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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  April 13, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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that's tonight's readout. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight on "all in" -- >> i believe your question is did we pull the trigger too soon on this. >> america puts a pause on the johnson & johnson vaccine. >> we want to get this worked out as quickly as we possibly can. and that's why you see the word "pause" "pause". >> tonight, my exclusive interview with dr. anthony fauci. the indicted associate of matt gaetz is cooperating with the feds. plus, will the outrage over the police killing of daunte wright affect the outcome of the chauvin trial? my exclusive interview with senator elizabeth warren.
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senator chris murphy on president biden's new commitment to end america's longest war. >> this will be achieved by helping afghanistan develop its own stable government. >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. we got a lot to get to tonight. it's a big show. we got the third night of protests in brooklyn center, minnesota. that's a live picture over the police killing of 20-year-old daunte wright. that's happening against the backdrop of the george floyd trial in minnesota. we're keeping an eye on the situation there. this was the scene less than half an hour ago. we start tonight with the big news that kicked off the day in the fight against the pandemic. now, it still been a remarkable first 83 days in the biden administration's covid vaccination program. but today, the first real big issue. the fda and cdc are pausing administration of the johnson & johnson vaccine after some
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recipients of that vaccine experienced extremely rare blood clots. now, as of yesterday more than 6.8 million people have received the johnson & johnson shot so far. the number of people who've been found to have suffered from this rare clotting disorder is six, literally less than 1 in a million. western all six were women between the ages of 18 to 48. one woman died. another in nebraska has been hospitalized in critical condition. now, today officials from the fda and cdc stressed the pause was out of an abundance of caution. but they expect to last only a few days while they review the situation and came up with recommendations for blood clots, especially because in this particular case, the standard treatment for blood clots could actually make things worse with these clots that have been developing in these six patients.
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in a statement, johnson & johnson said that no clear causal relationship has been established between the vaccine and the blood clots. in a later statement, the company added it was delaying the rollout of the vaccine in europe and pausing vaccine clinical trials while awaiting guidance. now, again, six people out of nearly 7 million folks have gotten the shot. as many pointed out today, it's a very small risk compared to, for example, the risk of blood clots from taking birth control pills or from actually getting covid. here are the numbers. the chances of blood clots from the johnson & johnson vaccine based on what we know now are less than 1 in 1 million. for certain birth control pills, the chances of blood clots are closer to 6 in 10,000. the chances of blood clots if you're hospitalized with covid itself are 1 in 20. just to put this news into some perspective, politico is reporting biden officials are bracing for the possibility of a weeks' long disruption on it johnson & johnson vaccine supply, which comes or could
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come on the heels of that factory mixup, the one in baltimore that ruined up to 15 million doses of the vaccine a couple weeks ago. that said, white house covid response coordinator jeff lines. >> said today no matter what happens to the johnson & johnson vaccine, the biden vaccine plan remains on track. >> we believe there's enough vaccine in the system, moderna and pfizer, for all americans who want to get vaccinated by may 31st to do so. >> now, not long after he made those comments, the ceo of pfizer piped up to say that his company can deliver 10% more pfizer doses than previously agreed to by the end of may, which should help make up for the shortfall. keep in mind, those extra 10% doses are more than johnson & johnson have been administered altogether. johnson & johnson's been a very small sliver of american vaccination thus far. the pause on the use of johnson & johnson vaccine was technically just a recommendation from those government agencies, but most states immediately halted the single-dose vaccine along with
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major pharmacies, u.s. military. most americans with johnson & johnson shots scheduled in the coming days saw them canceled or rescheduled. some states quickly switching those people to other available vaccines. today dr. anthony fauci said anyone who got the johnson & johnson vaccine more than two weeks ago should be in the clear. >> so someone who had it a month ago may say, what does it mean for me? you're okay because if you look at the time frame when this occurs, it's pretty tight from a few days, six to 13 days from the time of the vaccination. >> dr. fauci will be joining us here in a few minutes to discuss this. right now we have three vaccines available in the u.s. pfizer and moderna vaccines, as you might know use this new kind of technology called messenger rna, mrna, that's basically like computer code injected into our
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body that teaches our body to make a protein that triggers the immune response to make the antibodies to fight off covid. the johnson & johnson vaccine is not like that. it's like the attenuated virus of traditional vaccines. it, along with a vaccine developed by astrazeneca, which is not available here, they do not use mrna. regulators in europe have seen rare blood clot issues with that astrazeneca vaccine. that resulted in temporary halts in the use of that vaccine last month in in european countries. now we're in a holding pattern waiting to see results of this pause, waiting to see if this is isolated and rare as it appears or if maybe there's more cases. the decision to pause the use of johnson & johnson vaccine was made, it appears, fairly independently by the fda and cdc. get this. in fact, the white house covid response coordinator, that guy, jeff lines. >> who's responsible for this, said today he only found out about it last night.
