tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC April 15, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT
enslaved, i should say, if he had not been assassinated, we would have probably had reparations. >> fair. true. yeah. >> a specific argument. and we'll just have to see where goes. we are going to go forward and the senate doesn't pass, we will ask biden to do executive order. >> we -- we shall see. thank, both. that's tonight's reid out. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight on all in. >> are we going to be here two years from now, wearing masks? >> i doubt -- i doubt -- >> dr. fauci the same question? >> let me -- let me -- you are ranting again. >> i'm not ranting. >> yes, you are. >> from wild ranting in congress to vaccine skeptics on cable. >> so, maybe, it doesn't work and they are simply not telling you that. >> tonight, the right-wing industrial complex harming america's pandemic response. then, today's big hearing about the failed response to the capitol attack.
>> it was decided that these heavier munitions were not to be utilized. plus, more protests in minnesota, as the man charged with george floyd's murder remains silent. >> i will invoke my fifth-amendment privilege, today. and senator ed markey on his new bill to restore balance in the nation's highest court. >> we do it by adding four seats to the court to create a 13-member supreme court. "all in" starts right now. good evening, from new york, i'm chris hayes. i know it does not feel this way. day in, day out, there is so much anguish right now. but i still think it is still worth considering, right now, we are living in a time of one of the most incredible, scientific achievements, in recent memory. right? it's -- it's -- it's been an unbelievably dark year. one of the worst in american history.
we are not out of the woods with coronavirus, yet. in fact, there is a terrible surge happening right now in the state of michigan. hitting near-record-high hospitalizations and cases and we are going to talk to the governor about what is going on there, in just a moment. but again, first, let's just take a step back. think about what is happening on the vaccination front. all the focus over the last couple days has been on the temporary suspension of the johnson & johnson vaccine. that, after six women who received the vaccine developed a rare blood-clotting disorder. the fda and the cdc recommended pausing distribution, while they assess the situation. now, it's important to keep in mind, this is an extremely tiny, tiny number of known cases. also, in terms of the overall picture of american vaccination, johnson & johnson was providing a small amount to the american-vaccine supply. the vast majority of our supply right now is coming from the vaccines from moderna and pfizer. those two vaccines were developed, in less than a year, with a technology that has never been used, before. and are now being deployed, at
unimaginable scale. we are averaging well-over 3 million vaccines, a day. more than 3.5 million reported, today. and the vaccines, the data that we have on these vaccines, is incredible. i mean, the cdc reported, today, this isn't clinical data. this is like the data from the world, right? that just .008% of the at least 66 million fully-vaccinated people in the u.s., have caught covid, as far as we know. and of that tiny, infinitesimal pool, only 7% of those so-called breakthrough cases have been severe enough to require hospitalization. these vaccines are mind-blowingly effective. in israel, where more than half the population is now fully vaccinated, new cases have just fallen off the cliff. i mean, look at that chart. that's what you want to see. it really looks like they have broken the back of this thing. cases are, also, starting to drop in new york city where more
than a third of residents have received at least one dose. and many, many people, likely, already have antibodies because this city and area got hit so, very hard in the first wave. so these vaccines. they are a gift of science and human struggle and inquiry, that have been given to us to, finally, provide a definitive way out of this thing. but they are being polarized, along political lines by devious, insidious, or maybe just inattentive actors on the right. here's donald trump and florida governor ron desantis, who wouldn't even take the simple step of just getting vaccinated in public to encourage others to do the same. do the same. in fact, when a maga figure, like ivanka trump, does get publicly vaccinated, which, by the way, good for her. thank you for doing that. they are met with vitriol. responses, like, nope. i never will. hell no, why would you post this? i have an immune system for a reason. and now, we are getting data to
back that sentiment up. that's not just instagram trolls. new polling from monmouth finds that 43% of republicans want to avoid the vaccine altogether, compared to just 5% of democrats. this map showing the percentage of vaccine supply used in each state paints a stark picture, too. the lightest shade of green here represents the lowest percentages. that is the most amount of vaccine sitting around going unused and you can see a big grouping right there. arkansas, louisiana, mississippi, alabama, georgia. so, here we are. okay? after this unimaginably awful year. this incredible thing that science produced, giving us a way out. we just have to take it. and the other thing is our government is actually doing a good job for the first time in this pandemic. the last obstacle is this nihilistic, psychotic political movement on the american right telling americans their freedom is being violated by measures intended to save their lives.
