tv Morning Joe MSNBC April 16, 2021 3:00am-6:00am PDT
day that we are marking 100 days since the siege on the u.s. capitol. we have a lot of work and a lot of healing to do. thank you for getting up way too early with us on this friday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, april 16th. along with joe, willie and me, we have historian and rogers chair and the american presidency at vanderbilt university, jon meacham, who occasional unofficially advises joe biden and award winning story, historian and writer, keisha n. blaine, an associate professor of history at the university of pittsburgh. there is a lot we are covering this morning. the new round of strict sanctions that the u.s. levied on russia. the comments from the ceo of pfizer that the need for covid booster shots is looking more and more likely. today marks 100 days since the
deadly capitol insurrection and we have new details on that glaring warning signs that were ignored by capitol police days before the riot broke out. we will have the very latest from minnesota where the former officer charged in the death of daunte wright made her first court appearance yesterday. and the defense rests in the murder trial of former officer derek chauvin. yes, first we're following news of yet another mass shooting in america. eight people are dead and several others are injured after a gunman opened fire at a fedex warehouse mere the indianapolis airport. police also say the suspected gunman took his own life. officers responded to reports of shots fired just after 11:00 p.m. local time. at this point, police have not said whether the shooter was an employee of the facility, but an investigation is underway. we will have all the developments in this story as they come in, mika. this is just breaking to us over
the last few hours. we're sifting through the details. we'll get much more on it throughout the morning. >> let's go now to the murder trial of derek chauvin. the former officer decided against taking the stand yesterday. chauvin invoked his fifth amendment right against self-incrimination, passing up his final chance to give his side of the story to the jury. >> have you made a decision today whether you intend to testify or whether you intend to invoke your fifth amendment privilege? >> i will invoke my fifth amendment privilege today. with that decision, the defense rested its case. let's bring in professor of law at george washington university and chuck rosenberg is with us this morning. >> paul butler, was it just too
much of a risk for the defense to put the defendant on the stand. and were you expecting this? was this a surprise or did you think this was the most prudent move for the defense? >> joe, the conventional wisdom was that this person would not take the stand, precisely because it was a great risk. jurors like to hear from the person who was on trial, but if chauvin had taken stand, he risked being destroyed on cross-examination. prosecutors would have taken him through every second of that 9 minute and 29 second video. and we might have opened the door to the jurors hearing about the many complaints citizens have filed against him in other cases. >> chuck, are jurors more or less likely to convict a
defendant because they refuse to testify? >> i don't know that they're more or less likely. they're instructed by the judge that mr. chauvin, like all defendants, has a fifth amendment right, an absolute privilege not to testify. and they're told to ignore that. for what it's worth, i've tried probably 50 or so criminal cases in federal court and can count on one hand that the defendant will testify. it's rare. and jurors really do try to follow the instructions of a judge to put that aside and not hold it against him. and by the way, paul's exactly right. chauvin would have been subjected to a withering cross, but remember, the core of his defense at this trial was that he did not cause mr. floyd's death. right? that mr. floyd died because of underlying health reasons and the like. and so chauvin's testimony, had he taken the stand, could not have gone to that central issue. he doesn't know anything about
cause of death. so it also, for the reasons that paul stated, it also makes sense not to take the stand if you really can't add anything that's going to materially help you. >> so, chuck, with all the experience you've had trying cases and being a professional prosecutor for years, most of us look at this trial and we think it's a fairly open and shut case for the prosecution. so knowing that, if you're on this prosecution's team and the jury is going into clirks, what are you going to be most concerned about? >> i was always concerned, joe, about that one juror for whatever reason didn't get it or didn't care. i think the prosecution did a
terrific job. i thought their presentation was compelling, logical, linear. i thought they induced facts in a really thoughtful way. i thought their experts were wonderful. if i had to bet, and i'm not a betting guy, the prosecution has done everything it should do and would likely prevail, except for one thing. you need 12 jurors. it must be unanimous. one holdout jury, and you can always have somebody on the panel who doesn't see it the way the prosecution saw it. one holdout jury can mean the difference between a conviction and a hung jury, which is a mistrial. that's what i was worried about. even when i thought my cases went well and even when i thought i proved everything i needed to prove, i worried about that holdout juror. >> and paul, i ask you the same question, based on everything you've seen in the prosecution's case, and now everything you've seen in the defense case. if you're worried about that one
juror, what element of the case or what -- what part of this trial would concern you most as a prosecution that put on a strong case? is it the causation part? are you worried that maybe one juror is going to listen some of the testimony that said, well, he could still breathe, he could still talk, so it suggest that maybe it was drugs or maybe it was something of a weak heart that caused his death. >> joe, the prosecution presented one of the most compelling cases ever in the case of a police officer being prosecuted for murder. the defense had a very difficult time responding to the overwhelming ed of excessive force. and you're right, if there's any issue that they're worried about that the prosecution is worried
about, it's causation. because the defense did a better job on the idea of what killed mr. floyd. remember, they don't have to prove anything. all the defense has to do is raise reasonable doubt that mr. chauvin is responsible so they let the jury consider a meth overdose, a fentanyl overdose, heart disease, lung decide, covid-19, carbon monoxide poisoning and now we'll have to see if that strategy worked with any of the jurors. if it just worked with one, that's a mistrial. >> chuck mentioned carbon monoxide. that was introduced by a former medical examiner who suggested it could have been carbon monoxide poisoning that killed george floyd as he was laying on the ground near the vehicle for so long. the prosecution brought back a witness, dr. martin tobin, a pulmonologist to refute that claim yesterday. let's listen. >> as to the statement that his
carbon oxygen could have increased, that's not possible? >> that's not possible. >> it was at most 0.2%. >> normal. >> which is normal. >> they're talk about the oxygen saturation levels for george floyd at 98%, which is normal. saying it's simply wrong that carbon monoxide killed him. so as you look at the core defense for officer choechb here from his team, it's that perhaps it was underlying health conditions or drugs that killed george floyd. the prosecution had witnesses refuting that. or there was an angry, threatening crowd around officer chauvin and somehow that compelled him to stay in that defensive crouch. have they made those arguments well enough for a jury to have some doubt about the guilt of officer chauvin here? >> i don't think so. i thought the case was compelling and logical and
overwhelming. the defense tried the angry crowd trope and we saw the crowd, willie. we saw the crowd that the officers saw. they were upset, but they were upset because a man was being killed, murdered in front of their eyes. they weren't threatening the police. and oh, by the way, as the prosecution pointed out, the police on the scene didn't call for backup, they didn't feel that threatened. as for cause of death, i think the defense did a better job here. i think they introduced or tried to introduce some doubt. the clip you just played was done perfectly. it was short, it was to the point. it made the argument that the oxygen saturation levels were so high that it could not have been carbon monoxide saying. in fact, i remember dr. tobin saying that everyone in this room, referring to the courtroom, that everyone in the
room has some amount of carbon monoxide in their system, no different than george floyd did on the day that he died. i think that the prosecution by far had the better of the arguments and the better of the evidence. it remains to be seen how the jury reacts to it. >> keisha blaine, i want to get your thoughts here and just, again, the argument about the carbon monoxide, the oxygen saturation, they laid him down by a tailpipe. so again, it goes back to where they put him and what was done to his body as he was dying. i don't know if the defense wants to try to blame the victim in some way, but it's hard to watch,. >> it is, it's very hard to watch. and in ways, they are trying to blame the victim. we've seen this over and over again, certainly in the case of freddie gray, as just one example. also in the case of eric garner, over and over again, every time
these incidences take place, rather than acknowledge the role of the police, there are all of these efforts to blame the victim, to ultimate suggest that they caused their own death. so it's not surprising to see that trope again in this case. >> jon meacham. talk about, we're moving tluz through this trial and near the end of this trial of an event that in many ways transformed united states last year. a tragedy that mobilized a nation and changed the conversation on race. as we move through this trial, what are your reflections. is this something that may be looked back upon, this entire tragic episode, the same way as, say, the 1963 birmingham church
bombing? >> it's a great question. you never know what the timeline of reform is until you know how far the reform got. the american history is a tension mean battle, reform, and reaction. and the key element that faces us as a republic now is making real, producing results from the conversation on race. a lot of friends i have have said, do we really need to have a conversation? can't we take on the self-evident evidence of our eyes and experience and understand that policing reform is necessary. understanding that generational wealth is an essential question. understanding that systemic
racism exists and must be confronted and we do ourselves no favors by thinking that that term that a lot of folks on the center right and others think is overdrawn. we don't do ourselves, as a country, for those who need an attempt of fuller justice, we do ourselves and the country no favors and so i think this trial, the death of george floyd, in many ways, if you look back at the year of 2020, in a lot of lace, lafayette square, the events that unfolded in that terrible period really brought home to people, to whom it shouldn't have been necessary to bring it home, i stipulate, that the trump era had come to manifest many, many, many of our worst impulses.
and so i have a theory that in the national mind to some extent, joe biden kind of became president-elect during lafayette square. that having the president of the united states walking through that tear gas, staging that moment with the bible, at least i did, you could sort of feel people thinking, god, that's enough. and. it was closer than we thought, closer than we wanted. and the final point, i'm fully aware that we just said implies it took the death of black people in america to push a lot of white people hopefully to push against a culture of white
supremacy. these are the most profound of questions. they're immensely complicated. but one thing that's not complicated, which is that what happened to george floyd is a rank and foul injustice and it has to be addressed so that we can push on and there will be fewer fims of a system that has far, far, too long, has privileged folks that look like me and you than other folks. >> another chapter in that story is unfolding not far from the sight of the derek chauvin trial. the former police officer charged with second-degree manslaughter in the shooting of daunte wright made her first court appearance yesterday. the appearance for kim potter, a 26-year veteran of the brooklyn center, minnesota, police department took place via teleconference and lasted about five minutes. potter spoke only once to confirm she was present.
her next court date is may 17th. the family of daunte wright held a press conference yesterday calling for accountability. >> there's never going to be justice for us. justice would bring our son home to us, knocking on the door with a big smile coming in the house. justice isn't even a word to me. i want accountability. 100% accountability. >> my son was very much loved. we loved him a lot. and the way he was killed, he did not deserve that. these young black men being killed, can you blame my son or anyone else for being scared of the police? >> justice? what is justice? do we get to see daunte's smile? we don't get to see that. y'all see the difference? this is a taser. this is a taser! but, no, my nephew was killed with this. a glock.
