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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  April 5, 2021 3:00am-6:00am PDT

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countries do this, they can all compete on kind of a similar level. and i think that she's going to be making a big case for that in her first big speech later this week. >> all right, alayna treene, thanks very much for being up early with us this morning. we really appreciate it. and thank you all for getting up way too early with us on this monday. "morning joe" starts right now, a weekend after the orioles swept the red sox, not something i ever thought i would get to say, joe. >> no, it was -- it was rough. it was rough. took my boys up to fenway and my son -- one of my sons told me, right before we were about to be shut out in the first game, said, you know, dad, they haven't -- the red sox haven't been shut out in their home opener at home since your 11th birthday. i said, that's bad. and yesterday, i hear, the red sox haven't been swept, their opening series since harry truman was president.
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i don't know, by next week, we may be going all the way back to the magna carta. i'm hoping for the red sox's sake that the orioles are like the '27 yankees, because that's what they looked like in fenway. >> well, look, joe, i've got to tell you, the orioles have not won a world series in my lifetime, which i think says more about them than it does about me, but who knows. i will also say that it was good -- i'm sorry that you guys were there to witness that. i know everyone wants the home team to win. seeing trey mancini come back on the field after beating colon cancer and three runs batted in, three rbis, i think was a really great message everyone to that you can really come back strong from something tough. so i -- you know, let's go os. >> yeah, that was a positive story and a great weekend. thank you so much, kasie. we really appreciate you talking about this weekend. it was -- i'll tell you, it was, though, it was incredible to be
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back in fenway, incredible to be there, sharing it with my kids. i think only 13% of the seats that were occupied. a far cry from what the texas rangers are doing right now. i think they can kind of meet somewhere in the middle. but i hope you had a great weekend. with us this morning, we have host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. professor at princeton university, eddie glad jr., and author of "how the right lost its mind," charlie sykes. we have former chief of staff to the dccc, adrienne elrod, she recent worked for the biden campaign and the inaugural committee. mika and willie have the morning off. and it was quite a weekend, rev, easter weekend, but also, obviously, yesterday, remembering the passing of martin luther king over half a
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century later. 53 years later. >> yes, it was. the irony of the day is as we that are christian celebrate the resurrection of many of us in this country and in the civil rights community remember the assassination of dr. king. i was 13 years old when he was assassinated and had already become youth director of his new york chapter of operation breadbasket. and i thought about as we are in the midst of this trial of derek chauvin and minneapolis around the killing of george floyd, as we're dealing with voter suppression laws in georgia and 43 other states, how far we have come and how far we have not come since dr. king's assassination. but then i'm reminded of his last book entitled, where do we go from here, chaos or community, we are still confronted with those choices. but in his last message the
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night before the assassination, he predicted. he said, we'll have some difficult days ahead, but i want you to know that we as a people will get to the promised land. and that's what drives many of us that remain in that tradition of dr. king. he promised us we would get to the promised land, no matter how difficult the days my seem. >> one of the -- eddie, one of the more extraordinary speeches in american history, the speech he gave that night in memphis on april the 3rd, 1968, the night before he was assassinated, talked about seeing the promised land and he might not get there with you, but he talked about that we as a country were going to reach that promised land. here we are, 53 years later, and by in metrics, we've moved miles and miles and miles as a country on the issue of race and other metrics, not so much. and this easter weekend,
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obviously, a city like minneapolis still on edge over a possible racial showdown in the coming week or weeks. >> absolutely, joe. it was a powerful weekend. resurrection sunday for those of us that are christians is an extraordinarily important day. but i'm thinking about what rev just said. we often run past that line in king's famous speech, "we have some difficult days ahead." it's like running past holy saturday in order to get to resurrection sunday. we have to deal with what saturday represents in order to get to sunday. so some of those difficult days he spied we're still in. but he gave an easter sunday speech on april 25th, 1957, when he talked about the power of love, the importance of love. how love can outlast the ugliness of the moment. here we are in these difficult days, if we stand on the power
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of love, we can imagine rising again, it seems to me. it can actually happen. >> and during his easter sunday address, pope francis called on the world to end poverty, and end the pandemic. he called on the leaders of wealthy nations to speed up the vaccination distribution and share the essential tool to end the pandemic with poorer nations. the united states is now administering more than 3 million new vaccine shots daily. the cdc also reported a record 4.1 million -- 4.1 million new doses that were given out on saturday. the agency says just over 104 million americans or 31% of the population have received at least one dose of the vaccine nearly 60 million people or 18%
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of the population are fully vaccinated. the cdc says it's now safe for fully vaccinated people to travel. americans traveling within the u.s. can now do so without needing a covid test or quarantining. if you're leaving the country, you also don't need a test, unless the place you're visiting asks for it. and when you're coming back from an international trip, you should get a negative test before flying and another test upon arrival. the guidance hasn't changed for americans who aren't fully vaccinated, though. as they're urged to avoid traveling. these changes come after tsa reported the most passenger screenings since the start of the pandemic on friday. charlie, so i went up to boston with my boys and we watched the red sox, a difficult weekend. i will tell you, seriously, what was more difficult for me was driving through boston.
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the city is abandoned. we've been very concerned about florida. you look at a lot of the pictures and there's just rank irresponsibility. he seems to be trying to, quote, own the libs with every statement he makes. at the same time, you go to the other extreme and look at what charlie baker in the state of massachusetts is doing. i'm telling you, it's like going back ten months. almost all the buildings were shut down. almost all the restaurants were shut down. a lot of the schools are shut down. there is a happy medium between there. and with a mental healthcare crisis exploding like it is right now, and with every mental healthcare provider i talk to right now say, we are at a tipping point. charlie, you like me are
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conservatives, but we have been urging caution through this pandemic. i think the caution now goes to the other side. people need to start opening up. we've got one out of three americans, at least partially vaccinated, 4 million americans got vaccinated on saturday. deaths and hospitalizations are plunging. it is time to open every school. it is time to start opening up cities like boston. the mental health of americans requires it with all of these vaccines already in the arms of americans. >> you're right. we're in this race between the vaccination and the herd immunity and the recklessness of some people in the country who are not observing any of the limits whatsoever. but you're right. look, this country is, there's -- it's pent-up demand, it's like a wound spring that people are just ready to get back to their lives. and you mentioned getting back to school. this has got to be the number one priority and this it's not a
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good look from some of the teachers unions who are continuing to resist going back to school, even after they've been vaccinated. look, we've got to get the kids back to school. we're not going to get back to normal until we do that. the science seems to make it very, very clear that you can reopen the schools without a significant health danger so absolutely we need to get back to school. here in wisconsin, we're much more open than you described in boston. we're not yet at florida levels, but, you know, i guess the -- i guess my concern is that we're at the three-yard line right now. let's not spike the football at the three-yard line. let's take all of the precautions but the clock -- the clock is ticking. look, by the end of this month, by the beginning of may, people are going to go back to their lives, whatever the rules are, whatever the guidelines are, whatever the shutdown rules are. >> the clock is ticking, but we're not on the three-yard line as it pertains to schools.
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a month ago, anthony fauci and others were saying, it's time to get kids back in school. i'm sorry if politicians are scared of teacher's unions. i really am. if you're that weak that you're not going to do what's in the best interest of children after anthony fauci is telling you to open up the schools, i feel sorry for you, because you need to do what's in the kids' best interests. and let me be very clear. we're not at easter of 2020 when donald trump was recklessly saying open the country. we're at easter -- we're past easter of 2021 when one in three americans have had at least one of their vaccinations. and we had 4 million vaccination shots given the other day. we have made great advances over the last year. we understand what causes covid and what doesn't cause covid. there is no reason why buildings across boston and in country can't open up, at least partially open up. where n-95 masks require six-foot distancing, have proper
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ventilation. enough is enough. follow science. that's what we were saying when we were criticizing donald trump. that's what we're saying now. follow the science and if you follow the science, every school should be opened in america. adrienne, i know it's a balancing act. i know that a lot of people have looked at what's happened over the past year and looked at the recklessness of the former president. looked at the recklessness of certain republican governors who are more interested than owning the libs. than they are following science and medicine. at the same time, aren't we getting really close to the point where cities, towns, businesses, small businesses, should be allowed to open up across the country? >> absolutely, squloe. you talk about that happy medium, striking balance.
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you have states like florida, arkansas, my home state, who have taken this to the farthest extreme by lifting the mask mandate, not helpful. you have states like massachusetts, as you mentioned that probably need to be a little bit more aggressive in terms of opening up businesses. but, joe, i want to mention something when you talk about what's in the best interest of kids and sending kids back to school. it's also in the best interest of parents. there's a lot of parents out there who simply cannot afford to stay home with their kids. we don't have a federal paid leave policy. the biden administration has made it clear that that's something that they are hoping will be passed in maybe one of the next upcoming stimulus bills. but it's something that's got to be focused on here, because you just don't -- not every parent in this country has the luxury of staying home and taking care of their kids. that's something that governors across the country have got to be focused on. and it's something that, you know, we've got to take into consideration when it comes to the interest of the kids. >> and you know, rev, adrienne brings up a great point. i'm talking about the children.
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obviously, again, i want to go back and underline the mental health crisis. it's getting worse by the day and we are reaching a critical moment right now where kids have to get back into school. but adrienne brings up a great point. there are a lot of parents that can't continue to be staying at home, stwag from their job, being distracted from their job. this has a disproportionate impact especially on working class and middle class americans who can't afford a nanny, can't afford a babysitter day in and day out. >> not only does visit a disproportionate impact on working class parents, it has a disproportionate impact on those youngsters that are in broadband desert areas.
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that can't go to school online because it's not available. so if you compile the fact that we have large swaths of the community that i come from that have been victimized by broadband deserts and compile that with the mental health issue and by parents and some of them single mothers that can't afford to stay home, it is time to go back to school, especially when vaccinations have been so widespread now. it is even more necessary for those that have been disproportionately impacted. >> and eddie glad, you look at the financial crunch that middle class americans have been through. you look at the disproportionate impact that this impact has had, not just economically, and not just medically, but also economically, on people of color and when i'm driving past those
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buildings in boston, one after another after another after another, shut down, the people that run the building, the executives of that building, they're watching their money multiply in the stock market. this past year has been one of the best year for the top 1%. every day, charlie baker allows those buildings to stay shut down, every day. every day, people can't go back to work. it's not the top 1% that are being damaged. for the most part, it's working class americans, working class bostonians, middle class americans and middle class bostonian bostonians. the people that are feeling the disproportionate impact of us not opening this country back up, when one out of three americans have been vaccinated. when the majority of americans are moving toward immunity.
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we've got to get this country opened back up for working class and middle class americans, because you look again at the death rate, look at the hospitalization rate, it's going down. >> it's going down. you're absolutely right. we've seen and experienced covid capitalism, where the top 1% have multiplied their bank accounts, while everyday, average, working people have struggled to keep their noses above water. and above our dead, the poor are disproportionately represented. black people, people of color, white poor people are disproportionately represented among that extraordinary number of american dead. part of what we have to emphasize, we have to follow the science. we have to follow the science, we have to be deliberate. but we also see at the same time, we have to acknowledge that the variants of covid-19 is having an impact. look at what's happening in
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michigan. so we have to be deliberate in how we do this so we don't wind up in a position where we have to do all of this all over again. but i think you're absolutely right in terms of mental health. we're on the bring. we need to figure out how to do this in a reasonable way. we have examples of how not to do it, but we need to agree to open up. >> and a balanced approach, you're exactly right. you look at those pictures out of florida, where people are jammed together, no masks, no social distancing. there is a happy medium. follow the science, follow medicine, open up, require n-95 masks. require 6 feet of distancing. make sure you have proper ventilation. do all of those things. it can be done. and it needs to be done for working class americans. it need to bes to be done for our children. it needs to be done for the
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millions and millions of americans who are at the breaking point. this now has become, again, i think a mental health crisis that is now perhaps even more urgent, more urgent than where we are in the covid crisis. if you look at the number of vaccinations, the 4 million vaccinations that were given on saturday, the fact that the number of deaths are going down, the fact that the number of options are going down. there are variants that we need to be concerned about. well, we have therapeutics, we have n-95 masks. we know what works. we know that 6-foot distancing works, we know that proper ventilation works. i think it's the responsibility of governors, the responsibility of leaders to figure out how to strike that happy medium between boston and miami beach. still ahead on "morning joe," georgia governor brian kemp hits
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back after major league baseball decides to move the all-star game out of atlanta. how does georgia's election law compare to other states? plus, supporters of former president trump unknowingly donated -- and this is a hard-breaking story. unknowingly donated more money to his campaign than they wanted to, according to "the new york times" investigation. in fact, the trump campaign may have accounted for 3% of credit card fraud complaints in the entire country. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ntry you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ comfort in the extreme.