>> what measure, what standard, what objective outcome do we have to reach before -- before americans get their liberty and freedoms back? >> you know, i -- you -- you're indicating liberty and freedom. i look at it as a public-health measure, to prevent people from dying and going to the hospital. >> you don't think americans' liberties have been threatened the last year, dr. fauci? they have been assaulted. >> okay. well, there is a way out of this, right? let's vaccinate our way out of it. now, there is one place where this dangerous propaganda has come from more than any other, maybe aside from donald trump. throughout the pandemic, right? i am just talking all the way from the beginning and that's fox news. i mean, when you take a step back, from the beginning, they have tried every single way of undermining the response to coronavirus. even before the vaccine came along, they spread lies and railed against every-possible solution we had. all the public-health measures, that were at our disposal to try to save lives. >> i'm not afraid of the coronavirus, and no one else should be that afraid, either. >> one thing we have learned is,
even when there is an amongst t thousands, in our case over 10,000 people, it is very, very difficult to contract this virus. >> i feel like, the more i learn about this, the less there is to worry about. >> it's a virus. like, the flu. >> it's actually the safest time to fly. everyone i know that is flying right now, terminals are pretty much dead. >> by having total-population isolation, we are preventing natural immunity from developing. >> now, these endless, one-size-fits-all, lockdown orders, like the governor of michigan, they need to end now. right now. >> many are willing to take the risk of contracting the virus. we have seen that in the polling, frankly. what they rate as more worrisome to them. and they would risk this, in order to preserve their way of life. >> mr. vice president, i'm holding up a letter. and i am going to read from it, in a second. from a doctor in the new york area. and he has a regimen. hydroxychloroquine.
i would use it for me and i am only speaking for me. >> okay. so, we had the lockdowns that -- it -- it's just like the flu. it's actually not that bad. it's hard to get. the lockdowns don't work. the lockdowns are tyrannical. the hydroxychloroquine, the malaria drug, remember, you should take that. here is the thing. a lot of the animus on that network directed at the public-health measures like, you know, shelter-in-place orders, closing down businesses, social distancing. those did have a lot of really brutal costs. i mean, right? we all experienced them. sitting in our homes, not sending our kids to school. i mean, some level of frustration with that made sense. but here's the thing. we've, now, got a way out of that, okay? we can vaccinate our way out of the pandemic, and not have to deal with those things. but now, now that we're at that point, fox news, especially tucker carlson, is now trying to undermine the vaccines. >> how effective is this coronavirus vaccine? how necessary is it to take the vaccine?
don't dismiss those questions from anti-vaxxers. it is possible, in fact, that this vaccine is more dangerous than they're indicating it is. why are joe biden and kamala harris still wearing their silly, little obedience masks everywhere they go? they've been vaccinated. so is everyone around them. so, why the masks? why the restrictions? what exactly is going on here? we know it's not science. we know that, for certain. >> if vaccines work. why are vaccinated people still banned from living normal lives? maybe, it doesn't work and they are simply not telling you that. >> yeah. why? why all this -- why? why? i'm just asking questions. why am i always asking questions. i don't know. i'm just asking questions. okay? all of that has been flowing over the airways, into millions of american homes. the head of fox news' parent company, lockland murdock, he moved his family to australia. now, let's be clear, here. that makes a certain amount of sense. of course, his father grew up there, started his career there.
and lord knows, i don't begrudge anyone moving their family anywhere. but it is notable because australia is a place that basically does not have the coronavirus. which would be a nice thing to experience. but, you know, the reason they don't have it is their government undertook stringent public-health measures at the beginning of the pandemic to lock people in place, to stop them from moving around, to contact trace and snuff out the virus. and when it reappeared, you know what they did? they locked down, again. and when people violated the movement restrictions, which were stricter than anything, any state in america ever did, it was front-page news and a national scandal. teenagers. crossing the queensland border. and through those policies that fox news would describe as absolute tyranny and whip up anger against if they happened here. well, australia basically got rid of the virus. so murdock can live in australia, along with the rest of that country. as if covid basically doesn't exist. and they can enjoy their music festivals and go out to eat and have weddings and all that stuff.