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you got to imagine that was not a great call to get if you're jeff lines. >>. that independence, we should note, reflects a kind of promises kept on the part of the biden administration which campaigned on restoring the independence of scientific area, generally a good thing. at the same time one of the most difficult challenges facing officials from the very beginning of this pandemic, that goes back to late january, early february last year, right? how to make high-stakes decisions under conditions of uncertainty with incomplete information. no clear road map. it's not easy. you could argue this is the right decision that allowing johnson & johnson vaccinations to continue would result in more people having serious complications and that more vaccine hesitancy across the board as inevitably stories got out about the folks that experienced this particular side effect and the fda doing nothing. you could also argue on the other end, that this enormous
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announcement, phone notifications and whatnot, calling attention to side effects for what at this point is an almost infinitesimally small. not an easy call in either direction. there's one person in the world you want to hear from in this situation, it's dr. anthony fauci, director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases at the national institutes of health, chief medical adviser to president biden. we're lucky to be joined by him tonight. all right, dr. fauci, let's start with this. who makes this call? >> the call was made unquestionably by the fda and the cdc working together. so it was based purely on the scientific and public health considerations. >> but even if that's the case, right, there's some balance of tradeoffs here. there's costs and benefits in either direction. what's the matrix for that
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decision? what's the process by which you evaluate the sort of risks and costs on either end? >> well, what had happened is that there were a couple of cases that had been picked up in the surveillance of the j&j vaccine administration. and then it became three and then four and then five. it reached six. the fda and the cdc said, you know, we better just take a pause here and take a really close look at this. a, are there any more cases? there are a lot more we're missing? and b, what is it? what are the details about this? we need to learn more about it. the other thing that was important that we mentioned today in the press conference is that it's a message to the physicians out there because, particularly young women who may have been been vaccinated, if they come in with this syndrome and need treatment because it's really quite -- it's rare, but
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it is quite a severe syndrome -- that the general thing -- and you mentioned this yourself chris of running up to the show, where the treatment in general for clots is an anti-coagulant called heparin, which would be contra indicated in this case because it would make matters worse. so you really want to alert the physicians out there, hold on, folks. we have an issue here. we're going to try and sort it out. . it may be nothing, we may go back to where we were before, but let's just pause and take a really close look at this. that's what this is all about. and that decision was made purely on a public health and scientific basis by the fda and the cdc. >> i just want to push on this a little bit to sort of understand the risk calculation here, right? so, you know, there's this phrase, abundance of caution u which has become a cliche. it was used today, out of an abundance of caution. every time i hear that phrase, i don't want an abundance of caution, i want the correct amount of caution. we're fighting a deadly
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pandemic. so it matters how many shots get into arms. you and i, i think, agree on that. and it matters whether people have the knock-on effect of reading this news and thinking, oh, my word, i don't know about the vaccines. there's stuff on the other side of the ledger here, you would, i think, agree. >> yeah, there is, but this is not a rare event when you're following the potential for adverse events with a new product such as this vaccine where you pause, take a look, and say, okay, this is probably nothing, it probably isn't any more than you would expect anyway. let's move on. that happens more frequently than you could imagine, chris. because of the attention on this for reasons that are very obvious, we're in the middle of a deadly pandemic, it becomes something that people pay a lot of attention to. but it's not at all unusual to have pauses when you're dealing with vaccinations. >> but even if it's not unusual,
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i guess i would say that the messaging is in a different environment. i mean, i wonder how much you guys think -- i think we're trying to be very, very clear and responsible here on this program, right, about what kind of risk we're talking about and what it means for broadly. but how much the general picture of vaccine hesitancy, conspiracy theories about bill gates, yada a yada, affects the overall picture or decision-making sphere in which all these folks are operating. >> you know, chris, it goes both ways, really, because, you know, you could say this is going to have a negative impact on the issue of hesitancy. but on the other hand, it may actually work in the opposite direction because people want to know that safety is a very important issue. often when people are hesitant, they say, i'm not really sure that this was really carefully looked at, as it really safe. >> right. >> i think what you see happen today was the fact that safety was put right up front.