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the new voting bill that passed out of georgia. obviously, it caused a firestorm. and georgia governor brian kemp criticized that decision and also criticized several atlanta-based companies as backlash over state's new voting law continues. so it was friday, actually, that mlb announced it was going to be moving the upcoming all-star game out of atlanta to a ballpark in another state. that news had the governor hitting back over the weekend, even comparing voting laws in georgia to those in new york state, where major league baseball is headquartered. >> major league baseball caved to fear and lies from liberal activists. they ignored the facts of our new election integrity law and they ignored the consequences of their decision on our local community. georgians and all americans should know what this decision means. it means cancel culture and partisan activists are coming
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for your business. they're coming for your game or event in your hometown. and they're coming to cancel everything from sports to how you make a living. in new york, they have ten days of early voting. in georgia, we have a minimum of 17, with two additional sundays that are oppositional for all counties in our state. in new york, you have to have an excuse to vote by absentee. in georgia, you can vote absentee for any reason, and you can do it securely. it's easier to vote in georgia than it is in new york. even more ridiculous is that mlb didn't cite a single reason that they disagreed with the bill in their statement. everyone standing here today and those at home know why, because the facts and the truth don't support their narrative.
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>> so that's really the question. what are the facts, what's the truth? and was this reaction by major league baseball -- it's a question that was explored by election analysts and the data guru when it comes to elections, nate cohn, in his latest piece entitled "georgia's election law and why turnout isn't easy to turn off." in it, cohn writes, in part, this. there's a real and bipartisan misunderstanding about whether making it easier or harder to vote, especially by mail, has a significant effect on turnout or election outcomes. the evidence suggests it does not. it's possible the law is intended to do exactly what progressives fear, reshape the electorate to the advantage of republicans. soon after an electoral defeat, making it harder to vote. and yet the law's voting provisions are unlikely to -- this is cohn speaking. the voting provisions are
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unlikely to significantly affect turnout or democratic chances. it could plausibly even increase turnout. in the final outcome, it will probably be hard to say whether it had any effect on turnout at all. that's nate cohn, "the new york times" election data expert. so let's take a closer look at what the new law does. and what the new law does not do. and i'm doing this so you can actually look and make up your own mind, instead of having people telling you what you should or shouldn't believe. and check this out. this is all in "the times." it's all in the "wall street journal." it's all in "the washington post." it's all out there. producers have done a good job of breaking this down. under the new law, georgians are going to have at least 17 days of early voting, including two saturdays, as the governor said, with an option of sundays, as well. now, the law before the
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pandemic, in the last election, in 2018, used to require only one saturday for early voting. precincts that had long lines in the past elections and georgia, my god, they had some of the longest in the country, are now required to add machines, are now required to add staff, or are required to split the precinct, with a lot of these precincts need to be split. on that, nate cohn writes, it could be a big win for voters in georgia's urban areas, who have dealt with some of the longest lines in the country. but those voting by mail will be required to provide i.d. and the window to request and return an absentee ballot is shorter than it was in 2018. runoffs are going to be held four weeks after the initial election instead of nine weeks after. that squeeze in early voting to just one week down from three. ballot drop boxes, which had not
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been part of georgia voting until the pandemic, when they were added under emergency rules for covid, now there are drop boxes that are actually written into the law. there are limits of the number in each county. and while some drop boxes in the last election were outdoors and unusable at all ours, they must now be indoors and accessible only during early voting hours. instead of being accessible during all hours, now only during early voting hours. with this law in place, georgia will still have to excuse absentee voting. in that respect, the governor is right, it's far more permissive than new york state, which has a democratic governor, a democratic legislature, and allows only limited absentee voting. new york also has fewer days of early voting. just nine compared to georgia's minimum of 17. and again, as the georgia
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governor would tell you, that's -- new york is where mlb is based. new jersey was just praised last month for a law that expanded early voting. it went up to nine days. or about half of what georgia has now. and critics of the law, including president biden have singled out the restriction, and i have too, the restriction on handing out water to voter in line. but that same provision states, quote, this code section shall not be construed to prohibit a poll officer from making available self-service water from an unattended receptacle to an elector waiting in line street. another state with restrictions on bringing water to voters in line. you guessed it, new york. under new york state law, refreshments given out must be worth less than a dollar and the people given them out cannot openly identify with a candidate. violations of that rule a class "a" misdemeanor. so i've got to say, so you're probably balancing these things
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like i am saying, a little of this, a little of that. it's going to be hard to figure out how a lot of these provisions compared from new york to new jersey to other states. some delaware, where some blue states are even more restrictive than georgia. the big concern, i think for people who have really read this closely, and what concerned me the most, has been the action by georgia -- and this is also what's concerned george-based company mlb, is you look at the shock of the post-trump era that happened on january 6th. the problem is that the law was drafted in the first place, in the face of essentially zero voter fraud in the 2020 election. so you just have to ask yourself, why in the world would they create this new law, even if it does expand voting in some areas and constricts it in
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others if you had georgia's own secretary of state repeatedly denying that there was widespread voter fraud in the last election. so the question you have to ask and the provision that concerns me the most where the state can actually step in and take over local election officials' decision-making process, the question you have to ask is, well, if there weren't any problems in the last election, what's the need for a new bill. here is the secretary of state of georgia last december. we've never found systemic fraud. we have over 250 cases right now. we reached out to the governor to we can finish up these elections really quickly, but right now we don't see anything that would overturn the will of the people here in georgia. >> he said what every trump judge said. he said what every trump justice said in court.
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trump-appointed. no widespread voter fraud. nobody found widespread voter fraud. and raffensperger, as secretary of state, has also been chair of the state board of elections. now the legislature that was criticizing him during the recounts is going to pick the chair of the board and a majority of the members. the secretary of state becomes a non-voting member. the state board is going to have the authority to take over local election boards under certain circumstances. again, my greatest concern and the concern of a lot of people. and last fall when georgia's governor faced pressure from president trump to intervene in vote counting, he said the secretary of state had the authority over elections cannot be overwritten. the new law gives some of that authority to the legislature, which has been under republican control now for almost two decades. that may be the scenario that president trump was looking for in other battleground states
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last fall. that's when trump invited top michigan republicans to the white house just days before the state certified its vote tally. but according to the ap, they told trump they had no authority when it came to awarding electoral votes. one final thing. critics have likened georgia's law to jim crow-era voting rules. >> i'm convinced that we'll be able to stop this because it is the most pernicious thing -- this makes jim crow look like jim eagle. this is gigantic, what they're trying to do. and it cannot be sustained. and i'm going to do everything in my power, along with my friend in the house and the senate to keep that from becoming the law. >> again, i understand the reaction to what happened on january 6th. i understand the skepticism on why georgia would change voting laws, and change voting laws when actually there was no
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widespread voter fraud just a month or two ago. but we need to be precise in our criticism. here's what jim crow era voting looked like in georgia. the state established a poll tax in 1871. and later added a requirement that citizens pay back taxes in order to vote. by one estimate, that cut black turnout in georgia in half. in 1907, georgia added a literacy test for voters. but a number of exemptions allowed white georgians to vote, even if they failed that test. not so for black voters. in the early 1900s, georgia's democratic party specifically blocked non-white voters from participating in their primaries. it does seem we're quite a way from jim crow 2.0. but let's bring in right now constitutional law, ned fully.
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a lot thrown at you. a lot thrown at americans right now, looking -- trying to sort through this georgia law. and my question to you is, does this georgia law look like, quote, jim crow 2.0, as its critics have suggested and that major league baseball has suggested or is it a bit more ambiguous? >> i think you're right. that was a great summary, by the way, and i would like to give it to my students, if that's okay. it really laid out all the details. so what i particularly liked is you focused on before and half, as well as side by side. what i mean by that is, there's two ways to look at a change in voting rules. and one is compared to what it was previously. and by that measure, there's a lot of different parts to this new bill some are expansions, meaning it's easier to vote if there's more days of early voting. some of it is a bit of a
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contraction. the rules on absentee voting, for example, while more generation than new york, are more restrictive than what georgia had previously and part of the reason why that before versus after comparison is important goes back to something you and i talked about previously, which is the shelby county decision from the u.s. supreme court. which referred to a part of the voting rights act, which was specifically about that before and after perspective. section five of the voting rights act said states weren't able to make changes to voting rules, like some of the ones in the south, without approving it wasn't making things worse off for the voters that previously experienced elections. so some of the provisions, i think, in the new georgia law do look a little bit worse off, particularly your point, like, why was it necessary? georgia ran a really good election in november of 2020. why make some of these changes? including the food and water change, in particular.
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on the other hand, if you don't take that before and after perspective and look side by side to new york and new jersey, georgia doesn't look so bad. so i do think it is a nuanced, multi-factor story that has multiple components. and i think you're absolutely right that the most dangerous feature of the law is the one that you pointed out to, which takes the power away from the incumbent secretary of state, who did such a good job for voter integrity and election integrity last year, when president trump asked for recount of the voting process, the secretary of state said, no, ewe do it properly. and it looks like this law is in part revenge for him standing up for the truth and fairness. and that's what's most worrisome to me. >> it really is worrisome. let's talk, though, state by
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state comparison. because i think major league baseball right now would probably be better off being based in minnesota or oregon or other states that don't have the restrictive voting laws that new york state has. new york state has just been seen as a nightmare. when i called my friend during 2020, even in the early voting, they all said the same thing. they said, listen, i want to vote. i really, really feel compelled to be a part of this election, but it's a three-hour wait. and i heard that time and time again. not only does new york have some of the most restrictive voting laws, they have some of the most restrictive ballot access laws for people who want to run for office. so talk about how new york, which actually only has limited absentee voting, while georgia actually has kept in place no excuse absentee voting, and have
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nine-day early voting days, compared to georgia's 17 early voting days at a mimd. talk about how major league baseball's argument, certainly, is made weaker by the fact that they are based in a state that has in some ways even more restrictive voting laws than georgia? >> well, that's absolutely true. it's been well known among election law scholars and practitioners that new york has been an outlier in a bad way, you know, for years. in terms of limited access to voting and really antiquated and old-fashioned voting. it used to be decades ago, the model was a single day of voting on an election day, with very limited vote-by-mail or absentee voting. but many other states around the country expanded in order to give voter more choice, more opportunity, without sacrificing integrity. >> ohio has done that, florida has done that, many other states have done that. but not new york.