>> the anguish. oh, my god. it's such a tragedy. paul butler, was it unusual for the officer to be charged as quickly as she was charged? >> it was unusual that it happened literally within days of the event. often, there's a long investigation. but this was an unusual case. taser mistakes happen, but they're very rare. so there's still questions that haven't been answered. how did this officer with 26 years of experience make this mistake. she was actually training other officers when she conducted this stop of mr. wright. the manual for her police department says that officers should not use tasers on people who are operating vehicles and they should aim for the lower body, not the head or the chest.
mr. wright was in a car and he was shot in his chest. >> this is "the new york times" reported that this has happened before. it is uncommon, but those mistakes are made. i'm curious if you're a prosecutor in this case, looking at what happened, looked at her reaction, the reaction of the other police officers. when this trial, if this trial is ever held and there's not a plea before, is this going to be a more difficult case for the prosecution to put on then say, obviously, more than george floyd, but more than what happened in, say, charleston or some of these other cases? >> it will be, because this is a split-second decision. jurors tend to be sympathetic to
police officers and sometimes think even if they made a mistake, they were just trying to do their job. that's why the chauvin trial is so different, because officer chauvin had nine minutes and 29 seconds to adapt, to think, and the prosecution wants the jury to think that he did not adapt in the way that his training and the criminal law requires. >> longtime televangelist and conservative host of the 700 club pat robertson surprised just about everyone yesterday when he sounded off on the state of policing in america. after reporting on the killing of daunte wright, he did a demonstration onset, showing the difference between a gun and a taser. he then said this. >> i am pro police, folks. i think we need the police. we need their service and they do a good job, but if if they
don't stop this onslaught, they cannot do this. the police in virginia picked up a lieutenant in the army and began to give him trouble and our state police are highly trained. but why they don't stop this and this thing that's going on, derek chauvin, they ought to put him under the jail. he has caused so much trouble, kneeling on the death of george floyd, on his neck. it's just terrible, what's happening. and the police, why don't they hope their eyes to what the public relations are? they've got to stop this stuff? >> maybe they need more training. consistent training. >> i think the problem is, we've got to pay them more. we don't have the finest in the police department. they're low-paid people. they don't get adequate. it's not a question of training, it's a question of hiring a more superior workforce and we aren't
doing it. but we need police! we need them. and we need to honor them. and i'm all for it. but at the same time, we cannot have a bunch of clowns running around who are underpaid and who are really not the best and brightest. we've got to have the best in there. >> keisha, for people who don't appreciate how influential pat robertson, the 700 club has been an institution across this country for many, many, many years. and many people listen to the word of pat robertson there. he was referencing the stop of lieutenant nazario. that was for what they said he did not have a tag. he did have the tag. and it escalated to the point where he was sprayed and tased. i guess the question here is of escalation. why expired tags are leading to the death of young men in this
country. >> ultimately, here's where we have to confront a problem we've been avoiding for a long time. and the problem of anti-black racism which aisle identify in this moment. and this is partly why black lives matter as a movement has certainly over the last couple of years been trying to get americans to understand that there's no value when it comes to black people's lives, when it comes to people and when police have encounters with folks who look like me. unfortunately, as we saw play out in the place of daunte wright. there's no sympathy, no understand understanding. there is just this person encountering an individual and being quite belligerent, not even attempting to de-escalate. and an individual doing this who has 26 years of experience. kim potter is the only evidence
you need that scald training is simply not going to cut it. it's not effective and it's about time that we accept the reality that you can train and train and train all day, but at the end of the day, if someone is going to encounter someone who looks like me and come into the situation without valing my life, guess what, the resulting will be the same. >> for younger viewers, not understanding the impact of pat robertson's statement, you and i as southerners know the culture impact that he had across the south and the nation. my grandfather constantly had the 700 club in her home. in 1998, pat robertson ran for president of the united states. he beat george h.w. bush in iowa, and i believe bob dole, as
well. and the republican party as it looked throughout the '90 and beyond was shaped in part by pat robertson, in part by pat buchanan. explain to people growing up who may not have grown up with the 700 club playing in the background of grandparents and neighbors' home, just how impact that statement is coming from a cultural icon like pat robertson. >> i would say for people who are seeing this and sort of being dismissive about robertson because of his long history of remarks and activism, go grab a bible and google the parable of the prodigal son. you know, if somebody does something right you welcome it and you welcome him.
robertson was in many ways kind of the mainstream -- the kind of official embodiment of the rides of the religious right, which really began -- i think it began with the school prayer decision in 1962. it was slow in developing. a lot of white evangelicals stayed out of politics in the mid-1960s, because they were uncomfortable with civil rights, which was a space that was clearly associated with the black church. then jerry falwell was having breakfast in lynchberg, virginia, opens the lynchburg newspaper and there were two stories. one was that lyndon johnson had died the day before and the other was that harry blackman had rendered a decision in roe v. wade. and falwell couldn't eat his breakfast and felt this come possession to get into the public arena, it intersected
with the 1976 bicentennial, this kind of patriotism surge with this religious conservative surge. by 1980, it's a key part of the republican base. and the triumph of ronald reagan over gerald ford and george h.w. bush in that area was a clear signal. and eight years later, pat robertson decided he wanted to run himself. and won a big michigan straw poll. it puzzled george h.w. bush. he thought ministers had a role, but he was puzzled they were running for office. what i think this tells us is that people who use the evidence of their eyes and are able to put aside a pre-existing prism and see things for what they are
and what robertson seems in this moment, and robertson is also fully capable of saying something else today, so the prodigal sun has a very short effect in his life, is that there is the capacity for us to use a god-given intelligence, and if you see it, say it. so chuck rosenberg, let's bring this back to the trial. the day off in the derek chauvin trial. what you will be looking for first in the closing arguments and how quickly the jury comes back or how long it takes to come back? >> i'll take the second part first, willie. i've given up on trying to predict how long it takes juis to resolve cases. the judge told them it could be an hour or a week. actually, could be an hour or a month. you never know. but what i'm looking for is what
i saw in opening statements from the prosecutors if you recall, they were relatively brief. it was under an hour. i would say, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, in my opening statement, i told you i was going to introduce you to the following witness, show you the following facts and show you the following evidence. that's what we did. we kid exactly what we said we were going to do. we laid out a case of murder and laid it out in the ways we told you we were going to do. it in other words, you show the jury that you delivered exactly what you promised. i think that's what you'll see from the prosecution. from the defense, they'll continue to try to poke holes. that's their job. that's the defense attorney's obligation. so i think closing arguments,
prosecution will go first, defense will go second, prosecution will get a brief rebuttal and the final word, i think those are the themes that you will see on monday. >> chuck rosenberg and paul butler, thank you both very much for helping us out this morning. keisha blaine, thank you, as well. we want to mention, you are the co-editor of the recent book, "four hundred souls: a community history of african-american, 1619 to 2019". and still ahead on "morning joe," the united states hits russia with stiff new sanctions in response to cyber attacks and election interference. plus, a fiery exchange between dr. anthony fauci and republican congressman jim jordan about when covid restrictions should be eased, which ended with congresswoman maxine waters telling congressman jordan to, quote, respect the chair and shut your mouth. ,
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welcome back to "morning joe." 35 past the hour. the biden administration is slapping tough new financial sanctions on moscow for a massive hacking operation against government agencies interfering in u.s. elections and strongarming ukraine. the state department will also expel ten russian diplomats. the u.s. says are spies. perhaps the most notable revelation in the sanctions announcement by the biden administration was that a business associate of trump campaign officials in 2016, konstantin kilimnik, had provided sensitive campaign and polling data with russian
intelligence services. it was the first time the u.s. goth has directly drawn a connection from the trump campaign to the kremlin's intelligence services. president biden warned russian president putin of the sanctions in a call, but also proposed that the two meet at a summit. >> if russia continues to interfere with our democracy, i'm prepared to take further actions to respond. it is my responsibility as president of the united states to do so. my bottom line is this. it is in the interest of the united states to work with russia, we should, and we will. where russia seeks to violate the interest of the united states, we will respond. we will always stand in defense of our country, our institutions, our people, and our allies. >> moscow responded with a statement saying in part, quote, u.s. aggressive behavior will certainly lead to a decisive
rebuff. joining us now, former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments, elise jordan, and columnist for the daily beast, michael weis. good to have you both. >> elise, we've been doing this for quite some time, despite donald trump's kowtowing personally to vladimir putin. congress passed a series of tough sanctions against the russians over the past four years. we've passed sanctions going back to 2014. what good do more sanctions do? >> joe, we still have had not a robust response from the u.s. i think that's what we finally got yesterday, when joe biden announced these sanctions. and i frankly think that making official what everyone has known and it has been open knowledge that konstantin kilimnik passed along trump campaign internal polling to russian intelligence and solidifying that in the form
of a statement from the u.s. government is a big deal. and it's frankly just shocking that it hasn't come early. and this has been an open secret. a week, two weeks after the republican convention, an operative that was active in the pro-democracy union in ukraine said, watch this guy, why was he lurking away, why was he at the republican convention? kk, konstantin kilimnik. and now we have confirmation of the role he played. >> so he's friends with paul manafort and rick gates. this lays out what bob mueller didn't get to in his investigation. draws that straight line. i guess the question is, why was paul manafort feeding campaign internal documents, internal polling information to a russian operative to be passed back to the russian government? >> well, you'll remember in the
mueller report that paul manafort owed money to oleg derapashka, a metals magnate, and i believe the phrase he you'd, how do we get whole with oleg? well, one way to get whole with him is to feed sensitive voting information. konstantin kilimnik's educational background suggests he's an officer of the gru, russia's military intelligence agency. and the gru was the organization that did that infamous hack and leak campaign against the dnc. there is no way, there is absolutely zero chance that paul manafort did not know konstantin kilimnik was a russian political officer. because one of the political consultants working in the puerto vallarta orbit, a man named phil griffin, a guy that got konstantin kilimnik his job, told "the washington post," i think in 2018, yeah, we all know this guy was a gru officer.
it was no big deal. he used to go around bragging about it. this was an open secret. but to have the government finally certify the fact that information was being passed to moscow is very important. it's important from a journalistic standpoint. but also, now let's put the entirety of the u.s. government has found over the last five years together. if moscow had this kind of sensitive polling data, that would allow their intelligence services to better target american electorate constituencies, using various strains of disinformation and propaganda, right? "the new york times" has a pretty good piece out this morning, explaining the import of this revelation. and by the way, contained in this bundle of sanctions is also the fact that there are today english language portals that have been stood up by each and every russian intelligence service. the fsb. that's their domestic security service. the svr, their department of
justice, the treasury department naming names, which organizations and which fringe media outlets are actually controlled by russian spies. this is kind of an extraordinary set of revelations. . and i haven't even gotten through everything yet. that's how much there is to digest here. >> president biden calling out russia for interference in elections. the solar winds hack. actions with ukraine and crimea, a long list that was not pointed out by and large by president trump. elise, i want to turn to afghanistan. president biden announcing a couple of days ago that by the 20th anniversary of 9/11 this year, coming up in september, that all american troops will be pulled back from afghanistan and the war would end, effectively, from our point of view. he's been criticized by people like general petraeus. even some moderate democrats, republicans, criticizing him, as well as leaving on a date certain rather than looking at conditions on the ground. what is your read on this decision and whats long-term impact might be?
