reopen in. >> willie, the short answer is question. i think you will find that's the path to open up schools the most quickly because everything else, to your point, you can't just magically create better ventilation systems. the government accountability office says 40% of school
districts need an upgrade. you can't just dump testing and imagine a magic testing regime happening on a monday then. you need clinical wrap-around services. the mitigation plans they put in place are helpful, but this is a respiratory pandemic. you need better ventilation and you need testing. we have been preaching that for months on end. if we could do all those things, certainly, but it is hard to do that. the quickest way to get children back in schools is to protect the adult staff through vaccination. >> it is just brutal for so many parents watching their kids suffer on remote learning and all the benefits from school they have been deprived of for a year now. great to see you. thank you. new york governor andrew cuomo facing backlash after his administration held back data on the death toll pandemic on nursing home residents.
a top aid admitted last week that a private conference call with democratic leaders that they had underreported the number of people that they placed into nursing homes. they withhold the data because they feared an investigation with the justice department. in a statement friday morning, secretary for the governor said in part she was explaining that when the state received the federal inquiry, quote, we needed to temporary set aside the legislature's request to deal with the federal request first. she said they were coprehensive and transparent in their responses to the fda. failing to report the number of nursing home residents transferred to hospitals until late january when the department of health released an estimate hours after the state attorney general issued a report faulting the state for withholding the number. state lawmakers now are calling for investigation after new details came out about why
certain nursing home data was kept under wraps for months, despite a number of requests. as our next guest writes, quote, the continuing questions about how many people died in nursing homes threatened to overshadow mr. cuomo's legacy. joining us now jesse mckinley. thanks so much for being here this morning. talking about how he handled the lessons in leadership, and that was right in the middle of it and then things started to get worse. boil this down for people haven't been following what exactly happened here and what exactly his administration did or didn't do in terms of nursing homes. >> this all basically comes down to transparency. the governor for months and months has been saying that the number of people that died in nursing homes was much lower
than it was. over the last two weeks between our reporting and reports in the new york post, as well as a court order that came out last week, that number has almost doubled. so we're talking about 15,000 people either in nursing homes or long term care facilities that died in the pandemic and that number continues to tick up. either way it goes back to the governor's credibility on numbers and on data. this is a politician who since the beginning of the pandemic has good reviews of being a just the facts kind of politician. he was saying i have been told it's all about science. it's all about da. it's all about science. now it turns out he was withholding that data and it kind of undercuts that imagine. >> jonathan lemire is here with a question for you. >> hey, jesse. certainly this is a disastrous part of the book rollout. we covered governor cuomo.
i'm curious as certain who presents just the facts mentality and certainly is one who rules or governs with a fair amount of intimidation across new york state. let me ask you what happens next. what other potential investigations from the state attorney general or otherwise? is there an internal state review being conducted? what else could we learn and how does this open up the governor or members of his staff to litigation or civil suits or, you know, thinking about so many people whose loved ones died perhaps in connection to this decision, these patients going back to nursing homes? they will make that case anyway. walk us through the steps. >> i think the sort answer is all of the above. over the weekend, antonio delgado, the democratic congressman from the hudson valley said there should be investigations. that comes on the heels of republicans and democrats in the state house saying there should
be investigations. i think that is still an open question as to whether or not that will be picked up on the state level. although, with the biden administration that seems less likely. in the immediate future, the law makes will try to revoke his emergency powers. although, that may face a bit of a difficult thing. jonathan, i think the larger question kind of goes back to his reputation. he's up for re-election last year. that was looking like a pretty easy task considering the democrats dominate new york. but he will probably face a primary next year, and this sort of narrative that he withheld data on nursing homes will certainly be a talking point for anyone taking him on either on the democratic side in the primary or on the republican side in the general. and then looking forward to 2024 when there had been some chatter that mr. cuomo might be interested in running for president, which would seem to
be a blemish on that legacy. as you point out, this is a guy who cares about his legacy. he has built a political brand on being a bragmatic progressive, a guy who gets things done and telling the truth. this appears to be an instance where what he was telling the public was not necessarily the whole truth. >> infuriaing for those who lost loved ones. thanks so much for your reporting, appreciate it. senator mitch mcconnell's muddled message to be kind in the trump impeachment verdict. voting to acquit but also saying the president is morally and practically responsible for the attack on the capitol. the next hour of "morning joe" starts right now. >> after he's out of office, you go and arrest him. so there is no opportunity where the president of the united states can run rampid in january at the end of his term and just go away scot-free.