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new york was behind the times as it were and still stuck to that very old-fashioned, very restrictive method. i think new york is finally trying to catch up a little bit, but again, you know, their expansion leaves them and new jersey's still leaves them with fewer days of early voting than many other states. >> all right. thank you so much. chair and constitutional law at the ohio state university, ned foalian. ned, i'll be very excited to tell mika that your cat joined in and was a co-star on that thought. >> i saw that. >> thank you so much, ned. hope to see you back soon. rev, let me bring you in here. going through the facts. talk about your biggest concern and how we balance some of these things out and i've just got to
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ask, based on what we're learning, because this is the first time that a lot of people really dug into new york. i know you probably spent your life trying to make new york a place where it's easier to vote or new jersey. other than working on new york also to expand their voting rights, what are your takeaways on this debate and do you think major league baseball did the right thing? >> i think that major league baseball did do the right thing. i think what was missing in a lot of the reporting is that the players began saying they did not want to play in georgia. and this was not just a corporate decision by major league baseball, the players were saying that based on the allegations unproven and untrue by donald trump, is why the georgia legislature went back in to change some of the things. if you compare georgia to new york, obviously, new york is --
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looks worse. and many of us have been fighting that for all of our careers, to open the doors in new york. but georgia went back in after already changing things. let's not forget, governor kemp had changed some things, his last race to beat stacey abrams. now you go back in again, because you want to react to what trump said. i think that is what escalated this, because you had just made certain changes. you had just closed certain voting sites. you had a done a number of changes in georgia in the last gubernatorial race that many of us felt was unfairly stacked against stacey. now you're incited by donald trump. you remove the secretary of state to where now, if donald trump could have called other people, he may have won the state of georgia. i think that's what escalated this. but in a comparison to new york wing they win. in a comparison to themselves, they would have to explain why
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do you keep changing the rules after each election? is it because the results are not what you say? and why are the rules always where it disproportionately impact, where it's been large black turnout? >> and eddie, if you look at the side-by-side comparisons of georgia and new york, the rev's right. in many instances, new york actually kparts unfavorably. the biggest question has gone to the intent of the legislature. why did the legislature go back in and change these voting rules when there was no evidence of widespread voting fraud. in many instances, georgia actually did expand voting, did expand other areas guaranteed for the first time, drop boxes.
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but again you have to go back and ask, why did they do this in the first place, when the secretary of state of georgia, trump-appointed judges in georgia, trump-appointed judges across the country all said the same thing. there was no widespread voter fraud. so what exactly were they trying to fix? >> that's the question and there's the historical backdrop. when we compared georgia to the state of new york. let's ask a basic question. i'm doing something that lawyers don't do. how often has new york been sued in terms of denying the voting rights of its minority citizens or black people and how often has georgia been sued in relation to that practice. and i think it's very important
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we're trying to extend good faith to the republican legislature. if you do that, you offer the kind of analysis that cohn has offered. but when we think about it as a kind of crude and crass political gesture, in life, not even a gesture, in light of what we just saw in the presidential election and in the senate runoff, we see this as a crude and kraz power gran on the part of the republican party. i'm talking about an earlier piece where early voting has expanded in a lot of small counties, but probably not in the most populist once. we talk about what's going on with the state election board and the suspension of county election officials and what that would mean for the democratic process. i could go through a whole range of other elements of that law which suggest that it wasn't passed in good faith. part of what i wanted to do is to understand for what it is.
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a crude and crass political act. i understand the polemics around the analogy. oftentimes we use jim crow as a way of calling attention what seems to be a cynical, racist action. and oftentimes that analogy, joe, does more harm. it obscures more than it illuminates. but what we need to understand is that this is a crude political -- i keep using that word, a crude and crass political act aimed at securing power on the part of white republican men in the state of georgia. >> so, let's -- charlie sykes, i read a good bit of nate cohn's article that a lot of people were talking about yesterday, where nate cohn said correctly, we don't know what turnout is going to be in 2022. and i say this as a republican. that have heard democrats complaining and republicans complaining for a quarter of a century about how turnout is
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going to be knocked down or affected by this voting law or that voting law and nobody really knows. how many days, weeks, months do we talk about the post office that were going to rig and fix this election and stop voter turnout? we had extraordinary voter turnout this election. so nate cohn's point, we don't know how this is going to turn out is correct. we'll know day after the 2020 election. but let's focus on two things. the first is, do people need to pull back when they're calling this law jim crow 2.0. is it hyperbole? is it doing more harm than good because it obscured other facts. the second thing is, did mlb, did major league baseball
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overreact were they just reacting to their players who said, we're not going to go play there, because as one person connected to major league baseball told me on friday, if you have one player who decides not to show up at the all-star game, then another player decides, then pretty soon you have things falling apart quickly. those two things, jim crow and major league baseball. is it jim crow 2.0? and did major league baseball overreact? >> so you've laid this out really well. and what was the intention of this legislation? you know, based on the donald trump big lie about an election that, in fact, was free, fair, and completely secure. he's absolutely right about this. the other real concern ought to be about whether or not this does politicize the system and whether or not this makes it easier for republicans to overturn the 2024 election. the retaliation against brad
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raffensperger is a real red flag in this legislation. having said that, there's no need to guild the lily then, if you look at the intention and the possible implications of this, you don't need to engage in the over-the-top rhetoric like jim crow 2.0. jim crow was a very specific things. it was -- and you laid out what it was. this bill has a lot of flaws. but i think the danger of over the top rhetoric is the risk of discrediting the attacks. and you're seeing this right now, the blowback by the republicans is more that you're misrepresenting this bill. and governor kemp, and i'm not a fan, lays out the differences between the georgia law and the new york law and my concern is that what's happening is is that some of the critics are losing
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their credibility and will make it harder, not easier to fight against some of these voter suppression laws across the country. and when you go to defcon 1 or defcon 5, i always get those confused, and say, this is jim crow 2.0, where do you go when you have an overt attempt to overturn elections or an overt attempt to suppress the election. the concerns are legitimate enough without going so far as to say that a jim crow 2.0, that it actually makes it easier to vote earlier. mlb, did that go too far? i think it's going to be interesting, where are they going to go now, considering that some of these other states also have voter i.d. requirements. also have limited early access. what i think is interesting is watching the limited number of
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senators and congressmen that are reacting to this by threatening legislative retaliation. we're in a new era right now, where republicans have decided to blend together their anti-corporate class warfare, culture war into one bundle. and they're going to be focused on going after companies and businesses, threatening their tax breaks, threatening the anti-trust exemption of major league baseball. this is going to be a very interesting new era. how far are they going to be willing to use government power to punish private entities that take political positions they don't like? >> it's interesting, also, it seems a lot of these georgia legislatures, they don't understand the 4 other states. i'm sure jacksonville, florida, would love to have coca-cola in their city limits. i saw it in connecticut. there were legislatures that kept insulting general electric.
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you know what general electric did? they moved to boston. so again, it seems a little shortsighted, but we'll see. it is interesting, though, as we talk about the all-star game that the governor was talking about stacey abrams, that mlb listened to stacey abrams. actually, no, mlb did not listen stacey abrams, because stacey abrams wanted the mlb game to stay in atlanta, asked mlb to keep it in atlanta. the same thing with john ossoff and ralph warnock. they all said, please, don't take this game out of atlanta. let's have the spotlight on this voting law by having the all-star game here. it's a better opportunity and don't hurt people in this city. a lot of people in georgia wish they had listened to stacey abrams and the two democratic senators. adrienne elrod, let's talk about
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the provision that i think causes most concerns to most people who do see this as a power grabby republicans. and that is, where you're allowing the state legislature to take over and step in for the secretary of state. and step in for local election officials. i know you and i and so many people remember what was happening in michigan, where that young republican election official that kept getting intimidated and knocked around, because they wanted him to cheat. and he refused to cheat. and they couldn't step in. the same thing happened in georgia. the same thing happened across the country with donald trump and other republicans right to intimidate these local officials. talk about the danger of the georgia law in respect to allowing this state legislature to step in and actually make
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decisions for the secretary of state and even local officials. >> well, joe, this is really the dangerous path that a law, like this, that was just passed in georgia will create for other states. that's the fundamental thing here. now that this law has passed in georgia, we're seeing other states like arizona, states that held republican-led legislatures that will focus on passing a similar law. make no mistake, this is a systemic effort that republicans are taking across the country to try to restrict the rights of voters. and yes, of course, governor kemp comes forward and says, there's actually a couple of things that this law does to expand the rights of voters. and i'm so glad, joe, that you in the show took this segment to where you did, because it's so important to look at the full picture. when you take a 30,000-foot view and take a step back, it's important to keep in mind that this is an effort republicans are taking across the country to make it that much harder for people to vote, which is why we got a look at the questions.
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why in the world is georgia trying to change their state law on this when there was no voter fraud that was found. why are we turning anything over to the power politicians, whether you're a democrat or a republican. of course, in this case, it really is the republicans that are doing this. and why are we trying to do anything to reject or make it difficult for voters to vote. even if there are some areas that are expanded, the fact that there are many areas that are restricted in this law, why are we doing anything like that in this day and age, when we should only be trying to expand the right for people to vote. >> all right. adrienne elrod, thank you so much, as always. charlie sykes, eddie glad jr., thank you, as well. we're going to have more on this coming up next hour. we're going to be speaking to georgia's lieutenant governor, geoff duncan. also, the vice chair of the minority caucus in the georgia house of representatives, erica thomas. now to the "new york times" investigation that shows scores of former president trump supporters unknowingly donated a
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lot more money to his campaign than they wanted to. "the times" spoke with several trump supporter who is thought they'd signed up to send a single small-dollar donation. instead, they saw thousands and thousands of dollars siphoned from their accounts. with us now, let's bring in the author of that investigative piece, "new york times" national political reporter, shane goldmacher. thank you so much for being here. man that story is heavy. and i mean it in this respect. when you started with the poor man who was in hospice who wanted to contribute to donald trump. i'm sure he thought, you know what, i'm in hospice, but i really want to help this guy, i want to take part in this election. and once he did, suddenly, more and more money kept getting withdrawn. he didn't know what to do. his family didn't know what to do. and that story was repeated time and time again.
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people having to shut down their bank accounts, their credit cards. people having all of their money siphoned out by the trump campaign. talk about it, if you will, and tell me, where did you first hear about the story? what got you on to this story? >> at the center of this is the fact that the trump campaign last fall, while facing their own financial hardships, began pre-checking boxes to start withdrawing donations from their supporters every single week until the election. and at one point, they actually extended the date to december 14th, to weeks beyond the election. and so for these pre-checked boxes, that means you had to wade through a bunch of fine print, which became more longer and complicated as finances worsened for the trump campaign. and if you didn't uncheck those boxes, you were opted in. and that kind of design, which
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critics have called dark patterns, entrapped tons of supporters of president trump. and you can see it based on a few things. "a," there were the individuals impacted. which their stories can be really heartbreaking. but at scale, at the end of the campaign or at the end of last year, the trump operation, all of their republican committees had refunded more than 10% of every dollar that they had raised online through this website called winred, which is the donation process for the republican party. 10% of every dollar they raised, which added up to more than $122 million. and to compare, the biden operation had a refund rate of about 2.2%. it's not even close to each other. and that rate was even higher at the end, when they did these pre-check boxes every week. you saw this massive refund rate, a surge of phone calls to credit card companies where people said, i'm a victim of
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fraud. i don't know what happened here. why is winread and the trump campaign taking money out of their account every seven days. people get their credit card bill and if they gave $200, they see six charges, it's $1,200. or you can see 15 charges on your credit card. >> really, your article really helped explain some things that were happening and connected some dots. you had donald trump falling behind joe biden not having the money that biden had in the lead up to the actual election, being angry because there weren't adds up in michigan or other swing states. they started getting really aggressive and used these underhanded tactics, that we continue to withdraw money from contributors' accounts. so then they had, after the election, they had -- he used the money, of course, this is so
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trumpian. he used the money to get through election day. and after the election, they had to start refunding money, so where does he get the money to do that, from all of his urges and pleadings to his people to send money to stop the steal. explain how that happened and how that worked out from donald trump. >> all of the supporter who is had these donations recured every week, this money went right into the trump campaign's bank account. and they were struggling financially in october. they had millions of dollars more in television ads booked entering the last month than they had dollars on hand. now, after the election, they began refunding more and more of this money. people got their credit card bill. let's say you were opted into this every week in the beginning of%. got your credit card bill early in november, you would say, hey, what is this? and winred did for the most part did give people refunds when
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they asked for them. but when they did, that meant a bunch of money coming back out of the trump campaign coffers. if you look after election day, while the president was making these charges, these unfounded charges that this election was stolen from him, he was raising tens of millions of dollars from his supporters. far more of that money went to paying off refunds than it did to the legal fight that he was engaged in in november and december. and that's a big deal, right? this is how his supporters were told to give money after the election and this is how it was actually spent. >> all right. "new york times" national political reporter, shane goldmacher, thank you so much for being with us. an important piece. we really do appreciate it. with us now, washington anchor for bbc world news, katty kay, steve ratner and white house reporter for the associated press and huge boston red sox fan, jonathan lemire. reverend al sharpton still with us, as well.