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you know, it has last just the pause for a few days and go back in, but at least the system worked. people are watching this very carefully and they saw something that was suspicious that might mean something, and they said, okay, let's wait a minute and take a really careful look at this. so i think it fortifies the whole concept that we take safety very seriously. >> i mean, it's interesting. as you say that now, it is a testimony to the surveillance efficacy that you can find the six cases out of 7 million, that there's enough tracking here of folks that that's being reported up the chain, it's getting integrated into the safety consideration. i want to ask a sort of broader question, which i think relates to this very strange moment we're at, fraught moment until the pandemic's life. we got record hospitalizations in michigan. we got almost half of adults with at least one shot in arms. we're doing a good job in vaccination rates if you compare to us other large countries in the world.
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and just about how you think about the next month and how you think about these balancing fighting equities of people getting back to normal, seeing other people, keeping the vaccine at bay and what your message is about navigating that fraught period where there's lots of different counted on veiling impulses and risks. >> you asked a lot of questions there, chris, but i think i could probably answer it. that's okay. we can do this. it really is, as i've described it, it's kind of a race between highly effective and safe vaccines getting the population vaccinated, as many people as you possibly can as quickly as you possibly can. the rollout of the vaccines is really quite successful. you know, we vaccinated between 3 million and 4 million people a
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day. over the weekend we were as high as 6 million in a day. you mentioned we have 120 million people that have received at least one dose of the vaccine. that's really good. now, at the same time, you have opening up -- i mean, there are many states and cities that are pulling back on the public health measures. you know, understandably everybody wants to open up. there's a good deal of covid-19 fatigue. and we're seeing a creeping up of cases. i wouldn't exactly call it a big surge that goes up, but we had a baseline of about 30,000 cases. then it went up to 40,000, 50,000, 60,000. last weekend we had one day where it was 180,000 new cases in a given day. the more people you got vaccinated -- the more you vaccinate each day, you'll have 3 million to 4 million vaccinated, you get closer and closer to the vaccinated people
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being dominant as opposed to the virus itself spreading among people. when that happens, you're going to see -- and it's going to happen reasonably soon, chris. you're going to see a diminution in the number of daily cases and there's more people that get vaccinated, there's going to be a loosening up of restrictions, things people who are vaccinated can do that they couldn't do before. i believe we're going in that direction. if we just stick to the public health measures at the same time that we're vaccinating, if we just throw caution to the wind and declare victory prematurely, we're going to really, you know, set back the effort of the vaccine by having a greater effort of the virus itself running rampant and we don't want that. we want to get public health measures to control the virus at the same time as we protect more and more people each and every day. >> all right. dr. anthony fauci, i can't tell you how much i appreciate you
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making time on this very busy day. it's really, really great to hear from you. come back anytime. thank you. >> thank you very much, chris. thank you. we got breaking news. "the new york times" tonight in the matt gaetz investigation, remember the seminole county tax assessor? what have they been telling them about mr. gaetz next. t mr. gaett are you one of the millions of americans who experience occasional bloating, gas or abdominal discomfort? taking align can help. align contains a quality probiotic to naturally help soothe digestive upsets 24/7. try align, the pros in digestive health. and join the align healthy gut team up and learn what millions of align users already know. how great a healthy gut can feel. sign up at
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"the new york times." the matt gaetz case, "times" reporting that former florida official joel greenberg has been cooperating with the justice department since last year as closed to investigators that he and republican congressman matt gaetz had encounters with women who were given cash or give away in exchange for sex. this story broke an hour ago. the justice department is investigating greenberg and gaetz for their involvement in recruiting women online and paying them for sex as well as, crucially, in technical terms, the sex trafficking of a 17-year-old girl. congressman gaetz has deny any wrongdoing. he says he has never paid for sex, had sex with an underaged girl, or recruited women online. michael schmidt is one of the reporters who broke the story and joins me now. michael, what can you tell us about what you learned in your reporting? >> well, look, joel greenberg has a massive amount of criminal