lucky him. the only reason that was possible is because of a government, that was able to undertake the kinds of policies that murdock's own network has been subverting and sabotaging, from day one. the outcome in the united states is, in no small part, on their hands. it continues to be to this day because we are not out of the woods, yet. michigan governor gretchen whitmer was the target of some of the most vicious propaganda from fox news and donald trump over her attempts to control the pandemic. even faced down armed protestors at the capitol building and her state now suffering from the worst outbreak in the country. and, governor whitmer, thank you for being here. first, i just want to get a top-line read on how the state of michigan is doing. >> well, we know that we are seeing a resurgence of covid, all across our state. and i think, some of it is because we, as a nation, did not rally to beat this virus. we have turned on one another and this virus has taken an incredible toll on us. we, in michigan, still smart policies in place.
i don't currently have all the same powers i did, a year ago. but we do still have a mask mandate. we do, still, have capacity requirements. i mean, we have got some of the strongest protocols in the country. and yet, this virus has come raging back. we, for a long time, kept -- kept spread amongst the lowest across the country. which means, now that we have variants here, we have got a lot of people that didn't catch the virus, which is a good thing. but now, they are vulnerable. and that's why we're really pushing to try to get people vaccinated. to use monoclonal antibodies for people that are diagnosed with covid. and pulling out all the stops to try to get our population safe. but it's on all of us to do our part, at this juncture. >> if someone reads the news and they follow this story. and they think, why? why michigan? right? i mean, it's like michigan is not really an outlier, in terms of where you are in the stale of open or closed, right? not particularly aggressive. it's not a real outlier, in terms of if you look at like mobility data from google maps and things like that. it's not like people are going around, socializing more.
what is the answer to that question, in your mind? i think -- i think we may have -- may have lost the governor, who froze there. we may have her back. governor, are you there? >> i'm here. >> sorry about that. >> i don't know what happened but i'm back. >> good. the answer to the question of why michigan? what is your understanding of that from the public-health experts in your state? >> so, you know, we have been consulting with, amongst ourselves, as well as with national experts. and it truly is, for a longest time, we had under-3% covid positivity in michigan. we were the envy of much of the country. >> yep. >> unfortunately, now that people are exhausted and they are moving more, and we have variants on the scene. that means we have got reservoirs of people that don't have antibodies. and the variants are really prevalent here, in michigan. it's the dominant form of covid or, soon, will be. and they're just so much easier to catch and that's why we are putting so much of our effort
into getting people vaccinated. asking everyone across our state to continue taking this seriously. double down on the protocols. follow the rules. and stay safe. and it -- it's -- it's just a really tough time. but all of these things, kind of, converged to create the situation where we have got a lot of covid and it's spreading fast. >> do you have excess capacity you could put online in terms of vaccination? or are you vaccinating, basically, as much and as fast as you can? >> yeah, we're really proud of our vaccination effort. so, we did a million shots in under-two weeks. we are now going to beat that, in this last-nine days, we will have hit another million. so we are moving fast. over -- about 30% of our public has been fully vaccinated. so, we've made great strides. about 5.7 million shots, in arms. we just need to continue moving forward on that front. and trying to get people to continue taking this seriously, and following the protocols. >> boris johnson, of the uk, of course, who has not been a huge fan of restrictive-public-health measures and also in a country
that has been vaccinating quite aggressively. had, i think, born of the same variant, the 117, an outbreak in the uk, and they basically ordered a kind of shut -- shutdown for two weeks. he's now credited that with breaking the back of the epidemic. do you have the political ability to do that in your state, after all that you've been through? >> well, i was sued by the republican legislature here in michigan. and i lost in the supreme court. it was a republican-dominated supreme court. and i lost some of those executive powers. we do retain some powers. but we are so, incredibly divided after, i think, the politics of the last-14 months. and so, it is a very difficult moment where i am still trying to get the legislature to just deploy resources the trump administration sent us. so, what might seem like a natural thing to do is much more complicated than what the cdc might suggest when you look at the reality here, on the ground. but we do have some of the strongest protocols in place.
and if people would double down on it, and get -- make their vaccination appointment, we will get through this. >> all right. go get vaccinated, michiganders and everyone else. governor gretchen whitmer, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you. as we watched the attack on the capitol unfold on january 6th. i think we all had the collective reaction, in real time, right? as we are watching and the minutes are ticking by. where is the backup? why haven't more police shown up as hoards of violent rioters push through the capitol? well, now, there is a brand-new investigation from "the washington post" about the urgent calls for backup from one d.c. police commander facing down the mob. 17 calls, in 78 minutes. that story, next. at story, next ♪ your purple prose just gives you away ♪ ♪ the things, you say you're unbelievable. oh! ♪ ♪♪ ♪ you're so unbelievable ♪ ♪♪ applebee's irresist-a-bowls are back.