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well, you know, jonathan, can we take the jonathan shot? you can see a-rod being mugged by varitek in that picture. that's exactly what the other yolos did to us. >> perhaps 2022 will be a brighter season. it is just three games, of course, but extraordinarily disappointing. and we were texting about this yesterday. this is a team that is coming off two straight really terrible seasons, underwhelming seasons, that has had a pr disaster of trading their best player, a generational talent in muky betts and has had a real fan revolt. if there was ever a team that needed to get off a good start, it was this one. to go 0-3 at home swept by the lowly orioles is about as disappointing as it comes, even if it is in front of only 12%
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capacity. i'm sure those fans were disappointed, including the scarborough boys. >> you know what, we were just happy to be there. happy to be at fenway. >> okay. >> happy to have the sun hitting on our faces. it's the simple pleasures, jonathan lemire. we've been fact checking the georgia law, but i'm sorry, you were all boston fan. i hate to remind you of this, but there are 159 games remaining. we still have a long way to go, jonathan. but be that as it may, i had talked about boston, driving through boston and the place is just still essentially shut down. talking to a 55-year-old boston fan who had open heart surgery a couple of months ago, had a stroke. he's six to eight to nine weeks away from getting his first vaccine. they're practically handing it out on street corners and other states for people in that
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position. i exaggerate a little bit, but still, if you're 55 years old and you just had open heart surgery and you had a stroke, chances are good you've already had a vaccine in most states. i don't want to just pick on boston and massachusetts. i do wonder, though, what the biden administration's position is on cities like boston opening up when you have one out of three americans who have already had their vaccination. there has to be a middle ground, as i said before. between miami beach and boston. >> joe, first of all, you're right. long season to go. my boys andry glad the red sox are back as well. governor baker in the early days received good marks for how they handled the virus. but he's come under real
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criticism for the vaccine rollout. my parents are in massachusetts in their 70s and they have just now gotten to their vaccine. and those are questions that the state is still facing. and the biden administration is hitting this pivot point very soon where their focus will need to be about how it encourages reopening. where to this point, its public messaging is still on the side of being cautious. we are seeing a rise of cases in some states. we know the dangers of these variants. and that is where this administration has chosen to focus its public messaging on stay safe, stay safe, be careful. that said, they also, of course, rightly, are touting the number of vaccines that are going out the door every day. records every day. there's real progress there and they know in the weeks ahead, pressure is mounting to make sure more and more schools reopen, for partial in-person learning. and indeed, changing the
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narrative here about how the country can get back to work, get back to normal. and right now, advisers i've talked to are a little leery of doing that just yet, because of the rise in cases, because of these variants. i think they feel, advisers feel that the nation needs to weather the storm for a few more weeks, another month or so, and then, certainly, as the weather warms up, we turn to summer, the vaccine distribution is that much further along, then the conversation changes to going back to normal. >> steve, you have charts for us on how the country's vaccine rollout, where they are getting the vaccine regularly is impacting america's economic recovery. what have you got? >> yeah, joe, apropos the comments you made at the top of the show and again now, you are seeing recovery, but seeing it in a very disparate way across the country. i can show you a couple of different ways of looking at this. the first way to look at this is in terms of people going out to restaurants and what you can see on this chart, the dark red line
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shows you the national trend. and you can see at the beginning of the year, of last year, we drop to absolutely zero. and we've been climbing our way back ever since. and you can see in the middle of the chart, when the second wave hit and people started going into lockdown again, i marked when the first vaccines were available. not that that instantly changed the game. but as it happens, the red line started turning up. and now we're running about on a national basis, about 25% below where we were before the pandemic. but there are enormous regional disparities. the turquoise line toward the boston is new york and we are running now at more than 60% below normal levels. but you look at florida and if i put texas on here, it would look almost the same. we're actually running ahead of we were a year ago. you have these very significant regional disparities, even as we
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are generally headed toward a path of reopening. another measure of looking at this thing is in terms of people flying. going to airports, passing through tsa airports and getting on planes. this shows the first three months of each year. the dotted blue line at the top is 2019. but basically, it is very steady. the red line is what happened last year. where we went from essentially a similar pattern down to zero and the dark blue line is us coming back. and at the beginning of the year, we were running more than 50% below normal levels and today we're running about less than 40% below normal levels. and on easter weekend this past weekend, 1.6 million people passed through tsa, which is a new record for this period. and i don't have it here, but if i would show you a map of the united states and where people were traveling, you would see them traveling in the south, in
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texas, in the rocky mountains. and you would see them traveling not so much on the east coast, on the west coast, and in the upper midwest. there are these big, regional disparities. but on a hopeful sign, as you know, we had unemployment numbers on friday that blew out expectations. and this is part of a trend that economists have been following of gradually improving their economic forecasts. and so, if you start over on the left, you can see that gulf coast goldman sachs was expecting a 6.2 unemployment rate in this year and the difference between the red bars and the blue bars is the way they have been improving their forecast, largely because of the georgia election, frankly, the election of joe biden and his ability to get these covid packages and the infrastructure package, perhaps, through congress. and the material effect that that will have on the economy. and so in 2021 of this year, they thought unemployment at the end of the year would be over 5%. they now think it's more like 4%.
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and as you continue to go, the most important point is that before georgia, before biden, they thought we would not get back to pre-pandemic unemployment levels until 2024 and now it looks like we believe they'll get back there in 2022, two years earlier. and they have similarly robust projections for gdp. the newest number is up 8% this year, which is a stunning number compared to the 5.6% that they were predicting before. but i would just end on one last cautionary note, which is that even with all of these great jobs numbers, we still brought back 63% of the jobs we've lost. so hopefully we'll get there next year some time, but we still have a ways to go in that process. joe? >> well steve, just to put a little bit of nuance on those last numbers, you kept talking about after the georgia runoff, after what joe biden has been able to do legislatively, you
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and i both believe that with the economy set to grow at 3.75%, even without a covid relief bill from the biden administration, that the $2 trillion price tag actually was most likely at least our tastes, too high. not targeted enough. and could possibly lead to inflation as well as bigger debt, right? >> yes, in a perfect world, i would have done that $1.9 trillion bill a bit differently. i would have made it smaller and targeted. it does send checks to 85% of americans. i'm not sure 85% of americans were actually adversely affected by the pandemic. so it's a little bit of an example of not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. it will do some good, but it is far from perfect. and of course, we now have coming a $2.25 trillion bill on top of that, which is supposed to be fully financed by raising
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corporate taxes, but you and i also both know what happens when things get to congress. and things that are theoretically fully financed. and by the way, this bill would spend the money over eight years, but the tax revenues would come in over 15 years. it's hard to say it's actually really paid for itself, anyway. but as we know, when you get to congress, strange things happen. so the bottom line is, yes, we are pouring an enormous amount of stimulus into this economy, perhaps more than prudence would suggest is right. >> all right. steve rattner, thank you. greatly appreciated. appreciate the charts. katty kay, i've been getting on to boston a little bit about reopening and about vaccinations, but if they want to feel good about themselves, all they have to do is look at the eu. another article in "the new york times" this morning about how the leadership of the eu's reputation has been shattered over their poor performance on vaccines over the past year. >> yeah, i mean, the u.s. is a
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much, much better both in terms of the amount of people who have been vaccinated and the lifestyle we're having in the eu, pretends in places like france and italy, they are in total lockdown at the moment. italy went into complete lockdown because of the easter weekend. they wanted to make sure people didn't start moving around. france in a similar position and most other european countries, as well. there is nothing happening in those countries. people are being forced to stay back in their homes. it's as we were a year ago. because they haven't vaccinated and the spread of those more dangerous variants, the south african variant and the brazilian variant are more widespread. the most interesting country for the u.s. to look to is the uk, where we've got good vaccination rates similar to those here in the united states, but we've also in the uk had a very strict lockdown in place since the beginning of the new year. it's just starting to ease up
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this month and being done in a very phased way. and one of the ways they're going to ease up and let people out and start, you know, socializing again and living a normal life again is by giving everybody access to two free rapid tests a week. and that way, they hope they can spot an outbreak fast and clamp down on that small outbreak in a local way, if it happens. and i think america is going to have to keep an eye on things like that. you've got such mixed messaging coming from public health officials at the moment. the head of the cdc saying she's worried about impending doom. other top health officials like scott gottlieb saying, well, actually, we don't think it's going to be that bad, because we have a higher vaccination rate. so even the health officials aren't clear about just how bad a surge could be. and i think that has to be sort of road maps and safety nets in place as the country does open up. >> boy, i couldn't agree more. and again, you know, n-95 masks,
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social distancing, proper ventilation, certainly would help a lot of restaurants, a lot of small businesses that have been suffering across the country to open up faster. but you are right, scott gottlieb not agreeing with some of the biden administration conclusions that suggest that we're going to have another huge wave coming at us. gottlieb, who's been right a lot more than he has been wrong over the past year says he doesn't see that next wave coming. so last hour, we did a deep dive on the georgia election law, that comes after major league baseball announced on friday that it would be moving the upcoming all-star game from atlanta to a ballpark in another state. in a minute, we'll be talking to georgia's lieutenant governor, geoff duncan. he recently wrote an op-ed in "usa today," in favor of the new georgia voting law. but first bring in minority caucus vice chair in the georgia house of representatives, erica thomas. also with us for this discussion, we have political reporter for the atlanta journal
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constitution, greg bluestein. and greg had told us that he was on vacation and didn't have a suit. and i said, greg, this ain't "nightline." i wear a sweater like 85% of the time. so thank you, gregg, we really appreciate you taking the time out from your vacation. it means a lot to us. representative thomas, let's start with you and i'll start with the big question that a lot of democratic officials are being asked right now, and that is, do you support major league baseball's decision to move the all-star game out of atlanta? >> yes, i do support the decision. i wish that it would have came before the bill was passed into law, of course. >> we see a lot of different businesses speaking out right now, but we wish that they would have spoke before they put the pen to signing that bill into law. >> i'm sure you've seen a lot of
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comparisons where georgia's new voting law compares favorably to new york state to new jersey when it come to early voting, when it comes to no-excuse absentee voting. what's your response to those who are suggesting that in some ways new jersey's law is more expansive than new york. >> this omnibus bill is egregious. there is no way that you can dissect this bill and think that it's a good bill. in 2016, we had 2.4 million voters to come out in a presidential election and in 2020, it was over 4 million. it is 64% higher than the last presidential election. we should not be limiting anything when it comes to our voters and their rights.