>> president biden made the right call. he refused to cow down to what was being counseled to him by a lot of generals who get their power from having more troops deployed on a battlefield. he rejected that advice and chose to look at the broader picture of what's in the american national interests. and 20 years in, after over 2,200 american deaths, you had 38 -- over 3,800 american contractors, he decided it is not in the american national interest to have a continued troop presence. it's a decision that was overdue. and i hope that we as americans do the right thing and exit responsibly and that we take care of our allies who work so bravely with us for so many years, at great risk and threat to their families pip hope that we manage to take care of those allies and to get them visas, so that they can be safe and they
will not face persecution for their role working with us. >> the daily beast's michael weis, thank you so much for your reporting. elise, stand by. coming up, a ton of new polling on president biden in recent days. we'll break down the story. it's telling about his performance and his policies so far. "morning joe" is coming right back. far. "morning joe" is coming right ck
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podcast beginning next wednesday. >> as we look at this picture of willie, i'm just curious, did meacham trash his parents and talk about the burden, the many burdens of being an anglican wasp in rural tennessee. >> do you know how hard it is -- do you know how hard it is, you know, to wear the crown, you know, that comes in chattanooga? it's very tricky. it's very tricky. >> right. >> and i will say this. my father-in-law, to his credit, my father-in-law asked if i had trashed him. so there was that. because look what happened -- look what happened to prince philip a week later. >> of course, of course. he's looking out for himself. what will americans learn when -- >> why did she this? >> are you and your publicist going to leak it to the "daily
mail" first, john? >> i don't think you're speaking with the great tone of respect that i came expecting about this. >> no. no, we're not. >> we talked about the arguments in the soul of america, the idea that, you know, it's an imperfect union, it's inherently flawed, and, but as frederick douglas said, there's no soil better adapted to the growth of reform than american soil. so one of the things that we're all grappling with, everyone we've talked about, y'all have talked about this morning, is part of this theme, right? is it, can democracy, can an american democracy, that is in crisis at home, because too many people are not simply recognizing reality and maintaining allegiance to institutions, however frail and fallible, are, in fact, the
product of experience and understanding that we're all fallen and we need these guardrails. and a lot of focus want to take the guardrails away. that's what you saw a hundred days ago today with the insurrection. so it's a conversation about that. and joe, if you want to come to the viewing party, we'll see what we can do. >> it's been quite a journey from the hills of east tennessee to oprah's secret garden for jon meacham. let's watch some of that conversation with oprah. >> you title the book "the soul of america." and i ask this question a lot on super soul, what is the soul? so how do you define the soul of america? >> in hebrew and in greek, soul means breath or life. when god breathed life into mankind in genesis, that word to be translated as soul. when jesus said, greater man have no love than this than to
lay down his life for his friends, life could be translated as soul. i think it's the essence of who we are, it makes us who we are. and it's not entirely good or entirely bad. it's an arena of contention, between those work instincts, against our appetites and ambitions, against our better angels and our impulses for grace and for love. >> jon meacham, you're eloquent, as always, and like nixon, you wear the hard black shoes wherever you are, even on a walk in the garden with oprah. >> it's a little adelaide stevenson meets nixon on the beach. >> the new episode airs tomorrow on discovery plus. >> willie, also, to quote caitlin flanagan, meacham also looked just like harry, looked like he had just been shot out of a canon at the beginning of that interview. but it was very moving. i'm not sure exactly what meacham said, but -- was that meacham's secret garden or was that oprah's secret garden? >> i believe that was oprah's.
it looked reminiscent of other interviews we've seen there. jon, are you regretting coming on to promote this interview at this point? >> actually, about four minutes ago, i began to have a sinking feeling and now it's totally sunk. but if we -- to be serious for one second. >> oh, let's no. >> we're still -- we're still fighting fascism in this country. we're fighting for the future of democracy. and the present and the future of democracy and it seems to me that whether it's the threat from abroad or the threat at home, we have to do all we can, if you believe in the basic efficacy of this system, we have to reform it, we have to perpetuate it, and we have to stand up against folks who want to tear it down because of a will to power.
>> that is so true, jon meacham. though i will say, willie geist, i spilled my drink in my car because of the sharp turn right there. we go from adelaide stevenson's wing tips to that. >> it was good, though. >> it was very good and very important. >> a noble attempt by jon to put us back on the tracks. >> trying to save us from ourselves. evaluate us to our better angels and jon should know by this point, that's not possible. >> truthfully, we could listen to jon all day and often we do. >> oh, i know. >> the new episode airs tomorrow on discovery plus. also available on the super soul podcast beginning next week. >> jon, we love you. >> watch jon with oprah. we'll be right back. jon with o. we'll be right back.
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released over the past few days. here's what we're learning as he nears 100 days in office. first, his approval rating remains high. 54% of those polled by monmouth approve of his job performance. quinnipiac has him at 48%. the npr/pbs/marist poll at 53%, and the pew poll at 49%. americans are also feeling more optimistic according to the monmouth poll. 46% of americans believe the nation is headed in the right direction, versus 50% who think it's on the wrong track. a month ago in the same poll, it was 34% right track, 61% wrong track. another takeaway is the president's infrastructure bill, it's popular. 46% supported it in the latest quinnipiac poll, 38% oppose. the npr/pbs/marist poll shows 56% support, 34% oppose. there's also wide support for
the president's plan to increase taxes on corporations and high earners, according to quinnipiac. 62% support raising corporate taxes. the same poll found 64% support raising taxes on those making $400,000 or more. 31% oppose. the npr/pbs/marist poll find 64% support raising taxes on those same high earners. 33% oppose. the last takeaway, the president's personal ratings are better than his policy ratings. in the new poll, 46% of americans say they like how biden conducts himself while 27% disagree and another 27% have a mixed opinion. that's combined with a 46% that say they like all or many of his policies. elise jordan is still with us. and joining us now, pulitzer
prize-winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. and professor of history at tulane university, walter isaacson is with us as we hit just about right now, the top of the hour. >> so gene robinson, it's interesting, we have a popular president who appears to be personally liked, who is presenting popular policy proposals. some extremely popular policy proposals. and you have, i think for the first time, around half of americans, first time in a long time, half of americans believing this country is headed in the right direction. i wouldn't say we've reentered an era of good feelings, but this is something that we as a country have not seen in a very long time. >> no, we haven't and really for
good reason. for a long time, we were not headed in the right direction. but most americans increasingly think we are. what fascinates me is how popular his specific policies are in that polling, especially the infrastructure bill and his tax proposals and the fact that the republican party, which still has a lot of power, certainly the power to say "no," just refuses to even acknowledge those numbers, much less grapple with them. and has essentially just said, you know, "no," flat-out "no" to any tax increases, to fund infrastructure and made it clear that if they are dragged into this, it will be kicking and screaming. and i don't understand that.
i don't understand how people who are normally good at politics, as they got elected to the house, can look at these numbers and insist that they're going to continue along this path of just saying "no," no, no, to an increasingly popular president, and pan increasingly popular agenda. i don't get it. >> yeah, you know, walter isaacson, we've been saying for some time that mitch mcconnell and the republicans on the hill are using a 2009 playbook, that they've used for the past 12 years, where they just say "no" to everything. say "no" to every policy proposal coming from a democrat. at least on the major issues that are put forward. the major proposals. but you look at covid, 75% of americans supported the covid relief bill. no republicans in the senate supported it. this infrastructure plan is popular.
and then on the issue of taxes, after george h.w. bush raised taxes and was not re-elected in 1992, the republican position for republicans like me when i ran was just simply to say, i will not raise taxes. we are not going to raise taxes. we took control of congress for the first time in a generation, because of bill clinton's tax increases in 1993. and that has been political gospel for republicans. but, again, i'll say it again, we're entering into a new era, and you look at these numbers to see that 65% of americans now support raising taxes on corporations and the highest earners. in fact, the transportation bill becomes more popular when you actually notify the people that you're polling about the corporate tax increases. so, quite a change in america's political landscape.
>> as you said, joe, we're not quite in an era of good feelings, but you can also feel a glimmer of it or at least the possibility of a glimmer of it. and there's a lot of things that joe biden needs to do on his agenda. he's already given us the covid relief package, clearly voting rights, and fighting against voter suppression. climate change, these are big issues. but when it comes to the infrastructure bill, there is a possibility to say, all right, why don't we pursue this era that could be one of less partisanship, because i do believe that that bill or the initial part of that bill could be scaled down. even senators might work with it. and i think that could be an incredibly important part of his legacy, which is to say, after many years of us being so divided, so poisonous in our
politics, let me see if i can do it and sap some of that poison. it wouldn't -- it would be in the interest of some republicans for that to happen, as well. mcconnell has been put into these incredibly awkward positions because it goes against his grain, some of this poisonous. >> and his promise to turn down the temperature in our politics seems to be turning up in some of that polling. if you look at the number on taxes, to pay for this proposed infrastructure bill, more than $2 trillion. that gets at the core of republican opposition to this plan, which is that we're not going to raise taxes. well, if 62% say i'm fine with that, doesn't that sort of gut their argument? of course, they say, there's a bunch of stuff in this bill that we don't think is infrastructure and that democrats are stretching the definition of that word and it's not strictly focused on traditional infrastructure. but if the argument is, we're not going to vote for something
that raises taxes and people are saying, we like infrastructure and we like raising taxes on rich people and companies, where do republicans go with that? >> willie, i don't think it's even about the substance of the policy anymore. i think the necessity of so many republicans politically to oppose democrats for the sake of opposing democrats and to oppose them on cultural grounds, and look at how the biden administration has pursued their policy objectives so far, they're basically saying, we're going to do a lot of this. you can come along or not. and the republican counterproposal for the infrastructure bill was deemed too little, just wasn't going far enough to meet them in the middle so they stuck with their original plan and held their ground firm.
and are showing a willingness to complete their agenda with or without republicans. so republicans can say, he made gestures, but at the end of the day doesn't really want to work us. so that allows them to continue to oppose this on cultural grounds, rather than the substance, which plenty of voters might actually agree with the biden administration on the actual substance of these tax hike proposals. >> all right. we want to turn now to the murder trial of former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin who yesterday decided against taking the stand. chauvin invoked his fifth amendment right against self-incrimination, passing up his final chance to give his side of the story to the jury. have you made a decision today whether you intend to testify or intend to invoke your fifth amendment privilege? >> i will invoke my fifth
amendment privilege today. >> with that decision, the defense rested its case. the prosecution meanwhile attempted to introduce new lab results with george floyd's carbon monoxide levels. but the judge agreed with the defense that it was too late. >> if he even hints that there are test results that the jury has not heard about, it's going to be a mistrial. pure and simple. this late disclosure is not the way we should be operating here. >> closing arguments are set to begin monday. joining us now, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and an msnbc legal analyst, joyce vance. and state attorney for palm beach county, dave aaronberg. dave, i'll start with you. derek chauvin's choice to remain
silent, was that the only choice given everything that was coming at him? he probably would have had a tough time with the prosecution? >> good morning, mika, i think it was probably the right choice, but i think it was predetermined from the beginning, because if you listen to his counselor's opening argument, he didn't seem to mention chauvin very much. he didn't try to humanize him. and that's when it would start. i think the die was cast from the beginning that they weren't going to call him as a witness. he has a fifth amendment right not to testify. and the prosecutors can't point to it and try to create a negative inference. but there is an upside, if he did try to testify, he would try to humanize himself in front of the jury, who only knows him by those horrific videos. also, when it comes to chauvin's defense, state of mind is important. he wants to convince at least some jurors that he didn't have a depraved mind. that on that day, he was following police standards and training. so testifying to his state of
mind could have been helpful. and who knows his state of mind better than chauvin himself. but he's going to remain silent and i see why. prosecutors would have had a field day delving into the previous complaints against him for misconduct. and who would have been say he would have been a tellinging witness. he could have done himself more harm than good, especially under a withering cross-examination. on the whole, i think his lawyer probably made the right call. >> as a former federal prosecutor, you've tried some very difficult cases over the course of your career. by moat accounts, impartial observers, prosecutors like yourself have watched the last couple of weeks and felt the prosecution put on a good case. as you know well, it only takes one juror to have some doubt in his or her mind to get a hung jury. as you come up with these closing arguments on monday and it's turned over to the jury, how would you be feeling as the prosecution in this trial?