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it has been more than three months since the insurrection at the capitol. and we still don't have a full accounting of the failures that allowed a mob of trump supporters to overrun police and their attempt to overturn democracy. today, the u.s. capitol police's internal watchdog testified before house committee that capitol police had failed to adequately disseminate intelligence information. that rank-and-file officers were not warned about the looming threat. >> were the officers, the rank and file, the captains, lieutenants, were they briefed by the supervisors prior to going on duty, about the level of force insurrectionists had described using on january 6th? >> the answer to your question, no. we don't -- haven't seen where the basic-line officers, the rank and file, were briefed,
totally, on the intelligence that they had. and that's one of the reasons why we're saying let's get our folks with security clearances that they can have the ability to view any type of intelligence documents. and not any type of watered down -- it's, they get the information that they need to do their jobs. and to be safe. >> testimony follows 104-page report from that inspector general that found that officials had been warned explicitly that trump supporters, fueled by the president's repeated lies the election had been stolen made specific plans to target congress. that they were actively promoting violence. a january 3rd assessment warned the target were not necessarily counter-protestors but, rather, congress, itself. and that stop the steal's propensity to attract white supremacists, militia members and others who actively promote violence may lead to a significantly dangerous situation for law enforcement and the general public, alike. the failures to adequately
prepare led to capitol police, of course, being overwhelmed and overmatched by the trump mob. at least 138 officers in the capitol police, d.c. metropolitan police department, sustaining injuries, including concussions, fractures, and burns. as well, of course, the death of capitol police officer brian sicknick. now, "the washington post" has reconstructed how those failures left police severely disadvantaged with one d.c. police commander requesting backup at-least-17 times, as the mob swelled to massively outnumber officers. >> reporter: the violence intensifies. >> when i -- when i showed up. it was -- it was literally a war zone. we had officers engaged in hand-to-hand combat, across the fence line. it was a knock-down, drag-out fight. >> reporter: around this time, glover, again, asks for reinforcements. he is told only one platoon, unit 42, is available. >> there is 42.
it is the only other one, until later. they are gearing up and they should be to you now. >> reporter: as unit 42 begins to make its way to the capitol, glover signals that the danger has escalated. >> we are going to give riot warnings. we are going to try and get compliance but this is now effectively a riot. >> i am joined now by one of the reporters who put together that amazing, 18-minute reconstruction of the events that day. "washington post" video reporter, sarah kalin. sarah, it's fantastic work. i learned a lot from it. how did you -- how did you put this reconstruction of that timeline together? >> yeah. so, thank you for having me. how we brought this video sync together is we did something called a visual timeline. so, we grabbed as much footage as we can of the east side and the west side of the capitol. and we put it in a visual timeline, by using time codes from videographers and, also, time codes from live-streams.
we were able to bring that, all, together. and then, we were able to take the communications, the radio communications, from the washington's metropolitan police department. and pair it together, with the visual timeline. so, we were able to see what was happening. and also, hear, like, mpd commander robert glover requesting, 17 times, backup in 78 minutes. >> yeah. that -- that part of it is what i found really illuminating about this. obviously, you know, we have gone through a lot of footage on the program. and i have -- i've been, you know, through this a lot. hearing that match with those radio calls showed, a, a level of distress, near panic. and also, the fact that there was just no one on the other end. there was no -- there were no people to be deployed. like, they keep saying, where is everyone? and they are getting, what? >> yeah. exactly. we do hear a response where they say that unit 42 is going to
attempt to provide backup. they -- though, when that announcement comes out that they are going to provide backup. it takes 20 minutes -- over-20 minutes for them to get to glover. we can see, in the footage, that they are completely surrounded by the mob. and there is really no-clear path for them to get to glover and the other-mpd officers. >> there's, at one point, the invocation of a dso team that they're asking for. what is that? >> yeah. the dso team is a team that is going to help the officers. it's something that they could really use. it could really help them in their trying to protect that line. as they can see on the screen, they're -- they're really trying to protect that platform from the rioters to -- who are trying to completely overwhelm them. and get closer to the capitol. >> do we have a clearer picture?