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we should be helping people that do more. and not a state election takeover. >> greg is with us and has a question for you representative. greg? >> yeah, representative, a number of democratic elected leaders are cautioning boycotts. some activists are pushing for them. do you think boycotts against other businesses that haven't opposed this elections law is an effective way to oppose this bill? >> well, again, like i just said, at this point, after bill is already put into law swb, it's great people are speaking up and speaking out. but at the same time, we need their voices on time before these bills are passed into law. now, we do not want anyone, any of my constituencies to lose their jobs. that is not what we want. but we also do want these businesses to have a strong voice at the table, because we all know that this battle is
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really won outside of the house of representatives. because we are not in the majority. >> republicans seem to be spoiling for this fight and welcome the possibility of blaming democrats to the economic follow-up. even governor kemp is already blaming stacey abrams. how do democrats counter that narrative? >> you can't blame us for not even giving us a seat at the table. this has nothing to do with democrats being -- encouraging businesses not to be there. georgia republicans love supporting drop boxes until they start losing. so let's be real. this is not about fraudulent votes. this is about getting rid of democratic votes. and we won't stand for that the people need to be able to speak. we should not be speaking for the people. >> all right. state representative erica thomas, thank you so much for being with us. we really do appreciate it and hope you will come back very
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soon. let's bring in right now georgia's lieutenant governor, geoff duncan. lieutenant governor duncan, thank you so much for being with us. why don't we start with the $64,000 question that critics of this legislation and now this law have brought up, which is, why -- wlafs the need for a bill that champkd georgia's voting laws when you had the secretary of state and federal judges saying, there was no widespread voter fraud? what was the purpose of it? >> i think that is the $64 million question. and the realities of this is the legislative process actually worked. there was some -- in my opinion, not so good ideas flew in early in the legislative process. the committee process in both chambers worked on getting something that was much better and more agreeable. it included bipartisan ideas and it ultimately was the final passage of the bill. but here's the problem. the reality is the outside
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fringes have controlled the messaging on this. the far right somehow thinks that this is some sort of chess move in response to donald trump's misinformation for ten weeks. and the left is screaming and hollering that this is, you know, some sort of massive voter suppression. i think the real problem with this is the timing. you know, the timing of this obviously something that has not sat well with folks on all sides of this issue. and certainly, that's the price we're paying right now. >> so i just want to say for viewers that are watching, from what i've read, lieutenant governor, and please correct me if i'm wrong. you actually stepped in and opposed the no-sunday voting provisions. also stepped in and opposed the provisions that would have gotten rid of no-excuse absentee voting. i'm asking this question for a reason. that is, do you think that the
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view of this bill may have been disproportionately shaped by what the initial con tours of the bill were before it went through the legislative process. before you raised your objections to no-sunday voting and also no excuses absentee voting? >> yeah, absolutely. this dye was cast after ten weeks of misinformation from former president donald trump. there's no way to not point to that. but i went over the weekend and watched a couple of different videos of rudy giuliani when he showed up in some state senate and house sessions before we started our session. it was cringe worthy to listen to those conspiracy theories and just rmd ideas that he was bringing forward. that really was the genesis and that's where the messaging got set up. it's unfortunate. look, i speak directly to republicans. the quicker we can stop talking about or relitigating that election and move on and turn the page to a gop 2.0, that's
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the best step forward for us. >> greg bluestein is with us and has a question for you, lieutenant governor. >> i want to ask a follow up on that. because you talk about this a lot. bringing about a gop 2.0 in georgia. but your calls for republicans to move on from trump is falling on deaf ears, including in the state senate where you preside over. how do you convince fellow republicans to move on from president trump? >> i think we've got to be consistent. we've got to work hard. and it's got to be bigger than georgia, greg. this has got to be a national movement. and if we're going to try to gain ground in the midterms and try to regain in white house in 2024, it's got to start here and now. georgia has found ourselves in the center of the spotlight, so i'll definitely try to do all we can do to put it on display here. but gop 2.0 isn't a new party, it's a better direction forward. it's one of the things that
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doubles down on what we do well as republicans. and the most interesting data point that we can point to in georgia is that 53.7% of republicans voted for a republican state senator, and all the while president trump lost here in georgia. that proves that folks were paying attention and didn't like the candidate on the ballot. >> your stance here in georgia has meant a lot of blowback for your re-election hopes. do you plan to stand for another term as lieutenant governor next year? >> we're going to work hard to continue to push this message forward. we just ended our general assembly session. and i've got three beautiful kids and an awesome wife, who we'll reconnect here in the next couple of weeks and figure out the best direction forward for geoff duncan. >> lieutenant governor, it seems that republicans and democrats are beating up on delta airlines, who, by the way, was one of the airlines that was the most responsible during the pandemic. and grateful for how responsible they were, as far as their seating. they lost a lot of money doing what they did.
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also, republicans and democrats alike are beating up on coca-cola. and now major league baseball. are you concerned that coca-cola and delta airlines, if they continue to get harassed by republicans and democrats alike, they could in time look elsewhere for a place to base their businesses. >> i think it's up to companies and corporations to make the best decisions they can for their customers and their shareholders. and ultimately, those are the folks that will hold them accountable. if they're making good decisions, i think their shareholders and their customers will respond well and to the flip side. and so look, this is an important period of time for us here in georgia. i may not agree what baseball did, but at the end of the day, that was their decision to make. and i respect the owners and the players and the commissioner's office for coming to what i'm sure was a tough decision. the people i really feel sorry
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for are the stadium workers. these are some tough decisions and certainly, i wish we were in a different place than we are right now. i'll continue to put our best foot forward, continue to looking for high-paying quality jobs to come to georgia. continue to invite businesses to invest here in georgia and invest in our future. >> lieutenant governor, the part of the bill -- final question and thank you for your time -- the part of the bill that concerns the most people, it seems to me is where the state legislature can take over not only what the secretary of state is doing, they're going to, but also can take over what local election officials are doing. we saw in georgia, we saw in michigan, we saw in other states donald trump leaning on state legislatures to lean on local officials to stop them from doing their job. how do you -- how does governor kemp, how do other republicans
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guarantee that that sort of thing won't happen in 2024, now that this bill has passed? >> well, you certainly hope we never have to see anything ever again in this state play out like it did. the pressure put on folks, to think a president of the united states is making individual calls to state senators, to election secretary of state workers, investigatorinvestigat it's just wild to even think. but certainly, i hope that isn't the case. i hope we're able to put on another fair, legal election. and i'm one of those leaders who think, the more people who vote, the better chance we've got. governor kemp has done a great job at balancing lives and livelihoods. these are tough decisions and he's going a great job and i think republicans and folks in the middle will reward him for that. >> georgia's lieutenant governor, geoff duncan, thank you so much. we really appreciate your time. so, reverend sharpton, we've been talking now for about an
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hour and a half about -- off and on, about this georgia law, about major league baseball's decision about the battles going back and forth between coca-cola and delta and republicans and democrats. what is your takeaway -- what needs to be done at this point to ensure there are free and fair elections in 2023 and 2024, not just in georgia, but across the country? >> the takeaway i have, i was in the supreme court when they argued shelby versus helda, which was really when they changed the voting rights act. and i think that we are looking at a lot of reaction, because there are no national standards around voting. i was reading frank watkins
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saying, georgia shows why we need hr-1 to pass, which is now senate bill laugh. we have national standards that would correct new york and georgia. you must remember looking at history, joe, that the way they undermined reconstruction in the 14th and 15th amendments was in 1983, they gave state rights to voting. we've got to get back to where there's national standards, everyone goes by the same scorecard, and what georgia did, by giving this by bringing this away from the secretary of state, by the timing of it, and by arresting a georgia legislature while knocking on the door while kemp was signing the bill in a room with all white men under the picture of a plantation, all of that is what led to what the major league baseball and in my opinion, players started saying about many of us nationally did, because the perception was that we were going back to an era that we had fought to come out
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of. >> all right, rev. thank you so much. we'll, of course, be talking to you all week about the trial in minneapolis. let's pray that all goes well there. greg bluestein, i want to finish up with you. so what's your takeaway, just from what you've head this morning, but all of the back and forth over the past week or two, where is this story going in georgia? >> i think this is the first of a domino effect. mayor keisha lance bottoms of atlanta said the same thing. she said she feels like there will be other businesses or events that might pull out of atlanta or georgia because of this. and governor kemp over the weekend said he is spoiling for a fight. it's worth economic backlash, worth the lawsuits and worth more cancellations. and he is trying to pin the blame on democrats. so you see in my view, at least,
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democrats won kind of the first battle. they've won the narrative overall over this measure for the first few months. they were on tv. they were on social media really promoting their views of this legislation. and now republicans are trying to push back and trying to pin the blame on this economic fallout on democrats. so they're going to be -- georgia is going to be in the spotlight for the next few months, for sure, over this voting elections law. >> quite some time. all right, gregg bluestein, thank you so much for being with us on vacation. we appreciate it very much. and still ahead on "morning joe," former president trump's grip on republicans is still growing. that's what ed luce argues in his latest piece and ed joins us next. you're watching "morning joe" and we'll be right back. you're watching or"mning joe" and we'll be right back.
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beautiful day in new york. and with us, politics and
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journalism professor at morgan state university, politics editor at the grio and msnbc political contributor, jason johnson. also with us, u.s. national editor at the "financial times," ed luce, who writes in its latest piece that, quote, trump's grip on the republican party is still growing. quote, trump showed that in 2016 that embracing big government was no obstacle to becoming his party's nominee. the libertarian impulse is barely perceptible among today's republican voters. many of whom are happy with bidenonomics. the party's energy is thus increasingly spent on cultural resentment. the party will sound as if it revials wall street even as it blocks attempts to raise the capital gains tax. it will be anti-corporate in word, but pro-wl narrow in deed. plk on the air waves, but protective of offshore tax shelters in practice.
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the party of law and order that insists the 2020 election was stolen. for biden to stand down in 2024, republicans would find it easier to depict harris or almost any other candidate as the quote anti-american democrat they crave. trump looks likely to hang around for just such an opening. and ed, here's a line. the party's energy is thus increasingly spent on cultural resentment. more than half of republican voters support the use of force to defend, quote, the traditional american way of life. which of course is a radical, radical departure from the traditional way of life. >> it is, indeed. if you look back on why trump lost, there's one of two ways you can go.