>> i always felt pretty itchy as a prosecutor at this point in time, because as you point out, willie, the fate of your case doesn't rest so much on a collective sense of guilt, as it does on the mind of 12 individual people. and we're running as commentators pretty much blind in this case. we can't see the jury, we don't know how they've reacted to the evidence. it's possible that the defense has already singled out a juror or two that they are arguing to in hopes that those jurors will hold out and decline to vote to convict here. reality, this case has come in, the evidence has come in as well as any police of force i've ever seen and you were nice to point out that i've lost some police excessive force cases. these are very difficult cases to get a conviction in and that
doesn't mean they have to convince the jury that their guy is innocent. then the jury hangs and there's no conviction. the prosecution can retry the case down the road. but second trials bring with them their own little basket of issues. here, the prosecution is nervous. they will be until the verdict comes in. they could not have tried their case any better than they did. >> joyce, this is gene robinson, was there an aha moment for either the prosecution and/or the defense in the trial for you? what moments really stand out? >> i think the a that moment happened when derek chauvin put his knee on george floyd's neck and kept it there for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. and among other people who witnessed the incident a young
bystander had the presence of mind to pull out her phone and videotape the entire sequence of events. gene, you know like i do, the force of this case stands on those video images. and it's hard for jurors to think that for three weeks, but they saw it, they heard the testimony of the witnesses. that really is the prosecution's case from start to finish. these images. now we hit the appoint in the case, though, where there's context for this jury. and that context is the law. there are three charges that prosecutors have brought. the judge will instruct the jury on the elements of each of those charges, what they have to find prosecutors to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in order to convict. and jurors tend to take those instructions very seriously. they will deliberate on the evidence, the video, the witnesses who they heard from,
the spark of witness george floyd's brother. george floyd becomes a living, breathing human being to all of us. the jury will have to look derek chauvin in the eye and decide whether or not to hold him responsible for extinguishing george floyd's life. >> all right. i'm looking for our next guest here. dave aaronberg. sorry, palm beach state attorney. dave, i'm curious, the prosecution seemed to revisit the issue of the carbon monoxide and that that was the one thing they came back on. does that indicate to you that they are especially concerned about this? >> mika, i think they were very surprised bit. i think they were a bit blindsided by the testimony and a little worried about it.
so they tried to bring it up in the rebuttal testimony and tried to bring up new evidence and the judge said, no, too late. the prosecutor said, hey, we didn't know about this, we couldn't have anticipated it. the judge said, well, you should have. but they were able to bring up other evidence that got to the same point. they showed that george floyd's oxygen levels were very high. which meant then that he didn't have a lot of carbon monoxide in his system. so i thought they did do a good job with that. and despite the fact that the prosecution did a great job in this case, there are still butterflies in their stomachs, because juries are notoriously unpredictable. and all it takes is one juror with some doubt, one juror who thinks that addiction is a moral failing as opposed to a disease. and if you have reasonable doubt over causation, then that's a hung jury on all three charges,
because all three charges require that element of causation to find chauvin guilty. >> joyce, i wanted to ask you a question, following up on what dave said, that i've been asking quite a few people the past few days, because you stated what i think a lot of us understand, that even when the prosecution puts on a strong case, even when the prosecution puts on what many would consider to be an air tooilgt case, when you're dealing with the prosecution of a police officer, no matter how heinous the incident is, the crime is, the alleged crime is, often there is one or two jurors that are extraordinarily reluctant to actually find that police officer guilty. so with that knowledge, and with the knowledge that the
prosecution has executed this case flawlessly, if you were on that prosecution team, what would you be concerned about when the jurors went back to deliberate? what part of this, what part of this case specifically? >> so i think you're right, joe. the evidence has come in really in such an immaculate form that in terms of the technical elements of the case the prosecution doesn't have a lot to work with. but what we're worried about is this idea of jury nullification. i'm going to put it very plainly, refuse to convict a police officer, because they are pro-police. that is the problem that one sometimes has. i would like to think that we're a more mature america. we've learned a lot as a result of not just george floyd's death, but a series of deaths of black men at the hands of police
that jurors can listen to the evidence from an objective point of view and choose to convict based solely on the evidence. but it's up to the prosecution in this closing argument to hold the jury sternly to task, to tell them that they must decide the case solely based upon the evidence and the law. the jury will hear from the judge, too, but the prosecution needs to bring them home and remind them that they are the ones who will decide whether there will be justice for george floyd or not and that it's a very solemn responsibility. >> joyce vance and dave aaronberg, thank you both very much for being on this morning. have a good weekend. all right. there's been another mass shooting in america. this time in indianapolis. police say at least eight people are dead after a gunman opened fire at a fedex facility near the indianapolis airport. five others were injured and taken to the hospital and two more victims were treated by medics at the scene and
released. police also say the suspected gunman took his own life. officers responded to reports of shots fired just after 11:00 p.m. local time. at this point, police have not said whether the shooter was an employee of the facility, but an investigation is underway. >> it is very heartbreaking and you know, indianapolis, the officers responded, they came in, went in, and did their job. and a lot of them are trying to face us, because this is a sight that no one should ever have to see. >> fedex put out a statement this morning saying in part, we are deeply shocked and saddened by the loss of our team members following the tragic shooting at our fedex ground facility in indianapolis. the safety of our team members is our top priority and we are fully cooperating with investigating authorities. president biden has been made aware of the shooting and will have a thorough briefing later
today. still ahead on "morning joe," while millions of americans are still waiting to get their first dose of the coronavirus vaccine, health experts are already weighing in on the potential need for booster shots in the future. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination.
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an congressional hearing on the pandemic was the scene of a heated exchange between dr. anthony fauci and congressman jim jordan when the ohio congressman pushed the infectious disease doctor on when americans will be able to return to pre-pandemic life. >> we had 15 days to slow the spread, turned into one year of lost liberty. what metrics, what measures, what has to happen before americans get their freedoms back? >> my message, congressman
jordan, is to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as we possibly can, to get the level of infection in this country low so that it is no longer a threat. that is when -- >> what measure, what standard, what objective outcome do we have to reach before -- before americans get their liberty and freedoms back? >> you know, you're indicating liberty and freedom, i look as it a public health measure to prevent people from dying and going to the hospital. >> you don't think americans liberties have been threatened the last year, dr. fauci? they've been assaulted. their liberties have. >> i don't look at this as a liberty thing, congressman jordan. >> well, that's obvious. >> as a public health thing. i disagree with you. >> when will americans get their first amendment liberties back? >> i don't think anything was censure because they felt they couldn't disagree with me. you're making this a personal thing and it isn't. >> it's not a personal thing. >> no, you are! that is exactly what you're
doing. we have about 60,000 infections a day, which is a very large risk for a surge. we're not talking about liberties, we're talking about a pandemic that has killed 560,000 americans. >> mr. chairman, i don't want you to answer my question. the american people want dr. fauci to answer my question. >> your time expired, sir. >> you need to respect the chair and shut your mouth! >> okay. well, that happens once in a while. >> so rude! >> well, you know what's interesting is, it's so personal. and it is personal. >> it was really rude. >> they have lied about dr. fauci, they have spread conspiracy theories about dr. fauci. they have said the most preposterous things. it is personal. they're trying to attack the messenger, who has been warning them, while they've been lying through their teeth to the american people, who has been warning that a lot of people
could die. and a year ago, they kept saying, open things up, everything's fine, what is this? no worse than the flu. no worse -- over 550,000 people are dead. and the lies continue. the scapegoating still continues. no personal liberties were taken away. the supreme court has reviewed cases. the courts have reviewed cases. it's just, it's sheer idiocy playing for the lowest common denominator. >> is it getting clicks being so rude? >> certainly, lies about -- lies about anthony fauci have always gotten clicks. conspiracy theorys have always gotten clicks. i've talked about a stupid -- you have to be a moron to believe it, but there are, i guess, a lot of morons out there. something called plandemmic, where they get somebody to come in just makes things up whole cloth, suggesting he killed people during the aids epidemic. it's all filled with lies, and
yet people are stupid enough to believe it. and so, jim jordan peddles those lies. and peddles the suggest that anthony fauci somehow is the problem instead of a coronavirus that's spread across america and killed 550,000 people. you know, the thing is, before we get to the doctor really quickly, willie, intelligent people, really intelligent people with advanced degrees, really intelligent people i have known my entire life who run actual operations actually believe that doctors are lying on death certificates. and putting that somebody died of covid, because their hospital would make more money. and you know what -- wait, wait, you think a doctor would risk their career by lying on a death certificate?
yes. that's exactly what's happening. this is -- there are people dying of the flu. and again, these aren't people stepping, you know, out of a cave, chewing tobacco and, like, have never gone to school. that's one of the great lies of this trump populism, that it's all a certain group of uneducated, you know, teeming masses. no, no. a lot of the people that i have to talk to every day, that believe these stupid lies, they're really intelligent. they're really wealthy. and they are -- they are in a cult and they can't break out of it. they can't admit that covid was more than the flu. even though science and medicine shows covid was more than the flu. and doctors didn't lie about 550,000 deaths, so their hospitals would make more money. >> and you remember, then
president trump perpetuated that exact lie that you just described about doctors. and well, they weren't all covid death, the numbers are inflated. all of those things that we've heard. and the idea that dr. fauci, dr. anthony fauci is somehow enjoying the shutdown of businesses, that he's somehow profiting from the shutdown of businesses and the, quote, loss of liberty. i would remind mr. jordan that most of that year was under president trump and if he had taken this more seriously, less liberty would have been lost. they're looking for a bogeyman. they think they've found one in dr. fauci. but the facts of the matter is that nearly 570,000 people have died in our country. 570,000 people. no one is enjoying this. no one is profiting from this. everyone wants it to be over, especially dr. fauci. he said his best estimate, by the way, for a return to normalcy would be when new infections drop to about 10,000
a day and emphasized the importance of vaccinations first and foremost. this sunday, nbc will be airing a special, by the way, about vaccines to separate fact from fiction and to encourage americans to get a shot. the event will feature appearances from president joe biden along with former president barack obama and first lady, michelle obama. actor matthew mcconaughey will interview dr. anthony fauci. additional special guests include ellen pompeo and more. the special starts at 7:00 p.m. eastern on nbc. dr. vin gupta will also make an appearance in that special and he joins us now. dr. gupta, it's great to see you. you've been treating covid patients for i guess about 14 months now, since the beginning of all of this. i'm sure it feels like a lifetime to you. i'm just curious about your reaction, specifically to congressman jordan yesterday, but more broadly to the attacks
on people like dr. fauci. >> good morning, willie. good to see you. i actually grew up in what is congressman jordan's district in ohio and my parents are still there. so it's partly just embarrassing to see that behavior towards dr. fauci from a personal lens. and i will say that this distortion of personal freedom isn't new, as you, mika, and joe have been talking about. and really, what we should be keen on is this notion that personal freedom is the ability to live a long, healthy life. and yet that has been distorted constantly for the last 14 months. it's disappointing. to answer the congressman's question, since he didn't let dr. fauci respond to it, dr. fauci is talking about cases and that's certainly one metric. another metric, willie, just looking at hospitalizations. because less people, as we get vaccinated, will want to get tested. they're going to say, why do i need to get tested. so hospitalizations per 100,000 individuals, looking at the stress in our health systems,
it's going to be really vital for us to know that we can safely start opening up, hopefully 75 to 80% of the country gets vaccinated when they're eligible. that's also going to be a really vital metric as behaviors change about testing. >> dr. gupta, it's walter isaacson, and i want to thank you and nbc for doing this special this coming sunday night. because as anthony fauci said, one of the big things is getting people comfortable with vaccines. i mean, here the new orleans, we're doing a program called shot for shots, meaning you go to a local bar, there's music, you get a free shot and you get a free shot for it. that's probably not the best way to have all of america vaccinated. the best way is to have people feel really comfortable with this vaccine. so tell me, what can you when the johnson & johnson news comes out, the astrazeneca news comes out, not to convince people that are dedicated anti-vaxers, but just the normal person saying, is this safe or not?