so -- the -- the -- the line here that, when you put all this together, right? you see they are overwhelmed. there's not really a lot of extra resources to even be called in. and when you look at the ig report, you match the, sort of, failures of intelligence. like, do we have a definitive account, yet, of what -- why there was no backup, basically? which is, i think, the big question of that day. >> yeah. i think our reconstruction just continues to raise those questions of, why does an officer have to request backup 17 times, in 78 minutes? why did they not have enough munitions? why did they not have the protective equipment? why were communications completely breaking down? because we can hear it in the radio, that no one's responding. that it -- it's just complete chaos, and they are requesting backup and it's -- it's just not coming. >> sarah, who worked on that great piece of video reporting for "the washington post."
thanks for being with me tonight. >> thank you for having me. still ahead. we will report, live, from chicago as that city reacts to newly-released body-camera footage of a chicago police officer, fatally, shooting a 13-year-old boy. r-d olboy. we and we want you to see yourself in your new glasses and think, "ooh!" but if you get home and your "ooh" is more of a "hmm..." you have 100 days to change your mind. that's the visionworks difference. visionworks. see the difference. are you one of the millions of americans who experience occasional bloating, gas or abdominal discomfort? taking align can help. align contains a quality probiotic to naturally help soothe digestive upsets 24/7. try align, the pros in digestive health. and join the align healthy gut team up and learn what millions of align users already know. how great a healthy gut can feel. sign up at alignprobiotics.com also try align dualbiotics gummies to help support digestive health. [sfx: psst psst]
tonight, protestors have gathered in chicago after that city's civilian office of police accountability released harrowing body-cam footage this afternoon, showing the moment when a chicago police officer fatally shot a 13-year-old boy last month. police say they had responded to a call of shots fired in the neighborhood, around 2:30 a.m., on march 29th in the little village neighborhood of chicago. they found 13-year-old adam toledo in an alley with a 21-year-old man and the pair fled. that's the account police have given. an officer chased after toledo. we have video of that. and after catching up to him, shot and killed him. the body-camera footage is incredibly disturbing. we are not going to show you
shooting, itself, nor play the gunshot. we are going to show you the moments leading up to the shooting and it's very upsetting. chasing toledo down the alley. ordering him to stop and drop it. what appeared to be a single-gunshot rang out and toledo collapsed. place maintain toledo was holding a gun, immediately before the officer fired. video from a nearby-security camera appears to show toledo throwing something behind a fence, just a moment before. this is a still, though, from the body-cam video. right? a split second, before toledo was shot, with his hands up there. now, attorney for toledo's family says it shows the 13-year-old was not holding a gun at the moment when he was shot by the officer. chicago is mourning this boy. this boy. this 13-year-old boy, adam toledo, tonight. and his family. and chicago mayor lori lightfoot
calling for calm amidst all the anguish. nbc correspondent, antonia hilton joins me with the latest. antonia, i think this story is new to most people, outside of chicago. but it has been a point of intense focus, in the city, for about a month, now. take us through it. >> that's exactly right, chris. i mean, there's been so many heartbreaking cases and coverage, recently, that in some ways, the story here in chicago has been drowned out. but adam toledo's case here has been on the front of minds here of protestors but also just regular folks that i have spoken to throughout my time here in the city. this is a 13-year-old boy. a boy who was in 7th grade. killed in the early hours of march 29th. and, you know, as you mentioned, this narrative, initially, emerged that this was a 13-year-old. a gang-affiliated 13-year-old that, likely, that when we would see the footage, we would see someone who was menacing an officer, who would have a gun in
their hand. who posed an imminent threat. and from what we've seen here, you know, people feel betrayed. i mean, they knew that the -- that the video that was going to come out today would be horrific. that it would be traumatizing to watch, as it would be to see any 13-year-old shot and killed in that manner. but, you know, what people have been shocked by as i have spoken to people tonight is that there were none of these elements that prosecutors and others in the city led them to believe were going to be there. you know what people here saw was a 13-year-old with his hands up, complying with an officer's order. so in addition to the anger people expected to feel, people here, tonight, feel an extreme level of betrayal and heartbreak. and the family is calling for calm. people have respected their wishes. but you can expect to see the -- the hurt play out, throughout this night. >> we should note, antonia, that -- you know, that the context here, of course, in the city of chicago, a city that's paid, if i'm recalling this correct, about $700 million in civil settlements for police