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exposure. he's been indicted on 32 charges. he faces a mandatory minimum of 12 years in prison. and the docket of his, the court papers that have been filed against him are just sort of a buffet of different types of criminality. when you're in a situation like that and you're looking at a massive amount of time in prison, you have to figure out how to get out of that. and what greenberg realized is that his only choice was to cooperate. so he has been meeting with federal investigators for many months now providing them with details about his own encounters and gaetz' encounters with women. we expect in the weeks to come for a formal plea agreement, cooperation agreement to be announced. and at that point we'll get a better sense of truly how much the government trusts greenberg's cooperation. how important is he to the
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investigation, how important will they see him and would be willing to go to a federal judge ultimately to ask for a sentence reduction. >> yeah, that point about trust here seems crucial in terms of the framing that you yourself gave, which is that this is someone who has strong incentive to flip, to give up other people. in any administration anywhere in any department of justice, any local u.s. attorneys office, the appointment -- prominent congressman, that's a big deal. >> yeah, look, this is a u.s. attorney's office in florida. we're not talking about sdny or edny or edva, these offices that came up during the mueller investigation. we're talking about an office that probably hasn't had, you know -- isn't doing a ton of high-profile, complex cases. they did have a trial some years
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ago for the wife of the pulse nightclub shooter on terrorism charges. they lost that case. that was an embarrassment for the government as the government usually wins terrorism cases. and you do not want to move forward with any investigation, particularly one that is politically sensitive, involves a member of congress, and you know that if matt gaetz were to go to trial with the government, he'd be walking in with some form of a high-end defense lawyer, someone who's really going to take the government on. and these cases are not simply just looking at documents and having an agent testify. you need to rely on people who were in the room and there are different credibility problems with different witnesses in this case. >> what does it mean that he's been talking to feds this long? >> so what happens is that when you reach a plea or cooperation agreement with the government, the government knows what they're getting themselves into because they have spent time
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with you. they have learned if you have admitted to them all of our culpability, what other information you have, how truthful are you, what kind of witness could you be. they did not sign that agreement without having that sense. so over many meetings, the government will sit down and learn as much as they can from the witness. and that's why there have been so many meetings that have gone on in the past several months. >> michael schmidt, great reporting. thank you so much for sharing that with us tonight. appreciate it. don't go anywhere, my exclusive interview with senator elizabeth warren who is chairing the senate banking subcommittee. today was her first hearing on canceling student debt. airflow two times more than the leading allergy spray at hour one. [ deep inhale ] claritin-d. get more airflow.
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yes, i've been waiting for this day. we just got what? vaccinated. we just got vaccinated! let's get you there. let's get to immunity. i'm now going to go vote so i'm going to hand over the gavel to our ranking member, senator kennedy, who i think will be calling on dr. baker. >> madam chair?
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>> yes. >> it was quick. that was senator john kennedy, republican, addressing senator elizabeth warren as madam chair of the banking subcommittee on a hearing on student debt. one of the more underappreciated elements, but most important of the senate democratic majority that is empowered by those in probable georgia wins is some of the economic committees are being run by its most progressive members. those members are now able to dictate to flow of issues on things like student debt cancellation. joining me is senator elizabeth warren, democrat from massachusetts, chair of the subcommittee on economic policy, senate committee on banking, housing, and urban affairs. great to have you, senator. your hearing today was on throne cancellation. we're 83 days in.