the department of justice doesn't know what to do with such people. >> president trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office as an ordinary person. didn't get away with anything yet. yet. we have a criminal justice system in this country. we have civil litigation. and former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either one. >> mitch mcconnell after his vote to acquit donald trump, suggesting the former president still may face judgment in the courts. welcome back to "morning joe." it is february 15th, president's day. joe and miikka have the night off. joining me is jonathan lemire, professor at princeton university, nbc news capitol
hill correspondent kasie hunt, historian john meachum who occasionally unofficially advises president biden and author of "how the right lost its mind," charlie sites. charlie, let me begin with you because you have been talking and thinking about this a lot over the last four or five years, what donald trump has done to the republican party, what he means for the future of the republican party. you called the vote on saturday a defining vote for the party. what did those senators tell you on saturday? >> well, first of all, mad respect for the seven that voted to convict. but you think about the votes that republican have taken. i think it's 17 to 240 to basically say that they're okay with what happened on january 6th. look, it is donald trump's party but worse. you think about the last four
years and the republican party's acquiescence, the looking the other way for the racism, the lies, the mockery of disabled and women, all of that. but now they have decided to look the other way to sedition, violence, anti-democratic authoritarianism, and i think this party is -- i think the impeachment damaged donald trump and the republican party but also changed the republican party. the republican party now has a large constituency of extremists, including extremists who are violent. we talked a lot about cowardly republicans. one of the reasons why they're cowardly is because fear is a major factor now in right wing politics, in republican politics, and i don't think that's going to go away. i think many of the right wing extremists will feel embolden by
the vote over the weekend, and i think you will see the republican party continue to uncourt natalie appease those factions. so it is donald trump's party, which is not new, but i think it is in some ways worse. >> there were seven republicans who voted to convict. a couple of surprises, but most of them either just won re-election or are retiring. richard burr already now today will face censure from his home state of north carolina, so there is blowback from those votes, from donald trump himself, from members of the maga movement showing still, even with him out of office, there is and will be a price for stepping out of line with the former one term twice impeached president. >> yeah. if i were senator burr, i would embrace that. you know, and say, you know, sometimes we talk about obituary
management. those seven folks just helped their obituaries. you know, i think about this a lot when you see we're in the point in the cycle where a lot of folks involved in watergate with moving on. it is just interesting to see what is it that you're remembered for. i'm sure senator burr is a lovely man, and i'm sure he's done a lot for north carolina and america. but i promise you that the thing right now that looms largest is that he decided we're a kons constitutional republic, not a cult of personality. >> mitch mcconnell had a strange moment where he voted to acquit and gave a speech on the floor to his colleagues laying out all the ways he voted for insurrection. a former office holder who is
now a private citizen. here is how he couched that in that floor speech. >> the people who stormed this building believed they were acting on the wishes and instructions of their president. and having that believe was a foreseeable consequence of the growing crescendo of false statements, conspiracy theories and reckless hyperbole, which is defeated president kept shouting into the largest megaphone on planet earth. there is no question, none, that president trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. no question about it. >> january 6th was a disgrace. american citizens attacks their
own government. they used terrorism to try to stop a specific piece of domestic business they did not like. president trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office. as an ordinary citizen, didn't get away with anything yet. >> mcconnell's speech, he got a load off his chest obviously. but unfortunately, he put a load on republicans. that speech you will see in 2020 campaigns. i would imagine if you are a republican running in arizona or georgia if we have a chance to take back the senate they may be playing mcconnell's speech and asking you about it as a republican. there will be people asking you if you support senator mcconnell in the future. i like him. he worked well with president trump. i think his speech is an outlier
regarding how republicans feel about this. >> casey, as you know, mcconnell flirted with the idea that he was open to voting for conviction over the last couple of weeks. he talked about that and signalled that in leaks to various press outlets. was there ever a chance that mitch mcconnell, the moore know -- minority leader was going to vote to convict trump? >> i do think there was. the problem was there wasn't others in his conference that made clear they weren't able to follow him down the road. if he had made the base behind the scenes, he could have made it to 17 republicans. so if that's how mcconnell had voted, he would have essentially not been able to remain as the leader in his conference. and he decided that he actually did want to continue in that role. and so this is why and again i'm
just trying to explain to everyone was the thinking is. mitch mcconnell is all about power politics. so his vote was about retaining his power inside his conference inside the senate. and his speech was about trying to get power back for republicans across the board because he just wants to win in 2022. and he knows that he can't do that in suburbs in swing states if they embrace what donald trump has done and what has happened. they cannot embrace this violent rhetoric because while, yes, donald trump brought some new people into voting for republicans, that group is still a relative minority. i mean, there would have been millions of people who would have voted for whatever the republican nominee was, whether it was jed bush or marco rubio. so it is a little disingenuous when people say you are discounting the votes of 70 million plus people. the people that stormed the capitol are a hard core version of president trump's supporters.