>> first of all, it's an honor, mr. isaacson, to share a panel with you. i think the cdc really needs to come out quickly and i'm sure they will on narrower guidelines on who can receive the johnson & johnson vaccine safely. stipulating a certain age requirement, there's a lot that uncertain. we're dealing with six to eight cases. this is an exceptionally rare side effect. if this is truly linked to the johnson & johnson vaccine, this blood clot in the brain, but it's going to be hard to navigate -- separate reality from perception and optics. so i do think that stipulating who can and who cannot receive the johnson & johnson vaccine given the uncertainty is vital. but i'm hearing a lot from younger demographics that they're worried about the vaccine causing sterility. or if i've had the infection in the past, i don't need the
vaccine itself because prior infections will protect me. these are the key themes i keep hearing over and over again. so i think we need to tackle those as well, while also finally emphasizing the fact that all of these vaccines, including johnson & johnson, are nearly 100% effective in keeping you out of the hospital. we really need to lean into story telling. and haas what i've been trying to do. >> dr. gupta, this is gene robinson. are we going to need booster shots or subsequent vaccinations in a year or two? and how do you, you know, envision that working out in terms of how much take up you need of the population to keep the immunity going. >> at six months, when pfizer
checked in on those individuals who were in their phase iii trial who received the vaccines, at six months, their antibody levels were through the roof. they had extremely high protection. what does that mean at a year? we don't know for certain, but it is very, very suggestive that in a year, they're going to still have strong protection. and i saw the pfizer ceo come out and say, you're proebl going to need a booster shot anywhere from 6 to 12 months. i think that's some degree of speculation here. i love what dr. kessler said, that government is planning to distribute a booster. but was don't know that. because all of the vaccines protect against all the variants when it comes to hospitalizations and deaths. and that's the only thing that really matters. in terms of uptake, if it does -- if it's determined that we do need a booster, we'll need the same uptake for the booster that we would need for the original vaccine. >> dr. vin gupta, thank you so much. coming up, the latest sign that the economic recovery may be on the right track.
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41 past the hour. in addition to willie's co-hosting role here on "morning joe" -- >> parole officer -- >> yes, he's also the host of "sunday today" for nbc news. this sunday, willie is celebrating five years of the show, which brings you the latest breaking news in politics every sunday, in addition to incredible sunday sit-downs. here are some of the moments willie's had with some of the world's biggest stars. >> i don't like anything where people go whoo. >> love the show. happy to be on it. >> my kids love a good willie
geist interview? >> oh, do they? big "sunday today" fans? >> we're making a film. it's called "willie and al." we'll see you! >> welcome to the wonderful world of tray. >> i love it. >> i was, if you can imagine, a very dramatic child. >> i'm shocked, kerry. i'm shocked. >> i try not to force my children to watch my -- >> have you ever considered wearing a hat in battle. >> no, his hair's too important. >> you do your research. >> i don't know. that's a good question. >> you've done your homework. >> is that a blast to play that character? >> no. >> it's not? >> no. are you kidding me? >> it's uncomfortable, it's hot. i hate the wig, the pantyhose are pulling the hair on my legs. but i love watching the audience's reaction to it. >> my dad's answer ex-cop. he was a very tough man. when he walked into a room, the oxygen could leave like that. so i used to diffuse that with ways to make him laugh. >> i've always felt a sense of
responsibility. >> i enjoy surpassing people's expectations. i think all women do. >> is it snowing? how romantic! >> it's magical! >> what did the band look like at first? did it resemble what we see today? >> yeah, but way worse hair. >> i'm going to sing it right. i want to be merle haggard, not brittney, although i love brittney. >> who doesn't? >> but i can't dance and i don't have abs. >> to be able to work at what you love, that's success. >> i know what it feels like to be knocked down. but i also know what it feels like to get back up. >> there's a cap to greatness. the elixir is living a life that is bigger than you. >> every time i talk to one of these journalists -- every single time, you write, i picture them having sex. >> well, now that you've brought
it up, yeah. yeah, here i am. i'm thinking about it. ♪ who says you can't go home ♪ >> how great is that? >> so awesome. congratulations. what a great show. >> thanks, guys. >> it is a great show. >> so willie, i actually don't like it when people ask me this question, but do you have a favorite guest? >> it's so hard over five years. i hate to pick one, but i will say, riding around beverly hills in a cadillac convertible with al pacino was an out of body experience. he doesn't do a lot of interviews to begin with. the fact that he sat down and talked with me and agreed to go drive around for about an hour. and when you pull up to a stoplight and you look over and al pacino is riding shotgun, you really do feel like you're in a waking dream. that was a wild day. >> what about letterman? >> oh, dave. i mean, joe, you and i love dave. always have loved dave.
another guy who doesn't do a lot of interviews. the funny story behind that, joe, is that we go to the same bait shop up in westchester. so we have to give a little booking credit to todd and charlie up in cross river. so we went and stood in a stream up there. we went fishing together -- he's a big fly fisherman. he went and scouted the stream for a couple of days before our interview to find the right spot. and then sat down with us and talked through his career for like two hours. it was just, again, as someone who grew up and so looked up to him, it was a really special day. >> that had to be a special day. you know, alex and i have a favorite bait shop. it's called sabars. >> a little different. >> willie, we're very proud of you. congratulations. >> thanks, guys. see you sunday. >> yes. coming up, our next guest was granted exclusive access to chronicle the life and work of one of america's greatest literary minds.
we'll tell you who that is, next. we're back in two minutes. who next we're back in two minutes. ♪ na na na na ♪ na na na na... ♪ hey hey hey. ♪ goodbye. ♪ na na na na... ♪ hey hey hey. ♪ goodbye. ♪ na na na na ♪ na na na na... the world's first six-function multipro tailgate. available on the gmc sierra.
when you think of the novels that have chronicled the american conspiracy, from the streets of newark to the courts of alabama, how many young people have come to see the senless cruelty of racism and the importance of standing up for what's right through the eyes of a girl named scout? how many young people have learned to think by reading the exploits of port ana's complaints? >> the 2010 national humanities medal to philip roth, for his contributions to american letters. mr. roth is the author of 24
novels, including port noise complaint, an american pastoral, which won the 1998 prize. >> president obama awarding a 2010 national arts and humanities medal to the prolific author, philip roth, a preeminent figure in 20th century literature. hailed a as one of america's greatest authors. roth was best known for the controversial and explicit novel, portnoy's complaints. he became only the third living writer to have his books enshrined in the library of america. he captured two national book awards, two national book's critical circle awards, three penn faulkner awards, a pulitzer prize, and the man booker international surprise. the associated press once
described roth as a fierce satirist and uncompromising realist, confronting readers in a bold, direct style that scorned false sentiments or hopes or heavenly reward. a 2006 survey by "the new york times" book 1981 found in astonishing six of roth's novels among the top 22. joining us now is acclaimed author blake bailey, who is out now with a new biography of phillip roth. >> so, blake, thank you so much for being on. >> thank you. >> this is a man with an extraordinary legacy. many people would consider him obviously the greatest novelist of the past quarter century or so, but there was one book he wished he hadn't written. there was one book whose -- let me get the exact -- you said whose motor phi z fame he always wanted to outrun.
and there he was at the white house with barack obama making a joke about it and then when they put the medal around his neck, he had to hear the name again. explain why that is so funny and why he wishes he would never have written this book that many people consider to be one of the greatest novels of the 20th century. >> okay. well, right. port noy was published in 1969 and it's on the modern library list of the greatest english language novels of the 20th century. obama's joke was, you know, how many young people learned to think from reading port noise complaint. roth's friend said that george bush could have never pulled that off. that was a pun, by the way. it is about a guilt ridden
compulsively masturbating jewish boy who is hounded and smothered by his doting parents. and as a result, indulges in certain sexual per verseties in addition to the masturbation. and phillip found it really blighted his life. it made him a millionaire many times over, it made him famous. but every time the press would treat him in a way that he regarded as undignified, treated him as a jerkoff artist rather than one of our greatest living artists. he also felt that his second wife, claire bloom, would have never characterized him in such a light as she did in her memoir had been never published portnoy. >> you know, he insisted that his books were not
autobiographical. and, in fact, you say portnoy was the least of the autobiographical, the least that resembled his life. yet, he would always -- he would always play with readers, tease critics by drawing certain parallels with certain characteristics and even calling a character phillip roth. >> yeah. you know, in "operation shylock," phillip roth who is exactly like phillip roth finds out there's an imposter in israel called phillip roth who is selling this wacky theory of diasperism in the plot against america. the protagonist is phillip roth. as far as portnoy is concerned, there was a pretty strong buy graphical basis for it.