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what are the prospects for that? what's your prognosis? >> you know, my prognosis is we're going to get this done. president biden could cancel $50,000 worth of student loan debt basically with a stroke of a pen. student loan debt has been canceled by president obama, by president trump, and already by president biden. he's been canceling about $5 billion of student loan debt every single month in the accumulated interest that he's canceling. but look, the reason we're going to do this is because it is so critically important. one of the things we face in this nation is a black/white wealth gap that has been with us now for generations and generations. by canceling $50,000 of student loan debt, the president would have the ability to close the black/white wealth gap among borrowers by about 25 points,
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and for latinos, that would be about 27 points. talk about something that would be transformative in this nation. we can do that. >> let me ask about the distributional point, this average amount of u.s. student loan debt and whether using the median or average, it's somewhere around $32,000. okay. you know, the argument that has been made is that canceling $10,000 or $20,000 has progressed impacts, but up to $50,000, you're canceling the debt of a dentist or lawyer who's doing pretty well. why would you cancel the debt of people who have taken out loans for relatively high-earning jobs afterwards? >> so remember that the proposal is to have income caps on it. so it's not canceling student loan debt for people who are making a bazillion bucks. by the way, according to the latest data from the department
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of education that they just released today, it's closer to about $40,000 worth of death. keep in mind what that would mean is for about 84% of the people out there who have student loan debt, it would be free and clear. it would be done. that'd have no more student loan debt. and also remember who these folks are. i know, everyone wants to talk about, you know, the person with the fancy diploma or whatever. 40% of these folks never graduated from college. so they're wrestling with student loan debt on what you make as a high school graduate. it's time to turn them loose. >> you have been quite outspoken and i think forward-thinking? the realm of taxation and there's a big tax debate happening right now in congress about these infrastructure pay floors, raising corporate taxes. seems like we're chasing our tails around the tree, which is that the republicans are never
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going to agree on taxing corporations. am i crazy or it just seems obvious to me? >> which republicans exactly do you mean here, chris? if you mean republicans all across this nation -- >> right. >> in fact, this florida wealth tax, the majority of republicans across america support a wealth tax as do the majority of independents and democrats. it's the folks in the senate and the house who say no, no, no, because they're the ones who are beholden to the giant corporations and their big promise is they are the tax cut people so that the rich can get richer. and somebody's going to have to pay to keep this government going, and they're willing to just keep shoving that onto middle class folks, working
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class folks, through cuts, they shove it onto poor folks. what this debate is really about is about talking about forms of taxation that are truly progressive, forms of taxation that raise a lot of money and puts basic fairness in the system. now, you know me, give me a chance and i'll talk about the wealth tax. 2 cent tax on fortunes above $50 million. we can raise $3 trillion over the next ten years. that'll pay for a lot of preschool and child care, a whole lot of infrastructure just that one piece alone. >> final question for you is about the news today in afghanistan. i know you're on the armed services committee. i saw your statement on this. i'll be talking to chris murphy in a bit who's also investigated in this issue. president biden appearing to announce tomorrow a withdrawal that's not conditions based of all troops by september 11th of
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this year. do you support it? >> i strongly support president biden on this. it is time for us to get out of afghanistan. >> senator elizabeth warren of massachusetts, thank you so much for making time tonight. i appreciate it. >> thank you. ahead, another day of big headlines from the chauvin trial. another day of protests as a police officer who shot and killed daunte wright has resigned. will she be charged? we'll talk about all of it next. (vo) the subaru outback. dog tested. dog approved. we need to reduce plastic waste in the environment. that's why at america's beverage companies, our bottles are made to be re-made.
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the third night of protests in brooklyn center, minnesota, where the community is struggling with grief and anger after a 20-year-old black mcnabb named daunte wright was shot and killed by a police officer over the weekend. that shooting happening just ten miles from where former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin is currently on trial for the death of george floyd last year. in fact, earlier this afternoon the families of daunte wright and george floyd came together to hold an emotional press conference. >> they murdered my nephew.