and many of them may not go to vote for anybody exception govern. if you're saying, i want to govern again, and we can't do that without absolutely condemning former president trump and what happened on january 6th, then i think it's so important just to realize that thinking about that speech, you know, we have often -- we often cover governments as republicans versus democrats, one side versus another side, that idea has come under a lot of criticism in the last four years. part of the reason why that's true is chuck schumer could have given most of the speech that mcconnell gave. nancy pelosi could have given the speech. people that are serious about trying to govern the country and thinking about it in the ten-year historical terms, their own obituaries some day, they all agree that what we saw happen with president trump is
outside of the norms. it is not acceptable. it is not american. and, you know, we don't have to mince words. there are republicans and democrats who believe that to be true. coming up, we will get eddy's thoughts about what he saw over the weekend and why the former president's trial reminded him of the deep south in the 1960s. "morning joe" is back in a moment. incomparable design makes it beautiful. state of the art technology, makes it brilliant. the visionary lexus nx. lease the 2021 nx 300 for $359 a month for thirty six months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. pick up like a pro. for thirty six months. just order on the subway app and it's ready to go with contactless curbside. turkey sub in a hot tub! now get 15% off any footlong when you order in the app. to support a strong immune system, your body needs routine. centrum helps your immune defenses every day,
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so, eddy, if you talked to impeachment managers, over the weekend they will tell you, we made our case. by the way, some republicans that voted to convict said that the house managers made their case, but they said they couldn't vote on technicalities. a group made their minds up before this trial ever began. but the fact of the matter is the case was made. the time line was built showing incitement of insurrection and
republicans couldn't bring themselves to vote to convict. >> absolutely, willie. i understand what casey is saying here and that there are republicans who hold that view. we know seven people took a risk in terms of their own political career. some of them already decided they're not going to run again. so the risk was minimal in some ways. one of the things we have to say is that there was a collision of two different americas that was evidence in this trial and that it wasn't about the facts. it wasn't about guilt or innocence. in some ways it felt, at least to me, about the defense of a particular way of life alongside of deep seeded self-political interest. and those two things became a deadly mix in an interesting source of ways when it comes to the safety and security of our democracy. this collision of two different americas is something that president biden will have to
address. how do we talk about the underlying values that connect these two americas? how do we begin to bridge because what we saw and what i'm hearing about the mouth of senator lindsey graham are folks who hold a different view of what this country should be. and the trial reflected that. you know what it reminded me of? it reminded me of the trials in the context of the 1950s in the south when there was no concern about guilt, no concern about the facts, only a defense of a way of life. that's what i felt. that's what i saw. and we have to figure out how we're going to address it. >> yeah. i mean, the facts were undeniable. they lived through them. they were witnesses to the crime. jonathan lemire, the press shop has taken pains to change the subject whenever impeachment came up saying they're focussed on the covid relief bill. but president biden did weigh in
on the acquittal saying on saturday, in part, quote, while the final vote did not lead to a conviction, the substance of the charge is not in dispute. even those opposed to the conviction believed donald trump was gmt of a disgraceful dereliction of duty and practically and morally responsible for provoking the violence unleashed on the capitol. biden added this has reminded us democracy is fragile, that it must always be defended and ever defended. each of us has a duty as americans and especially as leaders to defend the truth and to defeat the lies. so, jonathan lemire, it feels like today begins the biden administration. the cloud of impeachment over the first couple of weeks of his first term here is gone and now he can turn the corner and work
on covid-19 relief. >> willie, joe biden for his entire candidacy is a rebuke from donald trump. they were careful not just to react to everything trump did. they wanted to return to normalcy. and we have seen that same approach during this trial where biden made a point of saying studiously that he was ignoring the trial. he was not watching it live. of course he was briefed. he saw highlights. as much as he and his staff and senate democrats said they could do two things at once, they of course acknowledged privatety this was a distraction. there was a moment on saturday when it looked like democrats were going to have witnesses in the trial potentially extending this trial days, if not weeks, where there was real concern this would continue to linger over the administration.