lawsuits over the last decade. this is a city, where, of course, mcdonald, a teenage boy was shot and killed by police. and at first, the initial account was that he had been a threat or he had lunged towards an officer. and that videotape was kept under wraps, subsequently released. so, there is a kind of deep, fundamental, contextual distrust here that even precedes this incident. >> absolutely. that's exactly right. and actually, in the crowd tonight, there are a couple mothers of other, young boys who were murdered, by chicago police officers. and they feel like they've formed a club here, of people who have been, in some cases, for decades, raising alarms about this. you know, in the case of adam toledo's family, they were able to see the video and have it released, publicly, relatively quickly. when we compare it to other-past cases in chicago. but, you know, there -- there is this -- one of the mothers talked to me tonight about how
there is a pattern, here. that they feel like, you know, the city mobilizes. officials mobilize. a narrative comes out about people, these kids, who in many cases are in their early 20s or teens and in this boy's case. and, you know, the narrative is set that -- that they are, you know, demonized, in some way. responsible for their own death. and that these mothers, basically, have now come together and have to be part of this club. this grieving group they never wanted to ever be a part of. and, you know, they are, you know, in some cases, grateful to have each other. but for the most part, shocked and disturbed that, here, they are, in 2021. after mcdonald but also, many, other lesser-known cases that have similar patterns to all of those. and they are still, you know, fighting for the same cause. >> antonia hilton who is there live in the city of chicago at this moment. thank you for that update. appreciate it. tonight, former-minneapolis police officer, derek chauvin, pleads the fifth and the defense rests. we will talk about what happens next in the uphill battle of the conviction, right after this. ghs
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today was the final day of testimony in the trial of derek chauvin. it ended with him invoking his fifth amendment right not to testify. closing arguments are now set to begin on monday. i think, if you have been watching this network and following the trial, it's very hard to see how this man could be acquitted. and yet, let's remember the context here, right? first of all, these are jurors who are selected for not knowing much about the case or forming an opinion about it. and this is arguably the single-most publicized news story in america last year. so if you are the kind of person who follows news every day, it's hard to model what is going through the minds of these 12 jurors, whose perceptions may be easily influenced. secondly, there is the history of police violence against unarmed -- that has not led to
convictions. 30 years ago, the trial of police officers, who beat rodney king. >> reporter: a black man, whose car had been stopped by los angeles police officers was in the street. an apartment dweller across the street took the videotape after hearing it going on. the amateur cameraman said it appeared to him the suspect was attempting to cooperate, when the beating with night sticks began. >> that moment is seared into everyone's minds who lived through it. it was one of the first moments where a bystander was able to capture what was happening. this kind of thing, on videotape, for all the world to see. and yet, those four l.a. police officers were acquitted. in 2014, here in, new york, there was, of course, eric garner. captured now-former police officer putting garner in that choke hold. he was then swarmed by officers and fell to the ground. and garner's final words were, i can't breathe. and yet, a grand jury declined to indict the officer. didn't even go to trial. one-year later, in 2015, there
was the incredibly egregious case of walter scott in south carolina. we covered that case. we were down in north charleston. he was pulled over for a broken taillight. after a brief interaction, he -- he ran. the officer put three bullets in his back. the killing was recorded on a cellphone. the officer, michael slater, was charged with murder. but a judge declared a mistrial because of a hung jury. slater was eventually convicted on federal charges of second-degree murder. those are just three examples. we could list a lot more. so no one should have any illusions about the outcome of this trial being, in any way, decided. david henderson's a civil rights attorney, former prosecutor, who's been following the trial throughout and he joins me, now. i guess, first, your thoughts on that note? as someone, who's practiced as prosecutor and civil rights attorney. >> well, chris, from the examples you just mentioned, walter scott stands out as being
most applicable here because i do see a pobltd for a hung jury, any time you have got a police officer on trial. the challenge with the other examples that you offered, which i agree with, is more along the lines of the fact that i don't know the prosecutors in those cases were fully committed to getting a conviction, in the first place. take eric garner's. normally, the grand jury does whatever the prosecution tells them to do. the fact they didn't even indict him indicates to me, prosecutors were not committed to the case. >> well, that's one thing that people have noted about the strength of this case, from a prosecutorial standpoint is that you have the entire minneapolis police department lined up behind the prosecutors, and testifying. which people have noted as -- as -- as different than other cases, like this, they've seen. >> no, that's absolutely true. i think that does represent problems for this case, in that the minneapolis police department is not innocent. derek chauvin's guilty. that doesn't make the minneapolis-police department innocent. but that said, you have had police officers lining up to testify.