phillip's psychiatrist was a man named hans cline schmidt. in 1967, he pushed a paper in a psychological journal and phillip roth appears in that paper as a successful southern playwright. there are several episodes that would appear two years later in the funnier and more stylish form of portnoy's complaint. phillip said what had happened is he had given an early draft to cline schmidt and cline schidt culled episodes from that manuscript. that is not true. cline schmidt refused to read that work and culled episodes from their meetings. >> blake, congratulations on the book. i know as a biographer, one of the most interesting things to
do is to disentangle complex relationships. and you do this in the book with claire bloom, one of the most complex, interesting relationships i think more than two decades they're together. and then she eviscerates him, as you say in the book, in "leaving a doll's life," the memoir. explain for us what it was like for you to try to figure out that relationship and what was at the heart of the conflict they had. >> well, phillip gave me a 295-page professionally copy edited manuscript called notes from my biographer. it was professionally edited because he was going publish it. it's a paragraph by paragraph rebuttal of claire bloom's "leaving a doll's house." so that was helpful to give me phillip's point of view. you know, that book was listed on amazon for a time, happily. phillip's friends saved him from making that blunder because he
does come across as something of a bully in that book. relentlessly self-justifying is what his friends told him about that. you know, in a nutshell, claire bloom's "leaving a doll's house," she has a legitimate grievance. phillip did not have a monogamous bone in his body. he was rampantly adulterus and that is very hurtful to one's spouse. they were together for 20 years and he was generally capable of sexually objectifying women and making incredibly tasteless jokes about it, many of which he put in his books. but phillip was not -- claire characterizes him as this machevelian misogynist bent on
persecuting her and her daughter, anna. and after "leaving a doll'sous," she said her relationship with phillip was the most wonderful relationship of her life. >> she certainly had a revision towards the end. so the "new york times" magazine wrote this in their conclusion about phillip roth in your biography. he got to be remembered as a man, hilarious, mercurial, fickle and mean spirited, too, a man rather than an inert legacy. so human. you know, of all of jesus's disciples, peter was the most human. and so, too, phillip roth and every page of your biography, he's very complex and all too human. >> yeah.
phillip was a delightful guy. and bear in mind when philip was dieing in 2018 at new york presbyterian in the cardiac icu, six or seven or eight of his former lovers, never mind his friends, came to kiss him good-bye because they loved him dearly and he was a darling man. and i saw that. i was there. one of them was 86 and she needed a helper to get there. so philip was a very complicated guy. there's been a lot of talk, especially in europe about canceling philip roth because of claire bloom's book, because of this perception of misogyny. i would say to that you cannot reduce anyone as complicated as philip roth to anyone's label. phillip had lifelong relationships with formidable intellectual women. his lawyers were always women. his favorite editors were always
women and so on. as far as cancel culture, if you expect our great artists to also be perfect human beings, whatever that is, we're going to be left with norman rockwell and the bible. of course, that would be fine with a lot of people, but -- >> the new biography is "philip roth." blake bailey, thank you so much. we appreciate your coming on. still ahead on "morning joe," the defense rests in the derek chauvin murder trial. what do expect before monday's closing arguments. we're back in one minute. nday's closing arguntmes. we're back in one minute psorias. ...the itching ...the burning. the stinging. my skin was no longer mine. my psoriatic arthritis, made my joints stiff, swollen... painful. emerge tremfyant™ with tremfya®, adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... ...can uncover clearer skin and improve symptoms at 16 weeks. tremfya® is also approved for adults
with active psoriatic arthritis. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms or if you had a vaccine or plan to. tremfya®. emerge tremfyant™ janssen can help you explore cost support options. stay restless with the icon that does the same. the rx crafted by lexus. get 0.9% apr financing on the 2021 rx 350 experience amazing at your lexus dealer. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, april 16th. along with joe, willie and me, we have jon meacham. he occasionally unofficially advises president joe biden. and award winning historian
professor and writer kiesha enblain, associate professor of history at the university of pittsburgh. but let's go now to the murder trial of derek chauvin. the former officer decided against taking the stand yesterday. he invoked his 5th amendment right passing up his final chance to give his side to the story to the jury. >> have you made a decision today whether you intend to testify or whether you intend to invoke your 5th amendment privilege? >> i will invoke my 5th amendment privilege today. >> with that decision, the defense rested its case. let's bring in professor of law at georgetown university paul butler, an msnbc legal analyst and former u.s. attorney now an nbc news law enforcement analyst, chuck rosenberg is with us this morning. good to have you both. >> gentlemen, thank you for being with us. paul butler, was it just too
much of a risk for the defense to put the defendant on the stand? i mean -- and were you expecting this? was this a surprise or did you think this was the most prudent move for the defense? >> joe, the conventional wisdom was that this person would not take the stand precisely because it was great risk. jurors like to hear from the person who is on trial, but if chauvin had taken the stand, he risked being destroyed on cross-examination. prosecutors would have taken him through every second of that 9 minute and 29 second video and he might have opened the door to the juror hearing about the many complaints that citizens have filed against him in other cases. >> chuck, are juries more or less likely to convict a defendant because they refuse to
testify? >> you know, i don't know that they're more or less likely. they're instructed, joe, by the judge that mr. chauvin, like all defendants, has a fifth amendment right, an absolute privilege not to testify. and they're told to ignore that. and so for what it's worth, i probably tried 50 or so criminal cases in federal court. i can count on one hand the number of times that a defendant would testify. it's rare. and i think jurors really truly do try and follow the instructions of the judge to put that aside and to not hold it against him. and by the way, paul is exactly right. chauvin would have been subjected to a withering cross. but remember, the core of his defense at this trial was that he did not cause mr. floyd's death. right? that mr. floyd died because of underlying health reasons and the like. so chauvin's testimony, had he taken the stand, could not have gone to that central issue. he doesn't know anything about
cause of death. so it also, for the reasons that paul stated, but also it makes sense not to take the stand if you really can't add anything that's going to materially help you. >> yeah. so, chuck, with all the experience that you've had trying cases and being a professional prosecutor for years, most of us look at this trial and we think it's a fairley open and shut case for the prosecution, but, of course, in these sort of cases involving police officers, it's never an open and shut case. so knowing that, if you're on this prosecution's team and the jury is going in to deliberation, what are you going to be most concerned about? >> i was always concerned, joe, about that one juror, for whatever reason, who didn't get it or didn't care. look, i think the prosecution
did a terrific job. i thought their presentation was compelling, it was logical, it was linear. i thought they adduced facts in a thoughtful way. i thought their experts were wonderful. so if i had to bet -- and i'm not a betting guy -- the prosecution has a case to prevail, except for one thing. you need 12 jurors. one hold out juror, and you can always have somebody on the panel who doesn't see tilt way the prosecution saw it. one hold out juror can mean the difference between a conviction and a hung jury, which is a mistrial. and that's what i always worried about. even when i thought my case went well, even when i thought i proved everything i needed to prove, i worried about that hold out juror. >> and, paul, i ask you the same question. based on everything you've seen and the prosecution's case and now everything you've seen in the defense case, if you're
worried about that one juror, what element of the case or what part of this trial would concern you most as a prosecution that put on a strong case? is it the causation part? are you worried that member one juror is going to listen to some of the testimony that says, well, he could still breathe, he could still talk, he can still -- so it suggests maybe it was drugs or maybe it was something, a weak heart that caused his death. >> joe, the prosecution presented one of the most compelling cases ever in the case of a police officer being prosecuted for murder. the defense had a very difficult time respondsing to the overwhelming evidence of excessive force. and you're right, if there's any issue that they're worried
about, that the prosecution is worried about, it's causation because the defense did a better job on the issue of what killed mr. floyd. remember, they don't have to prove anything. all the defense has to do is raise reasonable doubt that mr. chauvin is responsible. so they let the jury consider a meth overdose, a phenatyl overdose, heart disease, lung disease, carbon monoxide poisoning. now we'll have to see if that strategy worked with any of the jurors. if it just worked with one, that's a mistrial. >> chuck, paul mentioned carbon monoxide. that was introduced by a defense expert. well, the prosecution brought in another witness, actually brought back a witness, dr. martin tobin, a pulmonologyist to refute that claim.
let's listen. >> as to the statement that his hemoglobin could have increased by 10.18%, that's not possible? >> it's simply wrong. >> and it was at most 2%? >> at most 2%. >> normal. >> which is normal. >> so, chuck, they're talk there about the oxygen saturation levels for george floyd at 98% saying it's normal, it's simply wrong that carbon monoxide killed him. so if you look at the core, it's that perhaps it was underlying health conditions or drugs that killed george floyd or that there was an angry threatening crowd around officer chauvin and somehow that compelled him to stay in that defensive crouch. have they made those connections well enough, in your judgment, for the jury to have some doubt about the guilt of officer chauvin here? >> i don't think so. i thought the case was logical and overwhelming.
look, the defense tried the angry crowd trope. and we saw the crowd, willie. we saw the crowd that the officers saw. they were upset, but they were upset because a man was being killed, murdered in front of their eyes. they weren't threatening the police. and oh, by the way, as the prosecution pointed out, the police on the scene didn't call for backup. they didn't feel that threatened. as to cause of death, look, i do think the defense did a better job here. i do think that they introduced or tried to introduce some doubt. the clip you just played of dr. tobin getting back on the stand in the prosecution's rebuttal case was done perfectly. it was short. it was to the point. it made the argument that the oxygen saturation levels were so high that it could not have been carbon monoxide poisoning. in fact, i remember dr. tobin saying that everybody in this room, referring to the courtroom in which he was sitting, has some amount of carbon monoxide
in their system, no different than george floyd did on the day that he died. and so i think the prosecution by far had the better of the arguments and the better evidence. it remains to be seen how the jury reacts to it. still ahead, 20-year-old daunte wright, who was killed by police during a routine traffic stop, new developments in that story, next on "morning joe." ent story, next on "morning joe. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. thank you! hey, hey, no, no limu, no limu! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ my plaque psoriasis... ...the itching ...the burning. the stinging. my skin was no longer mine. my psoriatic arthritis, made my joints stiff, swollen... painful. emerge tremfyant™ with tremfya®, adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis...
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a former police officer charged with second degree man slaughter in the shooting of daunte wright made her first court appearance yesterday. kim potter, a 26-year veteran of the brooklyn center police department took place in a teleconference. potter spoke only once to confirm that she was present. her next date is april 17th. the family of daunte wright held a press conference yesterday
calling for accountability. >> there's never going be justice for us. the justice would bring our son home to us, knocking on the door with his big smile coming in the house. justice isn't even a word to me. i do want accountability. 100% accountability. >> my son was very much loved. we loved him a lot. and the way he was killed, he did not deserve that. these young black men being killed, can you blame my son or anyone else from being scared of the police? >> justice, what is justice? do we get to see daunte smile? we don't get to see that. y'all see the difference. this is a taser. this is a taser. >> but no, my nephew was killed with this, a glock. >> the anguish, oh, my god.