it would show things down. now, the white house say they didn't call over to the senate and that a deal was struck where some testimony was submitted to the record and there was no witnesses and the trial ended on saturday anyway. you're right. today the biden camp believes they can start anew. he has an aggressive schedule this week. a town hall in wisconsin tomorrow. a visit to a pfizer plant in michigan later this week. his virtual international summit also this week, and he is looking forward. they recognize that as much as biden has wanted bipartisan ship, the republicans don't seem like they're playing ball and the vote reinforces how bit early divided this country is. seven republicans voted to convict president trump. by far the most any a president has faced from members of his
own party in a conviction vote. but donald trump famously said he felt he could shoot someone on fifth after and his followers would stay with him. they charged his words with leading to the deaths of five people. not one on fifth avenue but five in the capitol. republicans for the most part stayed with him and are already sounding words like they're not going to break with donald trump any time soon and therefore potentially not really help out this white house. that's a concern joe biden still has. >> coming up, sizing up what is left of the republican party. plus snl's take on mitch mcconnell when "morning joe" coming right back.
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why did you vote to acquit donald trump? >> because everyone knows you cannot impeach a former president. that's why we should have impeached him before back when i said we couldn't. >> well, that logic pretzels out. but what do you really think of trump? >> i think he's guilty as hell and the worst person i ever met
and i hope every city, county and state locks his ass up. oh, god. that felt good. i've been holding that inside my neck for four years. i got cracker crumbs in here. >> "saturday night live" with its take on mitch mcconnell after the vote on saturday. on sunday, senator lindsey graham, the real senator lindsey graham said on fox news republicans cannot take back congress in 2022 without the help of former president trump. senator bill cassidy of louisiana who voted to convict disagrees. here's what both senators said yesterday. >> i spoke to him last night. he was grateful to his lawyers. he appreciated the help that all of us provided. you know, he's ready to move on and rebuild the republican party. he's excited about 2022, and i'm going to go down to talk with him next week, play a little golf in florida. i said, mr. president, this maga
movement needs to continue. trump plus is the way back in 2022. he's mad at some folks, but i understand that. >> will he remain a force in the republican party? what does that mean for the republican party in. >> i think his force wanes. the republican party is more than just one person. >> so charlie what an interesting dichotomy here inside the party. republicans made clear which side they are with that vote on saturday, only seven of them voting to convict donald trump. but bill cassidy stepping out and voting guilty and also saying we don't really need donald trump as much as these other senators are telling you we do. >> lindsey graham is determined to become a punching line in american history. but, look, this is going to be the defining face of the republican party going forward. i actually think that cassidy is right in the sense that when you
get into the general election, if this party becomes more trumpian, they will lose the constituencies that lost control of the senate, that lost control of the house of representatives. they will continue to see an exodus of moderate, reasonable, principles republicaned. they will continue to lose in the suburbs. they will continue to lose women, college educated. and i think you are going to see donald trump engage in a revenge tour that is going to make the split in the republican party even worse. you know, i did think that the mitch mcconnell speech was extraordinary. he got some things off of his chest. the one thing that he made very, very clear was that donald trump may have been acquitted but testifies not exonerated. he is still deeply damaged. you have these republicans that hit behind technicality. almost none of them with the exception of lindsey graham defended donald trump or praised donald trump.
he's damaged goods. so it is going to be somewhat difficult for them. they won't be able to do it, though, because this is who they are to turn around and say we're good with donald trump. so this is going to be an interesting test for this political party here. there is a real gap between the institutional republican party in the senate which decided to move on from trump and the base which i think for the moment is sticking with donald trump. but 2022 will be a republican civil war, and i think they will have a problem in the general elections if they continue. >> donald trump was acquitted, but our next guest says he still lost. david frum joins our conversation to explain. "morning joe" is back in a moment.