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the obvious way is the man himself was the problem. and that therefore, he needs to be replaced and the other way of looking at it, which is the way the party has gone is that january the 6th was fake news. it wasn't an insurrection. it's either been exaggerated or it was an antifa operation. a ron johnson explanation for what happened on january 6th. a radical left attempt to discredit trump. that's the way the party has gone. they had a moment after january the 6th and after trump's second impeachment to pause, reappraise where the party was going and what it was, and they've squandered that moment. they've doubled down on trump. moderates like rob portman aren't going to run again. other moderates are being challenged by trumpians in the
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primary. liz cheney, of course. so the party is doubling down on trump. . and what does that mean? that means we're not going to get conservative critiques of deficit spending, you know, trump kblirl that up with his un-funded tax cut in 2017. we're going to get culture wars and a much more sort of intense trumpism over next couple of years and possibly beyond. >> jason johnson, jonathan lemire is with us and has a question for you. jonathan? >> hey, jason. we're hearing more and more from the former president in the form of these press releases. he is clearly trying to stay viable and relevant and shape the party. but questions persist whether he actually will take the plunge and run again and some of those close to him have their doubts,
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but no decision has been made. let's take's ed premise as right and trumpism is here to stay. but let's say it's not president trump who takes the mantle. who do you see within the party as inheriting that and going forward and emerging perhaps as the trumpian candidate or candidates in 2024? >> so i want to tackle another one of his premises, too. joe biden is not stepping down. i don't care if you have to play "weekend at bernie's," joe biden is not going to step down from running for president in 2024 as long as he's remotely ambulatory. this idea that the republicans would be able to face off against vice president harris is ridiculous at this point. it's going to be desantis or josh hawley or i think ted cruz will run again. there are plenty of trumpians that will come forward in 2024 and try to stake their claim. but what we have seen so far, and greetings in missouri might be a good indicator of this, is that trumpism doesn't seem to work for anybody long-term, except donald trump. i may disagree with everything
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donald trump ever did. i may think that he was a white nationalist, that he mismanaged covid, that he was corrupt. but he did have a certain charisma that none of these other trumpians have. none of them do. nobody likes ted cruz, nobody trusts josh hawley. he reminds you of the kid the that ran for student council president 12 times. and donald trump didn't have that. i see these other people trying, but i don't think any of them will be effective against joe biden, who i still believe will be the democratic candidate in 2024. >> and katty, i know you've got a question for ed louis. but i just can't help it since jason brought up josh hawley's name and ted cruz's name. it fits in wonderfully with ed piece piece today talking about how these republican populists rail against wall street, but protect a low capital gains tax rate. they rail against corporate interests, but are fighting, of
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course, to make sure that no corporate taxes go up. and you go down the line and look at josh hawley, who i read yesterday, his father was a banker. he, you know, went to yale. then he went to stanford. then he clerked for the supreme court for the chief justice of the supreme court. you could say the same thing about princeton boy ted cruz, harvard boy ted cruz. these guys playing the role of populist, it's such a joke, and yet they keep trying to do it every day. >> and the crowning moment of that was cpac when you had one after the other. i think literally ted cruz had come back from the ritz carlton in cancun and started railing against country club republicans, with a leader who lives in a country club that he actually owns. that's been fun to watch. but i guess the extension of what you're saying about how
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trump has the republican party kind of lock, stock, and barrel, still, is that trump has also between from the republican party the winning philosophy of small government conservatism that they had. when they signed up to trumpism, they also threw that out the window. and now they find themselves in a position where they don't have a philosophy that they can win on. they fall back on the cultural issues. but they've also got to fall back on what we've been talking about all this program, which is what's happening in georgia. if you can't win on an idea, because you've thrown that out, in order to support trump, you've also then just got to restrict voting even further to the people that you know are going to vote for you and try to exclude as many of the people on the other side. but you haven't got that idea anymore. they've let that idea go. >> yeah, it's the approach that if you don't like the people, you dissolve them and get
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another. the old quote that too many people voted last november. that is the other lesson. so this is the sort of proof in the pudding is in the eating. that this coordinated drive across the country to do what georgia has done, so many other states have got very similar bills that are going to be enacted soon. is a doubling down on trump's view. and trump's view is that there was fraud and the premise of these bills is that there is fraud. the culture stuff, though, is i think the most worrying. we're now closer to marine la pen's far right party in france. the republicans are moving closer to white nationalism than they are to the traditional christian democrat center-right party in the rest of europe, or indeed to what the republicans used to be -- perhaps pretended they used to be. this is far more overt. and it's deeply worrying.
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when they say we are a party of the working class, there's a word missing there, which is white. that's an implicit word that we all hear, when josh hawley says we're a party of the working class. that's trumpianism on steroids. >> and we've been talking about georgia all morning. you actually have a governor there, governor kemp, who many have considered -- his opponents have certainly considered him to be extreme on many issues, dead wrong on covid. you have a lieutenant governor who we just had on, who many people are questioning whether he can ever win a republican primary again, because he was critical of donald trump, in the post-2020 election. it really has become a personality cult of sorts for a leader who, again, as i've said before, his voter may not have been fascist, but the you look at what donald trump said and
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did through january the 6th, my gosh, he certainly fits the definition of a fascist for a lot of people. just look it up on wikipedia. and i fear that the party, my former party, will continue to be under his sway for far too long. ed luce, we're going to be reading your new column for the fascinate times. thank you so much. and jason, i wanted to ask you about georgia. we've been talking about it for about an hour and a half. there seems to be a debate among georgia officials. representative thomas believed that major league baseball made the right decision. of course, stacey abrams and the two democratic senators said they thought the all-star game should have stayed in atlanta. i'm curious, what's your thought about mlb's decision and also about the debate in general around this georgia law? >> so this is -- joe, i'm glad you asked that, because this is
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really, really important to understand, especially given what greg bluestein said and this notion of narrative. the top elected officials and wannabe elected officials in georgia have said, they didn't want to boycott and wish mlb didn't to that. they told people not to boycott after the 2018 gubernatorial election, which brian kemp very likely rigged. it so needs to be very, very clear publicly that these elected officials aren't calling for this. that being said, the republicans are of course going to try to blame the democrats on it, because it's brian kemp's fault. brian kemp knew people were unhappy about this. brian kemp knew that this was going to be a problem. and contextually, remember, this is the same guy who got into a fight with delta three years ago, about abortion laws. about guns. they seem to want to keep picking fights with the largest employers in the state. as far as major league baseball goes, look, if they thought it was a bad idea to go to the state because of the politics
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around it, that's perfectly fine. we've seen that in north carolina. we saw that about gay marriage, ncaa in illinois. we saw that with major league baseball in arizona several years ago with immigration law. what these governors have to recognize is that playing politics with human annoys and offends sports leagues. that's the consequence that they're facing. this is not an argument about some simple partisan issue. this is a fundamental element of democracy. the national leagues decided they will be good citizens. the braves are dumb for criticizing this decision. they should have been quiet. this is beyond our ability to control. at some point, we have to realize this is the fault of brian kemp. he is desperate to keep his job. brian kemp wants to make sure he stays in office. i don't think he will. no matter how many bills he tries to pull off, it doesn't mean he will save himself or a republican party that thinks he is a betrayer to that which they
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worship, donald trump. >> thanks a lot. what we are learning about friday's attack at the u.s. capitol that left an officer dead. the new warning from the head of the capitol police. kasie hunt will be with us with that reporting. "morning joe" will be right back. comfortable, protected, and undeniably sleek. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you. i think the sketchy website i bought this turtle from stole all of my info. ooh, have you looked on the bright side? discover never holds you responsible for unauthorized purchases on your card. (giggling) that's my turtle. fraud protection. discover. something brighter.
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it's time for nbc sports soccer analyst, roger bennett. i was sitting on saturday morning with the joey scarborough. i'm a liverpool fan. i never cheer against chelsea, at least in my boy's presence. i must say, i was shocked by what was happening.
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a runaway beer truck running over chelsea. who saw that coming, roger? one of the worst teams in the league against one of the best. >> it was like a march madness number one being mo mowed down. should we look at the carnage in the premiere league is back like a tag team hip hop duo in an insurance commercial. scoop, there it is. undefeated in 15 games against bottom feeders west brom. 22-year-old hershey, pennsylvania, america. first goal since december, an easter miracle. the game would change.
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what followed? as close as we may come to witnessing rome being stormed. what can only be called a fever dream. look at this man. that's the west brom manager. no one is more shocked than that man. what a loss for chelsea football club. >> i don't know where to go from there. let's go to liverpool. liverpool and united needing big wins. >> defending champion liverpool, fresh off $750 million of investment. in part from lebron james, now a co-owner. liverpool hoping to stave off a fall from grace, which can only be described at cuomo-esque.
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within four minutes, arsenal live out the irish proverb, there's nothing so bad that it couldn't be worse. liverpool remain desperate to prove they are the future and not a short-term fad. your league leaders, manchester city faces leicester city. look at this. ginger king, splitting the line. 14 points clear at the top of the table. the only time, i think, that can beat manchester city right now, gonzaga. >> roger, thanks so much. after this weekend, of course,
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liverpool only two points behind fourth place chelsea. very important. >> he is risen. >> thank you so much for being with us. we will be tuning in -- >> courage, america. >> "the men in blazers" on nbc sports network. broadway has been dork over a year. over the weekend, a light began to star with a big star. broadway reopened for 36 minutes as nathan lane took the stage wearing a mask in front of an audience of 150 people. nathan lane will be our guest ahead on "morning joe."
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gotta respect his determination. it's easy and affordable to get started. get self protection for $10 a month. hope you had a great weekend. with us this morning, we have president of the national action
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network, reverend al sharpton, professor at princeton university, eddie gloud, junior and charlie sykes. we have former chief of staff to the dccc, adrian elrod. she worked for the biden campaign and inaugural campaign. it was quite a weekend. easter weekend but also obviously yesterday, remembering the passing of martin luther king over half a century later, 53 years later. >> yes, it was. the irony of the day is as we that are christians celebrate the resurrection, many of us in this country and in the civil rights community remembered the assassination of dr. king. i was 13 years old when he was assassinated and had already been youth director of his new york chapter of operation bread
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basket. i thought about it as we are in the midst of this trial of derek chauvin in minneapolis around the killing of george floyd as we are dealing with voter suppression laws in georgia and 43 other states, how far we have come and how far we have not come since dr. king's assassination. then i'm reminded of his last book entitled "where do we go from here, chaos or community." we are still confronted with those choices. in his last message the night before the his assassination, he predicted -- he said, we will have difficult days ahead, but i want you to know that we as a people will get to the promised land. that's what drives many of us that remain in that tradition of dr. king. he promised us we would get to the promise land, no matter how difficult the days may seem. >> one of the more extraordinary speeches in american history, the speech he gave that night in memphis on april 3, 1968, the
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night before he was assassinated. talked about seeing the promised land and he might not get there with you, but he talked about that we as a country were going to reach that promised land. here we are 53 years later. by many metrics, we have moved miles and miles and miles as a country on the issue of race and other metrics not so much. this easter weekend, obviously, a city like minneapolis still on edge over a possible racial showdown in the coming week or weeks. >> absolutely, joe. it was a powerful weekend. resurrection sunday for those of white house are christians is an extraordinarily important day. i'm thinking about what rev said. we often run past that line in
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king's famous speech. we have some difficult days ahead. it's like running past holy saturday in order to get to resurrection sunday. we have to deal with what saturday represents as christians in some ways. so i think those difficult days he spied we're still in. but again, he gave an easter sunday speech april 1957 where he talked about the power of love, the importance of love, how love can outlast the ugliness of the moment. here we are in these difficult days. if we stand on the power of love, we can imagine rising again, it seems to me. it can actually happen. >> during his easter sunday address, pope francis called on the world to end violence, to end poverty and to end the pandemic. pope francis called upon the leaders of the wealthy nations to display the, quote, spirit of global responsibility by speeding up the vaccination
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distribution and share the, quote, essential tool to end the pandemic with poorer nations. the united states is now administering more than 3 million new vaccine shots daily. the cdc reported a record 4.1 million -- 4.1 million new doses that were given out on saturday. the agency says just over 104 million americans, 31% of the population, have received at least one dose of the vaccine. nearly 60 million people, or 18% of the population, are fully vaccinated. the cdc says as it now safe for fully vaccinated people to travel. americans traveling within the u.s. can now do so without needing a covid test or quarantining. if you are leaving the country, you also don't need a test. unless the place you are visiting asks for it. when you are coming back from an international trip, you should get a negative test before flying and get another test upon
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arrival. the guidance hasn't changed for americans who aren't fully vaccinated though. they are urged to avoid traveling. the changes come after tsa reported the most passenger screenings since the start of the pandemic on friday. as i said, i went up to boston with my boys. we watched the red sox. a difficult weekend. i will tell you what was more difficult for me was driving through boston. the city is abandoned. we mock them for good reason, many of the things that ron desantis says. he seems to be trying to, quote, own the libs, with every statement he makes. at the same time, you go to the other extreme. charlie baker and the state of
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massachusetts, i'm telling you, it's like going back ten months. almost all the buildings were shut down. almost all the restaurants were shut down. a lot of the schools are shut down. there is a happy medium between there and -- with a mental health care crisis exploding the way it is right now and every mental health provider i talk to says, we are now at a tipping point. charlie, i know, like me, we are conservatives, but we have been urging caution through this pandemic. i think the caution goes to the other side. people need to start opening up. we have one out of three americans at least partially vaccinated. 4 million americans got vaccinated on saturday. deaths and hospitalizations are plunging. it is time to open every school. it is time to start opening up cities like boston. the mental health of americans requires it with all of these vaccines already in the arms of
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americans. >> you are right. we're in this race though. we're in the race between the vaccination and herd immunity and the recklessness of some people in the country who are not observing limits. you are right, this country is -- there's pent-up demand. it's like a wound spring that people are just ready to get back to their lives. you mentioned getting back to school. this has to be the number one priority. it's not a good look from some of the teachers unions who are continuing to resist going back to school, even after they have been vaccinated. you gotta get the kids back to school. we're not going to get back to normal until we do that. the science would make it -- seems to make it clear that you can reopen the schools without a significant health danger. absolutely, we need to get back to school. here in wisconsin, we are more open than you described in
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boston. we're not yet at florida levels. i guess my concern is that we're at the three yard line right now, let's not spike the football at the three yard line. let's take all of the precautions. the clock is ticking. by the end of this month, by the beginning of may, people are going to go back to their lives, whatever the rules are, whatever the guidelines are, whatever the shutdown rules are. >> yeah. the clock is ticking. we are not on the three yard line as it pertains to schools. a month ago anthony fauci and others said it's time to get kids back in school. i'm sorry if politicians are scared of teachers unions. if you are that weak that you are not going to do what's in the best interest of children after fauci is telling you to open up the schools, i feel sorry for you. you need to do what's in the kids' best interest. again, let me be very clear. we're not at easter of 2020 when donald trump was recklessly
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saying, open the country. we're at easter -- we are past easter of 2021 when one in three americans have had at least one of their vaccinations. we had 4 million vaccination shots given the other day. we have made great advances over the last year. we understand what causes covid and what doesn't cause covid. there's no reason why buildings across boston and this country can't open up, at least partially open up. six foot distances, proper ventilation, masks. enough is enough. follow science. it's what we were saying when we were criticizing donald trump. follow the science. if you follow the science, every school should be opened in america. adrian, i know it's a balancing act. i know that a lot of people have looked at what's happened over the past year and looked at the recklessness of the former president, looked at the
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recklessness of certain republican governors who were more interested in owning the libs than following science and medicine. at the same time, aren't we getting really close to the point where cities, towns, businesses, small businesses, restaurants should be allowed to open up across the country? >> yeah, absolutely, joe. you talk about that happy medium, striking that balance. that's exactly what we are looking for. you have states like florida, arkansas, my home state, that have taken this, i think, to the farthest extreme by lifting the mask mandate, not helpful. you have states like massachusetts, as you mentioned, that probably need to be a little more aggressive in terms of opening up businesses. joe, i want to mention something when you talk about what's in the best of kids and sending kids back to school. it's in the best interest of parents. there's parents out there who simply cannot afford to stay home with their kids.