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she killed my nephew. he was loved. he was ours. >> that's right. >> he came from us. my brother and my sisters hurt. like i said, this is no broken home. >> come on. >> this is no broken home. >> uh-huh. >> this is 23 years of love. 23. my nephew was 20. did y'all not see my little great nephew? did y'all not see that beautiful baby? he is fatherless. >> daunte wright's aunt who you just saw also revealed a connection between the two men, george floyd's girlfriend used to be daunte wright's teacher. shortly after the press conference, officials announced that both the police officer identified in wright's shooting and the brooklyn center police
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chief resigned. this comes after the city council of brooklyn center voted last night to fire the city manager and give the mayor to to control the police department, all of this in change to the unnecessary death, happening against the backdrop of the trial of derek chauvin where today his defense team began laying out its case, calling several witnesses who seemed to do little to undermine the video evidence we've all seen. one of the defense witnesses was former law enforcement officer named barry broad who testified the use of force was justified. the prosecutor spent an extended period of time getting him to admit that derek chauvin should have known he was causing george floyd unnecessary pain and should've been aware enough to stop what he was doing. >> from this point forward, from this point until the point at which the emts arrive and tap on the defendant's shoulder and take mr. floyd and place him onto gurney, from this point to
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that point, mr. floyd wasn't resisting, was he? >> no. >> the defendant maintained the same general position? >> yes. >> force must be reasonable at the start of the force, correct? >> yes. >> throughout the continuation of the force and at the end of the force, correct? >> yes. >> right. so as it reasonable to continue using the force on the limp body of a man who has taken his last breath underneath you? clearly there was nothing reasonable about the force derek chauvin used against george floyd and defense witnesses have been forced to admit as much. for more, i'm joined by rachel paulis, professor at university of st. thomas school of law. let's start with your analysis of the testimony today. there were multiple experts put on by the defense to basically argue this was a justified and
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legitimate use of force by chauvin. what did you think of those witnesses? >> i think, unfortunately, for the defense the line the jury is most likely to remember is mr. broad's line that if only george floyd had been resting comfortably, compliant with the police officer's directions, none of this would have happened. and his direct quote was that he could have been resting comfortably. if a woman knew that rape was inevitable, she should just lie back and enjoy it. it's not possible for a woman to enjoy assault just as it's not possible for a man to rest comfortably when three grown men are on top of him and one is on his neck. >> and do you think when you say that moment stuck out in terms of the jury, i mean, do you think that -- in which way do you see that cutting? >> well, i think that it showed remarkable lack of sensitivity,
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which is at the heart of this case, a lack of empathy and judgment, the lack of understanding of what was being done to take human life. as a legal matter, the notion that you can't believe what your own eyes are telling you, i think, again, is not going to bode well for the defense because the jurors do have common sense, they do have judgment, they can see what's happening for themselves on that video. and i think they're going to be asking themselves is anyone possible -- is it possible for anyone to rest comfortably on a sidewalk with police officers on top of you? >> there was another moment where this expert, mr. broad, sort of talked about floyd becoming more compliant. again, kind of like that resting comfortably line. i want to play it because it's so striking in the context. take a listen. >> in your view of the clip that we just looked at, just focusing on the subject behavior, what is mr. floyd doing? what he was he doing in that
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clip? >> he's becoming more compliant. >> well, is there any noncompliance you were able to see in that clip? >> in this clip, no. >> when he refers to him becoming more compliant, that's the man taking his last breaths. >> he's dying. and if the argument of the defense is, as they suggested last week, that even saying "i can't breathe" is an act of resistance, i think they face the dangerous possibility that the jury -- this is going to backfire with the jury because the jury is going to say this is completely unreasonable, and this just shows how excessive the force was in this case. if this is any clue as to derek chauvin's mind-set and not just the theories of his defense attorneys, then he deserves conviction on one or more counts. >> we should note that mr. broad also appeared as an expert
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witness in the defense of jason van dyke for shooting laquan mcdonald in chicago in 2014. people have seen that videotape as well. what's striking to me here and one of our producers pointed this out earlier today and it stuck with me all day. when you see what's happening inside the courtroom, it's literally exactly what you hear from certain corners of particularly right-wing media after one of these incidents about, well, he had excited delirium, he was on drugs, super strength, he was resisting arrest, he was this dangerous, almost bestial force for the officer. i mean, there's no difference. it's the same line being pursued by the defense attorneys inside that courtroom as how it gets tried in the court of public opinion. >> absolutely. and so that is why i think this inability to hear people, which a lot of people thought was what was most disturbing about that
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video, derek chauvin's lack of response to both mr. floyd as well as to the crowd around him is being echoed throughout this trial. and i don't think that bodes well for the defense. >> rachel paulis who served as u.s. attorney in minnesota, thank you so much for making time with us tonight. >> thank you. coming up, senator chris murphy on the huge announcement from the white house that can finally mean the ends of our longest war. the senator joins me ahead. oh yeah! honey, you still in bed? yep! bye! that's why we love skechers max cushioning footwear. they've maxed out the cushion for extreme comfort. it's like walking on clouds! big, comfy ones! oh yeah!
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tomorrow, president biden will formally announce his plan to withdraw all american troops from afghanistan by the 20th an versety of the september 11th attacks. governor chris murphy from connecticut is on the committee of foreign relations and he joins me now. first of all, your reaction to the news? >> it's the right move.