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dramatic success in historical terms. you know, it was the largest impeachment conviction vote in u.s. history. it was by far the most bipartisan majority that's ever assembled in the senate to convict a president, which has traditionally been a bipartisan thing in american history. we got seven republicans. and if you look at the ten republicans in the house who joined us, it was by far the most bipartisan decision and a complete repudiation of the president's conduct. now unfortunately did it reach the two-thirds majority in the senate? we're explaining this to foreign journalists who can't understand why he wasn't convicted with a 57-43 vote. why do you need two-thirds? but i think we successfully prosecuted him and convicted him in the court of public opinion and in the court of history. he's obviously a major political problem for the republican party. as long as he's out there
attempting to wage war on the american constitutional democracy, it is a problem for all of us. >> that is jaime raskin yesterday with chuck todd. joining us now neal katyal. professor of history at new york university and staff writer at the atlantic david frum. good morning to you all. david, your latest column is titled "it's do." impeachment did not prevail but trump still lost. wasn't enough to formally disqualify trump from ever seeking office in the united states, but practically it will do right as a solemn and eternal public repudiation of trump's betrayal of his oath of office. david, obviously many democrats and people in this country are disappointed we didn't get to the 67 vote thus hold that would
have impeached donald trump. i don't think most people expected for that to happen. but what did the senate say on saturday, particularly those seven republicans who voted to convict president trump? >> well, let's take a step back and understand how impeachment was originally supposed to work. when the constitution was created, when the impeachment mechanism was installed, the framers of the constitution didn't understand how the senate would work, they didn't know what the senate was. and they largely guessed wrong at how it evolved. they imagined it as a body outside politics, a body that could act as a court when needed, a body that could advice the president when needed. the senate evolved into a partisan party. so the two-thirds requirement is a legacy of a time when people thought the senate would work in a different way than the way it actually ended up working. the senate did end up to get 57
votes. does what the two-thirds vote was supposed to do which says this is not one party attacking the other. this is a statement by the center of gravity of the american of public opinion. not only 57 of the senators, not only the 56% of the republic thought that donald trump ought to be convicted but the 70% of the public that thought he did something wrong. fewer than 25% of the country thinks donald trump did nothing wrong. it affixes infamy to him. that's what this is supposed to do. donald trump was never going to run again anyway. that's not the real problem. the real problem is to affix infamy to this figure to say that this riot he provoked, this insurrection he inspired, this is utterly unacceptable and not only the opposing party thinks so, every decent person thinks so. >> and, ruth, how extraordinary? you write about strong men and
authoritarianism over the course of history, how extraordinary to see mitch mcconnell vote to acquit president trump and then to go on the floor moments later and make a long speech laying out all the ways that president trump in fact incited an insurrection and saying, hey, now it is in the justice department's hands. now it's in the court's hands to go after this man. what did you see in the proceedings not just on saturday but over the last couple of weeks during the impeachment process? >> this is an existential struggle between the old and the new g.o.p. and i'll never forget the sight of mcconnell and others in the hushed chamber with all its decorum observing these protocols while this mob was outside. but mitch mcconnell enabled that mob. to me the whole saga through the acquittal just reinforces that the g.o.p. is a far right party.