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we don't have a federal pay leave policy. the biden administration made it clear that's something that they are hoping will be passed in one of the next upcoming stimulus bills. it's something that's got to be focused on here. you just don't -- not every parent in the country has the luxury of staying home and taking care of their kids. that's something that governors across the country have to be focused on. it's something that we have to take into consideration when it comes to the interests of the kids. how the trump campaign reportedly tricked supporters into making repeated donations throughout 2020. we will be talking to the reporter behind that story next on "morning joe." ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪
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now to "the new york times" investigation that shows scores of former president trump supporters unknowingly donated a lot more money to his campaign than they wanted to. they spoke with several supporters who thought they signed up to send a single small
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dollar donation. thousands of dollars siphoned from their accounts. let's bring in the author of that piece. shane, thank you for being here. man, that story is heavy. i mean it in this respect. when you started with the poor man who is in hospice, who wanted to contribute to donald trump. he thought, i really want to help this guy. i want to take part in this election. once he did, suddenly, more and more money kept getting withdrawn. he didn't know what to do. his family didn't know what to do. that story was repeated time and time again. people having to shut down their bank accounts. people having to shut down their credit cards. talk about it, if you will. tell me, where did you first
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hear about this story? what got you on to this story? >> yes, at the center of this is the fact that the trump campaign, last fall, while facing their own financial hardships, began pre-checking boxes to start withdrawing donations from their supporters every single week until the election. at one point, they extended the date to december 14th, to weeks beyond the election. for their supporters, these pre-checked boxes meant you had to wade through fine print -- that became longer and more complicated as the finances worsened for the trump campaign. if you didn't uncheck those boxes, you were opted in. that kind of design, which critics have called dark patterns, entrapped tons of supporters of president trump. you can see it based on a few things. a, individuals impacted, which
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is their stories can be heartbreaking. at scale, at the end of the campaign, or the end of last year, rather, the trump operation, all their political committees, including with the republican national committee, refunded more than 10% of every dollar that they raised online through this website, which is the donation process for the republican party. 10% of every dollar they raised. that added up to more than $122 million. to compare the biden operation that had a refund rate of 2.2%. it's not even close to each other. that rate was even higher at the end when the pre-checked boxes every week, you saw this massive refund rate. there was a surge of phone calls to credit card companies. people said i'm a victim of fraud. i don't know what happened. why is the trump campaign taking money out of my account every seven days? people would get their bill and they would see -- if they gave $200, they see six charges.
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it's $1,200. if you gave $20 three times, you see 15 charges on your credit card. >> your article really helped explain some things that were happening and connected some dots. you had donald trump falling behind joe biden. not having the money that biden had in the lead-up to the actual election. being angry because there weren't ads up there michigan. there weren't ads up in other swing states. they started getting aggressive and used these underhanded tactics that would continue to withdraw money from contributors' accounts. so then they had, after the election -- he used the money. of course, this is so trumpian. he used the money to get through election day. after the election, they had to start refunding money. where does he get the money to
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do that? from all of his pleadings to his people to send money to stop the steal. explain how that happened. how that worked out for donald trump. >> all these supporters of the president who had these donations recurred every week, this money went right into the trump campaign's bank account. they were struggling financially in october. they had millions of dollars in television ads booked than they had dollars on hand. after the election, they began refunding more and more of this money. people got their credit card. let's say you were opted into this every week. you got your bill in early november. what is this? you would call. ask for a refund. in fairness, they did, for the most part, give people refunds when they asked for them. when they did, that made money coming back out of the trump campaign. if you look after election day, while the president was making
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these charges, these unfounded charges that this election was stolen from him, he was raising tens of millions of dollas from his supporters, more of that money went to paying off refunds than to the legal fight he was engaged in in november and december. that's a big deal. this is how his supporters were told to give money after the election and this is how it was actually spent. >> all right. shane, thank you so much for being with us. an important piece. we appreciate it. coming up, an update on the friday attack on the u.s. capitol. nbc's kasie hunt joins us with the latest next on "morning joe."
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the u.s. capitol police officer has been killed and another injured after a man drove a car into the north security barricade at the capitol complex on friday. the chief identified the fallen officer as william evans, also known as billy. he was an 18-year veteran of the force and a member of the capitol division's first
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responders union. kasie hunt joins us now with the latest. >> joe, good morning. the capitol police community has just been shattered again by violence. of course, after they lost another member of the force in the wake of the january 6th insurrection. now there's real fear that the capitol will continue to be a target. this morning, debate over securing the u.s. capitol is escalating after friday's deadly car attack with new concrete barriers installed over the weekend. the head of the capitol police union making an urge to ramp up security. they are below by 233 officers and is struggling to meet mission requirements. warning of a potential flood of departures from the ranks saying, i have had younger officers confide they are looking at other agencies and departments right now. it comes after the trauma of the january 6th capitol insurrection
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which left one capitol police officer dead and led to scrutiny after many felt the police were underprepared. lawmakers must increase police funding. >> those families who lost loved ones deserve it. we need to up our game in support of the capitol police. >> friday's attack killed officer evans and injured officer shaver. authorities said green was shot after jumping out of the car, wielding a knife and lunging at officers. green later died. with flags lowered in evans' honor, the fallen officer's friends remembering him. >> he was so proud to be on that force and to serve and protect our lawmakers and our country. >> ken shaver drawing cheers from capitol police officers leaving the hospital saturday.
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as authorities try to determine the suspect's motive, police visiting this virginia home three hours outside washington where green grew up. "the washington post" reports his family issued a statement saturday pointing to his depression and potential mental illness, saying he was not a terrorist by any means. the senate majority leader, chuck schumer, has pointed out that there's a bipartisan review process going on in senate committees. plans for a 9/11 style commission to investigate the insurrection and, of course, the security failures that would potentially need to be fixed in order to continue to protect the capitol community has been sidelined by partisan bickering. joe? >> you heard complaining, mainly from republicans who don't like the fence, don't like the extra security measures around the capitol. certainly, you look at what happened in this instance and look at the fact that there are
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still threats coming into the capitol hill police, are they going to continue to keep those barricades up, to keep not only members of congress but also the officers safe? >> joe, a lot of the fencing came down. that's why this car was able to get where it ended up friday. it ran into a barricade that has been a traditional part of the capitol security all the way along. it would have been there before january 6th. it continues to be there after january 6th. they pulled that perimeter in. there's a fence that prevents people from getting to the actual capitol that would prevent what happened on january 6th. cars are just a different manner. the center of the problem here is that the insurrection showed that the capitol is a target that can actually be successfully breached. that didn't used to be the case. i'm not sure people necessarily realized the state of security at the united states capitol. i was talking with senator koons this morning.
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everyone is aware of the threat of international terrorism to the capitol. that's something people dealt with every day. this idea it's a target for people here in the united states is a different and more complex security situation to solve. that really does present a challenge when you are trying to find the right balance between making the capitol accessible to people as a symbol of democracy -- you worked in the building. you know what it's like to come and go. it's never been that hard. you have people visiting from florida or any other state. you can easily take them around. it's a nice perk. it stands for the values of the place. it may need to be re-evaluated considering how much. clint watts made this point to me in the conversation we had that now you may have to actually put something up and take it down gradually without really mentioning that you are taking it down, because it's simply going to be -- continue to be a place people think of when they think about doing stuff like this.
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joe? >> you have been around washington like me long enough to remember when decisions had to be made about pennsylvania avenue. my gosh, the locals went crazy when they closed pennsylvania avenue. i can't imagine it being open that close to the white house. of course, the capitol hill complex, it used to be wide open. after 9/11, things changed. i suspect things will change again. symbolism of openness is important. but more important than that is keeping our lawmakers safe. you look at what happened at the white house when they had to close that part of pennsylvania avenue. it transformed into a really nice area now. >> yeah, i do remember all the fuss about how -- i remember how you used to be able to drive past the front gates. suddenly, it was shut. you would have thought arm ge
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en was coming. now, there's people out there skateboard, playing music. it's a place for protesters, but it's safer because they can be there and they are outside the perimeter and there aren't cars. we have all completely accepted it. in retrospect, it seems crazy that you ever could drive right past the front door of the white house. now it seems normal that would you have this element of security. it's true with the capitol, too. it was one of the wonderful things that people like kasie and i, we could wander in and out. no one stops you. it did strike me as an anomaly. i don't think there's any other national office of state like that in any capitol in the world. certainly not in the uk. you can't wander into the houses of parliament or france into the national assembly. it doesn't happen. you are not allowed to do that. you do have to have security. because we do know that people
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watch the media and they watch tv and january 6th got a ton of press attention, and this incident got a ton of press attention, security people have said to me over the last few days, you will have copycat incidents. it is something that's on the radar of people that want to make some kind of a statement. >> january 6th shows what a soft target the united states capitol is. >> it did. that's honestly why what happened on friday was so jarring and shocking to members of the capitol hill community. no one, of course, is over january 6th. we have had -- there have been many, many, many security incidents at the capitol over the years. emails come through. there's a couple streets that are closed. occasionally, you get an announcement over the loudspeakers. for the longest time, we always thought, it's more than likely that this is a false alarm. it almost always was.