it is such a tragedy. paul butler, was it unusual for the officer to be charged as quickly as she was charged? >> it was unusual that it happened within days of the event. often there is a long investigation. but this was an unusual case. taser mistakes has, but they're very rare. there's still questions that haven't been answered. how did this officer with 26 years of experience make this mistake? she was training other officers when she conducted this stop of mr. wright. the manual for her police department says that officers should not use tasers on people who are operating vehicles and they should aim for the lower body, not the head or the chest. mr. wright was in a car and he
was shot in his chest. >> this is the "new york times" reporter that this has happened before. it is uncommon, but those mistakes are made. i'm curious, if you're prosecutor in this case if you're looking at what happened, looked at her reaction, the reaction of the other police officers. when this trial, if this try is ever held and there's not a plea before, is this going be a more difficult case for the prosecution to put on than, say, obviously more than george floyd, but what happened and say charles stinn or some of these other cases? >> it will be because this is a split second decision. jurors tend to be sympathetic to police officers and sometimes think even if they made a
mistake, they were trying to do their job. that's why the chauvin trial is so different because officer chauvin had 9 minutes and 29 seconds to adapt, to think, and the prosecution wants the jury to think that he did not adapt in the way that his training and the criminal law requires. coming up, chairman of the dccc, congressman sean patrick maloney joins the conversation. we'll talk about the biden agenda, security on capitol hill and the money race for 2022. "morning joe" is back in a moment. 2. "morning joe" is back in a moment [sfx: psst psst]
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long time teleadvantage list pat robertson surprised just about everybody when he sounded off on the state of policing in america. after reporting on the killing of daunte wright, he did a demonstration on set showing the difference between a gun and a taser. he then said this -- >> i am pro police, folks. i think we need the police, we
need their service and they do a good job, but if they don't stop this onslaught, they cannot do this. the police in virginia picked up an -- and continued to give him trouble. our state police are highly trained. but why they don't stop this thing that's going on in minnesota, but derek chauvin, they ought to put him under the jail. he has caused so much trouble by kneeling on the death of george floyd. -- i mean on his neck. it's just terrible what's happening. and the police, why don't they open their eyes to what public relations are? they've got to stop this stuff. >> maybe they need more train, consistent training. >> i think the problem is you've got to pay them more. we don't have the finest in the police department. they're low paid people. they don't get adequate -- it's
not a question of training. it's a question of hiring a more superior workforce and we aren't doing it. but we need police. we need them and we need to honor them. and i'm all for it. but at the same time, we cannot have a bunch of clowns running around who are underpaid and who really are not the best and brightest. we've got to have the best in there. >> for people who don't appreciate how influential pat robertson is, the 700 club has been an institution across this country for many, many years and millions of people listen to the word of pat robertson talking about police there. he was referencing the stop of lieutenant nazario in virginia, as well, that was for what they thought was not displaying the tag. he did have a tag and it escalated to the point that he was sprayed and tased and daunte wright was stopped because he was expired tabs in his car and that ended in his death, of course. so the guess the question is of
escalation. why expired tags are leading to the deaths of young men in this country. >> well, ultimately, here is where we have to confront a problem that we've been avoiding for a long time. and that is the problem of anti-black racism, which i'll identify in this moment. and this is partly why brock lives matter as a movement has certainly, over the last couple of years, trying to get to get americans to understand that there is no value when it comes do black people's lives, when it comes to people of color in general, when police officers have encounters with folks who look like me. unfortunately, as we saw play out in the case of daunte wright, there is no sympathy, there is no understanding, there is just this person encountering an individual and being quite belligerent, not even attempting to de-escalate. and, again, an individual doing
this who has 26 years of experience. kim potter is the only evidence you need that so-called training is simply not going to cut it. it's not effective. and it's about time that we accept the reality that you can train and train and train all day, but at the end of the day, if someone is going to encounter someone who looks like me and come into the situation without valuing my life, guess what? the results will be the same. yeah. >> jon meacham for younger viewers who may not understand the import of pat robertson's statement, you and i, as southerners, know the cultural impact that he had across the south and the nation. my grandmother constantly had the 700 club on in her home in pensacola. it was a big part of southern culture. in 1988, pat robertson ran for president of the united states. he beat george h.w. bush in
iowa. and i believe bob dole, as well. and the republican party, as it looked throughout the 90s and beyond, was shaped in part by pat robertson, in part by pat buchanan. explain to our viewers that may not have groan up with the sound of relatives and friends home just how impactful that statement is coming from a conservative cultural icon like pat robertson. >> yeah. i would say for people seeing this and being dismissive about robertson because of his long history of remarks of activism, go grab a bible and google the -- or google the parable of the prodigal son. if somebody does something
right, you welcome it. and you welcome him. robertson was, in many ways, kind of the main -- kind of official embodiment of the rise of the religious right, which really began -- i think it began with the school prayer decision in 1962. it was slow in developing. a lot of white evangelicals stayed out of politics in the mid 1960s because they were uncomfortable with civil rights which was a space clearly associated with the black church. then, you know, jerry falwell was having breakfast in lynchberg, virginia, on january 23rd, 1973, opens the lynchberg newspaper and there were two stories. one was that lyndon johnson had died the day before and the other was that harry blackman in an opinion for the court had rendered a decision in roe versus wade. and falwell couldn't eat his
breakfast and felt this compulsion into the into the public arena. it intersected with the 1976 bicentennial, the patriotism surge with a religious conservative surge. by 1980, it's a key part of the republican base. and the triumph of ronald reagan over jerald ford and george h.w. bush in that era was a clear signal. then, as you say, eight years later, pat robertson, instead of having this influence on it decided he wanted to run himself. and a big michigan straw poll, it puzzled george h.w. bush. he thought ministers had a role, but shouldn't be running -- he was puzzling that they were running for office. what i think this tells us is that people who use the evidence of their eyes and are irvelthd
able to put aside a pre-existing prism and see things for what they are, and robertson is capable of saying something else today, so the prodigal son has a short effective dislike, there is the capacity for us to use, in religious terms, a god-given intelligence and to say what -- if you see it, say it. >> still ahead, one of our next guests was the only member of congress who refused to sign off on an open ended use of force in the days after 9/11. california democrat barbara lee joins the conversation straight ahead. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ahead. "morning joe" is back in a moment
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it's time for business before the bell. let's brink in dom chu. we got big news yesterday, man. this economy looks like it's start to go really turn around. so, here, we all know there are a lot of problems still left in the economy, but there are good signs out there, joe and mika, to your point. the point you're talking about is americans are filing first time unemployment benefits, they're dropping sharply now. 576,000. that's still a very high number, but it represents the lowest number of jobless claims since the early days of the pandemic last year. but those people who filed for jobless benefits for at least two weeks or more, it did hold relatively steady, 3.7 million.
those so-called continuing claims show the employment picture has a long way to go to get back to normal. but one thing we do know, americans are out there spending money again. the commerce department reported that retail sales surged by nearly 10% in march over february. that's the biggest one month over month gains since may last year and that's all because of the stimulus checks going out. that's a very big deal. >> and this is close to home for most of us. has been for quite some time. but we're based out of the new york area. this show is, even though we haven't been there for quite some time. we've heard this new york has been in miserable shape. and a lot of our friends saying you wouldn't recognize it. and yet even reports now that even though midtown is still quiet, that parts of new york
city are starting to come alive again and actually a lot of traffic, a lot of consumer traffic, as well. and some of these businesses are starting to make money, just like the airlines expect to be making money by mid summer. >> i mean, to your point, this -- and it's not just in new york city. we know that because we are there. you're in midtown, right? you're at 30 rock, you're seeing what's happening there. i'm in the suburban areas in new jersey and connecticut. if you look at the overall picture for the economy, we know the market and the economy are not the same thing. but we're talking about a scenario where the stock market hit a record high just in trading yesterday. the s&p 500 is already about 90% higher than it was at the depths of the pandemic last year. to your point, joe, a lot of the biggest things that have happened in the business reopening has come because of those beaten up sectors and industries pup mentioned airlines, cruise ship operators, hotel operators, restaurant
chains. a lot of them are doing well, as well. by the way, i would say this. i've been one of those folks who has been in the studio since march last year. and i've been driving. i pay for fuel. the one thing i do know is i pay a heck of a lot more for fuel right now than i did in april and may last career. so a lot of that reopening theme is developing because people are now starting to go out and do things again. by the way, also, joe, mika, delta airline sess basically saying that 85% of prepandemic leisure travel demand is where we're at right now. so that shows you maybe the worst of the pandemic, fingers crossed, is over. >> cnbc's dominic chu, thank you very much. nice news heading into the weekend. as democrats continue to push president biden's $2 trillion infrastructure plan, 44% support it in the latest quinn pea act poll while the latest npr/marice poll shows it
receives 56% support. joining us now, chairman of the dccc, congressman sean patrick maloney of new york. also with us, we have white house contributor sam stein and nbc news correspondent and host of "way too early" kasie hunt. kasie, in terms of the support for the plan, will there be republicans involved? >> well, it seems like there likely will be republican voters involved based on the numbers, but that's the strategy that the white house is using here. they're certainly, congressman, trying to at least demonstrate that they are reaching out to republicans in congress. i'd be interested to know if you think there are any republicans in the house who might be willing to go along with this. it seems like the answer we know in the senate is zero. so where does it stand on your side? >> well, let's find out. and i think you made a key point, which is that the president with ending the pandemic and growing the economy his priorities.
with these new democratic majorities on the hill that are willing to get results, we're going to find out who is interested in delivering and who just wants to fight. you know, governing is about more than attacking the other party. if the republicans want to get in this game, then they need to do so. and that means the whole thing. that means being responsible about how we pay for these investments, but getting the bill done because we've got to get this economy going again. >> sam stein is with us and has a question. sam. >> yeah, congressman, one of the interesting components that you're seeing in the polling is that the bill actually polls better when you tell voters or response that it's paid for with a corporate tax hike, that people actually do want to tax corporations in order to pay for this. obviously, this is the sort of contentious points from republicans. they don't want to raise a dime for corporate tax hikes. how big of a line in the sand do
you think this is and do you think eventually we'll get off the 28% line joe biden has started out and if so, where do we go in the process of negotiations? >> we know the priority for the republicans was to slash taxes for corporations down to 21%, to give huge tax breaks to the very wealthiest. what this new democratic majority is going to do is invest in working families. and we've done that with a rescue plan. the american jobs plan is going to do that by investing hundreds of billions of dollars in our infrastructure. and yes, we think corporations can help pay for it. right now, the biggest corporations are paying no taxes, nothing. and we think that's wrong. and we think it's a good plan to have some investments in american infrastructure and have corporations pay their fair share. they benefit from infrastructure improvements as much as the rest of us. and if the republicans can't stomach that, then it's more proof that this is not a serious governing party, that this is a party wrapped around the axle of
qanon conspiracy theories and is busy defending people like matt gaetz from sex trafficking charges and can't be bothered doing the hard work of governing our country. but we're going to do it and that's why i'm proud that the jobs man is front and center right now. >> a handful of liberal congressional democrats yesterday unveiled a proposal to expand the number of seats on the u.s. supreme court from 9 to 13. the judiciary act of 2021 is cosponsored by congressman jared nadler, hank johnson and mndaire jones along with senator ed markey. however, house speaker nancy pelosi said she has no plans to bring it to the floor, but added that president biden's announcement last week to have a commission study the court's structure was, quote, the right approach. congressman maloney, does this help or hurt democrats keep the majority in 2022? >> well, what the speaker is
saying is this democratic majority is laser focused on jobs and the economy and ending the pandemic. we are going to bring good health and good growth and good government. and i understand why people are upset that mitch mcconnell and donald trump jammed through a replacement for ruth bader ginsburg against their own precedent when they wouldn't even give mashg garland a hearing. so i understand why people are upset about that. but i think the speaker is dead on, that we are going to stay focused on jobs and the economy, delivering for the american people. this is a good way of looking at this issue of whether the supreme court is the right size. it has changed throughout american history. but we're not going to change our focus. >> there was quite a bit of commentary after the 2020 election that -- and analysis on the voting that one reason why democrats underperformed in the house races especially was because republican messages of defunding the police, cancel
culture, socialism did have an impact not just on white working class americans, but also across the board. i'm wondering how the messaging is going on counteracting those three attacks, which you're going on face again in 2022, and how would you counteract the attack against radical democrats packing the court, which i'm sure is the next attack that's going to be coming from republicans. >> well, i think i just addressed the court issue. but with respect to republican lies and demagoguery on an issue as important as racial justice, i hope we'll all just spend a moment and look at the trial that's going on in minnesota. look at the latest killing of daunte wright. look at what's happening in chicago. so here is what i've told my team. we're going to fight for racial justice. our colleague john lewis got his
head bashed in marching across a bridge. if somebody said, boy, you got hurt. you wouldn't fight for that? we know what his answer would have been. we know the other side has no come pungz about taking an issue like racial justice and trying to gain cheap political points by whipping up white resentment or by making common cause worse, by making a priority of racist voting laws in georgia, that's the choice. so we're going to fight for what's right and we're going to do it in a way that's smart and we're going to win these races because it's the moral imperative that we govern this country in a way that moves us forward and that doesn't take us back to the jim crow era. >> so what is the response to the attack of -- >> here is the response. >> you said a republican comes back and wants to defund the police. what do you say to that? >> my -- what i say is we're
fighting for racial justice. what are you fighting for? if you're fighting for racist voting laws in georgia, i'll have that conversation because we just kicked their butt all over georgia in the last election. so with all due respect, we won the white house, we won the senate, we held the house in a very difficult cycle. so i'd rather be us than them. if anybody is doing an autopsy s, it ought to be them. that's why they're deep in the minority because we're delivering for the american people because ultimately their path is a dead end. and it needs to be because the way is up. it is not back down into the ugliest racism and jim crow era laws that we've seen throughout our nation's history. so my argument is what are you doing about racial justice? and what do you say to the family of george floyd? and what do you say to the millions of americans who are crying out for a better country. you know, there is anguish for a reason and our party is going to
do something about it. we've passed the george floyd justice and policing act. what the hell is the republican party doing? so no, we're not going run away from fighting for racial justice. let's have that fight. >> right. yeah. and i'm not suggesting you should. so a couple of quick things, and forgive me for repeating the same question. but maybe i need to say it a different way. do democrats support defunding the police, first of all, and secondly, the political report said democrats lost 25 of 25 contested house races in 2020. and i think most analyses believe at least in the house races, democrats badly underperformed expectations. so address those two and, again, if you could specifically answer the question, again, it's not the question that i'm asking. it's the question that republicans will continue to ask, do democrats support defunding the police? >> right. the answer is no.