comparative politic studies line it up with far right parties that are part of india and erduwan. it was a vote for the philosophy of politics that says that violence is an acceptable recourse to solve your problems which goes back to fascism in the age of military coups. this was a coup attempt. election results become -- that you don't like become just another, you know, informs point to be denied and fabricated, replaced with the information you need to stay in office. so this is -- this is -- all of it is very indicative of the g.o.p. having the authoritarian political culture. >> neil, even some of the republican senators who voted to acquit conceded that house managers did a good job making
their case, that they took us through the day. they laid out the time line leading up to that day for a couple of months. they described the big lie and showed a pattern of inciting violence from president trump. yet, those senators hid behind a jurisdiction argument to vote to acquit. is there any basis for that? were you compelled at all by the jurisdiction argument that we heard from many of those senators? >> no. the jurisdiction argument was a joke and a dodge through and through. and everyone knew it. that's why david is right, that the vote here is not a vote at all to acquit donald trump. they didn't acquit him on the facts. rather, the people that voted for him found no jurisdiction, a technicality. and a huge majority in the senate, including mitch mcconnell found trump guilty on the facts, and an overwhelming majority by 14 votes guilty on the facts and jurisdiction. if you added up the 57 senators
who voted against donald trump represent over 76 million more american votes than the 43 senators who voted to acquit. so when you scratch below the surface, it is like the song, both the house and senators saying, i think he did it. now, i disagree with david in saying that trump is not going to run again. i think this is a very dangerous outcome because i think he is going to run again. think about it. this guy has nothing else to do. and i said in the new york times back on january 4th that the case for impeaching and a lifetime ban on trump isn't just to block him from holding office. it is to prevent him from running. and representative ted liu said something similar. trump is a loser. i don't think he could win anca but we need to use this time to block him from running. it is not unlike coronavirus. just as coronavirus is a clear and present danger to our
health, donald trump is a clear and present danger to our public safety. just like coronavirus, when the day hi danger feels low and progress is being made, that's the worst time to let up. >> flush that out a little bit for our viewers. how would that work out? because i think the hope from many democrats was that if you could get a conviction in the impeachment trial, you vote to ban donald trump from running for federal office and you don't have to worry about him for 2024. >> right. so it's very hard for house and senate at this point not to invoke the 14th amendment. it says if someone has engaged in insurrection or aided or abetted it, they can be barred from future office holding. that can be done by a simple vote of the house and senate with some sort of judicial review so that donald trump can go into the court and say, hey, i'm not an insurrectionist.
that would force witnesses. we may hear from donald trump or mike pence or others. so that's one way in which trump could remove that lifetime ban and the 14th amendment says also if he could get a two-thirds vote in the house and senate one day to remove the ban, he can do that, too. >> jonathan lemire, jump in. >> ruth, i want to get you to weigh in on a debate we were having earlier in the show. we had one of the house impeachment managers on, and we pressed about why witnesses were not called on the ability to do so on the ability on saturday, and it looked like for an hour or so that we may indeed have real witnesses become part of this trial. they instead settled on getting testimony submitted into the record. how would you assess that decision? should that be a moment where democrats wanted the witnesses out there even if perhaps it
wouldn't change the outcome or the acquittal that could have swung one or two more republican votes or potentially won the court of public opinion that much further in the days ahead, made the trump that much more toxic in the future. what do you think should have been the outcome? >> i'm more interested in why the democrats decided not to do it, which is more evidence that the g.o.p. doing a take no hostages, not a bipartisan politic and more because the reason is because they threatened to shut down basically legislation. they wouldn't approve any appointments. and, again, this is not a -- these are not actions of a party that really wants bipartisan governance. this is one of the legacies of the contribution of the personality of donald trump who, you know, had no interest in governing in a democratic sense. he wanted to govern as an
authoritarian. that said, i think that people feel quite traumatized. they feel abused. donald trump and the g.o.p. has abused our trust. he abused the power of the presidential office and abused the devotion of his followers. we deserve that narrative. it is very important that the public gets to hear from -- i'd like to hear from trump. i'd like to hear from pence who has been loyal, humiliated by trump and look at what happened to him. i think we need to have these testimonies at some point and some form to act for the moral of the american people. >> so, david, i will let you respond to neil and explain why you think president trump will not run again for president in 2024. there could be civil proceedings brought against the victims
against donald trump. what comes next? >> well, i think first democrats need to take the win here. one of the things for those of us who have been historic republicans say we're familiar with a party that is a self-lacerating and self-abusing as the democratic party is. take the win. the witnesses would not have added anything. the thing was won. and when the white house and mitch mcconnell struck the deal, i assume the white house got something for it. that mcconnell speech in which mcconnell said the accusers are right, donald trump did it, that is powerful. here's what i mean when i say donald trump is not going to be able to run. and i assume they will raise money and do you know his followers. but the first step is donald trump is going to launch a revenge tour in 2022 against other republicans. he will try to make himself the subject of the 2022 elections.