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there were a couple incidents -- there was a shooting in 2013 that was entirely unrelated to politics. it was something that happened to occur near the capitol. obviously, there was a reaction to it because of its proximity. it wasn't somebody trying to attack the capitol because of the implications of that or because of politics. january 6th changed all of that. instead of assuming, looking at your phone and thinking, everything is going to be fine. i was texting our team saying, where are you? are you okay? that was the first thought when we heard something was happening here. that reality, i think, is going to have to drive the decision making. certainly, it's what the capitol police union is saying. they are saying, we're more than 200 officers short of where we need to be. we have dozens of officers eligible to retire in three to five years. the union chief is hearing from younger officers that they are looking for other jobs in the department or elsewhere. clearly, if they want to
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maintain the security level that's needed to make sure that our country can function the way it's supposed to, they are going to have to make changes. >> deep thinking and big changes. thank you so much. coming up next, the latest in the justice department investigation into congressman matt gaetz. keep it right here on "morning joe." here on "morning joe. did you know you can go to libertymutual.com to customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need? really? i didn't-- aah! ok. i'm on vibrate. aaah! only pay for what you need.
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we have another story coming from the hill that you have an update on. >> we do, joe. let's go to the latest on the justice department investigation into republican congressman matt gaetz. "the washington post" reports the florida republican repeatedly boasted to people involved in state politics about women he met through a county tax collector, who has been charged by federal authorities are sex trafficking of a minor. that's according to two people who "the post" said heard gaetz's comments directly. he showed them videos on his
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phone of naked or topless women who appeared to be adults on multiple occasions. the congressman's communication director has resigned. he quit out of principle. gaetz has not been charged with a crime. his office says he never paid for sex. he said he had no relationship with a 17-year-old and the allegation against him is, quote, totally false. let's bring in state attorney for palm beach county dave aaronburg. i don't know where to start. why don't we begin with the legal liability that gaetz is facing here. we ran through quite a few very distasteful things. which of them may end up being crimes that matt gaetz could be charged with? >> good morning. the most serious crime is child sex trafficking, punishable by up to life in prison. there's a ten-year mandatory
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minimum. the more information that comes out, the fewer defenses matt seems to have left. joel greenberg, the former tax collector, is being charged with child sex trafficking over the same 17-year-old girl at issue in the matt gaetz investigation, which tells you that federal prosecutors have determined that the girl involved was, indeed, underage and that something of value exchanged hands between greenberg and the 17-year-old girl. if you can apply that to matt gaetz, he could face the same charges. there are reports that say that gaetz and greenberg used apple pay and other cash apps to pay one or more girls. i think gaetz's last remaining defense would be, first, that he could say he did not have sex with her. two, he could say that if he did have sex with her, by that time she was 18. those defenses can be overcome by the sworn testimony of the alleged victim or the discovery
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of incriminating documents like text messages, emails amongst the parties or if joel greenberg flips on matt gaetz, which is almost certain at this point. greenberg is facing decades in prison. he is currently in a jail cell because he violated the terms of his pretrial release. if he hasn't done it already, i think he is going to start playing, let's make a deal. >> dave, who is the bigger fish? is it possible that gaetz got dragged into this because they are trying to go after greenberg? do you think gaetz is the target for the feds? >> gaetz would be the bigger target. he is a member of congress and a child sex trafficking ring going up to a member of congress is bigger than a local tax collector. that is the life line for joel greenberg, that he is looking around and seeing that there's a bigger fish in the pond. unfortunately for gaetz, when you don't see anything bigger, the big fish is you. for gaetz, the problem is, it's
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not just child sex trafficking. if they can't prove that and can only prove he had sex with an underage girl, well, that would be a violation of the state law against having sex with a minor. that is a 15-year maximum sentence. you have to register as a sex offender. even if it's solicitation of a sex act, that's also a felony plus registration as a sex offender. there are no good outcomes here, i think, for matt gaetz in the future. >> dave, there's one bit of the story i don't understand. that's the story about his dad who says he has been cooperating with the feds and wearing a wire in this extortion claim. what was he wearing a wire for? what kind of cooperation is going on between the family and the feds? >> if you look at matt gaetz's time line, it's all about this. this is his narrative. it's his defense in the court of public opinion to these charges. the charge of extortion has
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nothing to do with the charge of child sex trafficking. you could have both. you could have extortion and be the perpetrator or child sex trafficker. this is a distraction. also, i'm not convinced that it rises to the level of extortion. what is being alleged is someone came to him and said, if you pay me $25 million, i will go save bob levinson who is alive and you will be a hero and i will make sure the charges are dropped. that's not criminal extortion. what i'm hearing is just what a lot of lobbyists do, especially those in crisis management. pay me money and i will make sure it goes away. those seem to be a smokescreen than anything that would provide a real defense for him. >> state attorney for palm beach county, dave aaronburg. thank you. legendary actor nathan lane
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joins us fresh off his weekend performance designed to bring broadway back. we will be right back in a second. we made usaa insurance for members like martin. an air force veteran made of doing what's right, not what's easy. so when a hailstorm hit, usaa reached out before he could even inspect the damage. that's how you do it right. usaa insurance is made just the way martin's family needs it with hassle-free claims, he got paid before his neighbor even got started. because doing right by our members, that's what's right. usaa. what you're made of, we're made for. ♪ usaa ♪ obsession has many names. this is ours. the lexus is. all in on the sports sedan. lease the 2021 is 300 for $369 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. i'm draymond green with my subway sub with tender steak and melty cheese. my sub is gonna dunk all over your sub. excuse me?
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♪ let's soak up the day ♪ ♪ dance the night away ♪ ♪ so with all you've got, don't
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stop ♪ ♪ so with all you've got, don't stop ♪ that was grammy winning musician john grammy-winning musician john batteast performing a tribute to health care workers at the javits center back in february. it was part of the ny pop-ups festival aimed at reinvigorating the arts. for the first time in well over a year broadway opened back a live audience to watch our next guest take the stage at the legendary st. james theater. >> i put on my mask and i open the door, and right there standing in my hallway, it's hugh jackman! i know, i know! and at first i thing, no, it's just the hottest u.p.s. guy
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ever, or i'm hallucinating from too much ramen, but it's really him! and he says hi, it's hugh jackman. may i come in, mate? [ laughter ] and he says, i've been vaccinated. and i say but you're too young. he said, broadway stars have just been classified as essential workers. and i say, duh, come right in! and he looks so grateful and he looks around my one-bedroom apartment. fine, it's a studio with an alcove. and he said, this is lovely. and i realize hugh jackman's been cooked up too! >> three-time tony award-winning actor nathan lane joins us now. it's a great honor to have you here. i took my kids to a baseball game on friday. we saw some friends who had been vaccinated, saw little kids running through a house, and i got home at night, and i sat down and i was just thinking, i
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said, was that the final scene in "inception?" >> did that really happen? just the little things we take for granted. what was it like to be back on the stage giving for people? >> it was a little surreal to be there. i have done two shows in the st. james theater, so it was sort of like coming home, so it was emotional and yet, you know, everyone -- when you went out, it was 150 people and all spread out and they've been masked and and tested, and it was a lot of protocol. when i looked out, it looked like a hostage video. but they were incredibly appreciative and it was a very special thing for myself and
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savion glover, who also performed brilliantly. >> i was going to ask you about that, "the new york times," "sunday times" had a story i think it was in the business section. all you could see is the legs jumping off of something and said, we've all hit the wall. i know you felt that emotion over the past year and you had friends and loved ones who had too. it had to be gratifying not only to be there for yourself but also understanding everybody that you were performing for had been yearning for this moment for a year. >> well, you know, look, yes, new york, it's symbolic of the arts and culture and certainly broadway, but it was -- it was a way of signaling to people we're coming back and this is sort of a bridge to hopefully full
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recovery, hopefully if everything goes well in the fall. but these are -- yes, these were all essential workers from broadway cares and the actors fund. so they certainly know what a lot of people have been going through and i'm sure it was nice for them to be back in the theater as it was for me and i think, you know, hopefully you'll be able to look out and see a full house in about six months. >> yeah, you know, k.c. hunt asked alex, our ep, to kill our camera so she can conduct the entire interview. she's a huge fan. i wouldn't get hunt in her way anymore. kasie? >> you're sweet. i have been a huge fan ever since your performance in "the birdcage" which is one of my
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very, very favorites. i was looking at you in your sweatshirt and thinking so much we missed, broadway chief among those things, being able to see life performances and enjoy that. also we're starting to read new stories about the things we might actually miss about the pandemic. "the wall street journal" has a story about naps and sweat spants. how is it for you? is there anything you're going to miss once we start going back to normal life? >> my family is good. my husband is good. we adopted two rescue dogs a few months ago. so they have taken up a lot of time, but, yes, look, it's been a time of enforced reflection and, you know, there's been time to do things that you didn't have time to do before. but, you know, i do miss that
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communal experience, which is what the theater is all about. and just telling people a story, and -- >> yes. >> and, yes, going to movie theaters and all of that. going to a restaurant with friends and catching up and it will be really nice when that can happen again. you know, it's starting. >> i know, it is starting. what do you think needs to be done to help make americans feel safe going into a packed theater? do you think that their needs to be a push from governmental officials to encourage people to do this in terms of the safety of vaccination rates? what should the rules be for going to the theater to make everyone feel like, hey, i'm excited to go sit in a crowd next to a whole bunch of my dearest friends and strangers again? >> you know, i think they're -- i think people, you know, in charge of that kind of thing are trying to do that.
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this is one scott rudin and james rosenthal put this program together of pop-ups and just as -- they're also testing to see how this goes and improving and improving. i think it's about getting that kind of word out to people, and i'm sure there will be some people who are hesitant to go back. but i think if it's all being done safely and in terms of more being vaccinated, the more people that are vaccinated, the better it will be. we're certainly making head way there. you know, i think i think it might take a little time but hopefully they will also be wanting to have that experience again as well. >> katty kay is with us and has a chance for you.
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katty? >> it was great to see the performance. it is weird, but at least it was a live performance. it's going to be a while before we have music, full-fledged musicals and big audiences and operas in particular back in the theater. what happens to that generation of younger performers who have been hit so badly by this pandemic, who lost their jobs and had to find other careers. what happens to them? can we -- do we come back in? is there a rescue plan for them? can they get jobs back on broadway and the theater again? have we potentially lost hundreds of really talented young performers? >> yeah, i think about that a lot. the younger people who maybe just arrived in new york and then the pandemic hit. >> yes. >> and they have to survive. they have to make a living and new york is an expensive place to live.
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so yeah, i think in many cases we may have lost people and they found other things to do and maybe they like them. or, you know, maybe it's just dreams postponed and they will come back when things are back to quote/unquote normal. look, the theater or show business is a difficult profession to be in under any circumstances. but, yeah, i -- i don't know what the statistics are on that but i'm sure we have lost in many -- not just acting but in all parts of the profession of people who just weren't able to survive and hang in and many have just gone home with their parents for while to figure things out. but hopefully many will come
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back as well. >> hopefully they will return when all of us return and get in packed broadway theaters again. nathan lane, thank you very much for being with us today. we really do appreciate it. >> sure. that does it for us this morning. thank you very much for watching. we greatly appreciate it. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. ♪♪ hi, there, i'm stephanie ruhle. it's monday, april 5th. this morning the trial of derek chauvin will resume for day six of testimony. all eyes on one single witness. in a rare move, the minneapolis police chief expected to take the stand for the prosecution, who will be the third member of the department to testify against one of his own. this comes after the longest-serving officer in the department, richard zimmerman, said on friday that chauvin's actions were, quote, totally unnecessary. another witness we are watching out for as the trial

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