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it's a recognition of facts on the ground. it's a recognition that arguably our mission in afghanistan was accomplished a decade ago. we went to afghanistan to take out the taliban, to remove al qaeda, to use the space as training territory, operating territory, where they planned attacks on the united states, and what the counterterrorism officials tell us, they are down to 200, 300 fighters and they longer have the ability to use afghanistan to plan large scale attacks against the united states. what we have been engaged in really over the last decade is the nation building. we have been working with the afghan government to clear the taliban out. put the afghan government in charge of the security of that nation. we have given them every
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opportunity to stand up their own defenses and government structure, and i think at this point, we have to recognize that if we were to stay for another 15 years, we likely wouldn't be able to completely rid the country of the taliban. but having flished the main goal where they cannot attack the united states directly from afghanistan, it's time to bring the men and women home. >> there is an interesting split among republicans interviewed today. lindsay graham, angry up and set about the news. others, mitt romney, saying he was not sure. others, ted cruz, saying it's time to bring them home. do you think pressure, political pressure or pressure from the pentagon, which is -- let's be honest, rolled administration after administration, and is going to build in advance of the actual withdraw? >> well, i think this is no surprise to those of us who have
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watched joe biden over the years. you know, open reporting tells us that during the obama administration, then vice president biden was arguing for a more precipitous withdraw of american forces. because as a senator, joe biden had watched afghanistan very closely, and knew that jen raf after general had come up to capitol hill and we needed one more year, two more years. the afghan military was so close to control things on their own. and it never came to fruition. in fact, the taliban used the american presidents as recruiting fodder. and our presence there as elongating the conflict, not bringing it to a close. so i don't know that joe biden is going to be dissuaded. he has been of this opinion for a long time. >> one to ten, how sure are you
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it's going to happen? >> well, ten. >> well, there is a certain lucy and the football quality here. i'm 42 years old. i watched it for 20 years. i reported on it for however long. probably 16, 17 years i reported on afghanistan and possible withdraw from afghanistan, and is the government, yada yada. i feel i will believe it when i see it. you are close enough to the administration to have a finger on the pulse. you see it as something that is happening, that means something. >> well, i think it's happening because this president is committed to the policy in a personal way. but also, because he faces an array of threats that require reorientation. just this weekend, we have seen rattling from the chinese and around taiwan. we have russian forces on the border of the ukraine. we obviously have a number of
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new security threats in african and the middle east. right now, we need to put our focus, our money, our resources where the most threats to the united states exists and right now, they are not in afghanistan. >> there have been an outspoking reporter of the nuclear deal, getting back into it. and republicans hated the deal, and netanyahu and the government hated it. clear about hating it. there was a black out attack on the nuclear enrichment site a few days ago, a power failure struck iran's natanznatanz your
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yum. do you feel it -- >> i can't speak to the responsibility for the action. what i can say is this. it's additional proof there is no military path way to divorcing iran from a nuclear weapon. this attack, whoever carried it out, resulted in iran making a decision to move further forward with their nuclear research program, getting closer to the breakout time for a nuclear weapon. so it's just more confirmation, no matter how many different novel ways you try to attack their program, it's not going to divorce them from a pathway to a weapon. it's only diplomacy. i think the iranians know the administration is serious about getting back in the jcpoa. the iranian elections are coming
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up. we, i think, have a short window to get back in compliance and force the iranians to compliance. we sent a letter recommending the compliance approach, and i hope we see it come back very soon. it would be very important. >> isn't the well irredeemably poisoned? >> what from? >> from iran. come on. >> no, and listen, i think all throughout the world, we are having trouble sort of recommitting our friends and adversaries to a diplomatic
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path. and at this time hased for anybody to enter negotiations with the united states. but the sanctions are serious. they are crippling and they are a mechanism to get them back to the table. >> senator murphy, thanks for your time. that saul in on this tuesday night. rachel maddow's show starts right now. >> it's always thursday somewhere. i don't think that is actually how it goes. thank you. i understand, my friend. it's a long week already. thank you. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. what a news day this has been. the biden administration announcing today that the u.s. war in afghanistan will finally come to an end. and multiple presidents have tried. even in the george w. bush administration, which started that war. they said by the time that george w. bush left office, they were trying to end it.


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