that's the only thing that can preserve the democratic majority in the house and senate is donald trump saying i don't want the issue being anything going on in 2021 and 2022. i want the issue to be me, me, me. we know what happens when the issue is him, him, him, he loses. he will do damage to republicans. as they realize we could have taken the house back. we could have taken the senate back but because they insisted on running trump in north carolina, we didn't win a senate seat. we lost a senate seat. there is going to be resentment through the republican world. donald trump is on his way to becoming a parai. he has criminal and state and federal charges coming against him. i think the world will fall on his head and the consequences will unfold. >> we'll see and we will be reading your piece in the
atlantic. thank you all very much. coming up next here, the latest in the scramble for states to get more doses of the covid vaccine. we'll go live to one mass vaccination site as we come back in two minutes. better. that's easily adjustable has no penalties or advisory fee. and we can monitor to see that we're on track. like schwab intelligent income. schwab! introducing schwab intelligent income. a simple, modern way to pay yourself from your portfolio. oh, that's cool... i mean, we don't have that. schwab. a modern approach to wealth management. hi, i'm a new customer and i want your best new smartphone deal. well i'm an existing customer and i'd like your best new smartphone deal. oh do ya? actually it's for both new and existing customers. i feel silly.
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alone. as more states work to keep numbers trending in the right direction, they are asking for help to keep up with the demand. gabe, good morning. >> reporter: good morning. morning, this is one of the many vaccination sites across the country. that says officials could be doing more if only there was more supply. here in new york the expansion of eligibility is leading to more confusion. this morning a new scramble in the hunt for the vaccine, new yorkers with underlying health conditions are now newly eligible, but on sunday the demand brought the state's sign-up website to a halt. >> refresh, refresh, refresh, and then you have to go back through the form again and again and again. >> 51-year-old philip smith has a type of blood cancer. >> i want the vaccine. i want america to get back to normal. >> last week new york announced people ages 60 to 64 with certain underlying health conditions would be eligible starting today but they'd have
just 24 hours to sign up beforehand. >> this is going to be a long, anxiety-producing time. >> and across the country as more states begin to expand their vaccine eligibility and pharmacy chain like cvs and walgreens offer vaccinations there are more questions. how will authorities verify these folks actually have these underlying conditions? >> i can tell you here at mount sinai, we have started a system where we'll be giving letters to all the patients, verifying their underlying condition. >> reporter: as for all covid cases the nation is trending in the right direction. daily cases from fallen from 300,000 in january to less than 100,000 today. as a spread of more contagious variants are reported in 39 states. >> we can't let our guard down. we have to continue wearing masks, we have to continue with current mitigation measures.
>> reporter: for 37-year-old awa lamar in new york who has sickle cellsy anemia, sunday was stressful. >> i have to think about what -- >> reporter: hours on her phone to get an appointment. no luck. >> i'm nervous about when it will be possible for me to get the vaccine. the way things are going i have no idea. >> reporter: new york state authorities say yesterday they were booking about 350 vaccine appointments a minute, willie. >> wow, yeah, i mean to hear the man in the piece say refresh, refresh, refresh. that's what most people in new york and across the country are going through. it's a crap shoot. if you happen to be online and roadway fresh at the right moment maybe an appointment turns up. is it moving in the right direction, gabe, are more appointments coming open as more doses become available? >> reporter: well, and that is the big question this morning, willie, but you just saw in the
piece that woman awa, the patient with sickle cell anemia, we checked back with her this morning. even show say spent so many hours yesterday trying of get an appointment, back at it this morning, still not been able to book an appointment. we have seen people coming here throughout the day and there's a lot of frustration here, not just from those people getting the vaccines but also from public officials. we've, of course, been hearing mayor bill de blasio here in new york talking about the frustration over the lack of supply and certainly that is still continuing to play out really across the country, other mass vaccination sites, for example in california, dodger stadium, are still remaining closed at this point because they don't have a supply of doses, willie. >> nbc's gabe gutierrez at the jav its center in new york city, thanks so much. a very troubling trend, crimes against asian-americans have risen drastically since the start of the coronavirus pandemic. in the san francisco bay area alone there have been several violent attacks on elderly
members of the asian-american community leading up to the lunar new year last friday. the nonprofit stop asian-american pacific islander hate reports 2,800 instances of racism or discrimination, just between march 19th and december 31st of last year. joining us now is the ceo and founder of the nonprofit group rise, amanda nguyen, and dr. russell jun is also with us. good morning to you both. amanda, let me begin with you, how do you account for this rise, this ugly rise in hate crimes against asian-americans? >> look, leadership matters. and i urge our elected officials to stand up and denounce this. of course there has been a rise connected to coronavirus. one of them most directly happened in march 2020, a 2-year-old and a 6-year-old were stabbed in texas, in a grocery