you had a police chief come in and testify. and we had the best team of experts, that i can ever remember seeing in a criminal case, who testified on behalf of the side representing george floyd in trying to convict derek chauvin. so, if you add those things up, and you combine them with the diversity on this jury. i'm not aware of a jury that was this diverse in a case, where a police officer was exonerated for wrongfully killing an unarmed-black man. >> let me -- let me play you the exchange today, in which derek chauvin invoked his fifth-amendment rights. which i found just strange and wild to watch, partly because we were hearing derek chauvin speak for the first time. it was, also, a sort of interesting back and forth. take a listen. >> we've had this conversation, repeatedly, correct? >> correct. >> i have, repeatedly, advised you that this is your decision and your decision, alone, right? >> correct. >> i have advised you, and we have gone back and forth on the matter, would be, kind of, an understatement, right? >> yes, it is.
>> have you made a decision, today, whether you intend to testify? or whether you intend to invoke your fifth-amendment privilege? >> i will invoke my fifth-amendment privilege today. >> obviously, an important, constitutional right that he has access to and juries cannot negatively infer anything from that decision. what do you think about the decision, in the context of the trial? >> in the context of the trial? i think, it was the right decision. now, i think the defense should have taken a completely different approach to this trial, from the beginning. i think they should have put in context that police problems are systemic. and that derek chauvin was part of those systemic-police problems. they chose not to do that. and given that they chose not to do that, it makes sense for him to not take the stand. he's going to take the stand and say something, to the effect of, i did my job, i'd do it again. which i am inclined to believe, based on the rest of the approach that the defense took, it makes sense not to put him on the stand because he is only going to make matters worse by testifying. >> let's turn, back, to the
first thing you said about a hung jury when happened in the michael slager trial. why did you -- why do you think about that as a possibility, here? >> because, chris, we don't know much about these people. even during jury selection, the types of questions that were asked didn't really probe, to the point where we know who is a leader, who is a follower. who's going to be obstinate. and if you just look at the reaction, across the country. in fact, take what's going on in minneapolis right now. with daunte wright's killing. you have the blue -- you have the thin blue line sign flying over police headquarters afterwards. there is a huge divide when it comes to policing and police reform in the country right now. it's not hard to believe you may have someone on that jury who believes, very strongly, in ideas like blue lives matter and hangs this panel up. >> this is what the judge had to say to the jury today as they prepare for what is going to be, obviously, a very intense iv portion for them after closing arguments.
take a listen. >> i think the one thing you need to know today as you leave is how much do i pack? if i were you, i would plan for long and hope for short. basically, it's up to the jury, how long you deliberate. how long you need to come to a unanimous decision, on any count. >> how important are the instructions going to be in this trial? >> i think, the instructions are important but here is the problem. if the jurors go back there and they are really arguing over the instructions, i think that's actually a problem. now, the prosecution has a challenge, in this case, because of the way they have chosen to indict derek chauvin. you have got three different charges that, all, involve the exact-same conduct. and somehow, in closing argument, you are going to have to make it clear, that that same conduct can lead to derek chauvin being convicted on one, two, or all-three of those charges. if, for example, you had a felony murder, based on somebody robbing a bank. and someone gets killed in the context of robbing the bank. it makes sense to argue
two-separate charges. but here, you have got the exact-same conduct, that you are trying to say can make someone guilty three-different ways. that's how that jury instruction can become confusing and problematic during deliberations. >> that's a really, really good point. they were essentially trying to create insurance for themselves but it also creates some confusion, in terms of why? why do you need the three different charges? david henderson, that was illuminating. thank you very much. >> thank you. next, republicans ensure the supreme court will have a conservative majority for years to come. but there is a way to balance things out, maybe? senator ed markey on the new push to, yes, expand the court, after this. is feel the cool rush of claritin cool mint chewables. powerful 24-hour, non-drowsy, allergy relief plus an immediate cooling sensation for your throat. feel the clarity, and live claritin clear.