and you are asking the question and you're repeating a republican talking point for reasons i don't know. >> no, no, let -- no, let me tell you why. >> excuse me. i'm trying to answer your question. >> no. i'll tell you why i'm repeating it because you all did such a -- poor job of answering that, such a poor job of answering socialism ufl questions, such a poor job about answering cancel culture questions. that's why i'm repeating it because if you believe that kevin mccarthy should be speaker of the house, keep pretending that none of that happened and keep saying that the house did a good job in 2020 because they did not. house democrats did a poor job. so my question is are you going into 2022 with eyes wide open? >> right. so as my friend maxine waters said to jim jordan, you're ranting again. >> no, i'm not. >> allow me to answer the question. >> i don't care -- >> if you don't really care whether democrats win or not in 2022, okay.
let our viewers know that. >> yeah, that's what i said. how about you let me answer the question. the answer to the question is kevin mccarthy is the minority leader and we hold the gavels, joe. we just passed a $2 trillion rescue plan for the american people, we're about to invest muns of millions of dollars in american infrastructure. that's what winning looks like. can we learn from to 20? you bet. you didn't hear me say everything went well. what i told you is i'm not going to run the other way because on shows like this you insist on repeating these republican talking points when you know it's a lie that we don't want to defund the police. look at the george floyd -- >> i know it's a lie. >> the american rescue plan contains huge resources for our front line responders and our police. so we are literally the party funding the police. if your point is that we need to communicate better, fair enough. but do me a favor. please also acknowledge that when you echo and amplify these talking points of the republican party, you give them life. so that's what i'm trying to remind you of.
why don't you look at what we passed and be fair of that. >> i don't need -- i don't need that reminder. i have spent the last five years saying every day on this show that republicans are lying, that they're lying about democratic positions. i asked members that come on about defunding the police. i did it in realtime. i asked leaders of the democratic party if republicans are lying about them. i'm simply asking are democrats going to be prepared in 2022 to answer these lies? i'm not repeating lies. i'm not amplifying lies. i'm calling them lies and i'm curious, as are a lot of democrats and a lot of democratic activists and a lot of democratic doubters if democrats are going to be able to stop kevin mccarthy from being the next speaker of the house. >> the answer is yes, and the reason is because they're wrapped around the axle and we have been out and aggressive as
a party playing footsie with qanon conspiracy theorists, justifying matt gaetz's misconduct, defending members like marjorie taylor greene, who are confused about whether the plane hit the pentagon. look at the media campaign we launched, the most expensive, aggressive, earliest effort has ever been done. if all due respect, if i don't want to get on their side of the chess board and talk about what they say and i want to go out and talk about the american rescue plan, supporting our local communities, schools, safely reopening them, bringing life back to our economy together with the infrastructure investments we're going to make, that is why we're going to win this election. we are responsible adults delivering good government and economic growth and they are a party wrapped around the axle of danger and irresponsible elements. but i'm not going to stand here and kick around some stupid republican lie about our fight for facial justice, as though it's worth talking about.
and that's my point to you. >> my point to you is that donald trump and republicans said a lot of those offensive, racist lies over the past 4, 4 1/2 years. unfortunately, they did much better talking about those lies in swing districts in 2020. i hope you understand my questions -- >> they did so well in november that donald trump is down at mar-a-lago and the senate is in democratic hands and we're running the house. all due respect, like there's winning in politics and everything else. >> with all due respect, if democrats don't do better in 2022 then they did in 2020, my point is kevin mccarthy will be speaker of the house, jim jordan will be chairman of committees, and i think that's something that a lot of americans think is dangerous. congressman, thank you very much for being with us. >> you bet.
>> let's bring in barbara lee. barbara, thank you so much for being with us. we just had a fun conversation with sean. i'm sure sounds a lot like a democratic house caucus meeting. concerns from 2ki6r79 elements of the party. how do democrats make sure 2022 is a more effective campaign in pushing back against some of the republicans' most toxic lies. what are your thoughts? >> sure, joe, good morning. glad to be with you. first of all, let me just acknowledge the fact we have so many young people who have been involved in so many of our protests through the movement for black lives with our dreamers and this was a multiracial, multigenerational coalition that turned out last november and elected joe biden as our president. and so i think we have to continue to move forward and make sure that our agenda
continues to be evident, we have to continue to message the fact we're working for the people, delivering for the people, and we understand racial equity and racial justice have got to be a whole government approach where we keep the promises we made in terms of directing structure racism and providing equity in each and every policy not only the congress should move forward on but the white house embracing and leading on. >> you know, barbara, we've all heard an awful lot about hr-1. i'm curious what your thoughts are about hr-4. john lewis' bill, voting rights bill. i'm wondering whether that -- especially since the supreme court has been asking congress to move forward with an update on civil rights act, voting rights act, i'm wondering if hr-4 might be a better way to lead with congressman lewis' bill first? >> we have passed hr-1, which is
a very important bill to restore integrity to our elections and address the public financing of campaigns. it addresses voting rights and we're working now to make sure we pass hr-4. and i'm confident we're going to do that because we have got to have federal protection as it relates to our voting rights. we've seen these over 350 bills now that have been passed throughout the country to effectively deny african-american, people of color, senior citizens, young people, people in rural communities, the right to vote. so we have to pass hr-4 and we're working to make sure we get that passed and passed as quickly as possible. >> congresswoman, what are your thoughts about america leaving afghanistan 20 years after 9/11 now? >> joe, i tell you, i'm just very optimistic and very pleased
that the biden administration and our president joe biden has really indicated that we're going to begin to bring our troops home. you know, i did not vote for the authorization to use force right after the horrific events of 9/11 because i knew then it was a blank check to really justify military actions anywhere in the world. having said that, our troops have done exactly what we have asked them to do in afghanistan. we need to begin to bring them home as the president is going to do and employ and execute on our other tools in our toolboxes as related to diplomacy, investment, making sure that we protect women and making sure women's rights are part of the movement forward in terms of afghanistan and do everything we can do on the diplomatic and humanitarian assistance. but it's way past time to bring our troops home. we trained hundreds of thousands of security forces in
afghanistan and we owe them a lot and we're going to continue to move forward and use our diplomatic tools and our diplomacy efforts to make sure that we bring our troops home orderly and that we do everything we can do to help with afghanistan move forward peacefully. >> congresswoman, it's kasie hunt. i would like to bring the conversation back here because today marks 100 days since the siege of the u.s. capitol. quite frankly, in the last 100 days, the commission that had been planned to investigate what happened has been stalled. we haven't even seen the bill that's been worked on to pay for more security, more police officers, a hardening of the capitol. there's so much partisan argument going on about how to move forward from this. so can i just ask you, is this where you expect it to be 100 days after that building was invaded? and how are we going to make sure that this is actually
accounted for in our history books? >> sure. january 6th, let me tell you, i was on the floor. it was a harrowing experience. i was sitting right there. we had to evacuate and you know the stories of what took place that day. it was an attempted coup, it was an insurrection and in many ways a conspiracy by white supremacists and in fact domestic terrorism has been one of the biggest threats to our country. we've been trying to work with the republicans to move us forward and i tell you, we have to have this outside commission to conduct an investigation. but we are moving forward in terms of bringing forth measures to secure the capitol in a way where it's balanced in terms of public access and public safety. we have staff members. we have support staff. the capitol police did a phenomenal job. oftentimes during the attempted coup, especially many of the african-americans, capitol
police have had to fight just for their lives and beat back all of the horrible things that were taking place with them and all of our capitol police officers. so it's a very complex issue and we've got to do this and do it quickly and i hope the republicans will cooperate with our speaker and make this a bipartisan e6r9 because we are doing everything we can. we cannot let this happen again. it was an attack on our democracy, attack on the capitol and people died as a result. i'm very proud to be a plaintiff in the lawsuit against donald trump, rudy giuliani, the proud boys and the other insurrectionists who really promoted the insurrection. >> all right, congresswoman barbara lee, thank you r thank you so much. it's always great to see you and talk to you and hope to see you in washington soon. >> thank you. great talking to you and have a
great day. >> great having you here. sam stein, your final thoughts. >> on this friday morning. >> i have basketball on the show going on 12 years now. i remember the first time i was on the show and there was a mass shooting overnight we had to cover and it was aurora. i thought in the moment this was incredible and horrifying. this can't happen. i calculated this morning, i think i have been on the show five, six times and we wake up with an overnight and high-profile mass shooting we had to cover, today being i believe the sixth. and it just feels in a sad way so normal now. so part of our culture in a way that aurora never felt on that morning we work up and we had to cover it. it's a sad commentary where we are in society half a dozen times i have come on the show to talk about these things. >> it is sad and sickening and it is simply not enough to sit back and accept the status quo.