store. and the perpetrator actually said, and indicated that he stabbed the family because he thought the family was chinese, and was infecting people with coronavirus. so when you have language, rhetoric from our leaders that say that we are a perpetual foreigner, that we are other, it has consequences and those consequences have now resulted in lives being lost. >> dr. jung, how different are these numbers that i just laid out, contrasted to a year before that, it's not new that asian-americans are targets of hate but is this a huge spike compared to other years? >> yeah, it's certainly a huge upsurge in racism against asian-americans. the year before we weren't even documenting it but because we saw such an increase in the hate and the attacks against us, it's -- we began to document last year. so hate crimes have really gone up and even more so hate incidents of just being verbally
harassed, shunned, spat and coughed upon. >> dr. jeung, jonathan lemire is here with a question for you. >> doctor, i wanted to see if we could go further into this rise. what sort of trends are you seeing statistically, are there certain parts of the country where we're seeing this happen more often? are there particular types of victims we're seeing, or perhaps particular types of perpetrators? then as a part two, what are you seeing in terms of means to prevent this? what has law enforcement been doing? has there been enough rhetoric perhaps from elected officials, whether the state or federal level or from the white house itself? >> yeah, there are clear trends in the data. people are targets those whom they think are vulnerable. women are harassed 2.4 times more than men. youth are often involved, especially in schools and on social media. you're seeing racist posts and memes. our elderly are viciously attacked and most vulnerable.
that's what's most distressing this lunar new year. what we think the government needs to do, beyond just announcing the hate, is to really expand civil rights enforcement. that's where a lot of the attacks and racism is occurring when we're facing discrimination in stores and not getting safe access to goods and services. we also need more public education to address the roots of racism. courses like ethnic studies help to build racial solidarity and empathy. we're not pushing for more hate crimes enforcement, it's just a small fraction of what's happening. we're pushing for more restorative justice matters where communities can heal and asian-americans get culturally competent resources to deal with their victim hood. >> so amanda, these, of course, are just the incidents that have been reported. god only knows how many comments have been made as you said in grocery stores and other places across the country over the last year. so what would you like to see done? what can happen, not just from
the government, but inside communities to stop this? >> i agree with everything that has just been said. the point here is not only to cover our grief but to also humanize us, which means teaching our history in schools, starting from the elementary level. we need to be seen as a part of this country, that we have been here, that we have built this country and that we have contributed, you know i think that the call to action is not only about denouncing these hate crimes, that is so incredibly important that people stand up in this moment of solidarity, one that is not only limited to this moment but continues on, again in the form of humanizing us. >> the attacks are appalling, the numbers are awful, and we really appreciate you coming on today to highlight this, we're going to stay on this and hope to have you both back, amanda nguye ne, dr. russell jeung, thank you both for being with us this morning, jonathan le mere,
before we go today, let's turn the corner and look at the week ahead for president biden. he does, as we were discussing earlier, want to focus on this covid-19 relief bill. willie, on this presidents' day my thoughts are turned to -- our current president joe biden has a pretty -- yeah, our current president joe biden has a robust schedule, his first two official bits of travel to wisconsin tomorrow for a town hall with regular americans and then later this week to michigan, to a pfizer plant and that is going to be part of this effort here, to really put the focus on the response to the pandemic and that massive covid-19 relief bill. they'll go it alone if they have to, the democrats, they're hoping to pick off even a little bit of republican support to call it bipartisan and set up a template for further legislation down the road. this is just one of a few massive bills coming this year. but look for joe biden to not discuss much of the impeachment
unless forced to respond to potentially a news conference of donald trump later this week. >> chester arthur getting his dew from jonathan lemire on presidents' day. chris jansing picks up the coverage. hey, chris. >> hey, willie, why wouldn't you talk about chester a. arthur. i'm in for stephanie ruhle. it's monday, february 15th, a holiday. it's a new start for two presidents this presidents' day, one current, one former, for joe biden he finally gets to take center stage following his predecessor's impeachment trial and a new reality for donald trump, acquitted by senate thanks to republican lawmakers, still be-holden to his political strength, even as that at least perceived strength couldn't stop seven senators for voting for impeachment. it all makes you wonder, where does the country go from here? first order