13-member supreme court. >> how do you solve a problem like the roberts court? a court that has six out of nine justices that are, well, ideologically to the right. well, maybe you can just increase the number of supreme court justices. does that sound impossible? maybe. but it's not impossible because, you know, the constitution says you can't. it's just a matter of getting enough people on board to do it. and there are people out there who want to do it, like people, for instance, like massachusetts senator ed markey who with a group of lawmakers proposed a bill to expand the supreme court to 13 seats today. the speaker of the house, nncy pelosi, said she had, quote, no plans to bring it to the floor. but figuring out a way to deal
with the roberts court, which has a lot of conservative justices who are quite young, is going to be important if democrats want to do things, like protect abortion rights, lgbtq rights. senator ed markey joins me now. senator markey, talk me through how the bill would work. >> well, the bill would amend the u.s. code. it would increase the number of supreme court justices from nine to 13. the number nine is not in the united states constitution. originally we only had six supreme court justices. so the number has been changed six or seven times in our history. and it just requires an alteration of the u.s. code and it would be done by congress. and so we want to begin this debate because of the
historically unprecedented actions which the republicans have taken over the last five years to steal two supreme court seats. >> you know, the historic precedent here that people i think call to mind is fdr and the new deal. he was pushing this new progressive legislation at a time of national crisis. he inherited a very conservative court which kept striking it down, striking it down. people see it as an iconic example of overreach. what do you say to people who say this is dangerous and crazy and wild-eyed? >> i would say the republicans just engaged in crazy, wild overreach when justice scalia passed away, the republicans decided they were going to keep the vacancy for 14 months and not allow barack obama to have a
replacement who would be confirmed, that would be merrick garland. 14 months of vacancy. it was 4-4, only eight supreme court justices for those 14 months. and then after saying it was a sacrosanct tradition that there were no confirmations during an election year, in 2020, when the late, great justice ginsburg passed away, a week before the election, the republicans confirmed amy coney barrett. and so they stole two seats, flat out. it was outrageous. and it's led to a 6-3 court which unfortunately will be in a position on civil rights, on women's right to choose, on environmental issues, on voting rights issues, to now overturn settled law in our country that has been on the books to protect ordinary americans for generations. >> how would you classify the level of support for this legislation among just the democratic caucus? because i'm not sure right now
it's even a 50% proposition among democrats. >> well, all issues go through three phases, political education, political activation. i think everyone will stipulate that what the republicans did was historically egregious in stealing the two seats. and i think what's going to become more and more apparent as each week, as each month goes by, as each decision is made by the supreme court in changing fundamental bedrock principles that have been established for generations, there's going to be a building crescendo that demands that there be a fundamental change at the supreme court. otherwise the republicans will have their all-time wish list fulfilled, that they are able, through the supreme court, bringing up cases through the district courts which they packed over the last four years, to overturn progressive laws, progressive legislation that has been on the books protecting americans for generations.
>> do you think there's a sort of politically strategic pause bit roberts court right now not to do that while this issue is hot? >> i don't know that. but i do know that democracy is on trial. what happened over those five years from the year before trump was actually sworn in to the day he left is a fundamental assault upon the integrity of the supreme court. the supreme court is fundamentally broken. ultimately we can anticipate decisions from the supreme court that are absolutely going to create a public cry for a change in the numbers of the supreme court so that they cannot continue their undermining, their destruction of historic progressive laws that have been put on the books. >> senator ed markey of massachusetts has introduced that legislation to expand the court to 13 members. thank you so much for your time.
>> you're welcome, thank you. that is "all in" for this thursday evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris, thanks, my friend, much appreciated. thanks to you at home for joining us at this hour. as we speak, ten russian officials who are ostensibly on the diplomatic staff at the russian embassy in washington and in new york, presumably at the russian consulate there, tonight ten different russian officials have been told by the biden administration that they've got 30 days to leave the united states. now, i'm being a little bit woolly about what their jobs are, because in instances like this, the general perception is that the russians are being kicked out of the country tonight even though they may work at the embassy or the consulate, the perception generally is these folks are being asked to leave because they are not legitimate diplomats. again, generally speaking, the idea here is that whoever the guy is is not really like the